If you could get one thing from Zion negotiation....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

I don?t wonder at all. I actively enjoy it :)

---

Touche!

What do we think that Zion's 100% outcome looks like defensively this season? Is it an elite weakside rim protector who struggles in space?

I think he can be close to the league lead in blocks and steals while being vulnerable on switches and isos. I would be super happy with that outcome if the defensive rebounding is good. It's easy to forget, but he definitely turned a corner in the final quarter or so of the season in 2021. I think live crowds and of course conditioning will help his defensive energy as well

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eman5805

That 5% isn't true because he says it. It isn't untrue because I say it. Just watch and enjoy what you choose to.

The rest will do what it will. None of this matters anyway. So why me worry?

---

Correct. It?s just my opinion. Probably correct, but just an opinion nonetheless

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Correct. It?s just my opinion. Probably correct, but just an opinion nonetheless

---

The issue with what you're saying, and I think you know this, is there's no way to form a logical argument against it. So I'll just let it be

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pelafanatic

The issue with what you're saying, and I think you know this, is there's no way to form a logical argument against it. So I'll just let it be

---

True; but there sure is a way to form a logical argument for it. We have a replete history to draw upon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by As I See It

True; but there sure is a way to form a logical argument for it. We have a replete history to draw upon.

---

If you're going off of history, 5% is illogical. It's more like .5%. Just a useless exercise

The use I find in it is I dont let winning a title be the barometer for what I think decision making should be. I said this prior to last year -- I would take a fun team with guys I like, who I am happy to root for over a title with mercenaries and guys I dont really like any day. Give me the Nuggets from 2017-2022 over the Lakers from 2017-2022 any day.

Of course you want both. Just saying I dont think the title will ever come, so go draft guys who are fun to root for. Trade idiots, punks, and selfish dudes - even if it is for lesser, more likeable players.

When you write off the title as a possibility or dont see that as the be all, end all, I think you could actually build a more enjoyable entertainment experience. And thats all it is - entertainment

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by As I See It

True; but there sure is a way to form a logical argument for it. We have a replete history to draw upon.

---

What is the logical argument for using the performance of a team that had 100% different players, coaches, ownership, etc as a prediction for the performance of a current team? Can I use Jordans Bulls to predict the performance of the current Bulls squad?

We're in the sweet spot and need to embrace it instead of being terrified of what's around every corner. I believe that the Pelicans already have that likeable fun team in place and I also happen to think that, through internal growth, this team legitimately has what it takes to become a contender in the very near future. I actually think we can have our cake and eat it too if things break right for us. I get that your point, though, is that 95% of the time things don't break right for small market teams like ours who have superstars that may not be 100% committed to the city and the franchise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

The use I find in it is I dont let winning a title be the barometer for what I think decision making should be. I said this prior to last year -- I would take a fun team with guys I like, who I am happy to root for over a title with mercenaries and guys I dont really like any day. Give me the Nuggets from 2017-2022 over the Lakers from 2017-2022 any day.

Of course you want both. Just saying I dont think the title will ever come, so go draft guys who are fun to root for. Trade idiots, punks, and selfish dudes - even if it is for lesser, more likeable players.

When you write off the title as a possibility or dont see that as the be all, end all, I think you could actually build a more enjoyable entertainment experience. And thats all it is - entertainment

---

I think this is where words matter. Yes we are "entertained" by watching sports, but is sports REALLY entertainment? To me, "ENTERTAINMENT" would be watching a movie, or a play, or a comedy show. Sports is more "COMPETITION", where you are entertained by it, but the outcome isn't predetermined, and there's a winner and a loser.

sports is a competition when you are participating. It is entertainment when you are watching. While the outcome isnt known, you cant impact it. And you dont know the outcome of most plays or movies either. You are there to be entertained. And just as Ryan Gosling or Brie Larson dont know who you are or care, the same holds true for the players who are entertaining you on the court or on the field. They just seem different because you see their performance live, but its the same thing. For some reason, people get more emotionally attached to sports to movies, though, and that makes sense to me when it involves your community but nothing about the New Orleans Pelicans is New Orleans. The players are all from different places, many live in other cities too when the season is over. Same for most/all in the front office. So this idea of rooting for our city vs some other city....I just dont buy that. But that depends on how you view the Ship of Theseus.

Its just another form of entertainment to distract you from life. No different than any other IMO, unless you can gain some benefit from it financially or a friend/family member is directly impacted

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Would this make people feel better --

I (truly) believe the Pelicans have about a 5% chance of winning a title in the next 20 years, at which point I believe sports, society, and the world at large only has about a 35% chance of still existing.

For that 5% to happen, a truly rare outlier event will have to happen (think Giannis falling to the Bucks. And having a superstar that is that humble and hard working and desiring to stay in a city most Americans do not consider a premium place to live)

So, I shall not use never again. I will just say extremely unlikely, and yes I do believe that society, human existence, etc could easily be done by 2045-ish at the rate things are going.

---

I think there's a decent chance that modern society crumbles in the next 20-25 years, sure. But to say mankind won't exist in 20-25 years seems truly pessimistic. You'd have to explain your concerns there to help me understand your thinking.

It’s as simple as this…look at the tools and means we have had to wipe each other out on a mass level over say the first million years of existence. Now, look at advancements in like the last 20. Imagine the rate of the next 20 years has that same rate of advancement and multiply that by the amount of fear generated by stupidly giving everyone a voice and I can’t see any reality in which we don’t wipe ourselves out within the next 100 years. Next 50 years? More likely we are gone than not for sure. Next 25 years? A good chance we have done it IMO

I play the game Civilization a lot. My belief is we are in the endgame now when you look at history of this planet as a whole. We certainly aren’t in the beginning or the middle. Hug your loved ones. It’s gonna be over sooner than you think

OK, I just got here and it's "doomsday" talk? Lighten up Francis and tell me how great Herb is gonna be and how quickly we are gonna pass the Grizz.

BTW: Seriously, I see no way civilization can continue, as we know it, barring a benevolent dictator coming to our rescue. I'd volunteer...but I'm kinda busy at the moment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

It’s as simple as this…look at the tools and means we have had to wipe each other out on a mass level over say the first million years of existence. Now, look at advancements in like the last 20. Imagine the rate of the next 20 years has that same rate of advancement and multiply that by the amount of fear generated by stupidly giving everyone a voice and I can’t see any reality in which we don’t wipe ourselves out within the next 100 years. Next 50 years? More likely we are gone than not for sure. Next 25 years? A good chance we have done it IMO

I play the game Civilization a lot. My belief is we are in the endgame now when you look at history of this planet as a whole. We certainly aren’t in the beginning or the middle. Hug your loved ones. It’s gonna be over sooner than you think

---

Pretty interesting when all the richest people on the world are itching to get off the planet. Is it just money flexing or seeing a collapse decades before it happens? Who knows.

New Russillo @Spotify Pod

David Griffin-Pelicans
The turnaround and draft success
Zion’s future in New Orleans@davidfaber of @CNBC

His career/Daily Market reaction
The cycles of the last 20yrs
And trying to understand the future

Life Advicehttps://t.co/Xzp0SyO8N2

— Russillo (@ryenarussillo) June 9, 2022

Sounds like, if the deal isn't already done, it is super close. Definitely going to be some injury protections

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Upper Decker

And you wonder why people don't like you.

---

People will be less vexed by what he posts/tweets, if once they realize two things.

He's neither an optimist nor a pessimist. He's a contrarian. Kyrie Irving is also a contrarian. You say the earth is round, he'll take the position that the earth is flat.

He's not an NBA Insider, but that doesn't mean he doesn't give you well thought out and reasoned conjecture.

Both of those things make him the perfect message board participant. I'm glad he's around.

What's more likely between Zion signing a 3rd contract with us and society making it past 2050?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

sports is a competition when you are participating. It is entertainment when you are watching. While the outcome isnt known, you cant impact it. And you dont know the outcome of most plays or movies either. You are there to be entertained. And just as Ryan Gosling or Brie Larson dont know who you are or care, the same holds true for the players who are entertaining you on the court or on the field. They just seem different because you see their performance live, but its the same thing. For some reason, people get more emotionally attached to sports to movies, though, and that makes sense to me when it involves your community but nothing about the New Orleans Pelicans is New Orleans. The players are all from different places, many live in other cities too when the season is over. Same for most/all in the front office. So this idea of rooting for our city vs some other city....I just dont buy that. But that depends on how you view the Ship of Theseus.

Its just another form of entertainment to distract you from life. No different than any other IMO, unless you can gain some benefit from it financially or a friend/family member is directly impacted

---

This is pretty false. There have been plenty of players playing in all different types of cities, that reach a point where they establish a connection to the place and to the people who live there. May not happen if they don't stick around long enough, but for most who do they absolutely care about their city and the people who live there and form bonds, connections, and civic pride just like most real people do!

I've talked to players and former players who have a connection to their city. You don't think Tony Allen embraced the people and place he played for? Or Tim Duncan? Or Deuce McCallister?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

This is pretty false. There have been plenty of players playing in all different types of cities, that reach a point where they establish a connection to the place and to the people who live there. May not happen if they don't stick around long enough, but for most who do they absolutely care about their city and the people who live there and form bonds, connections, and civic pride just like most real people do!

I've talked to players and former players who have a connection to their city. You don't think Tony Allen embraced the people and place he played for? Or Tim Duncan? Or Deuce McCallister?

---

Good points. It's also amazing how many players actually DON'T want to play for their hometown team. Whether it's pressure dealing with the handout crowd or whatever, a lot of guys prefer to not have to deal with it.

At the end of the day, we don't control where we're born. While some people have a deep connection with their hometown, others don't and wind up connecting with the community in which they go to college or somewhere that's near and dear to a spouse. It's the same with athletes. Guys like Tony Allen, ZBo and Marc Gasol all have a deep connection with Memphis that they didn't have with where they were raised.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sovereign

What's more likely between Zion signing a 3rd contract with us and society making it past 2050?

---

LMAO!!! My favorite post ever!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sovereign

What's more likely between Zion signing a 3rd contract with us and society making it past 2050?

---

Zion signing a 3rd contract

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

People will be less vexed by what he posts/tweets, if once they realize two things.

He's neither an optimist nor a pessimist. He's a contrarian. Kyrie Irving is also a contrarian. You say the earth is round, he'll take the position that the earth is flat.

He's not an NBA Insider, but that doesn't mean he doesn't give you well thought out and reasoned conjecture.

Both of those things make him the perfect message board participant. I'm glad he's around.

---

You have painted me into a corner here, for if I said I wasn’t a contrarian, it would prove your point

However, I would disagree slightly. I like to see balance in debates so if I see everyone piling on one side, I will present the case for the other. Not for the sake of arguing but to provide balance. So it’s not quite a contrarian. It’s more in the Thanos vein of balance

Which 50% of posters will you snap out of existence?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

It’s as simple as this…look at the tools and means we have had to wipe each other out on a mass level over say the first million years of existence. Now, look at advancements in like the last 20. Imagine the rate of the next 20 years has that same rate of advancement and multiply that by the amount of fear generated by stupidly giving everyone a voice and I can’t see any reality in which we don’t wipe ourselves out within the next 100 years. Next 50 years? More likely we are gone than not for sure. Next 25 years? A good chance we have done it IMO

I play the game Civilization a lot. My belief is we are in the endgame now when you look at history of this planet as a whole. We certainly aren’t in the beginning or the middle. Hug your loved ones. It’s gonna be over sooner than you think

---

To paraphrase George Carlin, the planet will be fine. The people, not so much.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Upper Decker

To paraphrase George Carlin, the planet will be fine. The people, not so much.

---

"Earth... will be like a dog...shakin' off fleas" (GC had his moments)

I think the only choice truly valuable to the team here is the full 5 yr contract with no option. A trade kicker can be waived, if he's so desperate to be traded (though I suppose it helps us if we're the ones initiating the trade) and the injury protection is useless for the reasons you've mentioned. The Rose rule tweaks are cute but, while it's possible every dollar counts if we're pushing against the luxury tax, I find it hard to get too excited about saving a % or 2 here or there...I'd rather create the goodwill by giving him the full amount. For a marginal max guy (Siakam example), it would make more sense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ml wave

I think the only choice truly valuable to the team here is the full 5 yr contract with no option. A trade kicker can be waived, if he's so desperate to be traded (though I suppose it helps us if we're the ones initiating the trade) and the injury protection is useless for the reasons you've mentioned. The Rose rule tweaks are cute but, while it's possible every dollar counts if we're pushing against the luxury tax, I find it hard to get too excited about saving a % or 2 here or there...I'd rather create the goodwill by giving him the full amount. For a marginal max guy (Siakam example), it would make more sense.

---

85 Games played in three seasons, with the undeniable reality that he's been hurt in each of the last five years (coupled with significant missed time) dating back to high school and you say:

"LET HIM HAVE IT...WITH NO PROBLEM"!!!

I wonder if you would feel the same way if we were to play a season or two over the next five years with only 70% of our salary cap on the floor competing. It would be like the 2021-22 Lakers on steroids.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by As I See It

85 Games played in three seasons, with the undeniable reality that he's been hurt in each of the last five years (coupled with significant missed time) dating back to high school and you say:

"LET HIM HAVE IT...WITH NO PROBLEM"!!!

I wonder if you would feel the same way if we were to play a season or two over the next five years with only 70% of our salary cap on the floor competing. It would be like the 2021-22 Lakers on steroids.

---

Let him have it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by As I See It

85 Games played in three seasons, with the undeniable reality that he's been hurt in each of the last five years (coupled with significant missed time) dating back to high school and you say:

"LET HIM HAVE IT...WITH NO PROBLEM"!!!

I wonder if you would feel the same way if we were to play a season or two over the next five years with only 70% of our salary cap on the floor competing. It would be like the 2021-22 Lakers on steroids.

---

The way I see it, our only path to being a true contender (not just a playoff team, but a real contender) is a healthy Zion that is reaching his superstar potential. If we are not getting that, the next five years are going to be stunted anyway. Yes. Give it to him.

"The 2021-2022 Lakers on steroids." You mean basically the Pelicans for the last 10 years, with one or two outliers?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DarkHornet

"The 2021-2022 Lakers on steroids." You mean basically the Pelicans for the last 10 years, with one or two outliers?

---

No Ace; I didn't mean that at all. I meant the Lakers just like I said. Tell me, Ace, in what year in the past 10 were the Pelicans considered championship conternders like the Lakers were this past year? If your comparison is the Dell Demp/Uncle Alvin years, it speaks to your knowledge' not mine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by As I See It

No Ace; I didn't mean that at all. I meant the Lakers just like I said. Tell me, Ace, in what year in the past 10 were the Pelicans considered championship conternders like the Lakers were this past year? If your comparison is the Dell Demp/Uncle Alvin years, it speaks to your knowledge' not mine.

---

We have to be championship contenders before we can be "disappointing championship contenders." You're getting way ahead of things.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DarkHornet

We have to be championship contenders before we can be "disappointing championship contenders." You're getting way ahead of things.

---

Okay, I have you marked down in the 'Won't Compete' column and still on par with the Demps/Alvin fiasco. That's fair.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by As I See It

Okay, I have you marked down in the 'Won't Compete' column and still on par with the Demps/Alvin fiasco. That's fair.

---

If you want to completely mischaracterize what I said, then sure. You don't seem to be particularly interested in honesty anyway. What I actually said: The version of this team that will be a championship contender is the one with a healthy Zion who is living up to his superstar status. We absolutely can be a contender, but that's not the baseline assumption right now. You, comparing us to last years Lakers who came into the season as championship favorites, is laughable. That's a level of respect we have not earned yet.

The point you seem to miss is that in order to be a "huge disappointment" there would have to be expectations to be disappointed from. We, as fans, believe we can compete. We have not gotten that level of belief from the public at large. And if Zion were to be hurt like in your scenario, this would not be seen as "the team that should have one a championship, but didn't." It would instead be seen as just an average to above average Pelicans team.

It's about your framing, not a belief that we won't compete.

For what it's worth, our team THIS PAST SEASON is basically this "2021-2022 Lakers on steroids" you talk about. We lost Zion for the whole season. Yet, we were playing 0.500 basketball after November, and we pushed the #1 seed in the west to 6 games. If that's the "Lakers on steroids", I feel pretty good about taking that risk.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by As I See It

85 Games played in three seasons, with the undeniable reality that he's been hurt in each of the last five years (coupled with significant missed time) dating back to high school and you say:

"LET HIM HAVE IT...WITH NO PROBLEM"!!!

I wonder if you would feel the same way if we were to play a season or two over the next five years with only 70% of our salary cap on the floor competing. It would be like the 2021-22 Lakers on steroids.

---

Yes because the "Embiid contract" doesn't say if he's hurt he doesn't get paid, it says if he's hurt and then subsequently cut his money is not guaranteed. The likelihood of being in a position where outright cutting him is a better option than keeping him or trading him is so low that it's not worth negotiating for. Just suppose these last three years were the first three under a contract structured like that. He just missed an entire season and we can cut him now and get out from under the last two years of guaranteed money. Would you cut him? Nope, even if you didn't want him to come back and play for you his trade value is much greater than the benefit of not having his contract.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by As I See It

No Ace; I didn't mean that at all. I meant the Lakers just like I said. Tell me, Ace, in what year in the past 10 were the Pelicans considered championship conternders like the Lakers were this past year? If your comparison is the Dell Demp/Uncle Alvin years, it speaks to your knowledge' not mine.

---

Why do you keep calling him Ace?

Want to bump this because I heard the small brains on TigerDroppings cant figure out the Rose Rule and how 2nd or 3rd team All NBA would not = 30%

If only they were on this board instead, they would have understood it MONTHS AGO

Where does it say only 1st team gets you 30%

Pretty sure the rule states any all-NBA team

Literally read the first post on this thread. I laid it all out months ago

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Literally read the first post on this thread. I laid it all out months ago

---

What I see is that it doesn't necessarily mean 30%, that it depends on how the contract is negotiated. Do we have details on Zion's rose rule qualifiers?

EDIT: Nevermind, I just saw the thread that prompted this bump. I see that it's specific to first team in Zion's contract.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Literally read the first post on this thread. I laid it all out months ago

---

You're right. I'm a moron

It’s all good. I am always here as a resource as long as people ask respectfully

It’s clear the CBA stuff is really tough for many. It’s my bread and butter. Always happy to help

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

It’s all good. I am always here as a resource as long as people ask respectfully

It’s clear the CBA stuff is really tough for many. It’s my bread and butter. Always happy to help

---

My problem was that I just skimmed the top and didn't read down far enough on Larry's faq

Completely my fault

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

It’s all good. I am always here as a resource as long as people ask respectfully

It’s clear the CBA stuff is really tough for many. It’s my bread and butter. Always happy to help

---

I am willfully ignorant (and somewhat proud of my ignorance) with respect to the CBA. I follow the Pelicans because I like watching basketball. You know, dribbling, passing, rebounding, and shooting. That kind of stuff. Yes, it is fun to dream of upgrading the roster via trades, but that's not my focus. I don't like math.

That’s totally fine. All I have ever asked of people like you, who don’t like that stuff, is to not give misinformation about CBA related things. Which you never have, but many have. Because once that toothpaste is out, it is impossible to get back in. That’s what I actually think makes it seem so confusing - all the people who aren’t experts in it chiming in. Then, it seems overwhelming and hard to understand. Leave it to the experts and just say thank you for the info lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

That’s totally fine. All I have ever asked of people like you, who don’t like that stuff, is to not give misinformation about CBA related things. Which you never have, but many have. Because once that toothpaste is out, it is impossible to get back in. That’s what I actually think makes it seem so confusing - all the people who aren’t experts in it chiming in. Then, it seems overwhelming and hard to understand. Leave it to the experts and just say thank you for the info lol

---

i gotta say when it come to CBA related stuff, i do take your info as the gospel...