Draft Prospects Discussion

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Originally Posted by luckyman

If Dunn isn't there I'd be happy f they dropped a few spots and took Luwawu. Don't be shocked if he goes higher than these mocks have him. As is usually the case when it comes to the NBA draft.

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I would love Luwawu I think he goes top 8 but we would never pick a guy like that. Ben, Ingram, Dunn, and Luwawu are my top 4 prospects.

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Originally Posted by David Fisher

Prospect A:

6'10.75" wingspan
8'6" standing reach
32" max vertical
.462/.444/.853
127.2 ORtg

Prospect B:

6'9" wingspan
8'7.5" standing reach
31.5" max vertical
.436/.398/.838
109.8 ORtg

Don't click on the links and guess who A and B are.

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Klay Thompson is an all world shooter.

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Originally Posted by HoustonPelicans

Klay Thompson is an all world shooter.

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Now he is.

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Originally Posted by HoustonPelicans

Klay Thompson is an all world shooter.

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As a prospect Valentine is a better shooter.

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Originally Posted by David Fisher

As a prospect Valentine is a better shooter.

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Who is better defensively?

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Originally Posted by HornetGuru

Now he is.

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He was one of the best in the draft coming out (and was younger than Valentine).

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Originally Posted by AUSSIE_PELICAN

Who is better defensively?

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From Thompson's scouting report (May 24th) before he was drafted.

"Still, there are many questions surrounding Thompson's game and how it will transition to the next level, namely due to his lack of great athleticism and struggles on the defensive end."

also

"Currently projected as a mid-first rounder, Thompson will likely have a chance to be drafted by a playoff-caliber team, where he could find early opportunities to be an offensive cog with his off-ball movement and spot shooting ability."

Thompson is clearly the better defender now, but a lot of the same questions were asked about him as Denzel Valentine when they were coming out of college.

Imagine how foolish the Timberwolves would have been to draft Thompson, 11th in most mock drafts, with the second pick. Instead they picked Derrick Williams, the consensus second pick according to almost every mock draft. How'd that turn out?

The only difference I see between both Valentine and Thompson as prospect is that Thompson created his offense with an off-ball movement while Valentine due it by using ball-handling. In a motion offense you really need guys that can perform well without the ball in their hands and use off-ball screens.

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Originally Posted by David Fisher

Imagine how foolish the Timberwolves would have been to draft Thompson, 11th in most mock drafts, with the second pick. Instead they picked Derrick Williams, the consensus second pick according to almost every mock draft. How'd that turn out?

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Exactly. Mock drafts are always right.

I'm so ready for this draft!! My dream scenario would be to get Kris Dunn at 6! Then package 39 & 40 to get Taurean Prince somewhere at the back end of the 1st. Then I hope we can add a good small forward and backup power forward in free agency.

C: Asik, Ajinca
PF: AD, FA
SF: FA, QPon, Prince
SG: Jrue, Reke
PG: Dunn, Frazier

I think an AD, Jrue, Reke, Dunn, Asik, Prince, and hopefully Barnes will be a legit playoff team in the future. Harrison Barnes signs a 4 year 75 million dollar deal. Then next offseason Jrue signs a 4 year 40 million dollar deal. I doubt he would take 10 million a year, but I can hope can I?!?! I hope Reke has a great season and resigns a 3 year 24 million dollar deal. Then come 2018, we win the CHAMPIONSHIP!! AD, Jrue, Barnes, Dunn, Reke, and Asik will be a sweet core 6 for years to come. A lot of versatility in that core of players.

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Originally Posted by Blattman

The only difference I see between both Valentine and Thompson as prospect is that Thompson created his offense with an off-ball movement while Valentine due it by using ball-handling. In a motion offense you really need guys that can perform well without the ball in their hands and use off-ball screens.

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And he could run off screens. But that wasn't Michigan State's MO all the time.

One thing you know is he has good defense embedded into his teaching. Izzo is all about the defense.

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Originally Posted by David Fisher

Imagine how foolish the Timberwolves would have been to draft Thompson, 11th in most mock drafts, with the second pick. Instead they picked Derrick Williams, the consensus second pick according to almost every mock draft. How'd that turn out?

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For ever Klay Thompson there are 100 more people out the league who were seen as a lower prospect. I see Valtine as a back up I just think the whole follow what ever GSW did plan people love so much is destined to fail. Everyone wants to draft a shooter like Curry or a player like Green.

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Originally Posted by Eman5805

And he could run off screens. But that wasn't Michigan State's MO all the time.

One thing you know is he has good defense embedded into his teaching. Izzo is all about the defense.

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not to mention they ran the ball thru him because of his sick passing.

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Originally Posted by 504ByrdGang

For ever Klay Thompson there are 100 more people out the league who were seen as a lower prospect. I see Valtine as a back up I just think the whole follow what ever GSW did plan people love so much is destined to fail. Everyone wants to draft a shooter like Curry or a player like Green.

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Instead you'd rather the Pelicans follow mock drafts.

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Originally Posted by David Fisher

Instead you'd rather the Pelicans follow mock drafts.

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Rather they pick a better player than try to force a pick just to get a senior. I would rather a player that is already as good or better and has a much higher ceiling rather than "check the box" by selecting a senior.

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Originally Posted by David Fisher

Imagine how foolish the Timberwolves would have been to draft Thompson, 11th in most mock drafts, with the second pick. Instead they picked Derrick Williams, the consensus second pick according to almost every mock draft. How'd that turn out?

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You can't discount GS"s system and playing next to one of the greatest shooters ever. If you place KT in a Pels uniform, would you get the same results. GS has five players that can pass of which four can dribble and shoot from from distance . They don't have ball dominant players. The Pels starting lineup had one or being generous two shooters who were threats from distance last year. Do you Thompson would be a great player in New Orleans?

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Originally Posted by durun

You can't discount GS"s system and playing next to one of the greatest shooters ever. If you place KT in a Pels uniform, would you get the same results. GS has five players that can pass of which four can dribble and shoot from from distance . They don't have ball dominant players. The Pels starting lineup had one or being generous two shooters who were threats from distance last year. Do you Thompson would be a great player in New Orleans?

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If we literally took him right now and dumped him on the Pels?

Heck yeah he would. He can get his own shot and run off screens. The pick and roll game with him and AD would be killer.

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Originally Posted by David Fisher

Instead you'd rather the Pelicans follow mock drafts.

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Instead I rather they draft BPA not a guy who is seen as the 17th best prospect but he does what we need but the 6th best prospect doesn't so we pass on him even though he will be the better player.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

Rather they pick a better player than try to force a pick just to get a senior. I would rather a player that is already as good or better and has a much higher ceiling rather than "check the box" by selecting a senior.

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Exactly that's how teams fail in the draft looking for fit and not the guy who was the most talented.

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Originally Posted by durun

You can't discount GS"s system and playing next to one of the greatest shooters ever. If you place KT in a Pels uniform, would you get the same results. GS has five players that can pass of which four can dribble and shoot from from distance . They don't have ball dominant players. The Pels starting lineup had one or being generous two shooters who were threats from distance last year. Do you Thompson would be a great player in New Orleans?

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Exactly, don't act like Klay would be the same player on a different team. He is learning from and competes with the greatest shooter ever. That is what has helped Klay's development.

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Originally Posted by HornetGuru

The Pels are going to end up with either Hield or Dunn.

Book it.

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Originally Posted by HornetGuru

Shouldn't matter how high he is in mocks, how many mocks had Kawhi, Draymond or Ginobli in the top 10?

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Think of it this way its about development. Tyreke on the right team would have been a superstar if he went to the Spurs. Instead he went to the kings where he disappointed. Kawhi on another team would probably be Aminu but he went to the right situation.

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Originally Posted by 504ByrdGang

Think of it this way its about development. Tyreke on the right team would have been a superstar if he went to the Spurs. Instead he went to the kings where he disappointed. Kawhi on another team would probably be Aminu but he went to the right situation.

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So the question is:

Which guys are we the right situation for?

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Originally Posted by HornetGuru

The Pels are going to end up with either Hield or Dunn.

Book it.

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Originally Posted by Caffeinedisastr

So the question is:

Which guys are we the right situation for?

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Guys like Dunn, Brown, Murray and maybe Hield even though I'm not high on him.

I think with Valentine with our lack of talent he would be asked to do too much since he isn't a player to excel in one aspect.

Dunn - perfect pg for this system. A athletic guy who loves to run and would be great at drawing defenders away from AD like Tyreke did.

Brown- another Athletic player who would be allowed to play in more space which he didn't have at Cal. He would also be used for what we need a wing defender while letting his other game develop.

Murray- great scorer would be looks to space the floor and take attention away from AD and the same for Hield.

I was watching some Jamal Murray highlights yesterday and I see his NBA comparison as a more athletic JJ Redick. Murray is a flat out scorer and he can put the ball in the basket in many ways. I think Murray to the Pelicans would be a very good pick.

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Originally Posted by 504ByrdGang

Instead I rather they draft BPA not a guy who is seen as the 17th best prospect but he does what we need but the 6th best prospect doesn't so we pass on him even though he will be the better player.

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17th according to whom? The last update by Kevin O'Conner, for instance, has Valentine 6th on his big board.

If you think Valentine is the 17th best prospect, that's fine. But don't act like there is any consensus on value beyond the top two.

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Originally Posted by 504ByrdGang

Guys like Dunn, Brown, Murray and maybe Hield even though I'm not high on him.

I think with Valentine with our lack of talent he would be asked to do too much since he isn't a player to excel in one aspect.

Dunn - perfect pg for this system. A athletic guy who loves to run and would be great at drawing defenders away from AD like Tyreke did.

Brown- another Athletic player who would be allowed to play in more space which he didn't have at Cal. He would also be used for what we need a wing defender while letting his other game develop.

Murray- great scorer would be looks to space the floor and take attention away from AD and the same for Hield.

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I will list the caveats for our teams fit:

Dunn - How does he draw defenders on PNR if they always go under the screen. Will have to develop his J.

Brown- But how do we get him the space he needs? Ryno/Gordon will be gone.

Murray- While he & Hield provide us with the spacing we desire, we can get shooting for cheap. When selecting a shooter in the 1st rd, we need them to do multiple things. That and I worry that Hield may start playing like Tyreke (trying to do everything) like he did at OU.

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Originally Posted by David Fisher

17th according to whom? The last update by Kevin O'Conner, for instance, has Valentine 6th on his big board.

If you think Valentine is the 17th best prospect, that's fine. But don't act like there is any consensus on value beyond the top two.

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There are very few who see him as a lotto pick majority of mock drafts have him either bottom lotto or lower. Iw would love to post them if you don't believe me.

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Originally Posted by 504ByrdGang

There are very few who see him as a lotto pick majority of mock drafts have him either bottom lotto or lower. Iw would love to post them if you don't believe me.

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Now you're talking about mock draft again. So you want the Pelicans to select a player based on mock drafts. Got it.

Mock Draft Round Up

Valentine mocked as high as 8th. No lower than 16th.

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Originally Posted by David Fisher

Mock Draft Round Up

Valentine mocked as high as 8th. No lower than 16th.

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O'Connor mocked Valentine at 10 two weeks ago and Poeltl to the Pels at 6. Mocks are like stat you can one to support your choice

Latest consensus, updated this morning.

http://www.nbadraft.net/nba_mock_drafts/consensus

Consensus is Valentine at 12.

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Originally Posted by David Fisher

Mock Draft Round Up

Valentine mocked as high as 8th. No lower than 16th.

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That information is dated. The 3 or 4 I looked at today have him from 16-20. Nbadraft.net has him at 18, CBS - 16, Forbes - 16, Draftexpress - 20, NBA.com (Howard) - 16

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

That information is dated. The 3 or 4 I looked at today have him from 16-20. Nbadraft.net has him at 18, CBS - 16, Forbes - 16, Draftexpress - 20, NBA.com (Howard) - 16

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And exactly zero games have taken place. So, we're letting mock drafts rate prospects for the Pelicans now. Hell, Dell Demps might as well just look at the mock drafts and take the highest rated prospect left. Don't even bother creating a big board for the team or anything. Foolproof strategy according to comment boards everywhere.

CBS Sports (5/26) - Valentine 8th
Basketball Insiders (5/25) - Valentine 12th, 12th, 12th, 18th

And again, mock drafts are not a ranking of prospects. They are not a big board. They are a mock draft taking into account team needs, reporting, rumors, etc.

But please, let's take the mock draft of your choosing as the definitive take on the ranking of a prospect. Remember Epke Udoh? Jan Vesely? Yi Jianlian? Thomas Robinson? Those teams didn't draft the best fit or checking a box. Highest upside! How'd that turn out?

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Originally Posted by David Fisher

And again, mock drafts are not a ranking of prospects. They are not a big board. They are a mock draft taking into account team needs, reporting, rumors, etc.

But please, let's take the mock draft of your choosing as the definitive take on the ranking of a prospect. Remember Epke Udoh? Jan Vesely? Yi Jianlian? Thomas Robinson? Those teams didn't draft the best fit or checking a box. Highest upside! How'd that turn out?

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Those were all boom or bust picks outside of Robinson. Don't act like people were touting them as can't miss guys. Some guts pan out and others don't. Teams rank prospects based on their ceiling to floor. Valentine has a very low floor and low ceiling. At his best he's considered nothing more the a role player starter.

consensus mock draft of 2012

http://www.nba.com/2012/news/feature...us-mock-draft/

similar like this year. there was clear top 1, now is clear top-2. apart from this everything might happen

mock is just mock
like someone take someone, whenever he is projected

How is this for consensus?

http://www.si.com/college-basketball...michigan-state

I would be pleased as punch to get Valentine, Hield, or Dunn. I think they all do things the Pelicans need.

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Originally Posted by 504ByrdGang

Those were all boom or bust picks outside of Robinson. Don't act like people were touting them as can't miss guys. Some guts pan out and others don't. Teams rank prospects based on their ceiling to floor. Valentine has a very low floor and low ceiling. At his best he's considered nothing more the a role player starter.

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Again, according to who? You have an opinion. That's nice. Let's not act like it's gospel.

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Originally Posted by David Fisher

Again, according to who? You have an opinion. That's nice. Let's not act like it's gospel.

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It majority of the opinions of writers and scouts who spent thousands of hours watching him play. Some may have h higher than others but for the most part he's seen as a role player and starter at best. Also as for need this team needs defenders in the worst way. I'm tired of all the teams problems looking to be solved by more offense. It looks as though the defense will always get ignored.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/pro-day...171704752.html

Pro-Day with prospects
with f.e. Demps in the stands...

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Originally Posted by David Fisher

And exactly zero games have taken place. So, we're letting mock drafts rate prospects for the Pelicans now. Hell, Dell Demps might as well just look at the mock drafts and take the highest rated prospect left. Don't even bother creating a big board for the team or anything. Foolproof strategy according to comment boards everywhere.

CBS Sports (5/26) - Valentine 8th
Basketball Insiders (5/25) - Valentine 12th, 12th, 12th, 18th

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No, just refuting what you were saying. Mocks are just guesses anyway, but I was just posting more current info.

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Originally Posted by David Fisher

Again, according to who? You have an opinion. That's nice. Let's not act like it's gospel.

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Yet, you seem to be taking the approach that if the Pelicans like a player that is not highly ranked by many, he must be better despite the opinions of others. If the Pelicans' staff had a stellar track record, I could see it.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

Yet, you seem to be taking the approach that if the Pelicans like a player that is not highly ranked by many, he must be better despite the opinions of others. If the Pelicans' staff had a stellar track record, I could see it.

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If the org has the same mind frame as him we are doomed. He's acting as if the pels are Spurs or OKC with drafting. I also find it funny that this teams stay away from young rookies because they take time to develop. Instead the like Jrs and Seniors which is a joke because every single upperclassmen player the have drafted has been useless Russ, Darius, and Withey.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

Yet, you seem to be taking the approach that if the Pelicans like a player that is not highly ranked by many, he must be better despite the opinions of others. If the Pelicans' staff had a stellar track record, I could see it.

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I mean. There's not a ton of a track record to examine. AD was a great and obvious pick. Rivers was the pick because of his upside and has been mentioned before if Drummond or Lillard had been there he would have taken one of them.

Maybe Miller, Russ, and Jackson were bad picks? I dunno. Miller hung around for a few years, Jackson was traded for the same value and Russ got us Qpon.... I don't think I'd say those were bad.

Out of all the things to hate on Dell about I don't think he's shown that he can't evaluate talent. Even his rumored love of Saric, the guy had a SOLID year in Europe and seems to be developing.

I guess my point is, I trust Dell and the Pels staff for selecting a player at 6 more than a sports writer who has little to no access to the players.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

Yet, you seem to be taking the approach that if the Pelicans like a player that is not highly ranked by many, he must be better despite the opinions of others. If the Pelicans' staff had a stellar track record, I could see it.

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No. I'm taking the approach that teams shouldn't let media mock drafts order their boards.

I get it. Some mock drafts have Valentine ranked lowly. Therefore the Pelicans would be foolish to draft him. I'd rather make my own opinions on prospects rather than let others or "consensus" do the intellectual work for me.

I think Valentine is an underrated prospect because he is skilled and intelligent. New Orleans could desperately use a player who will do his job on defense (team defense, not individual one-on-one defense, is the problem), shoot to space the floor, and is a willing passer. Valentine is the only prospect who checks all those boxes. Since mock drafts rank him lowly the Pelicans could, hypothetically, trade back and gain much needed additional assets in the process. Of course, given this team's history that is almost completely out of the question.

We talk about the Pelicans needing defense and focus almost solely on individual defense. Physical tools like length and athleticism. Alonzo Gee, Dante Cunningham, and others on the roster have those skill sets. The Pelicans are still a terrible defensive team because they fail to communicate and do their job. This team sorely lacks players who are intelligent.

USA Today

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While Valentine was steadily improving his draft stock in East Lansing, there was another boisterous force at play plying his trade in the Bay Area. Draymond Green, a four-year Spartan who’s morphed into the Golden State Warriors’ non-traditional power forward, kept altering the perception of what an NBA player should be. Still in the thick of the playoffs, Green seems equally comfortable challenging more athletic players at the rim as he is at piloting fastbreaks. One Western Conference general manager scoffed at a comparison between the two players, but the high IQ coupled with their unique build, not to mention their Spartan background, makes it a natural debate.

In fact, Green himself said he sees the comparisons.

“He’s the guard version of me,” Green said. “Is he a 1 or a 2? He’s a basketball player. Put him at the 1, 2, or 3, he’s going to get it done. He’s going to make plays. He’s going to score the basketball. He can defend. He works his ****** off.”

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Hoops Habit

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Like many Michigan State players, Valentine has developed in a good defender with great fundamentals and understanding of team defense. On the ball, Valentine positions himself well between his man and the basket, and shows average lateral movement over short distances. He reacts well to his man’s movements, but will tend to play on his heels if guarding a quicker player, leaving him vulnerable to quick changes in direction. Though his lateral movement could show some improvement, he can be very active and has the ability to pressure the ball, when needed. Valentine won’t make any chances on the ball, choosing to contain rather than try and force mistakes. Valentine seems to know his limitations against quicker players and does a great job looking to force them into help situations. If he does get beat on a quick first step, he doesn’t give up on plays, and his ability to use angles to cut off players has improved substantially. Valentine needs to work on getting over screens, and Michigan State will often rely on switches instead of forcing players to get through screens.

Off the ball, Valentine positions himself well and shows better movement, including showing the ability to deny passing lanes effectively. He is very active off the ball, bouncing effortlessly between help positions and still being able to get out on his man if he gets the pass. Valentine has great awareness, and he often sets the tone for the Spartans’ defense, barking out orders and having his teammates adjust, as needed. As on the offensive end, he sees the floor very well, and while he may not have great quickness, he has a knack for reading passes and being able to jump passing lanes. Valentine is a good help defender, whether it’s trapping on the sideline or double-teaming the post, and his constant activity allows him to cover a lot of ground. He does a great job shadowing his man off the ball, and he navigates through off-ball screens efficiently, leaving his opponent little space to get a shot after the catch. Valentine does a good job closing on shooters on the perimeter, though he can sometimes be slow to get out to them, but he always makes a strong effort.

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Today's Fastbreak

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Valentine’s 6’6″ frame, 6’10” wingspan and focused energy make for a quality collegiate defender. For the most part, he does a great job hounding his man on and off the ball.

His head is constantly on a swivel, keeping tabs on his man and the action on the other side of the court. Valentine fights over screens, moves his feet well and isn’t afraid to be physical.

However, his size won’t stand out at the next level, and his effort won’t always be enough to thwart the NBA’s electrifying athletes. There will be times when he’s overmatched from a physical standpoint by wings who are agiler.

Fortunately, those aforementioned attributes like hustle and alertness will make him respectable at worst. He’ll pick up schemes, be in the right place on the floor and work hard.

Valentine will also pull his weight in the rebounding department. He attacks the glass pretty well for his position in college, and he’ll do the same in the NBA whether he’s at the 1, 2 or 3 spot. Again, it’s an area where timing and footwork have allowed him to flourish and produce more; he’s averaging 9.8 boards per 40 minutes so far in 2015-16.

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David Fisher, if we took Valentine do u like him more as a SG or SF? I'm guessng SG?

So You say there is a hope on freshman??

@thebirdwrites @BourbonStShots Murray w/ Gentry and Demps at Peche tonight. pic.twitter.com/Ox32UmNv5f

— MDM (@MDM515) 1 czerwca 2016

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