AD trade scenarios...

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Originally Posted by msusousaphone

Uptownfuzz has the pulse of it.

You can pretty much tell the bias of a person based on their opinion of Kuzma. It's irrational to deny his game.

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What is irrational is to look at a stat sheet and make a declaration that a guy is a stud. That ignores his BBIQ, his lack of defense and his terrible shot selection. Many claim he is a great shooter when he is not. He can be a pretty good bench player, but to claim he is some stud is off base. His best value right now is his low cost controlled contract. He has stuffed a stat sheet on a terrible team.

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Originally Posted by Primetime

Outside of the draft pick, Kuzma is arguably the best part of the Laker deal. He is on the books for 1.6 mil for a few more years. I get it, he ain’t great. But he’s the sure fire one who you know will outplay his contract. Like there’s a zero percent chance he doesn’t outplay his contract. You can’t say that for the others.

Ball is nice cause he can run an offense and solid D but the minute you’re in a playoff game, he can’t be on the court cause of his free throw shooting. That will severely stifle his value to the team. He’s not been embarrassed by it yet cause he hasn’t been in a big game. Not to mention that realistically, we are at such an important time in the franchise’s history, that I’m not sure you can roll the dice on dealing with Lavar. We need a young team with zero distractions. That’s a land mine of a distraction.

Ultimately, I think the Laker deal is contingent on how the Pels draft board is stacked. If Culver or Garland or other random prospect is ranked #2 on the board, then the Laker deal is fine. You get financial flexibility, and you’ve bought low on multiple prospects. Chances are one of them is better than they seem.

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Ball has two more seasons on his rookie deal. If we're in the playoffs and he's our starting point guard during that time, we've won the deal. If teams have to resort to "hack-a-Lonzo", that means we're leading or in a competitive series. It also means we get to the bonus faster.

Three PGs are going to get drafted in the lottery this year. Depending on who you trust, there are as many as 7 PGs projected in the lottery for next year. If Ball is as limited after the next 2 years as some expect, his next contract will average less than $10-12m. He'll get a Van Vleet or Smart type deal, and for what he does well, that would be a good deal. If he improves... that's a good problem to have.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

What is irrational is to look at a stat sheet and make a declaration that a guy is a stud. That ignores his BBIQ, his lack of defense and his terrible shot selection. Many claim he is a great shooter when he is not. He can be a pretty good bench player, but to claim he is some stud is off base. His best value right now is his low cost controlled contract. He has stuffed a stat sheet on a terrible team.

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This is exactly my point! If it's "bias", then show me where I'm wrong. Kuzma scores a lot on a bad team. He isn't efficient. He's a 30% three point shooter. He shoots 60% from the FT line. He doesn't really rebound that well for a 6'9 guy. His VORP, PER, BPM, Net Rating, and WS/48 are all below average at best and terrible in some places. He doesn't play D, and he's not a smart offensive player off ball.

Yet because he averaged like 18 points this year, we're supposed to ignore all of that and if we point it out, we're showing our "bias".

If any of that is wrong, show where it's wrong. But just sticking your fingers in your ears and claiming bias to dismiss all criticism is kind of lame.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Tell me what Kuzma does on a very high level.

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Your most recent hyperboles have been "trash" and "hot garbage". The onus isn't on proving him to be "high level", it's simply in showing the ridiculousness of your claims. I have used the verbiage "stud" and "can't deny his game". Those don't equate to very high level. Just good.

Every time we discuss it, the people who hate the Lakers players get more and more ludicrously away from reality. When you began your stance on even ground, it was probably rational. Now it's ballooned to a point it just doesn't fit the real world.

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Originally Posted by msusousaphone

Your most recent hyperboles have been "trash" and "hot garbage". The onus isn't on proving him to be "high level", it's simply in showing the ridiculousness of your claims. I have used the verbiage "stud" and "can't deny his game". Those don't equate to very high level. Just good.

Every time we discuss it, the people who hate the Lakers players get more and more ludicrously away from reality.

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Tell me what he's good at. Just saying "oh he's a stud" doesn't MEAN anything.

Is he good at shooting? No. Is he a very good passer? No. Does he rebound well? Not really. Is he a Harden-esque free throw machine? No. Is he a killer cutter? No. Does he play strong defense? No.

What does he do? Stop with "he's a stud" and "can't deny his game". What IS his game that I'm apparently denying? What is it that he is good enough at for you to see him as a viable, large piece in an AD trade?

If teams play hack a Lonzo we lose. His FT shooting is worse than Shaq’s.

Lonzo- 41% free throw shooter
Kuzma - 60% free throw shooter
Zion - 60% free throw shooter
Ingram - 67% free throw shooter.

Having these guys as the major focuses of our team is asking to lose games on the free throw line. Obviously there can be some improvement, especially for Zion who has never played in the NBA as of this point, but generally FT shooting is pretty consistent.

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Originally Posted by UNO Gracias

If teams play hack a Lonzo we lose. His FT shooting is worse than Shaq’s.

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Cause Shaq loss a lot...

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

Cause Shaq loss a lot...

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Lonzo shoots more like Andre Drummond (Drummond's first four years: 38%, Lonzo: 41%)

And Drummond's done a lot of losing. Guess which one Lonzo's career win rate looks more like right now?

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

Cause Shaq loss a lot...

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Lonzo isn’t in the same stratosphere as Shaq. Lonzo would be a major liability in certain games.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Lonzo shoots more like Andre Drummond (Drummond's first four years: 38%, Lonzo: 41%)

And Drummond's done a lot of losing. Guess which one Lonzo's career win rate looks more like right now?

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Tbf I still love Drummond. But he is certainly a liability in many situations.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

What is irrational is to look at a stat sheet and make a declaration that a guy is a stud. That ignores his BBIQ, his lack of defense and his terrible shot selection. Many claim he is a great shooter when he is not. He can be a pretty good bench player, but to claim he is some stud is off base. His best value right now is his low cost controlled contract. He has stuffed a stat sheet on a terrible team.

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To go further of your point, looking at his stats considering both his nba and college averages Kuzma is a 15-20 point guy, shoots about 30% from 3, about 45% FG, 2-3 assists a game, and about a 70% FT shooter. These are average stats of many many many players in the league we can pick up at any time in free agency now or in the future for a decent price. If the focus of anyone's trade is Kumza you really have to look at the big picture.

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

If teams have to resort to "hack-a-Lonzo", that means we're leading or in a competitive series. It also means we get to the bonus faster.

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It's impressive that you're trying to argue that Ball's lack of ability to make a free throw is an advantage for the Pelicans.

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Originally Posted by Primetime

It's impressive that you're trying to argue that Ball's lack of ability to make a free throw is an advantage for the Pelicans.

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It’s a bold move for sure.

Having 4 guys who all shoot below 68% from the free throw line will be hard to watch in the crunch.

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Originally Posted by Primetime

It's impressive that you're trying to argue that Ball's lack of ability to make a free throw is an advantage for the Pelicans.

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The mental gymnastics are astounding.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

The mental gymnastics are astounding.

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Man, not a dang one of those guys is a shooter either (well Ingram is), so that kills spacing.

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Originally Posted by JJackisangry

Tbf I still love Drummond. But he is certainly a liability in many situations.

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I also think Drummond has some value. He does still shoot a very high percentage from the floor, he's still a fantastic rebounder on both ends, he's actually a better defender than most people give him credit for, and he's expanded his range from ''only at the rim'' to ''he can make a little 8 foot shot'' which isn't great but is at least something.

Definitely a liability though, sometimes. 23 missed FTs in a single game is painful.

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Originally Posted by UNO Gracias

Man, not a dang one of those guys is a shooter either (well Ingram is), so that kills spacing.

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Ingram is a career 32% three point shooter. He isn't a shooter, by any means. He sometimes gets hot, like a lot of players do, but he is no sniper or floor spacer.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Lonzo- 41% free throw shooter
Kuzma - 60% free throw shooter
Zion - 60% free throw shooter
Ingram - 67% free throw shooter.

Having these guys as the major focuses of our team is asking to lose games on the free throw line. Obviously there can be some improvement, especially for Zion who has never played in the NBA as of this point, but generally FT shooting is pretty consistent.

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It is obvious the lack of shooting on Lakers have been their downfall. We should stay away.

If Zion needs shooters around him, you don’t go and trade AD for guys who aren’t shooters or else Zion will not reach his potential.

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Originally Posted by Darkhorse985

It is obvious the lack of shooting on Lakers have been their downfall. We should stay away.

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I couldn't agree more

What is interesting is the Lakers had a -1.7 point differential to end the season. Some rough math shows their starting line up averaged in the low to mid 60s in free throw %. Few more made free throws wouldnt of hurt them unless you account for them not making the playoffs and winning a lottery ball.

https://syndication.bleacherreport.c...ffers.amp.html

More i think about it. It really a 2 man race with the Knicks and Celtics.

Knick is a long term conservative build
Celtics is an aggressive win culture change. Not a win now mindset.

Laker is throwing **** at the wall and seeing if it sticks build.

Did a little more research on the season's free throw rankings. The lakers finished 2nd to last with a 69.9% free throw percentage. The worse team was miami with 69.5%. The best team was San Antonio 81.4%, Toronto with 80.9%, and Golden State with 80.7%. Our home town heros finshed with 76.1%.

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Originally Posted by Pels4Life

Did a little more research on the season's free throw rankings. The lakers finished 2nd to last with a 69.9% free throw percentage. The worse team was miami with 69.5%. The best team was San Antonio 81.4%, Toronto with 80.9%, and Golden State with 80.7%. Our home town heros finshed with 76.1%.

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So what you're telling me is that, and correct me if I'm wrong here...

Good teams hit their free throws? Is that what you're saying?

I mean, it sounds intuitive, but I got told earlier that missing free throws was a good thing.

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

Cause Shaq loss a lot...

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So we're getting Kobe to help?

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

So what you're telling me is that, and correct me if I'm wrong here...

Good teams hit their free throws? Is that what you're saying?

I mean, it sounds intuitive, but I got told earlier that missing free throws was a good thing.

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ok that made me laugh :hihi:

Celtics post trade would be funny looking

Rozier
???
Hayward
AD
AL

THAT IS A WEIRD LINEUP.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

So we're getting Kobe to help?

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Nope, we're getting prime Wade.

Don’t forget we have Mr. Davis(The father) saying his son will not play in Boston.

So. Setting that mess aside.

I know it's just Fletch.....but how does everyone grade his prophecied Celts deal?

AD

For

Tatum
Smart
Filler player (Willians, Ojeyele, Yabusele)
And only the 2019 #14 pick


The verbiage he uses is "at least the #14 pick" but that smacks to me like not a whole lot more.

How would you like that?

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Originally Posted by 13 - 3

Don’t forget we have Mr. Davis(The father) saying his son will not play in Boston.

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He'll play, but he'll take games off for chest contusion, sprain pinky, and headaches.

You know... What's he has been doing for the past 7 years.

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Originally Posted by msusousaphone

So. Setting the that aside.

I know it's just Fletch.....but how does everyone grade his prophecied Celts deal?

AD

For

Tatum
Smart
Filler player (Willians, Ojeyele, Yabusele)
And only the 2019 #14 pick


The verbiage he uses is "at least the #14 pick" but that smacks to me like not a whole lot more.

How would you like that?

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It's the initial trade offer. We haven't got into the bidding war phase, yet.

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Originally Posted by Taker597

It's the initial trade offer. We haven't got into the bidding war phase, yet.

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Cool deal, guy. Glad we have insiders to tell us what's actually going down. But since I didn't say that I thought
it was what we were accepting......how would you grade just that?

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Originally Posted by msusousaphone

Cool deal, guy. Glad we have insiders to tell us what's actually going down. But since I didn't say that I thought
it was what we were accepting......how would you grade just that?

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Well, it's a Fletcher source. So, we are splitting hairs on validation of credibility.


Still Probably the best offer so far. I don't think the teams involved in the trade discussion can offer a better player on paper than Tatum.

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Originally Posted by Taker597

He'll play, but he'll take games off for chest contusion, sprain pinky, and headaches.

You know... What's he has been doing for the past 7 years.

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His dad will try to get deal vetoed . This guy is more dangerous than his agent

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Originally Posted by 13 - 3

His dad will try to get deal vetoed . This guy is more dangerous than his agent

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Vetoed by the incredible, enormous power of someone who isn't actually an official in either organisation, nor the NBA head office, in any capacity.

If Boston is willing to do the trade, and Griffin is willing to accept it, then what Davis, Rich Paul, Davis' dad, Davis' greengrocer, Rich Paul's manicurist, and Windhorst all want is completely irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Vetoed by the incredible, enormous power of someone who isn't actually an official in either organisation, nor the NBA head office, in any capacity.

If Boston is willing to do the trade, and Griffin is willing to accept it, then what Davis, Rich Paul, Davis' dad, Davis' greengrocer, Rich Paul's manicurist, and Windhorst all want is completely irrelevant.

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Thank god Stern retired

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Originally Posted by Taker597

Well, it's a Fletcher source. So, we are splitting hairs on validation of credibility.


Still Probably the best offer so far. I don't think the teams involved in the trade discussion can offer a better player on paper than Tatum.

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I agree Tatum is a potential star however looking at the knicks trade comparison we could draft RJ who will be competitive if not better then Tatum. You also have to look at the potential pairing of Zion and RJ. Looking beyond that the potential for a 2020 and 2021 picks that Knicks and Celtics have offset each other in some degree as its all a crap shoot on rookies. It appears to me it boils down to do you want RJ or do you want Tatum.

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Originally Posted by msusousaphone

The verbiage he uses is "at least the #14 pick" but that smacks to me like not a whole lot more.

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How so? All I get is at least #14 and something more. Regardless, if the Memphis pick is included, I think it is a slam dunk. If not, then Brown should be included. When it is all said and done, the final trade from whatever team is probably something none of us would guess.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

How so? All I get is at least #14 and something more. Regardless, if the Memphis pick is included, I think it is a slam dunk. If not, then Brown should be included. When it is all said and done, the final trade from whatever team is probably something none of us would guess.

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The memphis pick as in their 1st round #2 pick?

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Originally Posted by Pels4Life

I agree Tatum is a potential star however looking at the knicks trade comparison we could draft RJ who will be competitive if not better then Tatum. You also have to look at the potential pairing of Zion and RJ. Looking beyond that the potential for a 2020 and 2021 picks that Knicks and Celtics have offset each other in some degree as its all a crap shoot on rookies. It appears to me it boils down to do you want RJ or do you want Tatum.

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The big question to me is if you think RJ can be part of the offense or not. What makes Tatum so valuable is that he can fit into almost any system. RJ... well it remains to be seen. He likes A LOT of the ball and I’m not sure he’d succeed off the ball (not saying it’s an impossibility, but I have my worries). That may be okay depending on who else we bring in. I’d reckon we’d need to bring in a shooter or two.

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Originally Posted by JJackisangry

The big question to me is if you think RJ can be part of the offense or not. What makes Tatum so valuable is that he can fit into almost any system. RJ... well it remains to be seen. He likes A LOT of the ball and I’m not sure he’d succeed off the ball (not saying it’s an impossibility, but I have my worries). That may be okay depending on who else we bring in. I’d reckon we’d need to bring in a shooter or two.

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We would definitely need shooters. That's why in free agency, although both are long shots, I'd be interested in Brogdon and Bogdanovic. Brogdon fits longer term as well. Bogdanovic is a stop-gap solution because of his age, but he's a legit sharpshooter and would help a lot while we try and find a longer term option.

It's also why I'm open to, even if we get the #3 pick, selecting Culver instead of Barrett. His ceiling is lower, I think, but not by much, and his IQ and the smoothness of his game is something that can't really be taught.

I remember watching a thing about Stockton a while ago, and Danny Ainge was in it and he said ''you can't teach what Stockton can see''. That's something I think about a lot when evaluating prospects: what can be taught, and what can't. Work ethic, IQ, feel, anticipation, vision: those things can't be taught. You either have them or you don't.

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Originally Posted by Pels4Life

I agree Tatum is a potential star however looking at the knicks trade comparison we could draft RJ who will be competitive if not better then Tatum. You also have to look at the potential pairing of Zion and RJ. Looking beyond that the potential for a 2020 and 2021 picks that Knicks and Celtics have offset each other in some degree as its all a crap shoot on rookies. It appears to me it boils down to do you want RJ or do you want Tatum.

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Plus the PG Smith Jr and C Robinson have a ceiling as future all stars in my opinion. Three good young starters for AD is a good haul

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

Plus the PG Smith Jr and C Robinson have a ceiling as future all stars in my opinion. Three good young starters for AD is a good haul

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Don't see it with DSJ, but I do see that caliber of player as possible for Robinson. I don't think he will actually make allstar teams because defense generally doesn't get you there, and that's his real strength, but I could see a couple of all-defensive teams without much problem.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

We would definitely need shooters. That's why in free agency, although both are long shots, I'd be interested in Brogdon and Bogdanovic. Brogdon fits longer term as well. Bogdanovic is a stop-gap solution because of his age, but he's a legit sharpshooter and would help a lot while we try and find a longer term option.

It's also why I'm open to, even if we get the #3 pick, selecting Culver instead of Barrett. His ceiling is lower, I think, but not by much, and his IQ and the smoothness of his game is something that can't really be taught.

I remember watching a thing about Stockton a while ago, and Danny Ainge was in it and he said ''you can't teach what Stockton can see''. That's something I think about a lot when evaluating prospects: what can be taught, and what can't. Work ethic, IQ, feel, anticipation, vision: those things can't be taught. You either have them or you don't.

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It’s the curious case of Jrue Holiday that hurts RJ’s stock a bit with us. There is no reason why Jrue should be averaging less than 35 percent from 3. Everything about him looks smooth as a player. So unless RJ and/or Jrue took a step with their 3 balls, I can see them being a poor fit. On one hand, I like RJ’s ability to play a bit of point-forward. On another, we’d still be without a real floor general and lack spacing.

Also, I can see Culver being a good fit. I’m really curious to see if he is on Griffin’s radar ahead of others though.

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Originally Posted by Pels4Life

The memphis pick as in their 1st round #2 pick?

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The one that Boston owns. 2020 top 6 protected, 2021 unprotected (if not conveyed in 2020).

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Originally Posted by Pels4Life

I agree Tatum is a potential star however looking at the knicks trade comparison we could draft RJ who will be competitive if not better then Tatum. You also have to look at the potential pairing of Zion and RJ. Looking beyond that the potential for a 2020 and 2021 picks that Knicks and Celtics have offset each other in some degree as its all a crap shoot on rookies. It appears to me it boils down to do you want RJ or do you want Tatum.

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I actually like Knicks trade the most. RJ and Zion gives us insurance if one of them bust. Plus, we need to develop these guys. So, I'm not in a big hurry for a 1st round exit in Zion rookie year.

Have two players that played on the same
College team , and of the same caliber as Zion and RJ, ever played on same NBA team straight out of college?


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Keeping in mind. We invented those trades. You can say "I like this package" a thousand more times but it doesn't make it any more real. Those are all speculations and the probable is that the best offered won't be all that you are thinking.