NBA DRAFT 2020 DISCUSSION

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

6 is fine. I'd give up 13, 42, and Lonzo to get Hayes, Okongwu, or Haliburton. But I wouldnt give up Lonzo, 13, and 42 to move up to #1 or #2 - even for the same players.

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I'd give up Lonzo and 42 to get Hayes. Would be reluctant to give up 42 as well, honestly, as petty as it sounds (and I know it sounds petty).

Would absolutely not do so for Haliburton.

Haliburton will be seen as one of the best leaders in the league in 5 years - thats my prediction. And I see no leadership in Ingram or Lonzo. I can pick apart some of Haliburton's game (I hate that he doesnt get to the line, for instance) but I think this team needs leadership and a culture and those guys are hard to find. I am willing to bet that Haliburton is THE leader to come out of this draft. I'd happily give up picks for that. And to me, getting rid of Lonzo is just an added bonus

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Haliburton will be seen as one of the best leaders in the league in 5 years - thats my prediction. And I see no leadership in Ingram or Lonzo. I can pick apart some of Haliburton's game (I hate that he doesnt get to the line, for instance) but I think this team needs leadership and a culture and those guys are hard to find. I am willing to bet that Haliburton is THE leader to come out of this draft. I'd happily give up picks for that. And to me, getting rid of Lonzo is just an added bonus

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Well, I agree with that statement about Ingram and Lonzo (best be careful: whenever I say anything critical about Ingram someone crawls out of the woodwork to cry about me picking on him :hihi:).

I think ultimately, mentality hits a wall when the skill is simply insufficient. Take someone like Pat Beverley: I absolutely believe that he cares, nobody is more vocal than him, he's seems to hate losing and isn't afraid to tell anyone, etc. None of it matters because he's just not an effective NBA player in several key ways, and as a result he's nothing more than a decent roleplayer depending on team context.

As well, I think it also depends what I think Lonzo's market is. If I have good reason to suspect that Lonzo has no market value, then I guess you can just look at it as a pure pick trade and see losing Lonzo as a free positive that costs you nothing. But if I have any reason to suspect that Lonzo has value as a tradeable asset on his own, then giving him up as a freebie would just be bad value.

That's something I have no real insight into, but you would expect Griff and the rest of the front office would know.

Just a reminder, because it crossed my Twitter timeline, of pre-college sample sizes in offensive efficiency.

Here's the TS% of various bigs in this class and last year from their EYBL sample.

Onyeka Okongwu: 75.9%
Bol Bol: 73.8%
Isaiah Stewart: 60.5%
James Wiseman: 52.7%

Shooting sub-55% TS at any pre-college level is a really poor sign for bigs moving into the NBA. It's really hard to excuse unless they're exceptionally young for their class or if they started basketball extremely late or something. Then there tends to be more leeway.

It was better in college but then, Wiseman only played 3 games in college, and all of them against not-great teams iirc.

KOC says the Pelicans are a team looking to move up in the draft.

— Kevin Barrios (@kevinbforbounce) November 3, 2020

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Jrue, JJ, Lonzo must be on the table

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Well, I agree with that statement about Ingram and Lonzo (best be careful: whenever I say anything critical about Ingram someone crawls out of the woodwork to cry about me picking on him :hihi:).

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You rang permanent Ingram shader?

I broached the idea of using a package to move up to get Hayes about a month ago... and was met with a bunch of "NO". Now it's and idea?

This draft has people changing with every breeze :hihi:

His methodical pace worries me. He can of course get the skill level needed to play at that speed, but he might not.

I'd rather go after that speed demon.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

I broached the idea of using a package to move up to get Hayes about a month ago... and was met with a bunch of "NO". Now it's and idea?

This draft has people changing with every breeze :hihi:

His methodical pace worries me. He can of course get the skill level needed to play at that speed, but he might not.

I'd rather go after that speed demon.

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Not every PG needs to be Ja Morant

Hayes reminds me a bit of Conley and that's fine

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Originally Posted by AusPel

Not every PG needs to be Ja Morant

Hayes reminds me a bit of Conley and that's fine

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This draft is too unpredictable to me. Hayes seems like a boom or bust type (as are many at the top). I could see the Pels looking to move up for a player like Williams.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

This draft is too unpredictable to me. Hayes seems like a boom or bust type (as are many at the top). I could see the Pels looking to move up for a player like Williams.

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I don't see Hayes as boom/bust at all. He's as safe a prospect as you ever really get in the draft: I'm absolutely confident that, even at his floor, he will be a competent NBA player for the next decade. Whether that's as a starter or backup depends on various factors, but he's not going to 'bust' in that, I very much doubt he flames out of the league.

For me, trading up for him all depends on what the package is. This is not a high value draft. I would be extremely reluctant to move up to get anyone if it meant giving significant assets.

Now, if it's a case of, say, Detroit being willing to take Lonzo and 13 for 7 (or some variation of that) then sure, I'd be interested. If they wanted Lonzo and 13 and a 2021 FRP (even heavily protected) then I'm far less interested.

It all depends on the deal. I like Hayes a lot, I think he's going to be a good NBA player for some time, but the likelihood of him being a superstar is fairly small (as is true for everyone in this draft, hence the general disdain for it) and therefore you have to be careful that you're not giving up superstar value for him.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

This draft is too unpredictable to me. Hayes seems like a boom or bust type (as are many at the top). I could see the Pels looking to move up for a player like Williams.

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It's just not worth giving up assets to move up 3 spots in this draft, unless it only took Miller or Jackson or something

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Originally Posted by AusPel

It's just not worth giving up assets to move up 3 spots in this draft, unless it only took Miller or Jackson or something

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Why are you saying 3 spots? This draft is so unpredictable, who knows where teams project the players?

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Originally Posted by AusPel

It's just not worth giving up assets to move up 3 spots in this draft, unless it only took Miller or Jackson or something

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So, you wouldnt have given up assets if you could go back in time and get Herro instead of NAW?

If you LOVE a guy, it is the absolute best time to trade assets for a player IMO. You get him in your organization from the beginning of his career. He grows with you and your new coach and GM who each have 4 years on their new deals. You choose the right guy and he is a foundation piece that grows with your organization.

How much would you give up to go from 10 to 6 in 2012 when we drafted Rivers, and could have had Lillard? Or heck, in 2010 we had the 11th pick and Paul George went #10. We gave up our 2011 first for Jerryd Bayless a few months later. Would you rather have Cole Aldrich and Bayless or George?

If you LOVE a guy and think he will be a core piece for you and you are pretty sure he wont be there when you pick, go be aggressive. What was the point of getting all these picks if we arent going to use them for guys we think can be core pieces?

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

So, you wouldnt have given up assets if you could go back in time and get Herro instead of NAW?

If you LOVE a guy, it is the absolute best time to trade assets for a player IMO. You get him in your organization from the beginning of his career. He grows with you and your new coach and GM who each have 4 years on their new deals. You choose the right guy and he is a foundation piece that grows with your organization.

How much would you give up to go from 10 to 6 in 2012 when we drafted Rivers, and could have had Lillard? Or heck, in 2010 we had the 11th pick and Paul George went #10. We gave up our 2011 first for Jerryd Bayless a few months later. Would you rather have Cole Aldrich and Bayless or George?

If you LOVE a guy and think he will be a core piece for you and you are pretty sure he wont be there when you pick, go be aggressive. What was the point of getting all these picks if we arent going to use them for guys we think can be core pieces?

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Stockpile them for when the next disgruntled star becomes available

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Originally Posted by AusPel

Stockpile them for when the next disgruntled star becomes available

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You are talking to the guy who started that movement. But my point is that if you believe in a guy so much so that you think he will become a star with your core, you give up an asset now to go get him. Lets say we give up 13 and next years 1st to move up to 7 to get our guy.... we still have all the Lakers picks, all our picks and everything we might get in Jrue trade and/or a JJ trade at the deadline.

Also, if you look at a lot of the future stars who might eventually ask out....several are in the West and historically those guys get traded to the opposite conference and/or a large market. I like stocking up the war chest for core pieces, but my point is that if you are very confident you identified a core piece in this draft, you can actually get him cheaper than if you try to go get a core piece star. You could never get a star for 13 and say the 18th pick next year. But if you identify the 'next star' in this draft, you can by being aggressive and getting him now

I think Vassell and Okungwu will be very good players maybe not star but not busts. I think Okungwu could be like Tristan Thompson and Vassell a cross between Bridges and Malik Beasley. Please let us come out of this draft with these 2 guys. The core of Vassell, BI, Zion, and Okungwu will be great.

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Originally Posted by tdcreator

Okungwu

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His name is Okongwu.

Wonder if we are trading up for Vassel or Patrick Williams if we do trade up

I think SVG is gonna play Zion at center a lot especially against smaller ones, Patrick Williams would be the perfect PF next to him, can run with him, defend and space the floor

I if was gonna move up for a PG, I'd move up a few spots for Halliburton instead of a larger move for Hayes. Assuming they get picked according to consensus.

Any combination of Lewis, Hayes, or Halliburton might still be there at 13. Who the hell knows.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

I if was gonna move up for a PG, I'd move up a few spots for Halliburton instead of a larger move for Hayes. Assuming they get picked according to consensus.

Any combination of Lewis, Hayes, or Halliburton might still be there at 13. Who the hell knows.

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Kira would probably still be there, the other two I think are likely to be gone.

Honestly, I would vastly prefer Kira to Hali anyway: I think he has a much clearer and more realistic path to NBA impact.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

I if was gonna move up for a PG, I'd move up a few spots for Halliburton instead of a larger move for Hayes. Assuming they get picked according to consensus.

Any combination of Lewis, Hayes, or Halliburton might still be there at 13. Who the hell knows.

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If you are gonna move up, you dont do it as a 'value buy' IMO

By that, I mean that if you are the Pels and you are giving up assets for players, your goal is to get long term core pieces. Not to get good, solid players. So, go get the guy you believe in the most and pay what it costs, even if it is an overpay. Because if you get your big three, filling around them is the easy part. The hard part is getting the 3rd big guy. So, if you think Hayes is 15% better, but costs 20% more - you go get him.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Kira would probably still be there, the other two I think are likely to be gone.

Honestly, I would vastly prefer Kira to Hali anyway: I think he has a much clearer and more realistic path to NBA impact.

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My buddy in the league told me about a week ago that the worst kept secret in the league is that the Suns are taking Kira at 10. The guy I think we should discuss more is Terry at 13. He is the PG most likely to go in our range

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

My buddy in the league told me about a week ago that the worst kept secret in the league is that the Suns are taking Kira at 10. The guy I think we should discuss more is Terry at 13. He is the PG most likely to go in our range

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Tyrell Terry? Not sure I'd take him quite that high. I like him, but if he was on the board at the same time as someone like Maxey, I'd take Maxey first. Terry is decent though, he wouldn't be a disastrous pick or anything.

Some of y'all want to hoard these late 1st/2nd round picks. If the Pels see a guy they want, make those things rain! In a draft like this, guys might be rated close to eachother, but if you value a player higher than the rest, go get them.

Money GIF from Dollar GIFs

I think we have to start looking into the 2021 draft. Its the huge chip Golden State can throw us. I have 7 guys right now who I'd probably take ahead if anyone in the 2020 draft. Imagine the Warriors offering us the first AND second pick in this draft --- thats kind of the value I think we are getting if that Minny pick lands around 5 or 6 next year

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

I think we have to start looking into the 2021 draft. Its the huge chip Golden State can throw us. I have 7 guys right now who I'd probably take ahead if anyone in the 2020 draft. Imagine the Warriors offering us the first AND second pick in this draft --- thats kind of the value I think we are getting if that Minny pick lands around 5 or 6 next year

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I've been occasionally posting about the 2021 draft in this thread since like, May or something :hihi: way ahead of you.

I think I'd go even further than 7. I think I could make a plausible argument for about 11 players in next years draft at least having a solid swing at #1 this year. Which is a testament both to how strong next year's class is, and how dreadful the 2020 one is.

Top Shooters at NBA Combine Drills (Spot-Up 3s)

Jordan Nwora (82%)
Skylar Mays (76%)
Mason Jones (74%)
Cassius Winston (74%)
Robert Woodard (74%)
Markus Howard (74%)
Grant Riller (74%)
Immanuel Quickley (72%)

next 5: Ty-Shon Alexander, Xavier Tillman, Killian Tillie,
KJ Martin

— Jonathan Givony (@DraftExpress) November 5, 2020

Oh no.

Someone's gonna take Jordan Nwora in the first round.

That's gonna be a mistake.

Note that clutch Tillman potential tho >.>

Pelican Debrief has me really liking Reggie Perry in the 2nd.

I know some might not like it, but I wouldn't mind taking a swing at Aleksej Pokusevski at 13

What would it take to get both Myles Turner and Oladipo

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Originally Posted by HornetGuru

What would it take to get both Myles Turner and Oladipo

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Jrue, Miller and 2 2nds could work

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Originally Posted by rebelman

I know some might not like it, but I wouldn't mind taking a swing at Aleksej Pokusevski at 13

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Yeeeeeeeah. If he reaches his potential, he fits the SVG system like a glove. He could be the 1 in or one of the 4 out....he could either be the ball handler or the screener on the pick n roll. Can be our rim protector on D and rebounds well. He really matches up next to Zion excellent because Zion could hide his weaknesses.

If this were another draft, it may be good to look elsewhere but with the other options not being amazing, he may be worth the risk. And we have the time to let him develop.

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Originally Posted by superstar7th

Jrue, Miller and 2 2nds could work

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That’s it? Sign me up

I think people aren't understanding JVG as a coach. He doesn't really have one style. What he used in Orlando wasn't used in Detroit or Miami. Most likely won't be used here.

That is the hallmark of a good coach. Pops has had runs in San Antonio where they are fast paced and score 115 point per game. Then he's had runs where they are slow as snails and barely score 95. He's won both ways.

SVG has already said he likes the pace Gentry had the team at, and don't be surprised if they keep that pace next year.

Also don't be surprised in Griff starts putting his paw prints on the type of team he'd like to see as well.

SVG has liked pace. So it's not like it's something he normally doesn't do but he'll keep it because Gentry had the team built for it. And history shows that he does adapt to a team when he firsts gets there but that he does quickly begin to get the FO to shape the team into something that runs his 1 in 4 out offense. Like in Detroit, he didn't have the perimeter shooter at first so he PnRed like no tomorrow. Then he traded for Ilyasova and got more shooters so that he could better implement his system. Yes, he does add elements to it and adapts it.....but he definitely prefers to have one big with playmaking skills chilling inside and a bunch of people who can cut and shoot around him.

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Originally Posted by msusousaphone

SVG has liked pace. So it's not like it's something he normally doesn't do but he'll keep it because Gentry had the team built for it. And history shows that he does adapt to a team when he firsts gets there but that he does quickly begin to get the FO to shape the team into something that runs his 1 in 4 out offense. Like in Detroit, he didn't have the perimeter shooter at first so he PnRed like no tomorrow. Then he traded for Ilyasova and got more shooters so that he could better implement his system. Yes, he does add elements to it and adapts it.....but he definitely prefers to have one big with playmaking skills chilling inside and a bunch of people who can cut and shoot around him.

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He said he likes pace. However, I do not think his teams have ever been in the top 10 in pace.

The difference between being 3rd in pace and say 11th is like 1 extra shot per half

Pace isn't about run and gun. Its about how quickly you get into your set in the half court and THATS whats important IMO.

I'd love to be a team that starts running my set with 19 on the shot clock and if I dont get a good shot from my first play, I still got time to run other actions. That team will be better offensively than the one who doesn't start until 15 secs on the clock

That is what matters

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

The difference between being 3rd in pace and say 11th is like 1 extra shot per half

Pace isn't about run and gun. Its about how quickly you get into your set in the half court and THATS whats important IMO.

I'd love to be a team that starts running my set with 19 on the shot clock and if I dont get a good shot from my first play, I still got time to run other actions. That team will be better offensively than the one who doesn't start until 15 secs on the clock

That is what matters

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Under Gentry I think our focus on pace was a bit chaotic at times and caused rebounding and defensive issues. I do not expect that with SVG.

Yeah. I'm mostly regurgitating the articles I've been reading and taking their word for it. Not sure how accurate they are.

Interesting side note, on this date 10 years ago, your New Orleans Hornets just vanquished the hot Wade, LeBron, and Bosh Heat to go to 5-0.

Draft in 12 days! Lol

Jordan Nwora would be an ideal pick in the 2nd round if available. I havnt been able to figure out why he he isnt rated higher on draft boards. Most write-ups Ive seen on him call out his athleticism.......


just watch the 40 seconds of this video and judge his athleticism for yourself

https://youtu.be/I8uXcvQaEG4

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Originally Posted by fullcourtpress

Jordan Nwora would be an ideal pick in the 2nd round if available. I havnt been able to figure out why he he isnt rated higher on draft boards. Most write-ups Ive seen on him call out his athleticism.......


just watch the 40 seconds of this video and judge his athleticism for yourself

https://youtu.be/I8uXcvQaEG4

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It might be because there are other things in basketball than 40 second highlight clips.

I'll give you a breakdown from my perspective of his overall game, of why I wouldn't take him top 40.

Pros:
- Good C&S shooter with NBA range.
- Fairly strong, although not outlier strong, and seems to know how to use the strength reasonably well.
- Handle is adequate for his position.
- Reasonably solid team defender, with decent footwork. Closes out well on the perimeter, tends to know where to be, stunts and digs consistently.
- Defends the post pretty well, using his strength to ground himself and prevents himself from being bowled over.
- Is able to execute basic passes within an offense.

Cons:
- Mediocre lateral quickness.
- Lack of vertical pop: he's got a decent max vert, it seems, but he's a slow-load jumper most of the time.
- Pretty sub-par finisher around the rim over several years in college, struggles mightily in traffic (52% at the rim last year, 44% this year in the halfcourt)
- Very little burst
- Isn't a great relocater after giving the ball up which is a shame because that's huge for maximising shooting
- Pretty much no ability to create his own shot off the dribble. Not very efficient in his motions, and isn't decisive with movements. Dribbles slowly, and doesn't handle pressure very well (TOV% almost doubles his AST% all three years of college)
- Very little passing upside. Almost all of his passing is done from pre-determined situations: he doesn't read defenses actively, and his vision is poor. This is a problem someone like Jalen Smith also has, but at least Smith has more of a handle to make more out of non-passing situations.
- Not a rim protector at all. Slow leap-building hinders it, and he doesn't really cover ground extremely well either, which makes his ability to come out of the paint and then recover pretty problematic.
- Defense isn't very switchable. His feet aren't particularly fast and whenever he's put in a situation that requires hip-switching his footwork is really bad, he's prone to getting them tangled. There would be a lot of work needed just to fix that issue, and that doesn't even address the speed and fluidity issues, or the lateral quickness problems.

So you see, while there's definitely some upside for him, there's a lot to find issues with as well. If he gets picked in the mid-to-late 2nd round that's probably fine, but he's not a first rounder.

All I say again is they better not be afraid to trade down. And having this many 2nd round picks is a good thing.

The NBA draft routinely has All-Star level to very solid starters picked throughout the draft. And too many absolute duds in the top 10.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

All I say again is they better not be afraid to trade down. And having this many 2nd round picks is a good thing.

The NBA draft routinely has All-Star level to very solid starters picked throughout the draft. And too many absolute duds in the top 10.

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Why would they want to trade down? Certainly not to accumulate more picks in this draft. Maybe if it brought a future 1st I could see it.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

Why would they want to trade down? Certainly not to accumulate more picks in this draft. Maybe if it brought a future 1st I could see it.

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Sure. I'd trade #13 and all three seconds for the Cavs' unprotected first rounder in 2021. :D

They will most likely try to trade up or stay put. Can?t see them trading down. It?s more likely that they sell a couple of those 2nd round pick for cash.

I'm curious as to whom David Griffin would be interested in moving up for

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

Why would they want to trade down? Certainly not to accumulate more picks in this draft. Maybe if it brought a future 1st I could see it.

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Doesn't have to be for picks in this draft. There are multiple options: Part of a trade package; picks in future years; picks this year and a future year.

Main point is if there is poor value for whoever is on the board at 13, then move. Dont force anything at that spot.

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Originally Posted by Mount Zion

Sure. I'd trade #13 and all three seconds for the Cavs' unprotected first rounder in 2021. :D

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Big same lol

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Top Shooters at NBA Combine Drills (Spot-Up 3s)

Jordan Nwora (82%)
Skylar Mays (76%)
Mason Jones (74%)
Cassius Winston (74%)
Robert Woodard (74%)
Markus Howard (74%)
Grant Riller (74%)
Immanuel Quickley (72%)

next 5: Ty-Shon Alexander, Xavier Tillman, Killian Tillie,
KJ Martin

— Jonathan Givony (@DraftExpress) November 5, 2020

Oh no.

Someone's gonna take Jordan Nwora in the first round.

That's gonna be a mistake.

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I bet Lonzo probably kill a spot up 3 drill in practice... I don't see any real merit in shooting drills.