Shams - Lonzo update

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Originally Posted by jaxmc1023

Always seems risky for small-market cellar dweller like the Pels to wait around for the missing piece to become available via trade, especially in the present day NBA where those players basically tell their teams exactly where they want to be traded to

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What is the alternative? Make them appear?

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

Should have traded Lonzo last year and avoided all this nonsense. It seems to be far better to be proactive in these situations. Demps got caught up in a very similar situation with Gordon. If you can't extend a player for a reasonable amount trade them. It's cold but ultimately the best thing for the team. Now you have to hope another team doesn't intentionally gives him a contract you don't want to give Lonzo yourself.

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Sure it is not that simple. It is certainly a risk, but obviously they did not get an offer for him that they felt was adequate. As a result, I assume they felt the risk was worth it to keep him and hope for a reasonable contract.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

Should have traded Lonzo last year and avoided all this nonsense. It seems to be far better to be proactive in these situations. Demps got caught up in a very similar situation with Gordon. If you can't extend a player for a reasonable amount trade them. It's cold but ultimately the best thing for the team. Now you have to hope another team doesn't intentionally gives him a contract you don't want to give Lonzo yourself.

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From Dec. 12, 2019

Some of us have objective foresight, some (Griff) dont

https://www.bourbonstreetshots.com/2...be-aggressive/

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Originally Posted by jaxmc1023

Always seems risky for small-market cellar dweller like the Pels to wait around for the missing piece to become available via trade, especially in the present day NBA where those players basically tell their teams exactly where they want to be traded to

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Yup

It’s why I’m so over all his talk of family. That crap is for Mighty Ducks movies or Glory Road staring THE Josh Lucas.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

Sure it is not that simple. It is certainly a risk, but obviously they did not get an offer for him that they felt was adequate. As a result, I assume they felt the risk was worth it to keep him and hope for a reasonable contract.

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The best offer was Markannen. Straight up. Griff told them that if they add a pick, he says yes. Chicago thought that he would cave at 245 and just accept Lauri. He didnt, betting that someone would give him something of future value this summer. We will see if he was right

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

The best offer was Markannen. Straight up. Griff told them that if they add a pick, he says yes. Chicago thought that he would cave at 245 and just accept Lauri. He didnt, betting that someone would give him something of future value this summer. We will see if he was right

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Interesting. However, they would still be in the same position with Markannen needing a contract and hoping no one gave him a big offer.

Maybe you have posted elsewhere and I missed it. Whether Ball leaves or not, do you think Sexton is a player the Pels should target and if so, do you think they have serious interest?

Why they didnt do the trade. Why simply trade one problem for another?

As for Sexton...I want it to happen. And yes, they have had discussions. But that means nothing. Griff has discussed over 2 dozen players with other teams already this offseadon

For me, Sexton comes down to this: Do you think there is a realistic path where the Pels build a roster that wins a chsmpionship. If your answer is yes, you are probably against a Sexton trade because he is small and does have overlapping positive and negative traits with BI and Zion (as opposed to being perfectly complimentary). So it isnt the move to make if you are holding out hope for perfect cohesion

But I dont think this franchise will ever win a title, and I dont think Zion and Ingram change that. So, just give me guys who play hard, are fun, and win more games than they lose. Sexton cares. He tries. He is talented. Will he be too small in the playoffs? Probably. Take some dumb shots. Yup. Will the Pels lose in some round of the playoffs with him, Ingram, and Zion as their highest usage guys. They will

But I have come to terms with that regardless and just want what I listed above and Sexton helps us get that

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Why they didnt do the trade. Why simply trade one problem for another?

As for Sexton...I want it to happen. And yes, they have had discussions. But that means nothing. Griff has discussed over 2 dozen players with other teams already this offseadon

For me, Sexton comes down to this: Do you think there is a realistic path where the Pels build a roster that wins a chsmpionship. If your answer is yes, you are probably against a Sexton trade because he is small and does have overlapping positive and negative traits with BI and Zion (as opposed to being perfectly complimentary). So it isnt the move to make if you are holding out hope for perfect cohesion

But I dont think this franchise will ever win a title, and I dont think Zion and Ingram change that. So, just give me guys who play hard, are fun, and win more games than they lose. Sexton cares. He tries. He is talented. Will he be too small in the playoffs? Probably. Take some dumb shots. Yup. Will the Pels lose in some round of the playoffs with him, Ingram, and Zion as their highest usage guys. They will

But I have come to terms with that regardless and just want what I listed above and Sexton helps us get that

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You think we can beat the NY offer without giving up NAW, Hayes, or Lewis?

NY offer is two busts and a pick or two in a range after most see a significant drop off. Yeah...I think we can beat that if we want to

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Originally Posted by Silverfoxx

You think we can beat the NY offer without giving up NAW, Hayes, or Lewis?

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I'd like to keep them as well. Kira's skill set looks the same a Sexton so maybe when one goes out and the other comes in there isn't too much of a change in the game plan.

I think you guys are thinking too.much about fit and next years roster. Its talent acquisition time. If Sexton is the best player and best value on the trade market grabs him. If Griff cant get what he wants for Lonzo in a trade, he keeps him. If there is a guard who slips to 35 that we had ranked around 20, the Pels take him too

You grab the talent, not the fit, right now.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

I think you guys are thinking too.much about fit and next years roster. Its talent acquisition time. If Sexton is the best player and best value on the trade market grabs him. If Griff cant get what he wants for Lonzo in a trade, he keeps him. If there is a guard who slips to 35 that we had ranked around 20, the Pels take him too

You grab the talent, not the fit, right now.

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I like that strategy. Will Griffin apply that strategy though and not make another Adams move now?

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

I like that strategy. Will Griffin apply that strategy though and not make another Adams move now?

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He really regrets the Adams move. Not because Adams is bad but because of the acquisition cost and he would have 5% more flexibility right now if he hadnt done that deal. I dont think he does another one of those. He is aiming much higher, and I believe that if he cant get those bigger targets, he wont just settle for J. Grant or Nance, etc. But we shall see

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

He really regrets the Adams move. Not because Adams is bad but because of the acquisition cost and he would have 5% more flexibility right now if he hadnt done that deal. I dont think he does another one of those. He is aiming much higher, and I believe that if he cant get those bigger targets, he wont just settle for J. Grant or Nance, etc. But we shall see

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Knowing what you know, what is his end goal? Is he going to try to get off both Adams and Bledsoe? Targeting names that have not been considered or discussed?

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Originally Posted by iNolaNightmare

Knowing what you know, what is his end goal? Is he going to try to get off both Adams and Bledsoe? Targeting names that have not been considered or discussed?

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If you told Griff you would give him 10 mil to tell you exactly what he will do....he couldnt. He has multiple pathways. The first is to land a star. If Beal, Lillard, etc are on the block, he will make an insane overpay offer. But as I have said for months, I dont think they will be. He has been talking to Indy and Toronto for months. So, if Sabonis or OG shake free, he will go get them but not if it is so costly that it wont allow him to get the next star who comes free.

It can go so many different ways and value will play the key role. Its not A vs not A (say Brogdon or not Brogdon). Its A vs B vs C vs D vs E, etc etc

All the players lined up, with costs -- now what has the most impact for cost. So, will he 'get off' Adams? If the value is there, sure. Is it an edict. No, nothing is. Its not A or not A. It never is

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

If you told Griff you would give him 10 mil to tell you exactly what he will do....he couldnt. He has multiple pathways. The first is to land a star. If Beal, Lillard, etc are on the block, he will make an insane overpay offer. But as I have said for months, I dont think they will be. He has been talking to Indy and Toronto for months. So, if Sabonis or OG shake free....

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Do you think the goal, though, is to dump both of those guys this off-season?

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

If you told Griff you would give him 10 mil to tell you exactly what he will do....he couldnt. He has multiple pathways. The first is to land a star. If Beal, Lillard, etc are on the block, he will make an insane overpay offer. But as I have said for months, I dont think they will be. He has been talking to Indy and Toronto for months. So, if Sabonis or OG shake free....

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OG is suchhhhhh a perfect fit it’s not even funny.

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Originally Posted by iNolaNightmare

Do you think the goal, though, is to dump both of those guys this off-season?

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I know people think I am being a jerk when I ask questions like this, but I am just trying to figure out the EXACT question:

What do you mean by "goal"?

If a goal is: Do this no matter what, or at any cost - the answer is no.

The only "goal" is to improve the roster. The part out of his control is 'how much' - and that will be determined by other teams and who they are willing to move this summer

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

I know people think I am being a jerk when I ask questions like this, but I am just trying to figure out the EXACT question:

What do you mean by "goal"?

If a goal is: Do this no matter what, or at any cost - the answer is no.

The only "goal" is to improve the roster. The part out of his control is 'how much' - and that will be determined by other teams and who they are willing to move this summer

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Let me rephrase. Based upon what you know, do you foresee any circumstance Bledsoe is on the opening day roster?

Yes. If Griff thinks or knows a stud might want out late in the offseason or early in the season, it would make sense for him to keep Bledsoe around

If you trade Bledsoe next week for say Taurean Prince and then Lillard hates the Blazers offseason and puts in his trade demand in October and drags it into the season like Harden just did, you couldnt trade Prince to match salary
But if you had Bledsoe, you could.

Talked about this exact scenario on my pod a few weeks ago. I break everything down in concise detail there.

What I'm hoping for...

- I actually like NAW as the starting PG... allow him and Kira to share the duties.
- Find a solid SG that can defend and knock down open shots
- Find a big that can defend, pass, and be a decent threat form mid-range. A stretch big that can knock down 3s would be ideal, but if he can make middies that'll at least un-clog the paint for the PnR.
- Get 2 or 3 more 3nD wings that can provide some good bench minutes and extend/maintain leads

Starters:

PG: NAW/Kira/3rd PG
SG: 3nD/3nD/Didi
SF: BI/Naji/3ND
PF: Zion/3nD
C: Stretch5/Jax (I'd love for Jax to develop a middie, because I love his ability in PnR/Bruiser5

As you can see I would love to fill the roster with guys that can SHOOT. With Zion's ability to dominate the paint we need guys that can knock down shots. Basketball isn't that hard... you have inside threats and surround the arc with guys that can shoot. NAW and Zion on PnR with shooters would be a nice lineup. NAW can score.. he also has a floater. He just need minutes to develop.

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Originally Posted by DroopyDawg

What I'm hoping for...

- I actually like NAW as the starting PG... allow him and Kira to share the duties.
- Find a solid SG that can defend and knock down open shots
- Find a big that can defend, pass, and be a decent threat form mid-range. A stretch big that can knock down 3s would be ideal, but if he can make middies that'll at least un-clog the paint for the PnR.
- Get 2 or 3 more 3nD wings that can provide some good bench minutes and extend/maintain leads

Starters:

PG: NAW/Kira/3rd PG
SG: 3nD/3nD/Didi
SF: BI/Naji/3ND
PF: Zion/3nD
C: Stretch5/Jax (I'd love for Jax to develop a middie, because I love his ability in PnR/Bruiser5

As you can see I would love to fill the roster with guys that can SHOOT. With Zion's ability to dominate the paint we need guys that can knock down shots. Basketball isn't that hard... you have inside threats and surround the arc with guys that can shoot. NAW and Zion on PnR with shooters would be a nice lineup. NAW can score.. he also has a floater. He just need minutes to develop.

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If you watched NAW closely over the past couple seasons, you can tell he is a SG and not a PG. He has trouble making PG decisions. I like him as the starting SG if the team doesn’t trade for a SF like Harrison Barnes who would shift Ingram over to being the starting SG.

So we've got the prime targets set as Beal, Lillard, KAT, Brown, and SGA.

There's always the unexpected. The guy who seems pretty entrenched but his team hasn't had playoff luck so he wants out. But...that guy is almost sure to want access to a team with title hopes, no? But then...the same would be true of the four names I just mentioned.

So, let's assume anyone who comes open on the market would also be amenable to playing here...who is the other name to step up and be available? What if it's Tatum? He's already wanted to come to NOLA once...there's been some upheaval in the front office structure...is that enough? This is fun to imagine. Well, for me it is. I can compartmentalize and not be let down when it never happens.

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Originally Posted by Darkhorse985

If you watched NAW closely over the past couple seasons, you can tell he is a SG and not a PG. He has trouble making PG decisions. I like him as the starting SG if the team doesn?t trade for a SF like Harrison Barnes who would shift Ingram over to being the starting SG.

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I think Ingram should be moved to SG (said so when the trade was made). I love the idea of him taking defenders down low and using his size and reach (think PG13 or KD). I also agree with you that NAW is a not a PG. That said, I think NAW will be a moved if the right deal comes up. Right now he is the 'flavor of the month' and might never be this valuable to the Pelicans again.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Why they didnt do the trade. Why simply trade one problem for another?

As for Sexton...I want it to happen. And yes, they have had discussions. But that means nothing. Griff has discussed over 2 dozen players with other teams already this offseadon

For me, Sexton comes down to this: Do you think there is a realistic path where the Pels build a roster that wins a chsmpionship. If your answer is yes, you are probably against a Sexton trade because he is small and does have overlapping positive and negative traits with BI and Zion (as opposed to being perfectly complimentary). So it isnt the move to make if you are holding out hope for perfect cohesion

But I dont think this franchise will ever win a title, and I dont think Zion and Ingram change that. So, just give me guys who play hard, are fun, and win more games than they lose. Sexton cares. He tries. He is talented. Will he be too small in the playoffs? Probably. Take some dumb shots. Yup. Will the Pels lose in some round of the playoffs with him, Ingram, and Zion as their highest usage guys. They will

But I have come to terms with that regardless and just want what I listed above and Sexton helps us get that

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Why do you say they'll never win?

Out of curiousity - when you guys reference positions, what exactly does that mean?

Like, you can put Ingram at "shooting guard" but that doesnt necessitate that the guy listed at "shooting guard" on the program has to defend him. So, what do these positions mean to you guys when you say this guy can play X position but shouldnt play Y?

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Originally Posted by PELSGIRL

Why do you say they'll never win?

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Because I dont believe they will. Could I be wrong? Of course. But I would bet heavy that they never do. So, because that is my belief, I dont look at every move through the lens of "Does this help us build the perfect roster to win a title?"

Give me a fun team. A team that tries hard. A team that wins more than it loses. All I need

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Because I dont believe they will. Could I be wrong? Of course. But I would bet heavy that they never do. So, because that is my belief, I dont look at every move through the lens of "Does this help us build the perfect roster to win a title?"

Give me a fun team. A team that tries hard. A team that wins more than it loses. All I need

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Kind of agree on the goal of just fielding a team that competes, but wondering why you say the Pels can't win a championship more so than any other smaller market team. I mean, come on, did you see Phoenix in the finals when hired James Jones as GM and a retread Monty Williams as coach? People were openly laughing at their front office and ownership two years ago.

The only reason for your pessimism I can see (other than the obvious fact that it's very hard for any team to win a title) is that you don't like the Pelicans ownership. I think that meme is overplayed by wise guy commentators. Nobody was singing the praises of New York or Atlanta or Phoenix's ownership and they all made huge leaps season over season by making some aggressive moves and you can argue the Pels are in a better position than any of those teams were at the end of last season. It doesn't always have to be some 5-year chess match where you can only get in position to get in position to make the move 3 years later...

Be careful with words -- I said wont

Cant and wont are two different things. And yes, you could always point to outliers to give you hope. Heck, every time I say I dont think the Pels ever will win a title, people say "We all that about that the Saints, and they did!" --- I have heard all the arguments before. I understand they CAN win a title. It is possible. But I would bet a large amount of money they wont. Not because any one thing is objectively awful and impossible to overcome, but because so much has to go right for a small market team that the odds are already heavily against them, and add on to that the meh culture of the organization and the missteps they have already made in this new era and I would just bet a ton of money they never do

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Be careful with words -- I said wont

Cant and wont are two different things.

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Duly noted. Can't=impossible. Won't=opinion that it will not happen. But you can expand from with that caveat, if you like. The implication is that the Pels are somehow less likely than, say the Suns, to get it together and win a chip. Maybe that's not what you're saying, but it seems like it is. Be interested in knowing why you hold that opinion...

Yeah, I added above. And I know its the safe bet and I am not going far out on a limb to say they wont. Not trying to go on a limb. Not trying to convince anyone else to agree with me. I just have come to terms with it and therefore am not trying to build the perfect roster. Am not all consumed with perfect fits. Just give me skilled guys who play hard and who care. If we are who Utah has been the last few years and who they will be the next few, I am totally cool with that, even if they fail every year in the playoffs

Is the end game really a title, or a competitive team you can be proud of, week in, week out?

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

From Dec. 12, 2019

Some of us have objective foresight, some (Griff) dont

https://www.bourbonstreetshots.com/2...be-aggressive/

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I've always valued your insight and you knocked it out of the park with your section on Lonzo. Mactradumas 😆.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

I've always valued your insight and you knocked it out of the park with your section on Lonzo. Mactradumas ��.

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Apart from wanting a future MVP candidate for BI

That's fairly far fetched

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Originally Posted by AusPel

Is the end game really a title, or a competitive team you can be proud of, week in, week out?

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I think that is up to the individual to choose. I have no problem with whatever a person decides for their entertainment. I just know where I am and when I see people not wanting to trade for Sexton, it is clear to me they prefer the 'title or bust' path of fandom/mental team building

I don't know if I'm a title or bust type a fan. I rather view my self as a swing for the fence guy and live with the results. I'd pass on Sexton for a lot of the reasons MM mentioned. However I wouldn't hate having Sexton on the team. The guy competes hard and I could live or die with that as a fan.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Out of curiousity - when you guys reference positions, what exactly does that mean?

Like, you can put Ingram at "shooting guard" but that doesnt necessitate that the guy listed at "shooting guard" on the program has to defend him. So, what do these positions mean to you guys when you say this guy can play X position but shouldnt play Y?

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exactly
if we were to sincerely roll with zion at point, then why have a smallish 2 guard out there; whereas we dont get a mismatch- due to the opposing PG being able to guard our Sg

id want a team on the floor like

zion
moody/brogdon
ingram
oubre
jaxson

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Out of curiousity - when you guys reference positions, what exactly does that mean?

Like, you can put Ingram at "shooting guard" but that doesnt necessitate that the guy listed at "shooting guard" on the program has to defend him. So, what do these positions mean to you guys when you say this guy can play X position but shouldnt play Y?

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exactly
if we were to sincerely roll with zion at point, then why have a smallish 2 guard out there; whereas we dont get a mismatch- due to the opposing PG being able to guard our Sg

id want a team on the floor like

zion
moody/brogdon
ingram
oubre
jaxson

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Originally Posted by AusPel

Is the end game really a title, or a competitive team you can be proud of, week in, week out?

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You always try to construct a team with the latter in mind, imo. To get a title, regardless of how good your team is, you need a little bit of luck. Some of the greatest teams in NBA history have come away with no rings, despite being just demonstrably fantastic teams. Being really really good is just not enough to guarantee a title; if you think ''title or bust'' you're almost certain to be disappointed regardless of how good the team is.

The focus has to be on constructing the best team possible, with the hopes of being a team that does all they can. If that team gets lucky, they also win a ring, as a by-product of being really good, but if your focus is just being really good and winning more than you lose then you're much more likely to be, at least for some time, satisfied.