Noah gets constant praise---Omer, not so much ! WHY ???

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

I also think the summer off from International basketball will help. Many people who know him from Chicago and Houston have said he seems a little different here. He had no real offseason to relax and had a back injury early.

Look at what he has done since the AS break. Has looked like the guy we all fell in love with early in the year prior to the back injury.

Wouldn't be surprised if we hear after the year that he wasn't 100% but he played through it anyway.

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I hope so. Obviously this last game was a complete bust, but his prior games (post AS break) have been amazing. That's who I want. That (in my mind) is a top 10 center. That is a guy I would take shots from others in order to get him some touches. That's who we should all want, and expect. I hope it is reported that he was playing injured as that would give me a lot of confidence moving forward with his game. But the next question is, how do we keep him as close to 100% so that he is performing at his best? Is it giving him 30 min, and giving AA 18? Is it an even 24/24 split (because AA has shown he can handle things if it's the right matchup)?

I like where we are at the 5. I just want both guys to get better, and I am confident both can. One has problems above the neck, the other has problems below the neck, but if they were to combine there powers you would have the second coming of Rik Smits.

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Originally Posted by heybigmatt

there has to be a reason why probably every GM in the league prefers Noah over Asik, and I don't think yelling and screaming has to do with it, Noah is CLEARLY a better player.

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Other than your OWN perception, name one part of Noah's game thats better than Asiks . They have the exact same shot chart ! Noah hasnt made a shot from outside 3ft since college. Noah is a clutz . He shoots running half hook jumpers like someone having seizures.

Noah averages 7 pts per game on 43% shooting ! THAT IS AWFUL. Omer averages 7pts per game on 52% shooting .
They both average 10 rebounds per game. Asik is 61% FT, Noah is 65% .
Omer is 7ft, 265, Noah is 6'10 1/2 240 !
So, bigmatt, other thsn the INTANGIBLES that you have created. tell me again.Where is Noah's game better than Omer's.?
Is it the 43% shooting ? That must be it ?

Here's the ammo... Now fight!

http://stats.nba.com/vs/#!/?PlayerID...010&range=2014

(Sits back and watched the world burn)

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Originally Posted by Tinman

Other than your OWN perception, name one part of Noah's game thats better than Asiks . They have the exact same shot chart ! Noah hasnt made a shot from outside 3ft since college. Noah is a clutz . He shoots running half hook jumpers like someone having seizures.

Noah averages 7 pts per game on 43% shooting ! THAT IS AWFUL. Omer averages 7pts per game on 52% shooting .
They both average 10 rebounds per game. Asik is 61% FT, Noah is 65% .
Omer is 7ft, 265, Noah is 6'10 1/2 240 !
So, bigmatt, other thsn the INTANGIBLES that you have created. tell me again.Where is Noah's game better than Omer's.?
Is it the 43% shooting ? That must be it ?

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Why would I talk about my own perception when I can rely on every single GM in the game. They do a lot more work than me on this subject and know a whole hell of a lot more than everyone else here. Ill tell you this, ill take the pelicans lineup without ask and with noah and you can take Asik. I guarantee I win 7-9/10 games played. Ill take qpon off the team so the salaries even out. I don't think many people would say you would win. As a lot of people have explained, stats aren't everything, look at Qpon DC Norris Cole stats, they say these guys are average to below average players for there position. Good luck

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Originally Posted by Tinman

Other than your OWN perception, name one part of Noah's game thats better than Asiks . They have the exact same shot chart ! Noah hasnt made a shot from outside 3ft since college. Noah is a clutz . He shoots running half hook jumpers like someone having seizures.

Noah averages 7 pts per game on 43% shooting ! THAT IS AWFUL. Omer averages 7pts per game on 52% shooting .
They both average 10 rebounds per game. Asik is 61% FT, Noah is 65% .
Omer is 7ft, 265, Noah is 6'10 1/2 240 !
So, bigmatt, other thsn the INTANGIBLES that you have created. tell me again.Where is Noah's game better than Omer's.?
Is it the 43% shooting ? That must be it ?

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Might I add, Bigmatt>> Noah averages 31 minutes, not 35 ! Asik averages 26 minutes.. Noah has 91 TURNOVERS ! Omer has 56. Is that what makes Noah better? Just wondering: Is it Noahs lack of size, the horrible shooting average, his clumsiness or is it that hes committed almost twicw as many turnovers that makes Noah better than Omer?

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Originally Posted by UNO Gracias

I hope so. Obviously this last game was a complete bust, but his prior games (post AS break) have been amazing. That's who I want. That (in my mind) is a top 10 center. That is a guy I would take shots from others in order to get him some touches. That's who we should all want, and expect. I hope it is reported that he was playing injured as that would give me a lot of confidence moving forward with his game. But the next question is, how do we keep him as close to 100% so that he is performing at his best? Is it giving him 30 min, and giving AA 18? Is it an even 24/24 split (because AA has shown he can handle things if it's the right matchup)?

I like where we are at the 5. I just want both guys to get better, and I am confident both can. One has problems above the neck, the other has problems below the neck, but if they were to combine there powers you would have the second coming of Rik Smits.

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look at whom Asik has played since the all star break. I think the only center was Hassan Whiteside.

Just for all future fights/disagreements/debates:

'Stats aren't everything' does NOT equal 'Stats mean nothing'

Okay, carry on.

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Originally Posted by heybigmatt

Why would I talk about my own perception when I can rely on every single GM in the game. They do a lot more work than me on this subject and know a whole hell of a lot more than everyone else here. Ill tell you this, ill take the pelicans lineup without ask and with noah and you can take Asik. I guarantee I win 7-9/10 games played. Ill take qpon off the team so the salaries even out. I don't think many people would say you would win. As a lot of people have explained, stats aren't everything, look at Qpon DC Norris Cole stats, they say these guys are average to below average players for there position. Good luck

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BigMatt> I'm gonna start calling you strawman ! You have no idea what all the GM's are willing to pay.Complete conjecture.Your argument is based on the notion that you know how EVERY GM feels.That is JUST SILLY> You have this habit of guaranteeing things,based on results that havent happened yet.Thats so funny. So, again, instead of guaranteeing future results,based on your perception of how ALL GM's feel> Give me a intangible, other than "hes loud", that makes him better than Asik. Because his stats, alone, certainly dont show it.

Is Noah being loud the only reason he is better than Asik? Is that the argument?

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Originally Posted by heybigmatt

look at whom Asik has played since the all star break. I think the only center was Hassan Whiteside.

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BigMatt > You are CRUSHING your own argument! Noah plays in the East....Would you like to continueyour comparison of which guy plays the tougher centers every night? I will, if you want to.:hihi:

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Originally Posted by UNO Gracias

Is Noah being loud the only reason he is better than Asik? Is that the argument?

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No, the discussion, not argument is>
1) Noah shoots 43% as a Lay-up center----Asik shoots 52%
2)Noah has committed 91 Turnovers----Asik 56
3) Noah plays in the East
4) They both average 10 & 7, which makes Asik more efficient on offense
5) Noah is almost 2 inches shorter & 25 pounds lighter than Asik, w/ no statistical advantages! So, if you can show me 2-4 million bucks worth of intangibles, I'm all ears.. Groupthink is contagious & leaves the mind idling !

Can I offer an alternative opinion...

NEITHER Asik or Noah is worth $11m per year, and teams that invest that much money in players with the limitations that both have, do so at the expense of having the pieces on the bench or on the wing necessary to win championships.

How many teams have won a title paying 8 figures (or the equivalent at the time) to a center that has as limited a skill set as Omer and Noah?

I guess we think we can be the first...

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

Can I offer an alternative opinion...

NEITHER Asik or Noah is worth $11m per year, and teams that invest that much money in players with the limitations that both have, do so at the expense of having the pieces on the bench or on the wing necessary to win championships.

How many teams have won a title paying 8 figures (or the equivalent at the time) to a center that has as limited a skill set as Omer and Noah?

I guess we think we can be the first...

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Agreed! W/ cavaet..They are worth what the market will pay for them. But, Noah is as OVERRATED as they come. He does nothing better than good ! He is a terrible shooter---He is a below average FT shooter---His Turnover ratio is HORRIBLE & his defense is a bit above average, butnothing spectacular... Anderson Varejo is better than NOAH.

Just to keep pounding this so that people will be used to it by this summer:

11mil per year will be about 10-12% of the cap in all likelihood once spike hits (and when we are possibly contending)

That is equivalent to 7-8 mil now. If you are using 10-12% of your resources (and actually less than that, since we will be over the cap) on a guy getting 25 minutes, who is an elite rebounder, a good defender, and a dirty work guy, you are not "overpaying"

The Pels will be paying a guy who plays about 11% of all available minutes about 10% of their payroll. And in those minutes he will play, he will be above (perhaps well above) replacement level. There is no way that you can spin 11M a year as being an overpay IMO, based on where the cap is going.

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Originally Posted by Tinman

Agreed! W/ cavaet..They are worth what the market will pay for them. But, Noah is as OVERRATED as they come. He does nothing better than good ! He is a terrible shooter---He is a below average FT shooter---His Turnover ratio is HORRIBLE & his defense is a bit above average, butnothing spectacular... Anderson Varejo is better than NOAH.

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Sure. You are also worth what the market will pay. My house is worth what the market will pay. That's a truism that can be applied to anything.

But smart NBA teams trying to win championships don't commit that much money to players with that limited a skill set, especially at the center position because often they don't play in critical moments of the game.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Just to keep pounding this so that people will be used to it by this summer:

11mil per year will be about 10-12% of the cap in all likelihood once spike hits (and when we are possibly contending)

That is equivalent to 7-8 mil now. If you are using 10-12% of your resources (and actually less than that, since we will be over the cap) on a guy getting 25 minutes, who is an elite rebounder, a good defender, and a dirty work guy, you are not "overpaying"

The Pels will be paying a guy who plays about 11% of all available minutes about 10% of their payroll. And in those minutes he will play, he will be above (perhaps well above) replacement level. There is no way that you can spin 11M a year as being an overpay IMO, based on where the cap is going.

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Michael, agents will expect their clients to get more money based on the cap going up. If Dell can get Asik for present value of $7-8m, I don't think that's a problem. I think his agent will expect closer to $10m-$12m in current dollars. He's making $14m this year. You think he'll take significantly less real money next year?!

You're 100% correct though, if you can get him cheap, he's fine. But also remember if you're paying 10% of your payroll for a guy that plays 10% of available minutes and is a liability (on offense) for half those minutes... that takes away from the value. The argument that basketball is both sides of the court, is usually used to get folks to focus on what a player does on the defensive end, because fans/media often only pay attention to offense. But we should also be as critical of the Center who gives you NOTHING on offense as we would be of the guard who get's consistently targeted and abused on the defensive end.

We ran Aminu out of town for being an offensive liability. We should be just as critical of Asik's offense.

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

Sure. You are also worth what the market will pay. My house is worth what the market will pay. That's a truism that can be applied to anything.

But smart NBA teams trying to win championships don't commit that much money to players with that limited a skill set, especially at the center position because often they don't play in critical moments of the game.

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Other than Timmy, Boogie, Vucevic,the Gasol brothers & to a lesser extent B.Lopez >> I cant think of a center that isn't significantly insuffucient is several categories ! & Timmy,Pau & Vucevic are #4's at this point.

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

Michael, agents will expect their clients to get more money based on the cap going up. If Dell can get Asik for present value of $7-8m, I don't think that's a problem. I think his agent will expect closer to $10m-$12m in current dollars. He's making $14m this year. You think he'll take significantly less real money next year?!

You're 100% correct though, if you can get him cheap, he's fine. But also remember if you're paying 10% of your payroll for a guy that plays 10% of available minutes and is a liability (on offense) for half those minutes... that takes away from the value. The argument that basketball is both sides of the court, is usually used to get folks to focus on what a player does on the defensive end, because fans/media often only pay attention to offense. But we should also be as critical of the Center who gives you NOTHING on offense as we would be of the guard who get's consistently targeted and abused on the defensive end.

We ran Aminu out of town for being an offensive liability. We should be just as critical of Asik's offense.

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He is making $14 mil a year on a deal that was 3yr-$25 mil deal. So it was an average of $8.3 mil. Once the cap goes up, that $10-12mil that he gets will be equivalent to the $8mil he got in his last deal. That is all MM is saying, and to me he is definitely worth that amount.

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

Michael, agents will expect their clients to get more money based on the cap going up. If Dell can get Asik for present value of $7-8m, I don't think that's a problem. I think his agent will expect closer to $10m-$12m in current dollars. He's making $14m this year. You think he'll take significantly less real money next year?!

You're 100% correct though, if you can get him cheap, he's fine. But also remember if you're paying 10% of your payroll for a guy that plays 10% of available minutes and is a liability (on offense) for half those minutes... that takes away from the value. The argument that basketball is both sides of the court, is usually used to get folks to focus on what a player does on the defensive end, because fans/media often only pay attention to offense. But we should also be as critical of the Center who gives you NOTHING on offense as we would be of the guard who get's consistently targeted and abused on the defensive end.

We ran Aminu out of town for being an offensive liability. We should be just as critical of Asik's offense.

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How does Asik give us nothing on offense? He's low usage but scores at an efficient rate.

So let's all put it down here. Considering where the cap is going, what is the max contract you won't complain about when we resign Asik?

I will go 4/48

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Just for all future fights/disagreements/debates:

'Stats aren't everything' does NOT equal 'Stats mean nothing'

Okay, carry on.

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yes, stats do mean things

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Originally Posted by Tinman

BigMatt> I'm gonna start calling you strawman ! You have no idea what all the GM's are willing to pay.Complete conjecture.Your argument is based on the notion that you know how EVERY GM feels.That is JUST SILLY> You have this habit of guaranteeing things,based on results that havent happened yet.Thats so funny. So, again, instead of guaranteeing future results,based on your perception of how ALL GM's feel> Give me a intangible, other than "hes loud", that makes him better than Asik. Because his stats, alone, certainly dont show it.

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He was voted defensive player of the year and first team all defensive team twice, once by the coaches and once by writers-- looking at stats.

He averaged more assists and more steals.

Things that stats don't pick up are how many empty possessions Asik has contributed to-- ie blocked shots that had no chance to score in the first place-- Asik probably has his shot blocked at least three to four times per game on top of his turnovers that's about 5 -7 turnovers per game. On top of this, Asik provides no spacing which again is not represented by statistics. No defender has to guard Asik. It's not necessary. Thus, it clogs the lane for tyreke, jrue and Anthony davis.

This is so dumb it's ridiculous. any more brain busters? I've never said anything about Noah screaming and I don't post that often- like 193 times over the course of 5 years, so I don't know how you know what I'm like when I post. I just post when idiots say really dumb things to make sure they dont post again because this forum can be so freaking dumb sometimes. This argument is just like the, "jimmer is as good as Norris cole because their stats are the same" argument, which people actually believed and tried to make.

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Originally Posted by heybigmatt

He was voted defensive player of the year and first team all defensive team twice, once by the coaches and once by writers-- looking at stats.

He averaged more assists and more steals.

Things that stats don't pick up are how many empty possessions Asik has contributed to-- ie blocked shots that had no chance to score in the first place-- Asik probably has his shot blocked at least three to four times per game on top of his turnovers that's about 5 -7 turnovers per game. On top of this, Asik provides no spacing which again is not represented by statistics. No defender has to guard Asik. It's not necessary. Thus, it clogs the lane for tyreke, jrue and Anthony davis.

This is so dumb it's ridiculous. any more brain busters? I've never said anything about Noah screaming and I don't post that often- like 193 times over the course of 5 years, so I don't know how you know what I'm like when I post. I just post when idiots say really dumb things to make sure they dont post again because this forum can be so freaking dumb sometimes. This argument is just like the, "jimmer is as good as Norris cole because their stats are the same" argument, which people actually believed and tried to make.

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You are all over the map! How does Noah spread the defense? He shoots 43% from 3ft. Noah has double the amount of turnovers. & you post probables based on what you think would happen!

Once again,instead of filibustering & using causality instead of concrete stats (Because you told MM that stats do matter)Why dont you come up w/ a STAT(REAL STAT) that makes Noah better than Asik. Noah SHOOTS 43% from 3 feet & gets shots blocked continuously! I mean, really,how else can you shoot so horribly from 3ft.? 91 Turnovers to 56 ! Why would anyone come out and cover Noah? He cant spread the court > Hell, he cant spread the paint..

Noah IS NOT a better offensive player than Asik.
Noah does not Guard Gasol,Cousins,Chandler,Howard,Duncan,Canter,Bogut, Dea Jordan everynight ! So, comparing defensive prowess EAST vs WEST ! REALLY??

43% is what I call a bunch of empty possessions . Omer is 52%, so what the heck does getting a shot blocked mean? Noah gets his shots blocked continuously. 52-43/52-43/52-43 GET IT YET? They average the same amount of points & its 52-43 ! So,I ask you,which team scores more points per 100? Pelicans by 18 ~ Thats a lot!

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Originally Posted by heybigmatt

He was voted defensive player of the year and first team all defensive team twice, once by the coaches and once by writers-- looking at stats.

He averaged more assists and more steals.

Things that stats don't pick up are how many empty possessions Asik has contributed to-- ie blocked shots that had no chance to score in the first place-- Asik probably has his shot blocked at least three to four times per game on top of his turnovers that's about 5 -7 turnovers per game. On top of this, Asik provides no spacing which again is not represented by statistics. No defender has to guard Asik. It's not necessary. Thus, it clogs the lane for tyreke, jrue and Anthony davis.

This is so dumb it's ridiculous. any more brain busters? I've never said anything about Noah screaming and I don't post that often- like 193 times over the course of 5 years, so I don't know how you know what I'm like when I post. I just post when idiots say really dumb things to make sure they dont post again because this forum can be so freaking dumb sometimes. This argument is just like the, "jimmer is as good as Norris cole because their stats are the same" argument, which people actually believed and tried to make.

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Asik is take 5.2 shot attempts per game and shooting 52% from the field. It is literally impossible that he is getting blocked 3-4 times a game.

You don't like Asik? That's fine. Plenty of people don't because he isn't flashy and is a defensive player instead of offensive. But please don't make up stuff to try and bolster your argument.

The truth is he isn't nearly as bad as people make him out to be especially when you compare him with other centers out there. He's a tier 2 center in the league but everyone is complaining about him not giving tier 1 production.