How do we reach the next level ?

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04-07-2021, 02:59 PM
HoustonPelicans

Quote:

Originally Posted by As I See It

What exactly are you basing your faith in Gentry on?

His track record?

Do you think he could get more out of Bledsoe this year than he got out of Holiday last season?

I beg to differ with you about SVG not putting the players in position to win games. How many double digit leads have the players squandered this year?

I think we all have to come to terms with the roster, OVERALL; it's woefully weak.

This team has been able to get double digit leads in spite of SVG coaching not because of it. We have 2 allstars, one that is virtually unstoppable. The roster may not be the best, but its at least worth a 8 seed in the playoffs.

Only 5 players can be on the floor at a time. Is it the players fault that SVG opted to overplay Bledsoe and Adams for "defense" to try to protect leads, as the offense stagnates and allow teams back in the game? How many times have we seen in the 4th quarter Zion on the bench and not being brought back until 4-5 min remaining? Players fault too? So when we're up double digits its all because of SVG but when the games get tight and the necessary adjustments are not made its because of the players?

I'll ask again, what are the positives that SVG brings? If its because of him that we've been up double digits, how? What did he do to get us there?

I'll agree with you that the roster is overall weak, but it also hasn't been fully utilized either. We've lost far too many games that we should've won. Youth is always the excuse even though we've lost to young teams. Griff deserves some blame too. I just don't see how we get to the next level under the current leadership. Waiting too long to move on from the past leadership is how we lost AD. I don't think we should wait nor have the current leadership given us any reason to believe we should besides the fact that they talk a good game but produce bad results.
04-07-2021, 03:05 PM
As I See It

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6warddude

hart and lonzo are up in the air.....imo our 9 or 10 man rotation next season will almost be the same as this season with a rookie as a new addition....so will the rookie make us better as some of you think because of how stack yall say the draft is?....

maybe we add one FA to replace hart or lonzo but we will have the same players in that rotation and coach that we have now imo lol....so how will we be better?.....will the rookie make an impact?...will lonzo replacement be the 3rd star?...

I think there will be major changes this summer. For Instance:

Adams gone - trade
Bledsoe gone - trade
Perhaps Lonzo gone (via sign and trade)
It wouldn't surprise me to see either Hart (via sign and trade) or NAW traded (not both) (we don't need two back up 2's who are iffy shooters.
We should try to move up in draft (I would love to get Suggs but that is likely a pipedream)
We have to get a stretch 4/5 in FA

So, I think there will be a lot of player movement this Summer.
04-07-2021, 03:12 PM
As I See It

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoustonPelicans

This team has been able to get double digit leads in spite of SVG coaching not because of it. We have 2 allstars, one that is virtually unstoppable. The roster may not be the best, but its at least worth a 8 seed in the playoffs.

Only 5 players can be on the floor at a time. Is it the players fault that SVG opted to overplay Bledsoe and Adams for "defense" to try to protect leads, as the offense stagnates and allow teams back in the game? How many times have we seen in the 4th quarter Zion on the bench and not being brought back until 4-5 min remaining? Players fault too? So when we're up double digits its all because of SVG but when the games get tight and the necessary adjustments are not made its because of the players?

I'll ask again, what are the positives that SVG brings? If its because of him that we've been up double digits, how? What did he do to get us there?

I'll agree with you that the roster is overall weak, but it also hasn't been fully utilized either. We've lost far too many games that we should've won. Youth is always the excuse even though we've lost to young teams. Griff deserves some blame too. I just don't see how we get to the next level under the current leadership. Waiting too long to move on from the past leadership is how we lost AD. I don't think we should wait nor have the current leadership given us any reason to believe we should besides the fact that they talk a good game but produce bad results.

Gotcha....

SVG gets no credit for the leads and all the blame for the losses.

You say the reason we lost AD was poor leadership, but in the same breath claim that Gentry would have this group in the playoffs? That's a head scratcher.

Me thinks your bias is showing. LMAO

(PS: Again, I'll ask, what is the basis for your belief in Gentry?)
04-07-2021, 03:29 PM
HoustonPelicans

Quote:

Originally Posted by As I See It

Gotcha....

SVG gets no credit for the leads and all the blame for the losses.

You say the reason we lost AD was poor leadership, but in the same breath claim that Gentry would have this group in the playoffs? That's a head scratcher.

Me thinks your bias is showing. LMAO

(PS: Again, I'll ask, what is the basis for your belief in Gentry?)

Lol you just flipped my reasoning. Why can't you name any positives for SVG? You can think of every excuse in the book for him but you can't think of any positive? Thats very telling.

I don't have a belief in Gentry. I clearly said he isn't the right coach for this team. Bringing up Gentry isn't making SVG look any better. If SVG deserves grace then you should be able to list positives he bring and not just a bunch of excuses of why he underperformed with a healthy roster.
04-07-2021, 03:32 PM
Erose

Quote:

Originally Posted by 13 - 3

Got to love how Monty built up the Suns fairly quick. Suns organization in great shape.

I think Chris Paul had a lot to do with that.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
04-07-2021, 03:49 PM
13 - 3

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erose

I think Chris Paul had a lot to do with that.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

And the Pelicans passed on him. Instead we got the Bledsoe contract.
04-07-2021, 04:15 PM
6warddude

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoustonPelicans

Lol you just flipped my reasoning. Why can't you name any positives for SVG? You can think of every excuse in the book for him but you can't think of any positive? Thats very telling.

I don't have a belief in Gentry. I clearly said he isn't the right coach for this team. Bringing up Gentry isn't making SVG look any better. If SVG deserves grace then you should be able to list positives he bring and not just a bunch of excuses of why he underperformed with a healthy roster.

is it fair to judge stan in this year when he dont have a defensive minded team or with players that will not be here during his tenure?....

one positive is he is a defensive minded coach who has had good defenses while he was coaching in the past....

what 3 coaches who you would have hired over stan?.....names...you cant call for people to list stan positives without naming coaches that you would have like us to hired to judge them on....
04-07-2021, 04:24 PM
13 - 3

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6warddude

is it fair to judge stan in this year when he dont have a defensive minded team or with players that will not be here during his tenure?....

one positive is he is a defensive minded coach who has had good defenses while he was coaching in the past....

what 3 coaches who you would have hired over stan?.....names...you cant call for people to list stan positives without naming coaches that you would have like us to hired to judge them on....

Never forget we interviewed a guy that specializes in player development and defense but went with the retread instead.

https://www.mavs.com/team/coaches/jamahl-mosley/ I would have loved him here.
04-07-2021, 04:25 PM
As I See It

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoustonPelicans

Lol you just flipped my reasoning. Why can't you name any positives for SVG? You can think of every excuse in the book for him but you can't think of any positive? Thats very telling.

I don't have a belief in Gentry. I clearly said he isn't the right coach for this team. Bringing up Gentry isn't making SVG look any better. If SVG deserves grace then you should be able to list positives he bring and not just a bunch of excuses of why he underperformed with a healthy roster.

I didn't say this...you did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoustonPelicans

I think at a minimum, Gentry would have us in the playoffs.

You clearly stated that Gentry, who couldn't get an alleged generational talent and a highly regarded VETERAN in the playoffs but once (thanks to Boogie, Mirotic and Rando), could get this group in the playoffs; not me.

Now, I'm not defending SVG, but to say Gentry could develop this young bunch into a playoff contender is just nonsensical. What young player has improved under Gentry tutelage? Surely you don't claim that AD is AD because of Gentry...or maybe you do. We have two reliable (when he's not Bozo...three) NBA Players in our staring lineup. If Steven doesn't have at least one foot in the paint he's useless. The other night he made Olynyk look like Larry Bird. Bledsoe is a joke. And as I eluded to, the other starter is either Lonzo or Bozo depending on the game.

Bottom line: We have to blow up this team this summer.
04-07-2021, 04:30 PM
13 - 3

SVG got his one championship with Alonzo,Shaq, and Wade. What has he done since?
04-07-2021, 04:37 PM
HoustonPelicans

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6warddude

is it fair to judge stan in this year when he dont have a defensive minded team or with players that will not be here during his tenure?....

one positive is he is a defensive minded coach who has had good defenses while he was coaching in the past....

what 3 coaches who you would have hired over stan?.....names...you cant call for people to list stan positives without naming coaches that you would have like us to hired to judge them on....

7 of the 9 guys in our rotation are defensive minded. The only ones who aren't is BI and Zion. And JJ when he played.. That excuse doesn't work. The bad defense is mind boggling because that was the one thing he was supposed to be good at. He hasn't had a good defensive team since he had Dwight Howard in an era where scoring 108 pts was considered top 3.

I think its fair to ask for positives 46 games into the season. We shouldn't have to rely on the past. He should have some positives after 46 games.

Coaches we could've hired are:
Jerry Stackhouse
Juwan Howard
Chris Finch
Kenny Atkinson

All would've been better choices than SVG imo.
04-07-2021, 04:52 PM
HoustonPelicans

Quote:

Originally Posted by As I See It

I didn't say this...you did.

You clearly stated that Gentry, who couldn't get an alleged generational talent and a highly regarded VETERAN in the playoffs but once (thanks to Boogie, Mirotic and Rando), could get this group in the playoffs; not me.

Now, I'm not defending SVG, but to say Gentry could develop this young bunch into a playoff contender is just nonsensical. What young player has improved under Gentry tutelage? Surely you don't claim that AD is AD because of Gentry...or maybe you do. We have two reliable (when he's not Bozo...three) NBA Players in our staring lineup. If Steven doesn't have at least one foot in the paint he's useless. The other night he made Olynyk look like Larry Bird. Bledsoe is a joke. And as I eluded to, the other starter is either Lonzo or Bozo depending on the game.

Bottom line: We have to blow up this team this summer.

So I guess we'll just pretend BI didn't win Most Improved under Gentry.
Gentry got an identical record with pretty much no Zion and multiple other injuries. I think he could get this completely healthy squad to the playoffs.

So your argument is this roster is worse than the Spurs, Mavs, Grizzlies, and Warriors despite them all facing significant injury woes all season. Cmon man. How much is SVG paying you? lol

See that Bottom line is the issue. We don't need to blow up the team to build around a below mediocre coach with no clear cut coaching style, who his supporters can't even name anything positive he has done this season. The core is solid. The coach is the issue. We need additional pieces not a complete makeover. This has happened at every single team SVG has been at. He becomes the issue. Then he blames the players. The FO begins to move players to appease SVG and then the teams are left decimated when they realize that he was the issue the whole time. Orlando and Detroit still haven't recovered since him. Skip Bayless even said the same recently, he said he never liked the SVG hiring because he gets to be annoying to players after awhile. And now you're saying blow up the team to fit him... it's already beginning.
04-07-2021, 04:58 PM
PolishFan

You have to credit Stan for the development of the young guys. Benching Hayes was apparently the best thing for him. Zion is breaking a lot of records - so Stan gets no credit for that? Naw looks like he belongs and Kira is showing potential

Stan is preaching defense and Zion has a lot of work to do here but I am really impressed with Hayes and Naw defensive improvements
04-07-2021, 05:16 PM
As I See It

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoustonPelicans

So I guess we'll just pretend BI didn't win Most Improved under Gentry.
Gentry got an identical record with pretty much no Zion and multiple other injuries. I think he could get this completely healthy squad to the playoffs.

So your argument is this roster is worse than the Spurs, Mavs, Grizzlies, and Warriors despite them all facing significant injury woes all season. Cmon man. How much is SVG paying you? lol

See that Bottom line is the issue. We don't need to blow up the team to build around a below mediocre coach with no clear cut coaching style, who his supporters can't even name anything positive he has done this season. The core is solid. The coach is the issue. We need additional pieces not a complete makeover. This has happened at every single team SVG has been at. He becomes the issue. Then he blames the players. The FO begins to move players to appease SVG and then the teams are left decimated when they realize that he was the issue the whole time. Orlando and Detroit still haven't recovered since him. Skip Bayless even said the same recently, he said he never liked the SVG hiring because he gets to be annoying to players after awhile. And now you're saying blow up the team to fit him... it's already beginning.

Remind me, who on this year's team is as good a guard (or defender) as Jrue Holiday?

You only have two players on this roster who could start anywhere in the league.

Adams and Lonzo need the right fit to even be considered for a hand full of teams.

Bledsoe is either (a) a diva who doesn't want to be here; (b) a player on the decline; (c) over-rated; (d) all of the above. I opt for 'd'.

I attribute BI's improvement to his health and work ethic.

And right you are...I think, as constructed, this roster sucks.
04-07-2021, 05:20 PM
PELICANSFAN

Quote:

Originally Posted by 13 - 3

And the Pelicans passed on him. Instead we got the Bledsoe contract.

When did they pass on him?
04-07-2021, 05:21 PM
HoustonPelicans

Quote:

Originally Posted by As I See It

Remind me, who on this year's team is as good a guard (or defender) as Jrue Holiday?

You only have two players on this roster who could start anywhere in the league.

Adams and Lonzo need the right fit to even be considered for a hand full of teams.

Bledsoe is either (a) a diva who doesn't want to be here; (b) a player on the decline; (c) over-rated; (d) all of the above. I opt for 'd'.

I attribute BI's improvement to his health and work ethic.

Okay I understand how you feel about the roster. But you're not naming any positives for SVG is very telling. Memphis, San Antonio and Dallas all have 1 player that can start on any team in the league. Yet they are better than us. SVG isn't some rookie coach. He's 60 years old. So you're willing to mortgage the future of this team for some retread that you can't even name positives for? Just blow it up?
04-07-2021, 05:34 PM
As I See It

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoustonPelicans

Okay I understand how you feel about the roster. But you're not naming any positives for SVG is very telling. Memphis, San Antonio and Dallas all have 1 player that can start on any team in the league. Yet they are better than us. SVG isn't some rookie coach. He's 60 years old. So you're willing to mortgage the future of this team for some retread that you can't even name positives for? Just blow it up?

Have we seen any improvement in NAW?

Have we seen any improvement in JAX?

Is Kira coming along?

Who is the leading rebounding guard in the league?

The productivity offensively is virtually the same as last year (115.1 LY / 115.0 TY); but even with the loss of Holiday, defensively we are a full 2 points better off (117.1 LY / 115.1 TY).

Net Rating this year - 16th. Net Rating last year - 20th.

We are currently the 3rd best rebounding team and lead the league in offensive rebounding.

Last year we were # 2 in Turnovers; this year we improved to # 12. (2.1 less per game).
04-07-2021, 05:40 PM
HoustonPelicans

Quote:

Originally Posted by As I See It

Have we seen any improvement in NAW?

Have we seen any improvement in JAX?

Is Kira coming along?

Who is the leading rebounding guard in the league?

The productivity offensively is virtually the same as last year (115.1 LY / 115.0 TY); but even with the loss of Holiday, defensively we are a full 2 points better off (117.1 LY / 115.1 TY).

Net Rating this year - 16th. Net Rating last year - 20th.

You can't use individual improvements after you dismissed it for BI. What about his coaching has made NAW, Hayes and Kira better? What positions are he putting them in to succeed? You really can't break down SVG coaching style and name any positives, that much is clear now.
04-07-2021, 05:49 PM
As I See It

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoustonPelicans

You can't use individual improvements after you dismissed it for BI. What about his coaching has made NAW, Hayes and Kira better? What positions are he putting them in to succeed? You really can't break down SVG coaching style and name any positives, that much is clear now.

I just did. Comprehension seems to be an issue here. I just documented the improvements.

Gentry was here five years and sucked

SVG is here for five months with a roster worse than anything Gentry ever had, and you're ready for his head. LMAO

Sorry, your bias shows.
04-07-2021, 05:50 PM
13 - 3

Quote:

Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

When did they pass on him?

We had a thread on it . Russlo reported it

https://fadeawayworld.net/2020/09/13...or-chris-paul/

https://pelicandebrief.com/2020/11/1...rs-chris-paul/

https://www.newsbreak.com/news/20599...for-chris-paul

According to @ScoopB, the New Orleans Pelicans are expected to show interest in trading for Chris Paul.
— Hoop Central (@TheHoopCentral) September 13, 2020
04-07-2021, 05:54 PM
HoustonPelicans

Quote:

Originally Posted by As I See It

I just did. Comprehension seems to be an issue here.

Gentry was here five years and sucked

SVG is here for five months with a roster worse than anything Gentry ever had, and you're ready for his head. LMAO

Sorry, your bias shows.

You posting stats mean absolutely nothing because the team is underperforming. The fact that you feel the only way you can boast about SVG is to compare him to Gentry says everything we need to know. Its your bias that is showing. You can't be objective when it comes to SVG he must be your family member. SVG just hoping to ride Zion coattails to a legacy. He needs to be fired before he ruins this great core we have together. If you disagree, cool, name the positives of his coaching style. Don't compare him to the last fired coach. That literally makes no sense.
04-07-2021, 05:58 PM
As I See It

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoustonPelicans

You posting stats mean absolutely nothing because the team is underperforming. The fact that you feel the only way you can boast about SVG is to compare him to Gentry says everything we need to know. Its your bias that is showing. You can't be objective when it comes to SVG he must be your family member. SVG just hoping to ride Zion coattails to a legacy. He needs to be fired before he ruins this great core we have together. If you disagree, cool, name the positives of his coaching style. Don't compare him to the last fired coach. That literally makes no sense.

You drew the comparison, not me, remember?

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoustonPelicans

I think at a minimum, Gentry would have us in the playoffs.

You were the one that compared him to a fired coach, not me, Tex!! I only called you on it. Objectivity is your issue; not mine.

....and perhaps the team is performing up to its ability, which is sorry.
04-07-2021, 05:59 PM
HoustonPelicans

Quote:

Originally Posted by As I See It

You drew the comparison, not me, remember?

You were the one that compared him to a fired coach, not me, Tex!! I only called you on it.

I was literally asked the question "where would Gentry have this team completely healthy?" and I answered the question. I did not bring up Gentry. Don't tell half truths and purposefully put things out of context.
04-07-2021, 06:07 PM
As I See It

Tex, there is a difference between a:

Declarative Sentence: States a fact or opinion.
Interrogative Sentence: Asks a question.

It's third grade English.

Aside: Interrogatives use a question mark
04-07-2021, 06:10 PM
HoustonPelicans

Quote:

Originally Posted by As I See It

Tex, there is a difference between a:

Declarative Sentence: States a fact or opinion.
Interrogative Sentence: Asks a question.

It's third grade English.

Aside: Interrogatives use a question mark

This is what I replied to since you are choosing to be dishonest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6warddude

question...do you think if gentry were coaching this healthy team that we would be a top 5 seed right now or in the playoff seeding as of today?...
04-07-2021, 06:14 PM
13 - 3

We can go back and forth on this for 30 pages but Taker is right. You got to start from the top. Who is doing the moves? His seat might be getting warm.
04-07-2021, 06:25 PM
As I See It

Remember, Tex, you claimed that Gentry was capable of more. Then I asked...

Quote:

Originally Posted by As I See It

What exactly are you basing your faith in Gentry on?

His track record?

Do you think he could get more out of Bledsoe this year than he got out of Holiday last season?

I beg to differ with you about SVG not putting the players in position to win games. How many double digit leads have the players squandered this year?

I think we all have to come to terms with the roster, OVERALL; it's woefully weak.

You are all over the place, Tex.
04-07-2021, 06:27 PM
Pelicanidae

I think that part of the problem is kind of a sense of warped expectation.

Griffin came in and traded AD and then the next season traded Jrue Holiday. Within the span of a single 12 month period, the longest tenured Pelican was suddenly a 20 year old who had played less than half a season. It was clear that whatever pretty words Griff fed the media, we were in for a period of rebuild. He talked a lot of game about trying to compete instead of bottoming out, playing games that matter, et cetera, and of course there's value in that, but at the end of the day when you refit a team so dramatically in such a short space of time and then hire a new coach you are rebuilding and you are going to be not-very-good for a while.

That's where we are. We're not good. We're rebuilding.

How does a rebuilding team get good again? They acquire more talent, as the underlying baseline. It doesn't matter how clever your coach is or how many draft picks you have in the bank, if you don't have good NBA players on your roster you will not win games flat out, simple as.

Acquiring that talent, either by waiting for the guys to come onto the market and trading for them, internal player development, or drafting, takes some time. It sucks to wait, and people have been fed a lot of false expectations because of Griff's insistence that we're trying to compete, but the reality is that we just have to be a patient.

Next season marks the time when things need to really start solidifying, because by then we will know what is happening with Hart and Lonzo, we will have had multiple full seasons of Ingram, we will have had (hopefully) a full season + a training camp with the new coach, and therefore we will be able to properly evaluate the direction of the team. If we still suck midway three next year then I can see the questioning ramping up big time, because we need a direction clearly being put into action. But I think we do have to have that patience.
04-07-2021, 06:53 PM
6warddude

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

I think that part of the problem is kind of a sense of warped expectation.

Griffin came in and traded AD and then the next season traded Jrue Holiday. Within the span of a single 12 month period, the longest tenured Pelican was suddenly a 20 year old who had played less than half a season. It was clear that whatever pretty words Griff fed the media, we were in for a period of rebuild. He talked a lot of game about trying to compete instead of bottoming out, playing games that matter, et cetera, and of course there's value in that, but at the end of the day when you refit a team so dramatically in such a short space of time and then hire a new coach you are rebuilding and you are going to be not-very-good for a while.

That's where we are. We're not good. We're rebuilding.

How does a rebuilding team get good again? They acquire more talent, as the underlying baseline. It doesn't matter how clever your coach is or how many draft picks you have in the bank, if you don't have good NBA players on your roster you will not win games flat out, simple as.

Acquiring that talent, either by waiting for the guys to come onto the market and trading for them, internal player development, or drafting, takes some time. It sucks to wait, and people have been fed a lot of false expectations because of Griff's insistence that we're trying to compete, but the reality is that we just have to be a patient.

Next season marks the time when things need to really start solidifying, because by then we will know what is happening with Hart and Lonzo, we will have had multiple full seasons of Ingram, we will have had (hopefully) a full season + a training camp with the new coach, and therefore we will be able to properly evaluate the direction of the team. If we still suck midway three next year then I can see the questioning ramping up big time, because we need a direction clearly being put into action. But I think we do have to have that patience.

im with you on the patience thang.....im giving this whole season a pass because of everything that went on with this season...

do you think we are starting next season with the same starting 5 and same bench players in naw,,lewis and jax?.........

do naw replace lonzo?.....

do we draft bpa or do we draft for need looking at how our roster might be the same next season?.......who that rookie might be if for need?.........do we move up in the draft...

i honestly believe we will have 2 new faces in the rotation next season to start the season off with......if so is that building in the right direction?...
04-07-2021, 07:53 PM
As I See It

Tex,

Zion missed six free throws in first half tonight. That should be enough to get SVG fired, huh?
04-07-2021, 08:36 PM
Pelicanidae

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6warddude

im with you on the patience thang.....im giving this whole season a pass because of everything that went on with this season...

do you think we are starting next season with the same starting 5 and same bench players in naw,,lewis and jax?.........

do naw replace lonzo?.....

do we draft bpa or do we draft for need looking at how our roster might be the same next season?.......who that rookie might be if for need?.........do we move up in the draft...

i honestly believe we will have 2 new faces in the rotation next season to start the season off with......if so is that building in the right direction?...

Always draft best player available, unless you have very specific circumstances. We need talent, flat out, at almost every spot. BPA.
04-08-2021, 12:16 AM
new city champ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

I think that part of the problem is kind of a sense of warped expectation.

Griffin came in and traded AD and then the next season traded Jrue Holiday. Within the span of a single 12 month period, the longest tenured Pelican was suddenly a 20 year old who had played less than half a season. It was clear that whatever pretty words Griff fed the media, we were in for a period of rebuild. He talked a lot of game about trying to compete instead of bottoming out, playing games that matter, et cetera, and of course there's value in that, but at the end of the day when you refit a team so dramatically in such a short space of time and then hire a new coach you are rebuilding and you are going to be not-very-good for a while.

That's where we are. We're not good. We're rebuilding.

How does a rebuilding team get good again? They acquire more talent, as the underlying baseline. It doesn't matter how clever your coach is or how many draft picks you have in the bank, if you don't have good NBA players on your roster you will not win games flat out, simple as.

Acquiring that talent, either by waiting for the guys to come onto the market and trading for them, internal player development, or drafting, takes some time. It sucks to wait, and people have been fed a lot of false expectations because of Griff's insistence that we're trying to compete, but the reality is that we just have to be a patient.

Next season marks the time when things need to really start solidifying, because by then we will know what is happening with Hart and Lonzo, we will have had multiple full seasons of Ingram, we will have had (hopefully) a full season + a training camp with the new coach, and therefore we will be able to properly evaluate the direction of the team. If we still suck midway three next year then I can see the questioning ramping up big time, because we need a direction clearly being put into action. But I think we do have to have that patience.

Heading into the summer of 2019, not even two full years ago, the Phoenix Suns were coming off a season where they went 19-63. They ended up with the 11th overall pick in that draft, and were roundly laughed at for taking a limited spot-up shooting forward who most felt would go at the end of the first round, at best. The Pels, of course, got the first overall pick and a player tabbed for generational greatness + plus a huge haul of draft picks and prospects from the Lakers, one of whom became an all-star the following year and the other two who are considered, at minimum, solid rotation guys on a winning team.

Yet today, not even two years later, the Suns sit near the top of the tough Western conference and it's the Pels who don't seem appreciably better despite all the largess that landed in their laps. This is legit disappointing. I'm not even asking for us to be where the Suns are--though their transformation shows a quick rebuild is possible in the NBA in spite of what all the "process" fan boys preach. My "warped expectation" is for the Pels to be .500 or better, where, say the Grizzlies or Mavs now sit, two teams who were also bottom dwellers in the summer of '19. But we are not. The Suns are so far ahead of us they are out of sight and the Mavs, Grizzlies and several others are pulling away down the stretch.

One of the benefits of league pass I like is re-watching games while listening to the other teams' announcers. It gives a useful outside perspective. I promise it is rare for a game to go by without the opposing commentators looking at the Pelicans and asking: "I can't figure out why this team isn't better? Something is wrong here." I share their puzzlement. Did I miss something? Did we somehow sign up for the 8-year rebuild while other teams took the 3-year plan?
04-08-2021, 12:20 AM
pelicanchamp

To get to the next level our team needs to actually contest three point shots.

We should sign Mike Conley. Yes, old guy Conley. He?s an amazing player and will be good for a good while. If we can?t get Conley I?d try getting TJ McCollum. Let Lonzo go. He?s not interested in staying in Nola. Maybe try a sign and trade with Miami for Duncan Robinson... I also like Diallo from the Pistons. Or Oubre from GSW. Otto Porter is another player I?d consider trying to get in offseason.

Zion has been an absolute DISASTER on defense. It?s inexcusable how terrible his defense is. I would demand he learn how to play better defense. He is part of the reason our defense sucks so bad.

Also, we gotta do well in the draft.

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04-08-2021, 12:37 AM
Pelicanidae

Quote:

Originally Posted by new city champ

Yet today, not even two years later, the Suns sit near the top of the tough Western conference and it's the Pels who don't seem appreciably better despite all the largess that landed in their laps. This is legit disappointing. I'm not even asking for us to be where the Suns are--though their transformation shows a quick rebuild is possible in the NBA in spite of what all the "process" fan boys preach. My "warped expectation" is for the Pels to be .500 or better, where, say the Grizzlies or Mavs now sit, two teams who were also bottom dwellers in the summer of '19. But we are not. The Suns are so far ahead of us they are out of sight and the Mavs, Grizzlies and several others are pulling away down the stretch.

One of the benefits of league pass I like is re-watching games while listening to the other teams' announcers. It gives a useful outside perspective. I promise it is rare for a game to go by without the opposing commentators looking at the Pelicans and asking: "I can't figure out why this team isn't better? Something is wrong here." I share their puzzlement. Did I miss something? Did we somehow sign up for the 8-year rebuild while other teams took the 3-year plan?

The Suns acquired Chris Paul. We didn't.

The Suns saw outlier internal development from Mikal Bridges, one of their wings. We didn't see the same from, for example, Hart.

Instead, we saw regression from guys like Redick and Melli.

It's nothing to do with a 3 year plan VS an 8 year plan. You have a plan. If you get lucky and all your guys progress linearly together and you cash in your assets to acquire the Greatest Point Guard of All Time, yeah your plan speeds up a bit. If you have internal regression on a bunch of your players and you hold your assets out waiting for a later trade, it takes a bit longer, obviously.

There's a lot wrong with this team. Lots needs fixing. But you can't just grit your teeth and get mad and scream at the team to get better, it doesn't work like that. The players have to take the leap, or you have to get the lucky draft pick, or you have to cash in on the guy when he becomes available. Our players didn't take the leap, we didn't cash in on the guy, and our draft pick - while I think Kira is going to be fine - didn't leap up 10 spots in the lottery by luck. So we didn't fast-track anything this year. Does that suck? Yeah. But it's entirely understandable why and it's not a mystery or a confusion.

If KAT becomes available in the offseason and we cash in and acquire him and we see internal improvement over the summer from Jax and NAW and Kira and then somehow despite improved play from those guys and additional talent we still suck, then yeah that'll be a confusing mystery. As of right now, us being bad makes complete sense.
04-08-2021, 01:10 AM
new city champ

Points where I guess we just disagree:

1. You write as if us sucking like this was inevitable. It wasn't and there should be accountability for that outcome.

2. As of, say, June 1, 2019, we certainly had as many if not more assets than the Suns, Mavs or Grizzlies, yet they have all improved more than we have.

3. You write as if it is irrational to be disappointed about that outcome. I think it's very rational. Undergirding your position, I guess, is the belief that I and apparently many, many other people, have misjudged the talent level on this team. I disagree. I think the team has significantly underperformed its level of talent.

4. Even if conceded, for the sake of argument, that the talent level is low, who is responsible for this situation and why aren't you judging them by the performance of the peers (i.e. teams that also sucked two years ago) in rebuilding their rosters? Is that not fair? If not, why not? Again, two years ago the Suns finished 19-63. Today they are 36-14. Two years ago the Mavs finished 33-49. Today they are 28-22. Two years ago the Grizzlies finished 33-49. Today they are 26-23 despite missing one of their best players all season.

Sorry, given all the Pels have received I don't think expectations that they would be a better than .500 club right are at all warped. I actually think accepting that they are 22-29 and out of the playoffs is much more bent. What's more I think even people inside the organization believe the team has substantially underperformed their own expectations, to say nothing of fans, the media or keyboard jockeys like us...
04-08-2021, 01:40 AM
Pelicans_fan_504

Quote:

Originally Posted by new city champ

Heading into the summer of 2019, not even two full years ago, the Phoenix Suns were coming off a season where they went 19-63. They ended up with the 11th overall pick in that draft, and were roundly laughed at for taking a limited spot-up shooting forward who most felt would go at the end of the first round, at best. The Pels, of course, got the first overall pick and a player tabbed for generational greatness + plus a huge haul of draft picks and prospects from the Lakers, one of whom became an all-star the following year and the other two who are considered, at minimum, solid rotation guys on a winning team.

Yet today, not even two years later, the Suns sit near the top of the tough Western conference and it's the Pels who don't seem appreciably better despite all the largess that landed in their laps. This is legit disappointing. I'm not even asking for us to be where the Suns are--though their transformation shows a quick rebuild is possible in the NBA in spite of what all the "process" fan boys preach. My "warped expectation" is for the Pels to be .500 or better, where, say the Grizzlies or Mavs now sit, two teams who were also bottom dwellers in the summer of '19. But we are not. The Suns are so far ahead of us they are out of sight and the Mavs, Grizzlies and several others are pulling away down the stretch.

One of the benefits of league pass I like is re-watching games while listening to the other teams' announcers. It gives a useful outside perspective. I promise it is rare for a game to go by without the opposing commentators looking at the Pelicans and asking: "I can't figure out why this team isn't better? Something is wrong here." I share their puzzlement. Did I miss something? Did we somehow sign up for the 8-year rebuild while other teams took the 3-year plan?

In what universe did it take the Suns 3 years to rebuild, they haven't made the playoffs since 2010.
04-08-2021, 04:53 AM
Pelicanidae

Quote:

Originally Posted by new city champ

Points where I guess we just disagree:

1. You write as if us sucking like this was inevitable. It wasn't and there should be accountability for that outcome.

2. As of, say, June 1, 2019, we certainly had as many if not more assets than the Suns, Mavs or Grizzlies, yet they have all improved more than we have.

3. You write as if it is irrational to be disappointed about that outcome. I think it's very rational. Undergirding your position, I guess, is the belief that I and apparently many, many other people, have misjudged the talent level on this team. I disagree. I think the team has significantly underperformed its level of talent.

4. Even if conceded, for the sake of argument, that the talent level is low, who is responsible for this situation and why aren't you judging them by the performance of the peers (i.e. teams that also sucked two years ago) in rebuilding their rosters? Is that not fair? If not, why not? Again, two years ago the Suns finished 19-63. Today they are 36-14. Two years ago the Mavs finished 33-49. Today they are 28-22. Two years ago the Grizzlies finished 33-49. Today they are 26-23 despite missing one of their best players all season.

Sorry, given all the Pels have received I don't think expectations that they would be a better than .500 club right are at all warped. I actually think accepting that they are 22-29 and out of the playoffs is much more bent. What's more I think even people inside the organization believe the team has substantially underperformed their own expectations, to say nothing of fans, the media or keyboard jockeys like us...

It's not inevitable that we suck, it's inevitable that we suck if the talent level on the team wasn't improved in some manner. It wasn't, so we're not better.

And, new city champ points out, the Suns rebuild didn't happen in one or two years. It's been a huge rebuild that's been going on for years and years: they're finally ready to make the playoffs this year. Why? Cause they've improved their roster enough now to warrant it, with the CP3 + Mikal Bridges improvements tipping them over the top.

The talent level is low. Who is responsible? Griff, in large part. However, that is part of the sucking strategy: when you trade away your two best players in subsequent offseasons you are accepting a degree of being bad for a while, I said that already. The question is how quickly can we rebound from that.

Two years ago the Grizzlies finished 33-49, today they're 26-23. I wonder if anything happened at all to explain that? Maybe they lost their two best players in Gasol and Conley and then saw massive overall improvements in the team by signing/drafting a ton of really talented players, that might explain it.

Similarly, I wonder if the Mavericks did anything in the last few years to improve dramatically. Maybe traded for an all-star big and saw internal improvement take one of their players to MVP level? Might explain it.
04-08-2021, 06:32 AM
13 - 3

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pelicans_fan_504

In what universe did it take the Suns 3 years to rebuild, they haven't made the playoffs since 2010.

They don’t want to hear it. Or the Memphis Grizzlies either. Or the Atlanta Hawks.
04-08-2021, 07:38 AM
MichaelMcNamara

The Vegas over/under was 36.5 - and that had built into it that injuries and covid would occur, not that we would be the healthiest team in the league through the first half of the season. Yet, we were nowhere near that number despite amazing fortune.

Its lazy to say that we werent supposed to be good. Maybe not great, but with amazing injury luck at least average. Heck, the Grizzlies - who nobody would have said had more talent thatn the Pels heading into the year - have been missing their 2nd best player all year are 5 games ahead of us

Its a defense mechanism to say this team is rebuilding and we shouldnt have expected a good team. No - the Thunder are rebuilding. THAT is what a rebuilding team looks like, and until they completely shut it down to tank, they were winning as much as the Pels.

Gotta at least be intellectually honest. Don't just type what makes you feel better by justifying what is a decade plus trend of this franchise grossly underachieving.
04-08-2021, 08:18 AM
Fedupfan

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

The Vegas over/under was 36.5 - and that had built into it that injuries and covid would occur, not that we would be the healthiest team in the league through the first half of the season. Yet, we were nowhere near that number despite amazing fortune.

Its lazy to say that we werent supposed to be good. Maybe not great, but with amazing injury luck at least average. Heck, the Grizzlies - who nobody would have said had more talent thatn the Pels heading into the year - have been missing their 2nd best player all year are 5 games ahead of us

Its a defense mechanism to say this team is rebuilding and we shouldnt have expected a good team. No - the Thunder are rebuilding. THAT is what a rebuilding team looks like, and until they completely shut it down to tank, they were winning as much as the Pels.

Gotta at least be intellectually honest. Don't just type what makes you feel better by justifying what is a decade plus trend of this franchise grossly underachieving.

Amen! Couldn?t have said it better. People want to feel better about constant losing by saying it?s expected. The truth is they should be winning a lot more.
04-08-2021, 08:21 AM
HoustonPelicans

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

I think that part of the problem is kind of a sense of warped expectation.

Griffin came in and traded AD and then the next season traded Jrue Holiday. Within the span of a single 12 month period, the longest tenured Pelican was suddenly a 20 year old who had played less than half a season. It was clear that whatever pretty words Griff fed the media, we were in for a period of rebuild. He talked a lot of game about trying to compete instead of bottoming out, playing games that matter, et cetera, and of course there's value in that, but at the end of the day when you refit a team so dramatically in such a short space of time and then hire a new coach you are rebuilding and you are going to be not-very-good for a while.

That's where we are. We're not good. We're rebuilding.

How does a rebuilding team get good again? They acquire more talent, as the underlying baseline. It doesn't matter how clever your coach is or how many draft picks you have in the bank, if you don't have good NBA players on your roster you will not win games flat out, simple as.

Acquiring that talent, either by waiting for the guys to come onto the market and trading for them, internal player development, or drafting, takes some time. It sucks to wait, and people have been fed a lot of false expectations because of Griff's insistence that we're trying to compete, but the reality is that we just have to be a patient.

Next season marks the time when things need to really start solidifying, because by then we will know what is happening with Hart and Lonzo, we will have had multiple full seasons of Ingram, we will have had (hopefully) a full season + a training camp with the new coach, and therefore we will be able to properly evaluate the direction of the team. If we still suck midway three next year then I can see the questioning ramping up big time, because we need a direction clearly being put into action. But I think we do have to have that patience.

If your argument is that Griff committed to a rebuild with 2 all stars on his team. He should be fired. That is completely inexplicable. I don't care how old they are. They are allstars. Don't waste any years of their careers.
04-08-2021, 08:49 AM
DaFranchise80

I’ll reserve judgment until the 2022 trade deadline. As for the present, I just want to see continued development from Zion, Jax, Kira, NAW, and Lonzo.
04-08-2021, 09:12 AM
Erose

My two cents.

1) Let the young guys develop including Zion. That should be the focus for the rest of the year. Sucks that all of them but Zion is hurt right now.
2) Don?t overpay Ball or Hart. The team needs to have a figure in mind for both, and it shouldn?t be a high figure for either (IMO) and if some other team offers more than that figure let them walk. IMO both are role players, and role players aren?t getting $20 plus million on an championship caliper team.
3) Surround Zion and BI with 3 & D players when possible. I think that NAW and Kira will be 3&D players so that helps. But they need as many as they can get their hands on.
4) To speed this up, if possible use the money that you saved from not overpaying Ball and/or Hart and get you a veteran closer on this team. IMO that is the biggest missing piece on this team for years. We do not have that guy that is willing to make that shot. Not saying Ingram and/or Zion won?t be that guy eventually, but right now they aren?t.
5) Hopefully with a full offseason, SVG can finally get his defense pushed into the psyche of this team. I?m a firm believer that if this team can be just a mid level defensive team, then they are in the playoffs. This has to be THE focus of this coaching staff this offseason.

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04-08-2021, 09:12 AM
PolishFan

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaFranchise80

I’ll reserve judgment until the 2022 trade deadline. As for the present, I just want to see continued development from Zion, Jax, Kira, NAW, and Lonzo.

This, and still some development from BI especially in closing out the games
04-08-2021, 09:21 AM
MichaelMcNamara

I wouldnt have hated this record the last two years if we accumulated assets and didnt give any away. Again, like OKC. But we made buyer moves (Favors, JJ, Adams) and while all were small, they added up. Could have taken the same cap space and taken on Iggy or Horford, etc and gained picks instead of sending out a first and 4 seconds for Favors and Adams (not to mention the seconds you could have got for Hill)

If we were really rebuilding and had an extra two firsts and six seconds in the chamber by using that cap space differently, then I would have ZERO problem with where we are record wise and development wise. But we made buyer moves. We gave up assets. We pushed up right against the tax and couldnt use the MLE or BAE. All that for what? Two non-playoff seasons. You could have accomplished that without giving up picks.

Its a failure by any and all measures the last two years. The best thing you could say is that Zion has improved, but the reality is that a talent like that would have always been elite regardless of the situation his first two years. Would be much nicer to have him and way more flexibility and picks to add talent around him, wouldnt it?
04-08-2021, 10:09 AM
13 - 3

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

I wouldnt have hated this record the last two years if we accumulated assets and didnt give any away. Again, like OKC. But we made buyer moves (Favors, JJ, Adams) and while all were small, they added up. Could have taken the same cap space and taken on Iggy or Horford, etc and gained picks instead of sending out a first and 4 seconds for Favors and Adams (not to mention the seconds you could have got for Hill)

If we were really rebuilding and had an extra two firsts and six seconds in the chamber by using that cap space differently, then I would have ZERO problem with where we are record wise and development wise. But we made buyer moves. We gave up assets. We pushed up right against the tax and couldnt use the MLE or BAE. All that for what? Two non-playoff seasons. You could have accomplished that without giving up picks.

Its a failure by any and all measures the last two years. The best thing you could say is that Zion has improved, but the reality is that a talent like that would have always been elite regardless of the situation his first two years. Would be much nicer to have him and way more flexibility and picks to add talent around him, wouldnt it?

Should have kept Kenrich too. We still on same page?
04-08-2021, 10:10 AM
PELICANSFAN

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

I wouldnt have hated this record the last two years if we accumulated assets and didnt give any away. Again, like OKC. But we made buyer moves (Favors, JJ, Adams) and while all were small, they added up. Could have taken the same cap space and taken on Iggy or Horford, etc and gained picks instead of sending out a first and 4 seconds for Favors and Adams (not to mention the seconds you could have got for Hill)

If we were really rebuilding and had an extra two firsts and six seconds in the chamber by using that cap space differently, then I would have ZERO problem with where we are record wise and development wise. But we made buyer moves. We gave up assets. We pushed up right against the tax and couldnt use the MLE or BAE. All that for what? Two non-playoff seasons. You could have accomplished that without giving up picks.

Its a failure by any and all measures the last two years. The best thing you could say is that Zion has improved, but the reality is that a talent like that would have always been elite regardless of the situation his first two years. Would be much nicer to have him and way more flexibility and picks to add talent around him, wouldnt it?

Agree with the sentiment. I never understood the Adams trade. That was a mistake IMO.
04-08-2021, 10:58 AM
JJackisangry

Quote:

Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

Agree with the sentiment. I never understood the Adams trade. That was a mistake IMO.

It was mainly a mistake because we didn’t offload Bledsoe. The overpay would have made a bit more sense if we had gotten rid of his contract as well. OKC skinned us and ran. We shouldn’t have made that deal unless they took him.
04-08-2021, 11:29 AM
MichaelMcNamara

Quote:

Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

Agree with the sentiment. I never understood the Adams trade. That was a mistake IMO.

I would love to pull up that original thread because it felt at the time like there was 3 of us (at most) really against it, 60 percent saying it was fine, 20 percent who didnt like it at first but talked themselves into it being fine within two days, and 20 percent who liked it. I want to see receipts
04-08-2021, 12:16 PM
6warddude

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

The Vegas over/under was 36.5 - and that had built into it that injuries and covid would occur, not that we would be the healthiest team in the league through the first half of the season. Yet, we were nowhere near that number despite amazing fortune.

Its lazy to say that we werent supposed to be good. Maybe not great, but with amazing injury luck at least average. Heck, the Grizzlies - who nobody would have said had more talent thatn the Pels heading into the year - have been missing their 2nd best player all year are 5 games ahead of us

Its a defense mechanism to say this team is rebuilding and we shouldnt have expected a good team. No - the Thunder are rebuilding. THAT is what a rebuilding team looks like, and until they completely shut it down to tank, they were winning as much as the Pels.

Gotta at least be intellectually honest. Don't just type what makes you feel better by justifying what is a decade plus trend of this franchise grossly underachieving.

agree...before the injuries this team should have been in the 5-8 playoff seed......

loosing to the t-wolves twice while that team was short handed was rock bottom for me......close losses to denver,,portland.....the first pacers game were also a emotional drainer....

i expected to be going to playoff games this season....hell, ingram had me sold when he told griff and co. that he dont intend on missing the playoffs again after the bubble disgrace.....

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