We're all getting frustrated at taking Hayes @ 8 but....

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Yeah I don't really agree with that at all

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I guess I shouldn't have stated it so generally. He has by far the lowest functional IQ in the starting lineup right now.

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Originally Posted by pelafanatic

I guess I shouldn't have stated it so generally. He has by far the lowest functional IQ in the starting lineup right now.

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Maybe its not ZION with the lowest functioning IQ ! :huh2:

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Originally Posted by Tinman

Maybe its not ZION with the lowest functioning IQ ! :huh2:

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Lmao yea I absolutely misspoke

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Originally Posted by pelafanatic

Zion's IQ is still basically zero. He's just an otherwordly talent so he doesn't necessarily look as lost offensively, but he is. He's just as lost defensively as Hayes is. The only way for these guys to learn is by giving them minutes. If Stan Van Gundy didn't think Jax was up for the challenge, he wouldn't have given him 17 minutes last night. I can promise you that.

SVG is making far too much money and has far too many years left on his deal to succumb from pressure from management to play Jax. He is playing him because he's earned the minutes in practice and throughout his work in the offseason. I know this because I was told there was pressure to play NAW and, yet, here we are.

So far Jax has done the little things in setting screens, positioning on the defensive glass, and a reducing in his fouling. Let the kid grow.

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Not sure where you get that from. Zion does not have zero basketball IQ at all, not even close. I think we have a completely different view of basketball IQ.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

Not sure where you get that from. Zion does not have zero basketball IQ at all, not even close. I think we have a completely different view of basketball IQ.

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My point was it's not functional at the moment. The game is way too fast for him right now. Zion has a higher bball IQ than Jax, no question, but it's not necessarily translating yet because he's still so young. I should've been more clear

Again, its not a knock to say a 20 year old has a low bball IQ. BI was just on JJ's podcast talking about how the game is finally starting to slow down for him from a playmaking perspective. This is a guy who is in year 5. It should be expected that these guys are a step or 2 slow

does anyone know if Magnay has joined the team yet or not? We talk a little about Hernongomez, but I have heard nothing about Magnay at all lately....

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Originally Posted by pelafanatic

Yea honestly I hated most of the prospects in last years draft. I still don't really think anyone outside of the top 2 are good right now. I think RJ will be good if he's ever in the right situation. Herro benefits from being in the best possible situation he could've gone to, but I think there's still a ton of development left for him to really be considered a starter on a championship team. Regardless, I'd obviously rather Herro than Jax right now.

We can talk all we want about who we should've taken at 8, but outside of those 4, I'm still of the opinion that Hayes has the most upside in that draft. What the Pels FO realizes that, for some reason, the fan base does not is that there's no reason to rush the process. We're not winning anything this year outside of maybe a play-in game, so develop your talent even if it means dropping a game here and there.

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I mean Garland, Hunter, Rui, and Reddish all look like starter quality players right now.

Garland is averaging 19-8-4 to start the season, Hunter 13-7-2 after a solid rookie campaign, Reddish 10-5 on efficient shooting and playing borderline elite D, Rui is injured but finished last year efficiently and solidly.

I?m not writing Hayes off either, he was the rawest prospect in the top of the draft, but what does concern me is not just the track record of his type of prospect but that a lot of the issues I see aren?t just the complexity of the new system, it’s effort and messing up very simple read and react stuff most players that have played some level of competitive basketball understand. And while we chalk a lot of the rebounding issue up to filling out his frame, he’s been poor going back to High School. That lack of seeing some clear progression in his development is concerning.

As for how to go about this season, I actually agree, and in that regard I hope SVG will soon get some minutes in for our other guards so they can be developed as well. Since as is the schedule isn’t really affording many opportunities to hold practice it would seem. So I don’t want this to be a wasted season for Kira and NAW.

I think the fact that we got Adams makes Jax infinitely more valuable. Not only is the burden much less on him to be great now, he can study under one of the best bigs in the game while logging significant minutes to boot. Not concerned one bit about Hayes. I am concerned about Nickeil. Is he sleeping with Stan/Gentry’s daughters simultaneously? Part of me blames Stan because he is running 8-man 9man rotations. He can afford to add one more. Is there something going on behind the scenes with NAW? It’s one of those things that will probably stay in the locker room for the foreseeable future.

Of the top 13 picks in the 2019 the two players with the fewest minutes played thus far in their careers are JAXSON (1,107) and injured Zion (774)

Of the top 13 picks in the 2019, JAXSON has the lowest scoring average (7.1)

Of the top 13 picks in the 2019 Draft, JAXSON has the best shooting percentage (.669)

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Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

I mean Garland, Hunter, Rui, and Reddish all look like starter quality players right now.

Garland is averaging 19-8-4 to start the season, Hunter 13-7-2 after a solid rookie campaign, Reddish 10-5 on efficient shooting and playing borderline elite D, Rui is injured but finished last year efficiently and solidly.

I?m not writing Hayes off either, he was the rawest prospect in the top of the draft, but what does concern me is not just the track record of his type of prospect but that a lot of the issues I see aren?t just the complexity of the new system, it’s effort and messing up very simple read and react stuff most players that have played some level of competitive basketball understand. And while we chalk a lot of the rebounding issue up to filling out his frame, he’s been poor going back to High School. That lack of seeing some clear progression in his development is concerning.

As for how to go about this season, I actually agree, and in that regard I hope SVG will soon get some minutes in for our other guards so they can be developed as well. Since as is the schedule isn’t really affording many opportunities to hold practice it would seem. So I don’t want this to be a wasted season for Kira and NAW.

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None of those players fit in this core tho.

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Originally Posted by Taker597

None of those players fit in this core tho.

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The point isnt to draft all players to fit the core to stay long term and all grow together. You want every guy you take to have some value - either for you or around the league so you can trade them for better fitting pieces.

And there is no debate that someone like Reddish would have a lot more value in a trade than Hayes has now.

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Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

I mean Garland, Hunter, Rui, and Reddish all look like starter quality players right now.

Garland is averaging 19-8-4 to start the season, Hunter 13-7-2 after a solid rookie campaign, Reddish 10-5 on efficient shooting and playing borderline elite D, Rui is injured but finished last year efficiently and solidly.

I?m not writing Hayes off either, he was the rawest prospect in the top of the draft, but what does concern me is not just the track record of his type of prospect but that a lot of the issues I see aren?t just the complexity of the new system, it’s effort and messing up very simple read and react stuff most players that have played some level of competitive basketball understand. And while we chalk a lot of the rebounding issue up to filling out his frame, he’s been poor going back to High School. That lack of seeing some clear progression in his development is concerning.

As for how to go about this season, I actually agree, and in that regard I hope SVG will soon get some minutes in for our other guards so they can be developed as well. Since as is the schedule isn’t really affording many opportunities to hold practice it would seem. So I don’t want this to be a wasted season for Kira and NAW.

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the lack of effort and being lazy at times is what drive me crazy about hayes....

I dont see laziness at all. I see a guy who has no idea what is going on out there and is a step (or seven) slow as a result. And could that improve? Sure. If he stays healthy he will likely be at least a solid backup in the league. Too long and athletically skilled not to be. But that will be years down the line, after he gets passed around and on minimum contracts (think what Marquisse Chriss was becoming before he just got hurt)

With Zion and Ingram as your core, you want positional and skill versatility. I still cant wrap my mind around taking a pure center with the 8th overall pick. And one so raw with no signs of having any above avg skill (let alone an elite one) yet. I just will never get it.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

The point isnt to draft all players to fit the core to stay long term and all grow together. You want every guy you take to have some value - either for you or around the league so you can trade them for better fitting pieces.

And there is no debate that someone like Reddish would have a lot more value in a trade than Hayes has now.

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The vague point that i lazy implied due to driving 10 hours is that the stats those players put up has no correlation to how they would do here is all. In fact the roster would probably be pretty different.

I get that this woulda coulda discussion is actually interesting to think in a vaccum. Trading back will always be viewed in mind as a bad move in the NBA draft in no matter how you argue it. Trading back isn't always beneficial move to find talent. The whole concept is find a talent that slips under the rader... Which happens and everything.

Although, it's pretty easy to look in hindsight that the vision last year during the draft was to invest in all the young talent you acquired through the AD trade. They wanted Lonzo amd Jrue to work. It didn't, but they still love Lonzo. MGMT... Be the way they are... If there is a 100 NBA front office moves, about only 15-20 of them are great.

I still like the NAW and Hayes picks. They are long term projects, but we got time. Garland, Hunter, and etc are better places that helps them showcase themselves better. Do I see them having that same impact here? Probably not.

This is off topic, but watching Christian Wood play makes me think how we missed a guy that would have been a good fit for this team... i read somewhere that it was because of his attitude that we let go of him... this guy can play though!

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Originally Posted by PaKwAn

This is off topic, but watching Christian Wood play makes me think how we missed a guy that would have been a good fit for this team... i read somewhere that it was because of his attitude that we let go of him... this guy can play though!

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Wood wouldn't come here to be a back up.

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Originally Posted by Taker597

Wood wouldn't come here to be a back up.

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Knowing what happened to favors when we signed him, we should of just tried and started wood instead of signing favors who was just a shell of himself when he played here... smart decision for wood though, cause he got himself paid.

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Originally Posted by PaKwAn

Knowing what happened to favors when we signed him, we should of just tried and started wood instead of signing favors who was just a shell of himself when he played here... smart decision for wood though, cause he got himself paid.

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Hindsight is 20/20. Favors had been a very very very good player for multiple years before that: there was no reason to expect his back to suddenly give out completely and for his mother to die, thus ruining his year. ''Knowing what happened to Favors, we should have done X'' is all very well to say, but there's no way to have known that at the time.

Thinking Wood should be a Pel isn’t really an ex post facto argument. As discussed on earlier threads, the clear expectation after the ‘18-‘19 season was that the Pels would bring him back. His 8-game try out had gone well, he was working out with the team in the offseason and on the Pels’ Summer League roster. Then, something. He doesn’t suit up for Summer League and the new regime opts to bring over Melli from Europe. So, there was a definite decision by Griff & Co. not to sign him. Question has always been “why?”

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Originally Posted by new city champ

Thinking Wood should be a Pel isn’t really an ex post facto argument. As discussed on earlier threads, the clear expectation after the ‘18-‘19 season was that the Pels would bring him back. His 8-game try out had gone well, he was working out with the team in the offseason and on the Pels’ Summer League roster. Then, something. He doesn’t suit up for Summer League and the new regime opts to bring over Melli from Europe. So, there was a definite decision by Griff & Co. not to sign him. Question has always been “why?”

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Thinking Wood should be a Pel isn't a post-hoc position, but thinking Wood should be a Pel because we should have somehow known what was going to happen to Favors is.

I said we should have kept Wood before the fact; not after. And, no, analytics is not my thing.

We can only hope that JAX will improve in a similar manner because, at present, JAX looks like the undrafted free agent and Wood, an Eighth overall draft selection.

By far, letting Wood go has been Griff's biggest slip-up since coming to New Orleans. Further, we could have probably gotten Wood back last summer for far less than it's cost us to bring in Adams (no slight on Adams, the second best player on this team - just a fact).

Wood was never going to be a Pelicans with Griff as the GM. He wants a certain type of culture and human being in the building. He talks about it ALL THE TIME.

I wont get into the details but if you know some of the off court things with Wood, you would know instantly that he was never going to be here. He could be on a 5 year minimum deal right now and Griff wouldnt take him.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Wood was never going to be a Pelicans with Griff as the GM. He wants a certain type of culture and human being in the building. He talks about it ALL THE TIME.

I wont get into the details but if you know some of the off court things with Wood, you would know instantly that he was never going to be here. He could be on a 5 year minimum deal right now and Griff wouldnt take him.

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Same deal with the pistons. They would literally take anyone but Wood. A lot of teams have a lot of concerns about Wood.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Wood was never going to be a Pelicans with Griff as the GM. He wants a certain type of culture and human being in the building. He talks about it ALL THE TIME.

I wont get into the details but if you know some of the off court things with Wood, you would know instantly that he was never going to be here. He could be on a 5 year minimum deal right now and Griff wouldnt take him.

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There's a reason that the only team he was linked to this offseason was the team with an abundance of locker room issues and nothing to lose

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

The point isnt to draft all players to fit the core to stay long term and all grow together. You want every guy you take to have some value - either for you or around the league so you can trade them for better fitting pieces.

And there is no debate that someone like Reddish would have a lot more value in a trade than Hayes has now.

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It was a bit curious to me that we did not take Reddish at 8. I would have thought that pairing him with Zion would have been a natural thought and he was considered a value pick at that point.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

It was a bit curious to me that we did not take Reddish at 8. I would have thought that pairing him with Zion would have been a natural thought and he was considered a value pick at that point.

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The legend of Cam Reddish is quickly becoming greater than his production. Most people going into the draft believed he was deeply flawed in key areas. His jumper is incredibly inconsistent; and, while he can jump in theory, he doesn't really have as much functional athleticism as you would think. His steal rate is his most appealing trait right now, to me.

I have heard that he's a pretty cool dude and would have fit well in our culture, so that's disappointing.

The difference between a project big and a project wing is that, at the end of the rookie deals, you have to pay project wings for their flashes. That isn't the case with project bigs, historically. The Raptors just brought Boucher back on a 2 year 13 million dollar deal, with the second year being unguaranteed. Poeltl just signed 3/26. Cauley-Stein is on 2/8. Even Myles Turner and Sabonis are only making 18 mil a year.

My point is, its possible that if you want to take a project, taking a big makes the most sense because it gives you a little more time before you have to pay out a huge contract. (Not sure I necessarily believe in this take)

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Originally Posted by pelafanatic

The legend of Cam Reddish is quickly becoming greater than his production. Most people going into the draft believed he was deeply flawed in key areas. His jumper is incredibly inconsistent; and, while he can jump in theory, he doesn't really have as much functional athleticism as you would think. His steal rate is his most appealing trait right now, to me.

I have heard that he's a pretty cool dude and would have fit well in our culture, so that's disappointing.

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I agree. Cam had a bunch of really obvious problems pre-draft, mostly to do with his offense. His defense was, and remains, extremely promising, but the offense has been extraordinarily up and down.

For example, last year (58 games) he was a 54% finisher at a rim, which for a guy of his size is very poor, and shot 31%, 35%, and 35% from the various stages of midrange (paint, close mid, long mid), to go with an overall 33% from 3. This year, of course, his numbers look very good, mostly from 3, but it's also 3 games in. Do I believe the jumper will have improved a bit? Yeah, sure I do, that's normal and it's not like he was without touch - he was a really good FT shooter last year. Do I think it's suddenly 40% on 7 a game? No, not really.

His defense is the thing I buy as being legitimate; the jumper I expect to be solid, maybe even quite good, but I would be fairly surprised if he was ever a super high volume sniper who can bury any shot.

And yeah, basically not an athlete in the traditional NBA sense at all. Poor leaper, off one foot or two, not explosive, has very little quick twitch acceleration.

I would like to take a minor victory lap for the success of Sabonis though, now you've mentioned him. I remember back when he was in OKC and people (not necessarily on this board in specific, just generally) were talking about how mediocre he looked and unimpressive, and I was one of the people who bought a lot of stock on Sabonis Island quite early on, so I'm glad to see him just looking fantastic.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

I would like to take a minor victory lap for the success of Sabonis though, now you've mentioned him. I remember back when he was in OKC and people (not necessarily on this board in specific, just generally) were talking about how mediocre he looked and unimpressive, and I was one of the people who bought a lot of stock on Sabonis Island quite early on, so I'm glad to see him just looking fantastic.

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I would also like to take a victory lap. I was high on Garland and thought we should trade for him this off-season. It's a small sample size but I think he's gonna have a good season, possibly MIP candidate.

Rewatching the Spurs game right now to specifically watch Jax. His run in the first half has actually been quite good. He talks alot defensively. His plus/minus (which does not matter) is a direct result of some horrible outside shooting by the Pels. Poeltl is a tough matchup for Jax, but he basically held his own the entire quarter.

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Originally Posted by pelafanatic

Rewatching the Spurs game right now to specifically watch Jax. His run in the first half has actually been quite good. He talks alot defensively. His plus/minus (which does not matter) is a direct result of some horrible outside shooting by the Pels. Poeltl is a tough matchup for Jax, but he basically held his own the entire quarter.

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2nd quarter: He's made two extremely nice bounce passes to cutters that haven't led to points because of missed layups. He needs to work on returning to his main after hedging on the screen defensively

Just finished Jax’s minutes and I have to say, his plus minus is a direct result of Bledsoe and JJ not being able to hit open 3s against the zone. I did not think he played poorly at all. He played a majority of his minutes against Poeltl and totally held his own strength-wise. If the Pels had anyone that could get him the ball in the PnR, he would’ve had a solid game

That being said, I think he needs to see some minutes with Ingram. I think their two man game could be really nice offensively. The only issue there may be defensive rebounding. Give the kid a shot. Let him continue to ply extensive minutes and find a rhythm

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Originally Posted by PeliKhan

I would also like to take a victory lap. I was high on Garland and thought we should trade for him this off-season. It's a small sample size but I think he's gonna have a good season, possibly MIP candidate.

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There was no way they were trading him this off-season. I thought if we had stayed at 4, he made a lot of sense, mainly due to his shooting. Loved Sabonis in college. His hustle was always there. Paid attention to him because I liked his dad when he played.

I'd also like to say after rewatching that game that Zion is beginning to turn a corner defensively. Had 5 steals the other night, and a number of those came from reading passing lanes prior to the pass being made. Stuff we haven't really seen since his Duke days. Once his mind catches up to his athleticism, he'll be a joy to watch on that end

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Originally Posted by pelafanatic

Just finished Jax?s minutes and I have to say, his plus minus is a direct result of Bledsoe and JJ not being able to hit open 3s against the zone. I did not think he played poorly at all. He played a majority of his minutes against Poeltl and totally held his own strength-wise. If the Pels had anyone that could get him the ball in the PnR, he would?ve had a solid game

That being said, I think he needs to see some minutes with Ingram. I think their two man game could be really nice offensively. The only issue there may be defensive rebounding. Give the kid a shot. Let him continue to ply extensive minutes and find a rhythm

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I agree. I think the Jax hate is getting a little carried away. I thought he showed some defensive improvement in the last game and did a better job at helping and then getting back to his man. He just happened to be in the game when the Spurs went into their zone defense which our shooters weren’t able to take advantage of.

well, jax should have a good game tonight..the suns backup bigs are bad just as ours......he should have about 8- 10 rebounds if he plays 10+ mins...

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Originally Posted by Freyfamilyreuni

I agree. I think the Jax hate is getting a little carried away. I thought he showed some defensive improvement in the last game and did a better job at helping and then getting back to his man. He just happened to be in the game when the Spurs went into their zone defense which our shooters weren’t able to take advantage of.

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I am of the firm opinion that he showed steady improvement over the course of his rookie season, and the advanced statistics back up that claim; while his counting numbers were not the gaudiest, he had some of the best impact statistics among his entire rookie class. Of course he has a long way to go, but he showed progress.

He needs experience, and he needs practice. This is obvious to everyone. But some people act like he's made precisely 2 good plays since entering the NBA and it's just blatantly misinformed.

Is it Hilton Hayes, of Jaxson Simmons?

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Originally Posted by UNO Gracias

Is it Hilton Hayes, of Jaxson Simmons?

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Or Larue Hayes or JAXSON Bowie.

(Both Portland Trail Blazer Lemons)

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Originally Posted by As I See It

Or Larue Hayes or JAXSON Bowie.

(Both Portland Trail Blazer Lemons)

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What’s sad is that both of those lemons (Simmons and Armstrong) were taken in the same draft.

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Originally Posted by As I See It

Or Larue Hayes or JAXSON Bowie.

(Both Portland Trail Blazer Lemons)

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What's sad about these lemons were that Larue Martin was the first overall pick in a draft that feature Hall of Famer's Bob McAdoo, and DR. J. And Sam Bowie (2nd overall pick) was drafted ahead of Air Jordan. [Larue played a total of 271 games (starts = 0)]

My worry with Hayes is he still hasnt learned how to set a screen properly and position his self correctly under the basket. I would sit him down with some Rudy Gobert film and build a blueprint for him. I can only hope.

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Originally Posted by Pels4Life

My worry with Hayes is he still hasnt learned how to set a screen properly and position his self correctly under the basket. I would sit him down with some Rudy Gobert film and build a blueprint for him. I can only hope.

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Just as an aside, I even more concerned that Eric Bledsoe (in his 11th year) doesn't know how to use a screen. He hung both Jaxson and Adams (and Zion I think) out to dry last night by not letting them come set before using them. Result Offensive fouls both.

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Originally Posted by Pels4Life

My worry with Hayes is he still hasnt learned how to set a screen properly and position his self correctly under the basket. I would sit him down with some Rudy Gobert film and build a blueprint for him. I can only hope.

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NAW hung hayes out to dry last night on screens....the times hayes came up to set the screens ,,NAW took off running before hayes could get set lol......now , NAW was waiting and using adams screens right and scoring off of them but for some reason he was making hayes look bad on screen setting last night...