Pels Off season thread

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Originally Posted by Funcrusher

Also, lmao at your "disclaimer" when you simultaneously post garbage like this. Literally all you do is denigrate a great player two years into his career because you want to look edgy or smart. How you can call yourself a fan of this team with a straight face (you probably can't) is beyond me.

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Why bother? At a certain point you need to just accept you're talking to someone who is either a bad faith troll or a genuine imbecile and move on; don't give him the time.

People super hurt in this thread. Its okay, the same people will be saying he is overrated after he leaves. Fandom provides a bias that makea objectivity impossible

I will say again that my stance on Zion is that he has some generational talents. Has potential to be a top 5 player in this league and is far ahead of say Giannis at 20, and several others. But he is a negative on the defensive end - only debate is how big a negative. He is a disappointment on the defensive glass, and his playmaking shows signs of being good, but its just flashes right now. I need more to put him that high

I’m fine with Zion’s current rate of development, personally. But he cancelled on a single instance to join Ingram and whatever in Phoenix and his parents are the reason? He’s not training hard? Truth is there’s precious little of Zion ever released or seen.

And the silliness about Zion being too pampered. Struggle isn’t strength. Studies consistently show that stress and what doesn’t kill you make you weaker, kills you sooner. Best warriors who actually kill people through history were pampered and privileged. You are either built to win or you fight and take it. Sometimes both. But Zion? So many proclamations about the future. Too much is left undecided. And even if you think this or that, where’s the fun gone? People need to relax a bit and enjoy the ride.

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Originally Posted by Eman5805

I’m fine with Zion’s current rate of development, personally. But he cancelled on a single instance to join Ingram and whatever in Phoenix and his parents are the reason? He’s not training hard? Truth is there’s precious little of Zion ever released or seen.

And the silliness about Zion being too pampered. Struggle isn’t strength. Studies consistently show that stress and what doesn’t kill you make you weaker, kills you sooner. Best warriors who actually kill people through history were pampered and privileged. You are either built to win or you fight and take it. Sometimes both. But Zion? So many proclamations about the future. Too much is left undecided. And even if you think this or that, where’s the fun gone? People need to relax a bit and enjoy the ride.

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He had some business obligations in Cali. Would I have liked to see him at the Finals game? Yes. Do I think him cancelling is some big sign that we need to read into? I dont.

I want to see what kind of shape he shows up to camp in - that will tell me a lot. He came to Summer League overweight. He came back to the bubble overweight. Came into this season in so-so shape. There is zero excuse this year. He wants to win - well, stop worrying about what the FO is doing and control the one thing you can control. Bust your butt this offseason, and come in with the goal of being the best version of yourself. If you do that and put the team on your back and they still cant win, then whine all you want and demand out. But lets see you be in great shape from day 1 and be a great player on both sides of the court first

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

He had some business obligations in Cali. Would I have liked to see him at the Finals game? Yes. Do I think him cancelling is some big sign that we need to read into? I dont.

I want to see what kind of shape he shows up to camp in - that will tell me a lot. He came to Summer League overweight. He came back to the bubble overweight. Came into this season in so-so shape. There is zero excuse this year. He wants to win - well, stop worrying about what the FO is doing and control the one thing you can control. Bust your butt this offseason, and come in with the goal of being the best version of yourself. If you do that and put the team on your back and they still cant win, then whine all you want and demand out. But lets see you be in great shape from day 1 and be a great player on both sides of the court first

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I agree 100% with this second paragraph.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

People super hurt in this thread. Its okay, the same people will be saying he is overrated after he leaves. Fandom provides a bias that makea objectivity impossible

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Nah fam, I slept ok last night. Not super hurt lol. More just annoyed that your online persona on this forum is a giant ************ who pretends he knows basketball but literally just spits out Stephen A. Smith's c-grade takes.

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Originally Posted by Funcrusher

Nah fam, I slept ok last night. Not super hurt lol. More just annoyed that your online persona on this forum is a giant ************ who pretends he knows basketball but literally just spits out Stephen A. Smith's c-grade takes.

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This is called an Ad Hominem. Its a fallacy that occurs when you attack the person instead of the argument. Common tactic amongst children. I would rather debate the facts than resort to these lazy tactics, but kids will be kids

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Why bother? At a certain point you need to just accept you're talking to someone who is either a bad faith troll or a genuine imbecile and move on; don't give him the time.

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I already have him on mute, and I haven't responded to him in forever. Ultimately, I don't take it too serious. I see it as "entertainment" (that I can only stomach once in a blue moon)

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

This is called an Ad Hominem. Its a fallacy that occurs when you attack the person instead of the argument. Common tactic amongst children. I would rather debate the facts than resort to these lazy tactics, but kids will be kids

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aye, mac, it's ok man. You can call it an Ad Hominem or whatever you like, but it's unfortunately the truth. Particularly when I've already tackled your arguments in good faith several times with thorough logic and empirical evidence, and your response to them have predictably been "well, that's just your opinion" If I resort to these "tactics," I'm just tired of the same old emperor's new clothes delivery you give. And to argue that you of all people would rather debate the "facts" is ridiculous. Get off your high horse.

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Originally Posted by Funcrusher

aye, mac, it's ok man. You can call it an Ad Hominem or whatever you like, but it's unfortunately the truth. Particularly when I've already tackled your arguments in good faith several times with thorough logic and empirical evidence, and your response to them have predictably been "well, that's just your opinion" If I resort to these "tactics," I'm just tired of the same old emperor's new clothes delivery you give. And to argue that you of all people would rather debate the "facts" is ridiculous. Get off your high horse.

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Sorry - where did you point out what other parts of the game Zion does at an above average level? As I have said, there have been numerous studies showing that scoring is the most easily replaceable stat in basketball. Not saying it is the least valuable, but it is up there - especially scoring in the first 40 minutes. To be a top tier player, you have to have other areas where you can dominate and/or you have to be an elite finisher. Admittedly, Zion shoots a high percentage on the limited attempts late in games. Also turns the ball over at a high rate in those moments too.

Maybe as soon as this upcoming season he can be a great finisher. Maybe he takes a leap and starts getting defensive boards, and maybe his assists go up and his turnovers go down as his handle gets tighter and space gives him better passing lanes. Maybe that happens - but to assume it happens or think it has already been proven out is just incorrect. He scores at a really efficient clip, mostly in the first 40 minutes. That is the truth of who he has been. Nobody is saying that cant evolve, but calling people trolls who objectively point out the truth of what has been so far is immature

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Sorry - where did you point out what other parts of the game Zion does at an above average level? As I have said, there have been numerous studies showing that scoring is the most easily replaceable stat in basketball. Not saying it is the least valuable, but it is up there - especially scoring in the first 40 minutes. To be a top tier player, you have to have other areas where you can dominate and/or you have to be an elite finisher. Admittedly, Zion shoots a high percentage on the limited attempts late in games. Also turns the ball over at a high rate in those moments too.

Maybe as soon as this upcoming season he can be a great finisher. Maybe he takes a leap and starts getting defensive boards, and maybe his assists go up and his turnovers go down as his handle gets tighter and space gives him better passing lanes. Maybe that happens - but to assume it happens or think it has already been proven out is just incorrect. He scores at a really efficient clip, mostly in the first 40 minutes. That is the truth of who he has been. Nobody is saying that cant evolve, but calling people trolls who objectively point out the truth of what has been so far is immature

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You're (half) right. I intensely disagree with your logic and how you arrived at that logic, but I took things too far. The only one who comes out looking like a ************ here is me. I gotta rein it in sometimes

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Originally Posted by Funcrusher

You're (half) right. I intensely disagree with your logic and how you arrived at that logic, but I probably took things too far. The only one who comes out looking like a ************ here is me. I gotta rein it in sometimes

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I appreciate the self reflection and acknowledgement. If you want to have a mature debate, I am cool having it. But just know, that people can disagree. It is possible, without one person being a troll and the other being certifiably correct. These are opinions, not facts. There is no way to get to 'Fact' when you are debating things like 'Top 10 player'

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

People super hurt in this thread. Its okay, the same people will be saying he is overrated after he leaves. Fandom provides a bias that makea objectivity impossible

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I don't think anyone has ever said CP was overrated, or Jrue, or Tyson, or David West, etc. The only person we've ever called overrated was AD, and that's because we realized he was overrated while he was here. It's not his skill set that causes him to be overrated, it's his ability to stay on the floor. That's the most important skill there is, and AD couldn't do it. People thought it would be different once he went to a contender, and clearly it is not.

We have a fairly smart fanbase by NBA standards. We just so happened to have the one athlete in sports history that refused to acknowledge us with so much as a Thank You and flicked us off on the way out, so of course we are bitter. That doesn't mean we don't understand the game.

The jury is still out, obviously, on Zion's ability to stay healthy; but last year was encouraging.

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Originally Posted by pelafanatic

I don't think anyone has ever said CP was overrated, or Jrue, or Tyson, or David West, etc. The only person we've ever called overrated was AD, and that's because we realized he was overrated while he was here. It's not his skill set that causes him to be overrated, it's his ability to stay on the floor. That's the most important skill there is, and AD couldn't do it. People thought it would be different once he went to a contender, and clearly it is not.

We have a fairly smart fanbase by NBA standards. We just so happened to have the one athlete in sports history that refused to acknowledge us with so much as a Thank You and flicked us off on the way out, so of course we are bitter. That doesn't mean we don't understand the game.

The jury is still out, obviously, on Zion's ability to stay healthy; but last year was encouraging.

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On the contrary, I was sad when Jrue left precisely because I thought he was so awesome, and I've repeatedly argued that Chris Paul is top 3 all time at his position and top 20 all time overall. No sour grapes or negative judgement to either guy.

The idea that you can predict how the fanbase will react to any player leaving based on the response to ADs exit is absurd. In fact, when the initial trade stuff came out, I remember most of the people on this board saying something along the lines of ''well, can't really blame him; franchise failed him''. The negatively only grew as AD continued behaving more and more like a tool about it - the That's All Folks shirt (that he then claimed was chosen by a stylist), him and Rich Paul crying to the league when the team wanted to sit him, him naming his 'acceptable destinations', the lack of an exit message, et cetera.

If Zion plays 7 years in New Orleans and doesn't even ever get consecutive playoff runs and then decides to leave, I don't think anyone would blame him unless he handled it like a jerk.

Also can we just wait on this Zion argument for like one more year? We basically just watched his rookie season in which he averaged 27-7-4 on 61% shooting. It's not necessary to fight about it yet. We need to just enjoy the development. He's not even close to a finished product.

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Originally Posted by pelafanatic

Also can we just wait on this Zion argument for like one more year? We basically just watched his rookie season in which he averaged 27-7-4 on 61% shooting. It's not necessary to fight about it yet. We need to just enjoy the development. He's not even close to a finished product.

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the most sane post yet

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Originally Posted by pelafanatic

Also can we just wait on this Zion argument for like one more year? We basically just watched his rookie season in which he averaged 27-7-4 on 61% shooting. It's not necessary to fight about it yet. We need to just enjoy the development. He's not even close to a finished product.

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He's a historically great scorer already, he improved as a playmaker and FT shooter compared to his rookie year (short as it was) and despite all of the complaining, his defense by the end of the year had improved as well. Not saying he's a good defensive player yet, by any means, but the hyperbolic claims of him being ''one of the worst defenders in the NBA'' that we heard from many people are just that: hyperbole. He's not even the worst defender in the New Orleans Pelicans starting lineup for Christ's sake.

Plus, as I've mentioned before: nobody gives Damian Lillard the same shtick despite him being a notably worse defender. I get the concerns about two way play, I really do, and I hope that Zion will improve on that end as well, but this idea that you need to be a defensive stalwart to reach the upper echelons of NBA impact and value is just not an idea that applies to reality. Hell, you can be a top 8 sort of NBA player with only mediocre defense: Luka Doncic, Nikola Jokic, and Stephen Curry all say hello.

Zion's 21st birthday was two weeks ago. He's a very young guy still. The defense needs to improve, sure, no real problem with saying that. But acting like it's a severe problem that he's not a polished and finished product 85 games into his career is a joke. Zion just had a better age 20 season than Giannis did: remind me where Giannis ended up?

What is your ideal reasonable starting lineup going into next season?

My reasonable one would be:
PG- Lowry
SG- NAW
SF- BI
PF- Zion
C- Adams
6th- Lauri Markkanen

I would trade 10 to the Knicks for 19 and 21 and then move 21, 35, and Bledsoe for Lowry. Then sign and trade Lonzo for Lauri and some change.
I think with this roster you can compete for a solid playoff spot and potentially a round 1 win while also holding onto your assets for the eventual big fish. Lauri and Jax allow you to preserve Adams, and you retain Adams contract in case you have to match salaries this season.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Sorry - where did you point out what other parts of the game Zion does at an above average level? As I have said, there have been numerous studies showing that scoring is the most easily replaceable stat in basketball. Not saying it is the least valuable, but it is up there - especially scoring in the first 40 minutes. To be a top tier player, you have to have other areas where you can dominate and/or you have to be an elite finisher. Admittedly, Zion shoots a high percentage on the limited attempts late in games. Also turns the ball over at a high rate in those moments too.

Maybe as soon as this upcoming season he can be a great finisher. Maybe he takes a leap and starts getting defensive boards, and maybe his assists go up and his turnovers go down as his handle gets tighter and space gives him better passing lanes. Maybe that happens - but to assume it happens or think it has already been proven out is just incorrect. He scores at a really efficient clip, mostly in the first 40 minutes. That is the truth of who he has been. Nobody is saying that cant evolve, but calling people trolls who objectively point out the truth of what has been so far is immature

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This!!!

Having "Generational Talent" is one thing (and he has it); but to translate that talent into becoming a "Generational Player, is a whole other animal (and it's mostly on him to make the nexus).

Not sure 21 +35 let's you dump Bled and get Lowry, but I like where your head is at. My dream offseason get is still Brogdon, if there is any chance. Absent that, I would actually be ok coming back with Ball + NAW in the starting backcourt, though perhaps the Lonzo ship has sailed, on both sides. I'm not a big fan of emptying the war chest for Lillard. He's an incredible scorer and late game finisher, but he's a terrible defender, on the wrong side of 30 and would cost too much. I'd also be ok taking Davion Mitchell at 10. I think he can play right away and is the kind of defender and knife-fighter we've lacked at the point since CP3 left town. I could easily see him becoming Lowry-like in a few years...

I have legitimately no interest in Lauri Markkanen at all, and the fact that I briefly considered it back in like, January, is a matter of minor shame. He really just isn't very good overall as a basketball player.

I'd be much more interested in checking out Atlanta's embarrassment of riches. There were rumours that they could be looking to move off one or two names a while ago - they have like 5 guys due for extension at the end of the year and could be in for some huge tax money if they keep them all. Could we pry away Kevin Huerter? Bogdan? Either guy at reasonable cost would be a million miles more desirable than Lauri imo.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

I have legitimately no interest in Lauri Markkanen at all, and the fact that I briefly considered it back in like, January, is a matter of minor shame. He really just isn't very good overall as a basketball player.

I'd be much more interested in checking out Atlanta's embarrassment of riches. There were rumours that they could be looking to move off one or two names a while ago - they have like 5 guys due for extension at the end of the year and could be in for some huge tax money if they keep them all. Could we pry away Kevin Huerter? Bogdan? Either guy at reasonable cost would be a million miles more desirable than Lauri imo.

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Personally not interested in adding more guards who can't really do much off the dribble unless they are truly elite shooters and aren't defensive liabilities, so Huerter is likely out for me. I like Shamit's idea of Utah's Bogdanovic. I think we need a 4 that can really rip it from 3, and he obviously fills that need. I'd be fine with either Bogdanovic really, especially paired with Lowry (or Conley or another PG who can probe)

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Originally Posted by pelafanatic

Personally not interested in adding more guards who can't really do much off the dribble unless they are truly elite shooters and aren't defensive liabilities, so Huerter is likely out for me. I like Shamit's idea of Utah's Bogdanovic. I think we need a 4 that can really rip it from 3, and he obviously fills that need. I'd be fine with either Bogdanovic really, especially paired with Lowry (or Conley or another PG who can probe)

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Huerter isn't a defensive liability. He's not a stopper, don't get me wrong, but he's pretty clearly grown into a solid enough team defender. I also think he's a better defender than his 3pt% would imply from this year: he was 38% or better both of his first two years on high volume, and even this year he wasn't bad, just not fantastic (36.5% ish, I think?).

I do agree that the Bogdanovic's would be better but they're also probably much more expensive to acquire, and Huerter is only 22 so there's probably still growth there tbh. Even this past year, while his shooting took a small dip, he improved considerably as a passer and playmaker.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Huerter isn't a defensive liability. He's not a stopper, don't get me wrong, but he's pretty clearly grown into a solid enough team defender. I also think he's a better defender than his 3pt% would imply from this year: he was 38% or better both of his first two years on high volume, and even this year he wasn't bad, just not fantastic (36.5% ish, I think?).

I do agree that the Bogdanovic's would be better but they're also probably much more expensive to acquire, and Huerter is only 22 so there's probably still growth there tbh. Even this past year, while his shooting took a small dip, he improved considerably as a passer and playmaker.

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Don't get me wrong, I like Huerter. I wanted him at the deadline in a Lonzo deal. I'd be happy with him as your 6th-7th man. He's not the guy I'm going after though. More like a fall back option if you miss out on starting caliber players.

I think it's important to note that I think NAW is locked in as your starting 2 this year, which is why I wouldn't necessarily be thrilled about prioritizing Huerter.

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Originally Posted by pelafanatic

Don't get me wrong, I like Huerter. I wanted him at the deadline in a Lonzo deal. I'd be happy with him as your 6th-7th man. He's not the guy I'm going after though. More like a fall back option if you miss out on starting caliber players.

I think it's important to note that I think NAW is locked in as your starting 2 this year, which is why I wouldn't necessarily be thrilled about prioritizing Huerter.

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Well sure, he's not my dream acquisition or anything, nor is he my number one target. You don't pass up on a better player for Huerter, or orient your teambuilding in his direction, or spent 5 picks on him. I'm just talking about guys who might be potentially gettable that could be good folks to have on the team. Like you said, Huerter playing 25 minutes as your 6th or 7th guy is really good. I want us to be good, so I want good players going as deep as we can get them.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Well sure, he's not my dream acquisition or anything, nor is he my number one target. You don't pass up on a better player for Huerter, or orient your teambuilding in his direction, or spent 5 picks on him. I'm just talking about guys who might be potentially gettable that could be good folks to have on the team. Like you said, Huerter playing 25 minutes as your 6th or 7th guy is really good. I want us to be good, so I want good players going as deep as we can get them.

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Absolutely on board with that. If you come out of the offseason with Lowry, Huerter, and Bojan without giving up too much in terms of future assets, that's similar to the Hawks offseason last year and could catapult you into the top half of the Western Conference.

I know our history, but as a fan hope renews eternally (I hope)

Griffin is pushing and the coach is listening to playing our young core more. I'm really interested to see what Kira and NAW can bring with more playtime, both in minutes and consistency
Our new coach will probably be the best we've had at relating to and motivating players
Videos of Adams working on his outside shot this summer. I don't know if it will actually amount to everything but if he can stop clogging the paint on offense then a 1-2 punch with him and Hayes gets real interesting.
We seem fine with not overpaying Lonzo. I wish he became more consistent and we could get a good valued contract with him but I am glad we are not throwing away cap space and flexibility to make the AD trade look better.
It seems like the organization has heard the wake up call.
Bledsoe has some value as an essentially expiring contract and at the very least will not be on the floor much if at all for us. His attitude and approach in most games was becoming infectious. Just him not being there for 30minutes plus will be an improvement and could be enough to get into the playoffs.

Last season felt like a long slow motion train wreck and wasted year. It does look like management sees and acknowledges the main issues and are working at making things better.

This is what a true professional does to get better...

3 hours ago – via William Guillory @ The Athletic

Another thing to keep an eye on: Adams has been working a lot this offseason on his 3-point shot. I’m not saying he’s going to become Brook Lopez all of a sudden, but I’ve been told he’s serious about adding an outside shot to his arsenal with the hope that it’ll extend his career.

One source told me he’s been in the gym this summer, working out three times a day to be more consistent with his outside stroke. When asked how Adams has looked in these workouts, the source exclaimed, “He’s been shooting the snot out of the ball!” 3 hours ago – via William Guillory @ The Athletic

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Originally Posted by As I See It

This is what a true professional does to get better...

3 hours ago – via William Guillory @ The Athletic

Another thing to keep an eye on: Adams has been working a lot this offseason on his 3-point shot. I’m not saying he’s going to become Brook Lopez all of a sudden, but I’ve been told he’s serious about adding an outside shot to his arsenal with the hope that it’ll extend his career.

One source told me he’s been in the gym this summer, working out three times a day to be more consistent with his outside stroke. When asked how Adams has looked in these workouts, the source exclaimed, “He’s been shooting the snot out of the ball!” 3 hours ago – via William Guillory @ The Athletic

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Fred should prob get w/ him. Maybe he wants to stay w/ us and knows that's what it takes.

I think Adams wasn't happy with his play last year so he's really trying to get better

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Originally Posted by AusPel

I think Adams wasn't happy with his play last year so he's really trying to get better

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I kind of feel bad for Adams, because a month into the season... He was doing pretty solid. I think after that 20 Reb game against the Bucks late January... He just fell off a cliff from that low leg injury.

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Originally Posted by Taker597

I kind of feel bad for Adams, because a month into the season... He was doing pretty solid. I think after that 20 Reb game against the Bucks late January... He just fell off a cliff from that low leg injury.

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For real. He started and closed the season well but there was a pretty significant stretch in the middle where he was visibly injured and the fanbase was largely unsympathetic to it.

I really liked Adams for the system. I haven't even begun to look into Green or what he might run, here. Who even knows. We think he'll take elements of GS and the Suns over but he might have his own plan. Adams working out the 3 makes him a lot more versatile, though.

You see this running off a screen with Zion slashing wyd pic.twitter.com/ozvSkPqSd2

— coop �� (@glikecoop) July 23, 2021

MOVE...OVER...STEPH!!!

LOVE the do-over also lolz.

Adams doesn’t have to be a three point shooter just get real good from 18 feet-in and make his free throws at about a 73% clip. That’s all he needs.

He needs to learn how to shoot FTs before worrying about hitting open 3 pointers in practice. That way he would not be completely unplayable late in games.

Cameron Payne did a pretty decent job coming off bench in place of CP. Does he follow Willie here in free agency?

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Originally Posted by 13 - 3

Cameron Payne did a pretty decent job coming off bench in place of CP. Does he follow Willie here in free agency?

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It's crazy how if you had said that about Cam 3 or 4 years ago, it would have sounded like a sarcastic joke but today in 2021 it's a fair question. Cam Payne really turned his career around in the last 18 months or so. He went from being basically out of the league, to playing good playoff minutes for a team that reached the Finals.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

It's crazy how if you had said that about Cam 3 or 4 years ago, it would have sounded like a sarcastic joke but today in 2021 it's a fair question. Cam Payne really turned his career around in the last 18 months or so. He went from being basically out of the league, to playing good playoff minutes for a team that reached the Finals.

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True story... I live in Frisco, TX and I took my son to see the Texas Legends (Mavericks G League team) play... their stadium is 10 mins from my house. This was pre-covid, of course. Cam Payne played for them and when I saw him I was like wow... a Cam Payne sighting. I hadn't seen nor heard form him in a couple years.

He was out there with the G Leaguers and he was terrible. Couldn't shoot. Turning the ball over. Making terrible transition decisions.

I don't think Monty picked him up based on his G League play, but shout out to Cam Payne for making the most out of his opportunity. After watching him in Frisco there's no way I'd believe he would have the run that he's had this season.

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Originally Posted by DroopyDawg

True story... I live in Frisco, TX and I took my son to see the Texas Legends (Mavericks G League team) play... their stadium is 10 mins from my house. This was pre-covid, of course. Cam Payne played for them and when I saw him I was like wow... a Cam Payne sighting. I hadn't seen nor heard form him in a couple years.

He was out there with the G Leaguers and he was terrible. Couldn't shoot. Turning the ball over. Making terrible transition decisions.

I don't think Monty picked him up based on his G League play, but shout out to Cam Payne for making the most out of his opportunity. After watching him in Frisco there's no way I'd believe he would have the run that he's had this season.

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I'm in Frisco as well. He with a few others use to get a quick run at 24hr on preston. I went to game he scored 43 in, no one on iowa could stop him.

Good luck

FELIZ de poder vivir unos juegos en familia… ❤️ @juanchiviris41 #Tokyo2020 pic.twitter.com/86As7RSzf3

— Willy Hernang?mez Geuer (@willyhg94) July 23, 2021

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Originally Posted by superstar7th

I'm in Frisco as well. He with a few others use to get a quick run at 24hr on preston. I went to game he scored 43 in, no one on iowa could stop him.

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Dang he went off.

Maybe a silly path to head down, but what was Toronto’s defense like with Lowery and VanVleet on the court together? Point being, can two “short” guards co-exist together in today’s NBA?

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Originally Posted by ramsters60

Maybe a silly path to head down, but what was Toronto’s defense like with Lowery and VanVleet on the court together? Point being, can two “short” guards co-exist together in today’s NBA?

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Agreed!! (See Portland Trailblazers)

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Originally Posted by As I See It

Agreed!! (See Portland Trailblazers)

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Thanks for the prompt response! I still might sound like an idiot, but personally I might go after both Lowery and Sexton....

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Originally Posted by ramsters60

Maybe a silly path to head down, but what was Toronto’s defense like with Lowery and VanVleet on the court together? Point being, can two “short” guards co-exist together in today’s NBA?

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They were good together! Both of them have very positive on/off stats, and their two man combination raised the team's STL% by about 3.5% when on the floor. In fact, despite being a bad team overall, the Raptors had weirdly solid stats as a team this year in general: 15th in DRtg overall despite - as you say - playing two very small guards all the time.

What's the difference between a team like Toronto and a team like Portland, who also play two small guards together?

Well, one is the supporting cast. Toronto has surrounded their small guards with Chris Boucher, Pascal Siakam, OG Anunoby, and so on. Defense is a team thing, and you can afford one or two small guys if your team overall is good defensively: Portland doesn't have that. We, right now, also do not have that.

But most significantly, both VanVleet and Lowry are very good defenders who play hard on that end, play physically, and have very good feel. By contrast, both CJ and Lillard can't be bothered on the defensive end about 85% of the time, and whenever they do try they look kind of lost. Part of that lost-ness is, I think, because they don't do it very often: defense can be sort of ''use it or lose it'' and they never use it so it's... gone.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

They were good together! Both of them have very positive on/off stats, and their two man combination raised the team's STL% by about 3.5% when on the floor. In fact, despite being a bad team overall, the Raptors had weirdly solid stats as a team this year in general: 15th in DRtg overall despite - as you say - playing two very small guards all the time.

What's the difference between a team like Toronto and a team like Portland, who also play two small guards together?

Well, one is the supporting cast. Toronto has surrounded their small guards with Chris Boucher, Pascal Siakam, OG Anunoby, and so on. Defense is a team thing, and you can afford one or two small guys if your team overall is good defensively: Portland doesn't have that. We, right now, also do not have that.

But most significantly, both VanVleet and Lowry are very good defenders who play hard on that end, play physically, and have very good feel. By contrast, both CJ and Lillard can't be bothered on the defensive end about 85% of the time, and whenever they do try they look kind of lost. Part of that lost-ness is, I think, because they don't do it very often: defense can be sort of ''use it or lose it'' and they never use it so it's... gone.

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thanks for this! very well done as usual.... I like Lowry alot, but he is getting a little long in the tooth....personally, I very much enjoy watching Sexton play too....if they could hold their own defensively, please sign me up....

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Originally Posted by ramsters60

thanks for this! very well done as usual.... I like Lowry alot, but he is getting a little long in the tooth....personally, I very much enjoy watching Sexton play too....if they could hold their own defensively, please sign me up....

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Sexton is kind of a different matter, he's pretty dreadful on D. The positive with him, at least theoretically, is that he's young and could improve (he's 22, hasn't improved much on D in his first 3 seasons, and wasn't great on D in college either so I don't hold out too much hope, but still) but I'm not really sure how much I buy that.

Sexton's an odd situation. If you just look at his slashline of 48/37/82, that's obviously very positive. Managed to get just above league average TS%. Took a step up as a passer this year.

But overall, I can't get myself excited about him. This is his fourth year so he's due a big payday and he's extremely poor on defense, is a below average finisher at the rim, and despite his back-ups not being too good his on/off numbers are terrible (-1.9 this year: other team's ORtgs are +4.5 per 100 better with Sexton on the floor), and while the passing was better this year than in the past, it's still not great. He doesn't turn it over that much but he misses so many passes that are just obvious. When those rumours came out earlier this year that other teams would trash talk Cavs players about how Sexton never passes them the ball, I wasn't surprised.

From this article: https://theathletic.com/2560840/2021...than-it-looks/

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Various Cavs players still grow frustrated by the way Sexton dominates the ball, and opponents taunt them by saying during games, “you know he’s not going to pass you the ball.”

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Yikes