Pelicans finalizing trade for Asik

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Originally Posted by UptownFuz504

My bad. I thought we were discussing championships. I agree that a superior player and a decent/good supporting cast can get you close to where you're trying to go.

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My thing is you cant just say - This makes us a sure fire champion. All you can give yourself is a chance. The Pels can do that with this foundation, especially if they replace Gordon with a better fit. All you can do. No way you can create a sure fire lock champion. Just give yourself a shot

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

I think again I'm being blamed for having a differing opinion and expressing it. Therefore a lot of people here are asking what I would do differently than proceed to attack me because my way isn't fool proof.

People are making the assumption that I'm saying we can't do it Demps ' way. I would never say things as definitive because I can't predict the future. However I see the problems with his way and think another way is better. If you agree cool, if you want me to explain cool, if you disagree cool, but stop making it seem like I'm trying to steal Christmas because I don't think it's the best way for us to compete for titles.

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That's a nice one :hihi: wish it was xmas...i hate hot weather

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Originally Posted by UptownFuz504

Point taken but none of those teams won anything which was my point.

Also, I stand firmly in the Reke is vastly overrated by everyone on PelsReport bucket. He's a shooting guard that needs to play point but not actually good enough to play point. Not that appealing to me personally.

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Which is why he's a good match with Jrue, who is willing and able to play off the ball, but can also play the point if needed. He also benefits Jrue since Holiday struggles to handle the ball against elite defenders. In these games, he could let Tyreke do most of the ball handling.

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

But dude, we're entering year 3 of a complete gut job and rebuild. Again, who in the bottom 20 of the league would you trade circumstances with? You're comparing what we've done to a perfect scenario of what we could have done in your view, and that's not really all that fair. Given the circumstances, Dell has done a hell of a job. No one in this city, from fans to ownership, would be happy (except for maybe you) if we were pursuing the Magic/76ers/Bucks/Bobcats/Jazz model. That arena would be empty and AD would be counting the days til he can bounce.

Whether or not this team is sustainable, without having any idea where the cap will be in 2 or 3 years, is a conversation for another day. But it's the same conversation you eventually have if you're successful whether you're the Celtics/Heat or Spurs/Thunder.

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1st is our attendance greater than all those teams you listed?

As for some of your other points. We are in the 3rd year of the rebuild and we coul be in a situation where we are having to add to our core here as soon as next year if we do trade Anderson. And be looking at another complete rebuild in 3 seasons(maybe sooner) once Holiday and Evans contracts are up.

Asking me to point to a team isn't really a fair measurement tool as teams are just run so badly. Let use the Magic since I'd say they are also in year 3 of a rebuild. Just today they trade away Aaron Afflalo for Evan Fournier. To me that's a bad deal when your in position to trade to the top of this draft. If they could have pulled the trigger for the number spot I would say they were on a great path to building a sustainable team built to compete when guys are all maturing at the same time. Really drafting 4th and 12th they are still in position to put themselves in that position.

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Originally Posted by UptownFuz504

My bad. I thought we were discussing championships. I agree that a superior player and a decent/good supporting cast can get you close to where you're trying to go.

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Not sure why. I always say title contender as my objective as I think it's the only legit goal I think you can aim for like MM said. And this has been the case for a very long time.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

1st is our attendance greater than all those teams you listed?

As for some of your other points. We are in the 3rd year of the rebuild and we coul be in a situation where we are having to add to our core here as soon as next year if we do trade Anderson. And be looking at another complete rebuild in 3 seasons(maybe sooner) once Holiday and Evans contracts are up.

Asking me to point to a team isn't really a fair measurement tool as teams are just run so badly. Let use the Magic since I'd say they are also in year 3 of a rebuild. Just today they trade away Aaron Afflalo for Evan Fournier. To me that's a bad deal when your in position to trade to the top of this draft. If they could have pulled the trigger for the number spot I would say they were on a great path to building a sustainable team built to compete when guys are all maturing at the same time. Really drafting 4th and 12th they are still in position to put themselves in that position.

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Won't the magic, or any other team building through the draft, if they're successful have the same problem you see the Pelicans having in 3 years? The Magic will have to deal with all these restricted free agents when those rookie deals come to an end. If the team has had success because they hit the draft right, they'll eventually have to pay whatever the market will bare for their team. So success no matter how you build it becomes hard to sustain. Mediocracy, no matter how it's build, it easy to sustain.

I think where I'm getting lost, is in this idea that the Pelicans will somehow not achieve the level of success we all hope for, but at the same time our players will have performed to a level to where they'll be worth more than the contracts they're currently playing under.

Honestly I think Dell was ahead of the curve in trading draft picks for young vets. This is supposedly one of the deepest drafts in years, and look how many teams are supposedly open to trading their pick. The league has finally realized they can't evaluate 19 year olds with any real degree of certainty! Can't expect a middle aged guy with a family (like Dell) to risk his career and his livelihood on a 19 year old unknown, if they option of securing a known quantity. Success rate of rookies is just too damn low.

I'd still take jrue over MCW and #10

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

Won't the magic, or any other team building through the draft, if they're successful have the same problem you see the Pelicans having in 3 years? The Magic will have to deal with all these restricted free agents when those rookie deals come to an end. If the team has had success because they hit the draft right, they'll eventually have to pay whatever the market will bare for their team. So success no matter how you build it becomes hard to sustain. Mediocracy, no matter how it's build, it easy to sustain.

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Yes but you can't expect everybody on there team to be due max and even if they were their players max is less than our players max. They now have the ability to trade away guys that they can't re-sign for a fair deal and the teams will do so knowing they can match any deal. They keep the 3 or 4 players they want and then use those other assets to find affordable fill in's. They can give away 3 max deals and still have the cap space to put depth around them. Can we do the same with Davis/Holiday/Evans?

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I think where I'm getting lost, is in this idea that the Pelicans will somehow not achieve the level of success we all hope for, but at the same time our players will have performed to a level to where they'll be worth more than the contracts they're currently playing under.

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No I'm saying it's one or the other. Either our guys underperform and we don't want them or they shine and everybody will see them as their missing piece and teams with the cap space will try to sign them away. If the theory is we are going to keep them because we are winning then that needs to happen as early as next year for that plan to work. Do you think we are a lock for the playoffs next year right now?

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Honestly I think Dell was ahead of the curve in trading draft picks for young vets. This is supposedly one of the deepest drafts in years, and look how many teams are supposedly open to trading their pick. The league has finally realized they can't evaluate 19 year olds with any real degree of certainty! Can't expect a middle aged guy with a family (like Dell) to risk his career and his livelihood on a 19 year old unknown, if they option of securing a known quantity. Success rate of rookies is just too damn low.

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Every team should be open to anything or they are dumb. If teams are trying to dump salary and are willing to give away established players teams will listen doesn't mean they don't value the pick. I don't even dislike the Asik trade given what Demps is trying to do. I just don't like what it is he's trying to do if that makes sense to you.

Every move Demps make puts his job on the line. We miss the playoffs this year it's fair to say he's gone. Not to say this situation is all his fault. I have no animosity toward Dell. At this point I'm more upset with Benson and his assumed timetable. Not drafting a guy can get you fired just as quickly as drafting a guy. This is the life Dell accepted.

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Originally Posted by HornetGuru

I'd still take jrue over MCW and #10

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Well what about MCW and #1-5?

For the record I think Carter-Williams isn't that good. Don't think he becomes a top 12 PG.

Da Throne - Where I think I disagree with you is that you think all our guys wlll shine and get overpaid by other teams. I think the team will have so many guys sharing stats that players base stats will suffer and that will keep teams from just throwing the kitchen sink at guys who are 27 or 28 and whose base stats have declined.

Tak a guy like Ryno - even if he comes back 100%, his minutes and shots go down 10-20% and so will his production. Meanwhile, there will always be Gordon Haywards out there who put up big raw numbers on a lesser team and have "upside" and those are the guys that get paid big money. Balanced teams can stay together (see early 2000s Pistons) because those teams dont have one or two guys who eat up all the stats. But we shall see.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

Well what about MCW and #1-5?

For the record I think Carter-Williams isn't that good. Don't think he becomes a top 12 PG.

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Why would we have had a pick #1-5? If we hadn't made the Jrue or Tyreke deals I think we would have had at least the same if not a better record because of all the injuries we had. Vasquez and Lopez would have been better than what we started, and even if you think the Tyreke deal would have still happened, the rest of the injuries would not have happened making the team most likely superior to the team we had for most of the season last year. In no way can you just assume we'd have a top 5 pick, and with the trade we would have kept a top 5 pick if we won the lottery in what is a 3 (now 2) man draft.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Da Throne - Where I think I disagree with you is that you think all our guys wlll shine and get overpaid by other teams. I think the team will have so many guys sharing stats that players base stats will suffer and that will keep teams from just throwing the kitchen sink at guys who are 27 or 28 and whose base stats have declined.

Tak a guy like Ryno - even if he comes back 100%, his minutes and shots go down 10-20% and so will his production. Meanwhile, there will always be Gordon Haywards out there who put up big raw numbers on a lesser team and have "upside" and those are the guys that get paid big money. Balanced teams can stay together (see early 2000s Pistons) because those teams dont have one or two guys who eat up all the stats. But we shall see.

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I think the Pistons aren't a great example because we were under a much friendlier CBA for keeping guys together then. However this is a fair point and a potential scenario that could be positive for us. I would hope GM's are smart enough to base talent evalution on film study and skill sets not just stats, but there appear to be a lot of bad GM's out there so clearly it ain't that easy.

I think it would come down to team success. If we are mildly successful and guys numbers dip we have a good chance to keep the band together. However if we do make win some playoffs series even see a WCF I think the poachers start coming with big contracts even if all the guys aren't putting up big individual numbers.

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Originally Posted by RekeHavoc

Why would we have had a pick #1-5? If we hadn't made the Jrue or Tyreke deals I think we would have had at least the same if not a better record because of all the injuries we had. Vasquez and Lopez would have been better than what we started, and even if you think the Tyreke deal would have still happened, the rest of the injuries would not have happened making the team most likely superior to the team we had for most of the season last year. In no way can you just assume we'd have a top 5 pick, and with the trade we would have kept a top 5 pick in a 3 (now 2) man draft.

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Maybe but again if we are talking hypothetical situations you never know. Not to mention if we had gone the way of the draft we could have gotten rid of Lopez and company for a chance to get more picks. Then we could have spent last year playing the young guys. Than 1-7 is probably a more realistic window for our drafting range. Which has been my whole point.

You can't win a championship unless the value of your players are worth more than the values of their contracts. There's a .1% percent chance we win a title in the next 3 years the way this team is built -- and less than that once there's a super team at the end of this off-season.

Is Jrue worth more than 11mil? No.
Is Tyreke worth more than 11 mil? No.
Is Ryan worth more than 8.5 mil? Yes.
Is Asik worth more than the 10mil he will get from us next year? No.

There's no point to doing this --- unless they use these guys for a year and then turn around and trade them for younger, better contracts. And for all the dissecting we've done, we still don't have an elite guy on this team who can win a game with the ball in his hands late.

AD is one of the easiest players to build a championship team with. You don't have to worry about hogging the ball and sharing the ball. He does everything exceptionally well and doesn't require the ball. The next step should have always been finding another superstar to pair him with. That's what this debate really should be about -- do you build by finding another superstar or do you build by surrounding him with a bunch of other 'good' players?

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Originally Posted by Primetime

You can't win a championship unless the value of your players are worth more than the values of their contracts. There's a .1% percent chance we win a title in the next 3 years the way this team is built -- and less than that once there's a super team at the end of this off-season.

Is Jrue worth more than 11mil? No.
Is Tyreke worth more than 11 mil? No.
Is Ryan worth more than 8.5 mil? Yes.
Is Asik worth more than the 10mil he will get from us next year? No.

There's no point to doing this --- unless they use these guys for a year and then turn around and trade them for younger, better contracts. And for all the dissecting we've done, we still don't have an elite guy on this team who can win a game with the ball in his hands late.

AD is one of the easiest players to build a championship team with. You don't have to worry about hogging the ball and sharing the ball. He does everything exceptionally well and doesn't require the ball. The next step should have always been finding another superstar to pair him with. That's what this debate really should be about -- do you build by finding another superstar or do you build by surrounding him with a bunch of other 'good' players?

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The whole thing about a guy winning the game with ball in his hand late is overblown. You build an all around team to blow out the Heat so you don't have to worry about someone taking over a game. Although, i guess you forgot about AD and a top 5 passing backcourt to get him the ball.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Sleeper

The whole thing about a guy winning the game with ball in his hand late is overblown. You build an all around team to blow out the Heat so you don't have to worry about someone taking over a game. Although, i guess you forgot aD?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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AD is not that type of guy right now and may never be if we're to be honest. Because the Spurs beat the Heat, don't think for a second that this isn't a superstar's game. That same Spurs team lost to the Heat's 2 superstars last year (and the Heat have 2 championships in the last few years to the Spurs 1). The vast majority of championship teams have multiple Hall of Famers on it.

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Originally Posted by Primetime

You can't win a championship unless the value of your players are worth more than the values of their contracts. There's a .1% percent chance we win a title in the next 3 years the way this team is built -- and less than that once there's a super team at the end of this off-season.

Is Jrue worth more than 11mil? No.
Is Tyreke worth more than 11 mil? No.
Is Ryan worth more than 8.5 mil? Yes.
Is Asik worth more than the 10mil he will get from us next year? No.

There's no point to doing this --- unless they use these guys for a year and then turn around and trade them for younger, better contracts. And for all the dissecting we've done, we still don't have an elite guy on this team who can win a game with the ball in his hands late.

AD is one of the easiest players to build a championship team with. You don't have to worry about hogging the ball and sharing the ball. He does everything exceptionally well and doesn't require the ball. The next step should have always been finding another superstar to pair him with. That's what this debate really should be about -- do you build by finding another superstar or do you build by surrounding him with a bunch of other 'good' players?

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The problem is at the top with Benson, if the "win now" mandate is 100% true.

Given that, Demps is doing what he has to do to keep his job. He's carrying out the owner's wishes.

If this were a situation like what Hinkie has in Philly, you could trade down, stash, extract tons of value and be patient. If Demps tried that, he'd be gone already. He only survived because he went out, spent money, and the guys he spent it on got hurt. He was unlucky and got a pass. If he'd gone into the season with a young team and just straight up won 30 games that way, he'd be looking for work.

we should just cancel the asik trade, use the mle on pj tucker and sign patric young

on a serious note:

stretch gordon
sign and trade ryno for parsons

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Originally Posted by HornetGuru

we should just cancel the asik trade, use the mle on pj tucker and sign patric young

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Might be able to get him without losing Asik.

What's the deal with Asik? I'm nervous.

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Originally Posted by DefensiveMind

What's the deal with Asik? I'm nervous.

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I guess we'll have to wait until the moratorium period for the inevitable trade away of one of the Finishing Five or Rivers. Making us fans wait it out sucks, I feel ya.

I guess some people would be happy with:

C: Robin Lopez
PF: AD
SF: Aminu
SG: Gordon
PG:Vasquez
6th: Ryno

I don't get what makes people upset about making moves to freaking WIN!!! Some of y'all act like this is New York, Chicago, or Los Angeles, and we can have our pick of what free agent we want at the price they are supposedly "worth"?

I never thought I would see the day where this team would be making the moves they have/will make to actually try and WIN the last 3 years! I thought after CP3 this team may become this generation's BAD Clippers!

It started when we hit the lottery and added a potential super star to build around. We stole Ryno from Orlando. We hoped we had one of the top young, upcoming shooting guards in the league in Eric Gordon, but that didn't work out. BUT we didn't let that knock us off our vision to do whatever it takes to put a winning team around our future star, AD. We made a really good trade for a player that has made an all star team in Jrue Holiday for essentially 2 guys that looking at them don't make me all that upset really. We got one of the best young free agents available last summer IMO to come HERE to play in Tyreke Evans. Then it sounds like we will be making a move for a top center in the league, that I would of traded Ryno for last year by the way, for a future 1st rounder that could end up being worse than one of these guys that went tonight in the middle of the 1st round(in what was supposed to be the best draft since 05 this time last year)! I may have left out some moves, but this post is big enough...LMAO

I would much rather this team all day, every day:

C: Asik
F: AD
G: Reke
G: Gordon
G: Jrue
6th: Ryno

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Originally Posted by Primetime

You can't win a championship unless the value of your players are worth more than the values of their contracts. There's a .1% percent chance we win a title in the next 3 years the way this team is built -- and less than that once there's a super team at the end of this off-season.

Is Jrue worth more than 11mil? No.
Is Tyreke worth more than 11 mil? No.
Is Ryan worth more than 8.5 mil? Yes.
Is Asik worth more than the 10mil he will get from us next year? No.

There's no point to doing this --- unless they use these guys for a year and then turn around and trade them for younger, better contracts. And for all the dissecting we've done, we still don't have an elite guy on this team who can win a game with the ball in his hands late.

AD is one of the easiest players to build a championship team with. You don't have to worry about hogging the ball and sharing the ball. He does everything exceptionally well and doesn't require the ball. The next step should have always been finding another superstar to pair him with. That's what this debate really should be about -- do you build by finding another superstar or do you build by surrounding him with a bunch of other 'good' players?

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I betcha you didnt know that Tiago Splitter has a contract of 9.3million.... Did they just win a championship?

Great trade doe. Unless AD goes down there is no way in hell our pick should be top 10, we should be a playoff team or at the very least in the hunt.