Pelicans finalizing trade for Asik

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Originally Posted by Jabberwalker

Doesn't it make more sense that the defender of the center is able to stop Reke by staying near the basket than the small forward?
Per nbawowy while on the court at the same time Reke had .96 points per shot with Aminu on the floor with him and .92 with Stiemsma. With both off the floor he averaged 1.05. And like I've stated above, Asik is a worse shooter than Steimsma is.

The other part of the problem is we don't know who the small forwards we get are, but are we really going to be able to get good small forwards with zero money? Are they going to be shooters or will we have to roll out Aminu and Miller? Will we have to get bargain bin players from Europe or the D League? Or will we have to hope that Babbit learns to play the three better, at which point what does the significant upgrade at C mean if we just created another hole at SF?

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Doesn't matter. Like I said Asik will get you more offensive boards. Besides, most centers stay around the basket anyway. Dwight sure doesn't leave it. And besides, we will still be playing large stretches of the game with Ryno/AD (baring a trade).

When you look at Reke this year he was playing with backups and still managed to have good games. When you look at a fully healthy team I see no way he doesn't play better. Adding Asik won't change that.

The whole SF thing will work itself out. Heck, if we don't get one Reke will most likely be starting there.

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Originally Posted by Jabberwalker

I'm not arguing that AD will suffer because of Asik's presence near as much as Evans. It won't help AD though. If Ryno is on the floor instead of Asik, then one of the two are likely the case either:
A- Ryno's man (most likely a PF) is on the perimeter and whoever was guarding AD (likely a C) will easily be blown by because of AD's speed and size or
B- Ryno's man stays guarding the paint forcing the roster to adjust and leaving someone (likely Ryno) open for a three.
Now play that out with Asik. Either Asik leaves the pain, his defender doesn't care and will continue to guard AD meaning that AD will have to get by whoever picks him up from the pick and roll as well as Asik's man, or AD's passing is going to have to improve greatly to hit Asik in traffic if Asik stays near the basket, or Davis is going to have to take more jumpers (aka less high percentage shots).

Of course that scenario doesn't mean near as much as the Reke situation but everyone saying he'll just clean up Reke's misses isn't thinking about math.

Let's say we're a good rebounding team. Reke will struggle to get to the basket and will either turn the ball over or put up much worse shots than before. Although we just improved our chances of rebounding the ball, we still haven't put it in yet. Put backs are high percentage shots but now you have Reke shooting a low percentage at the hoop, say 40%, we get the rebound from his shots at the hoop 50% of the time (that's a ton), and make a tip in from those rebounds 70% of the time (again, a ton).

.6 (this is the percentage of the time he misses at the rim) x .5 (chance we get rebound) x .7 (times we get the ball in the hoop from the rebound) x 2 (what the points are worth) = 0.42 points per miss.

So now we increased his turnover rate while driving in traffic to get to the hoop for the .42 points per times he misses. Is that really worth it? Or would you rather have a cleaner drive, and cleaner look at the basket because a player who can stretch the defense is on the court?

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I would probably agree that Asik at center doesn't necessarily benefit Tyreke's driving game.

But his impact is going to be felt in so many different areas that I don't see his presence in the lineup as anything but a net positive.

Besides, assuming we keep Ryno, he'll be rotating in frequently if there isn't a big body/rebounder we need Asik to battle that night. That's going to open up the floor for Tyreke for stretches of the game.

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Originally Posted by Jabberwalker

I'm not arguing that AD will suffer because of Asik's presence near as much as Evans. It won't help AD though. If Ryno is on the floor instead of Asik, then one of the two are likely the case either:
A- Ryno's man (most likely a PF) is on the perimeter and whoever was guarding AD (likely a C) will easily be blown by because of AD's speed and size or
B- Ryno's man stays guarding the paint forcing the roster to adjust and leaving someone (likely Ryno) open for a three.
Now play that out with Asik. Either Asik leaves the pain, his defender doesn't care and will continue to guard AD meaning that AD will have to get by whoever picks him up from the pick and roll as well as Asik's man, or AD's passing is going to have to improve greatly to hit Asik in traffic if Asik stays near the basket, or Davis is going to have to take more jumpers (aka less high percentage shots).

Of course that scenario doesn't mean near as much as the Reke situation but everyone saying he'll just clean up Reke's misses isn't thinking about math.

Let's say we're a good rebounding team. Reke will struggle to get to the basket and will either turn the ball over or put up much worse shots than before. Although we just improved our chances of rebounding the ball, we still haven't put it in yet. Put backs are high percentage shots but now you have Reke shooting a low percentage at the hoop, say 40%, we get the rebound from his shots at the hoop 50% of the time (that's a ton), and make a tip in from those rebounds 70% of the time (again, a ton).

.6 (this is the percentage of the time he misses at the rim) x .5 (chance we get rebound) x .7 (times we get the ball in the hoop from the rebound) x 2 (what the points are worth) = 0.42 points per miss.

So now we increased his turnover rate while driving in traffic to get to the hoop for the .42 points per times he misses. Is that really worth it? Or would you rather have a cleaner drive, and cleaner look at the basket because a player who can stretch the defense is on the court?

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This is just a silly post that wasted 15+ minutes of your time. The simple solution is to keep either Davis or Ryno on the court when Reke is.
Tyreke averaged 15/5/5 with he and Ryno were both healthy and 20/6/5 when Reke and AD went on the incredible stretch through March and April. I'm not really sure what you're even arguing anyways.

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Originally Posted by Jabberwalker

I'm not arguing that AD will suffer because of Asik's presence near as much as Evans. It won't help AD though. If Ryno is on the floor instead of Asik, then one of the two are likely the case either:
A- Ryno's man (most likely a PF) is on the perimeter and whoever was guarding AD (likely a C) will easily be blown by because of AD's speed and size or
B- Ryno's man stays guarding the paint forcing the roster to adjust and leaving someone (likely Ryno) open for a three.
Now play that out with Asik. Either Asik leaves the pain, his defender doesn't care and will continue to guard AD meaning that AD will have to get by whoever picks him up from the pick and roll as well as Asik's man, or AD's passing is going to have to improve greatly to hit Asik in traffic if Asik stays near the basket, or Davis is going to have to take more jumpers (aka less high percentage shots).

Of course that scenario doesn't mean near as much as the Reke situation but everyone saying he'll just clean up Reke's misses isn't thinking about math.

Let's say we're a good rebounding team. Reke will struggle to get to the basket and will either turn the ball over or put up much worse shots than before. Although we just improved our chances of rebounding the ball, we still haven't put it in yet. Put backs are high percentage shots but now you have Reke shooting a low percentage at the hoop, say 40%, we get the rebound from his shots at the hoop 50% of the time (that's a ton), and make a tip in from those rebounds 70% of the time (again, a ton).

.6 (this is the percentage of the time he misses at the rim) x .5 (chance we get rebound) x .7 (times we get the ball in the hoop from the rebound) x 2 (what the points are worth) = 0.42 points per miss.

So now we increased his turnover rate while driving in traffic to get to the hoop for the .42 points per times he misses. Is that really worth it? Or would you rather have a cleaner drive, and cleaner look at the basket because a player who can stretch the defense is on the court?

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For Reke to shoot 40% at the hoop he would need for his % to decrease by 33%. Even if Asik is worse than Steamer, it's not by that much. There is NO possible way he shoots that low at the hoop. This past year he finished at the rim 60% of the time and that was with most of his minutes with backups and Steamer at C. This was the lowest % of his career. I do not see him with a healthy team becoming 33% less efficient than his least efficient year ever.

Asik doesn't necessarily need to score. He needs to protect the rim and grab rebounds.

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There's a reason the Rockets were seven points better per 100 possessions with him in the game than on the sidelines, according to NBA.com, and it's not because he's putting numbers on the board.

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http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2013/10/...ouston-rockets

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For the entire season Houston’s defense has been night and day with him on and off the floor. They give up 107.5 points per 100 possessions when he’s off and 101.5 when he’s on—a six point difference that ranges from what would be the third worst defense in the league to the 10th best.

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http://www.red94.net/omer-asik-defen...er-year/12127/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=8zeJFJfcNfM

Man. Dude should make our whole defense better.

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Originally Posted by i am cow lolz

This is just a silly post that wasted 15+ minutes of your time. The simple solution is to keep either Davis or Ryno on the court when Reke is.
Tyreke averaged 15/5/5 with he and Ryno were both healthy and 20/6/5 when Reke and AD went on the incredible stretch through March and April. I'm not really sure what you're even arguing anyways.

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So what you're saying is "your post is dumb, I don't get it"?
Okay.

Seems like most people still look at this as "Asik is a 75/100, Steamer was a 35/100 therefore we got an upgrade". It's not that simple. There are layers to this ish.

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Originally Posted by Jabberwalker

So what you're saying is "your post is dumb, I don't get it"?
Okay.

Seems like most people still look at this as "Asik is a 75/100, Steamer was a 35/100 therefore we got an upgrade". It's not that simple. There are layers to this ish.

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Asik is a 75/100. Steamer is a 35/100. There's not enough layers to make up that difference. Ever. In any kind of way.

The Salary is a layer (or so I am presuming that is one layer Jabber is talking about).

I have no problem paying Asik what we are this season. If it's a one year rental, then yeah there is a problem.

So we finally get a center that is a great rim protector and now we still have room to complain... idk what yall expect from the guy... this is a team that I think need a better coach.. I think this is a playoff team...

My question is what Asik will expect to get paid after this. I hope he doesn't think this 15 Million is his actual worth because of a stupid GM.

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Originally Posted by tyler

So we finally get a center that is a great rim protector and now we still have room to complain... idk what yall expect from the guy... this is a team that I think need a better coach.. I think this is a playoff team...

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I know right? We needed a defensive and rebounding center and got one of the best in the entire league and people are not happy. Its like needing a scorer in the wing and we get durant but people still don't like it.

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Originally Posted by Mythrol

Doesn't matter. Like I said Asik will get you more offensive boards. Besides, most centers stay around the basket anyway. Dwight sure doesn't leave it. And besides, we will still be playing large stretches of the game with Ryno/AD (baring a trade).

When you look at Reke this year he was playing with backups and still managed to have good games. When you look at a fully healthy team I see no way he doesn't play better. Adding Asik won't change that.

The whole SF thing will work itself out. Heck, if we don't get one Reke will most likely be starting there.

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Or? Why not Ryno?

Don't know if this is already mentioned, but trade machine is sort of useless right now because it still acts like we're in the last NBA calendar year, but also has Asik already on the Pelicans roster. So for isle trying to make deals work using trade machine, I wouldn't trust it.

[QUOTE=Jabberwalker;1226609]I agree with all your points but I never said he wasn't a fit defensively. Our defense has been terrible. He does help that. What doesn't make sense is the other end of the floor. Imagine, he has worse shooting numbers than Stiemsma did last year. If Steamer and Reke can't play together as it seems most have agreed, then why can Reke and Asik? I should have said in my original post that I am excited to see someone who actually knows how to set a pick.



I heard the argument that Dell seems to make moves just to make them and always disagreed. Trading Ryno now would make me rethink that.



This team as constructed,minus EJ would be great on paper. You'd hear no complaints so log as we still had money and resources to go after some SFs but we don't have a single one and we'll need at least two and now we're at the wrong end of the barganing table. Also, although our team looks good on paper, developing chemistry comes at the expense of painful losses. We aren't getting chemistry immediately. We're going to have to develop it through time. A monkey wrench just got thrown into the little chemistry we developed last season, and in the very difficult West where we still probably don't make the playoffs, we just threw all our resources at a guy we have no guarantee will be here afterward.

Also, you really think Monty doesn't play Asik at the end of games? I know that harping on Monty is worn out, but we've all seen his feelings about having a bruiser. He's been begging for one. You think he won't play Asik more than we think he should? On paper our team looks great, but there are so many ulterior factors that can and most likely will prevent it from reaching it's potential."

There are no teams where every player on the floor can stretch you out. Tyreke got into trouble when he had to play w/ Aminu/Stiemsma, Aminue/Withy, Aminu/Ajinca, Withy/Stiemsma, etc. With this new set of bigs, Tyreke should have at least either Ryno or AD on the floor at all times. That will allow us to stretch the floor. That, along with a wing who can hit the corner 3, will be enough. Having Aminu at the 3 is what kills you. I always thought he was better suited as a small-ball 4, but when he is playing the wing they just clog everything up. Asik may not space the floor with his skill set, but he creates space through picks, boxing out, grabbing rebounds, etc. Tony Parker isn't a great shooter, but the presence of Splitter never seemed to hinder him getting to the rim.

Asik won't finish games. AD/ryno will. No doubt in my mind.

If Steamer is a 35/100, ASik is a 11000000000/100.

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Originally Posted by DRDJ1

Or? Why not Ryno?

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Ryno is not a SF. He has played less than 1% of his minutes there in 6 years in the league. It's not an option.

The hell is this about ryno playing sf? Already the third or so time i've read it, it's growing scary

Remember when we had Chandler playing with CP3 and David West and his lack of offense didn't get in the way of our offense still performed splendidly because we had CP3 and DX?

Well, we don't have CP3, but we have plenty of offensive weapons where this Asik expirement should go off without a hitch.

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Originally Posted by Mythrol

Ryno is not a SF. He has played less than 1% of his minutes there in 6 years in the league. It's not an option.

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Just saying how much of a difference is there between a "Stretch" four, "Stretch" forward or cornerman?
Think he could when AD, Jrue, Tyreke and the "Istan"bull" are also on the court because Jrue and Tyreke are oversized defensive minded guys and AD and Asik can cover a lot of Ryno's defensive liabilities:

http://www.rantsports.com/nba/2012/1...-at-the-three/
http://www.bourbonstreetshots.com/20...ign-and-trade/

So the counter argument is that because Asik is better than Steimsma then this was a good move?
Just because it is an upgrade doesn't make it a good move.
Let's just say that we gave Gordon Hayward the same contract. He is a terrible fit. He needs the ball to score. He isn't the rebounder or shooter we need. Yet is he an upgrade over Aminu? of course. Would it be a good move? No.

You guys seem to see it as Asik vs Steamer. I see it as getting Asik, changing how we run our plays, likely losing Rivers or (more likely Ryno) unless Dell pulls out a miracle and trades Gordon for less money, while putting himself at a disadvantage for bargaining (because the teams now KNOW we need to dump salary, instead of getting less of a player like Okafor, Dalembert, Blatche, or Hill, having more money for the TWO small forwards we still lack, and keeping the little bit of chemistry we did have.

And again, of course we'll see what Demps does. If that Minny trade is real and he pulls the trigger (how could he not) and we manage to save enough money to stil have the MLE and pay someone like Tucker, then I'm happy, though still worried that Monty plays Asik far too much than he should.

Real quick as well, many of the arguments I'm getting back aren't exactly cordial. I'm just trying to have a conversation. I'm not trying to troll the board, I'm not trying to aggravate anyone or have hostility but the moment when I people aren't welcome to demonstrate a different line of thought than whatever MM says without receiving a ration of **** is the death of this board.

I didn't like a lot of what studentofthegam (I still laugh at gam. I always think of the slang term "gams" and imagine that he just really loves studying legs) was saying or how he went about it but a lot of what he said was a disagreement of the Pels' direction. Tron's thoughts on AD, and my thoughts on the Asik trade were all met with hostility and the common thread between the three lines of thought is that we disagreed with the positive outcome of the Pels. If all we're doing here is talking up our team without accepting anything negative then you'll develop extreme expectations that will lead to more over-reactive backlash like the whole "Fire Monty" thing this last year.

There are other ways to space an NBA floor without having stretch 4's on the court all the time. Parker despite not being much of an outside threat (like Tyreke) had plenty of space to operate while running an offense with 2 traditional bigs most of the time (Duncan/Splitter).

Clippers, Rockets, Raptors, Knicks, and our own Pelicans had above average ORtg's last season despite issues with more than one player unable to consistently space the floor.

e: The T'Wolves, too. Rubio is hideous from any range.

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Originally Posted by Jabberwalker

Real quick as well, many of the arguments I'm getting back aren't exactly cordial. I'm just trying to have a conversation. I'm not trying to troll the board, I'm not trying to aggravate anyone or have hostility but the moment when I people aren't welcome to demonstrate a different line of thought than whatever MM says without receiving a ration of **** is the death of this board.

I didn't like a lot of what studentofthegam (I still laugh at gam. I always think of the slang term "gams" and imagine that he just really loves studying legs) was saying or how he went about it but a lot of what he said was a disagreement of the Pels' direction. Tron's thoughts on AD, and my thoughts on the Asik trade were all met with hostility and the common thread between the three lines of thought is that we disagreed with the positive outcome of the Pels. If all we're doing here is talking up our team without accepting anything negative then you'll develop extreme expectations that will lead to more over-reactive backlash like the whole "Fire Monty" thing this last year.

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Personally, I love differing opinions - and I laugh at the idea that I am the consensus on this board. I feel like people come at me just as hard as anybody, if not harder. But we probably all feel that way.

I think people here bash the team a lot. I think the Asik trade and AD are two of the rare instances where there is almost universal agreement. I dont think its the norm at all.