This is on gentry

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Originally Posted by drortego316

To me this is a recipe for 4 years down the road he leaves on the first ride out of here and I wouldn't blame him. The dude was fine, probably gassed when they took him out in the 4th quarter but he should've went back in with 3 minutes left. The way they've handled Zion up to this point has probably left a bad taste in his mouth.

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O Lordy ! Gibberish .

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Originally Posted by UNO Gracias

People say that Zion looked tired, gassed, sluggish, but he sure wasn’t playing like it. Even then you could have told him, “listen Zion, I know you’re tired, but we need you for 3 more minutes. We got a couple of timeouts that we can use to help you catch your breath, but we need you.” Problem solved.

If this came from above, and wasn’t Gentry’s call that’s one thing (Lebron got Griff his championship), but I would have expected more push back from Gentry. If you know you are going to get ******** canned at the end of the season, go out in a blaze of glory giving the people what they want rather than a lineup that hadn’t worked all game.

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He looked gassed because he was gassed. He looked like a statue when Forbes blew right passed him for a layup. Zion was standing under the goal bending over pulling down on his shorts say hard, I'm surprised they didn't come off.

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Originally Posted by drortego316

To me this is a recipe for 4 years down the road he leaves on the first ride out of here and I wouldn't blame him. The dude was fine, probably gassed when they took him out in the 4th quarter but he should've went back in with 3 minutes left. The way they've handled Zion up to this point has probably left a bad taste in his mouth.

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That is really rushing to conclusions, imo. Zion's here in New Orleans pretty much for the next 7 years due to the rules of restricted free agency, and I very much doubt that he will be making his decision to stay or leave with a single thought of this game in his mind. In fact, I figure he probably won't even care too much about this game within two or three weeks. It's frustrating to be sat when you're feeling it, but only really in the moment. Zion's a smart kid, looking back he'll recognise why the med staff did it, even if he didn't agree with it, and he'll get over it.

I promise you that when we're wrecking shop in the playoffs next season and the years after that, Zion's memory of getting pulled 3 minutes early in his first game will be far from his conscious thought.

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Originally Posted by Tinman

Specious logic and rather shortsighted .

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Shortsighted? I'm always thinking about the long view. Which is why I was on board sitting Williamson the entire season so when he came back there would be no limits on his play. Call me what you want but taking a person that's always been in favor of stretched out meticulous rebuilds and calling them shortsighted seems very inaccurate.

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Originally Posted by Tinman

He looked gassed because he was gassed. He looked like a statue when Forbes blew right passed him for a layup. Zion was standing under the goal bending over pulling down on his shorts say hard, I'm surprised they didn't come off.

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Then you call a time out and let him catch his wind before sending him back out.

ESPN be showing his one foot landings last night. Whoever taught him the new landings well it went in one ear and out the other.

I dunno.

You really have to listen to your medical staff on this one. You are not going to get to the playoffs if hes crocked again!
Hype of the crowd can work against you physically, remember this with rushing back KD and Russ in OKC.

Should be celebrating that 3pt confidence!

Stephen A Smith will give his opinion on this situation on ESPN First Take.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

When that player comes back the next year. Which is what we should have done with Zion. Either he's not in danger of farther damage or he is.

It's not having better communication it's telling a flat out lie. Plus how in the world does a functional franchise not tell the coach that his player is on a mins restriction? Especially a player with this amount of publicity? Ignore all the red flags that you want but this is Knicks level incompetence.

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He has to get himself up to full speed, and you just can't do that by not playing. It's natural to bring him along by playing him in the game for short spurts, and then slowly lengthening that over time. It sucks to watch right now, but it makes no sense to delay that even further by waiting a whole offseason. At this stage, I trust Griffin and what has been the best training staff in the league for the last 20 years. If you don't, that's your call, but I feel people are making much ado about nothing.

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Originally Posted by 13 - 3

ESPN be showing his one foot landings last night. Whoever taught him the new landings well it went in one ear and out the other.

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You know that you can land on one foot and it's not inherently a bad landing? Obviously 2 feet landings are always preferable, but if you don't have the space or you've been knocked off balance in mid-air (as happened in this game a few times), it's perfectly possible to land on one foot and do it properly.

I just rewatched a highlights clip of all of his buckets, assists, and turnovers. In it, he made what I would call 8 real jumps last night: not little 6 inch hops, legitimate jumps. Of those 8, 6 were one footed landings, which is obviously not optimal, but of the 8 only 2 were what 'bad' landings. Another 2 were meh landings, where they weren't exactly what you'd want but for understandable reasons (lack of room to land, or getting shoved off line in mid air), and the remaining 4 were fine.

It takes time and practice to really nail down a new way of moving when your old ways are so ingrained. You expect a transition period where someone displays a mixture of the new and old. Last game was fine.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

That is really rushing to conclusions, imo. Zion's here in New Orleans pretty much for the next 7 years due to the rules of restricted free agency, and I very much doubt that he will be making his decision to stay or leave with a single thought of this game in his mind. In fact, I figure he probably won't even care too much about this game within two or three weeks. It's frustrating to be sat when you're feeling it, but only really in the moment. Zion's a smart kid, looking back he'll recognise why the med staff did it, even if he didn't agree with it, and he'll get over it.

I promise you that when we're wrecking shop in the playoffs next season and the years after that, Zion's memory of getting pulled 3 minutes early in his first game will be far from his conscious thought.

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I agree. You could already hear in his post game interview that he was acknowledging he was frustrated when the decision was made, but sounded accepting of it. He's 19. It's natural to be upset when you are having a good run and you're told you need to come out. When stepping out of the moment, cooler heads prevail and he understands why they're doing what they're doing.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

Shortsighted? I'm always thinking about the long view. Which is why I was on board sitting Williamson the entire season so when he came back there would be no limits on his play. Call me what you want but taking a person that's always been in favor of stretched out meticulous rebuilds and calling them shortsighted seems very inaccurate.

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Your view is not a "long view" no matter how much you want to call it that. It's an illogical over reaction. Sitting a healthy player an entire season does nothing but put more stress on the player to keep weight down and keep his skill level up. All you are actually doing is inviting MORE probability for injury next year not less.

I'm guessing you have never played organized basketball on even a semi elite level. But the only way to prepare yourself for what this game does to your body is to PLAY. Not get on a treadmill, not scrimmage, not play 3 on 3.

Holding him out all year when his body is ready for games is the most counter productive thing you can possibly ask for.

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Originally Posted by UNO Gracias

Then you call a time out and let him catch his wind before sending him back out.

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That's NOT how "catching your wind" works. Wow.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

Your view is not a "long view" no matter how much you want to call it that. It's an illogical over reaction. Sitting a healthy player an entire season does nothing but put more stress on the player to keep weight down and keep his skill level up. All you are actually doing is inviting MORE probability for injury next year not less.

I'm guessing you have never played organized basketball on even a semi elite level. But the only way to prepare yourself for what this game does to your body is to PLAY. Not get on a treadmill, not scrimmage, not play 3 on 3.

Holding him out all year when his body is ready for games is the most counter productive thing you can possibly ask for.

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Agree. Weaning would be the process regardless . Waiting until next year , when you can start the normalcy process now is literally wasting time!

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Originally Posted by Tinman

That's NOT how "catching your wind" works. Wow.

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He was not tired. A normal workload would have averaged 60pts for him last night. Easily defeat Spurs.

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Originally Posted by 13 - 3

He was not tired. A normal workload would have averaged 60pts for him last night. Easily defeat Spurs.

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Huh, that's odd. Zion on Woj POD said that he was a bit winded. Don't know about you, but I was sitting about 20 yards from Zion when he got blown by on defensive end & he was all but pulling his shorts to his ankles, while bent over under the goal. Working so hard to be contrary has to become tedious after a while.

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Originally Posted by 13 - 3

He was not tired. A normal workload would have averaged 60pts for him last night. Easily defeat Spurs.

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Just as a horse doesn't run 22.1 in the last quarter of a race. That loopy attempt at logic sounds silly.

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Originally Posted by Tinman

Just as a horse doesn't run 22.1 in the last quarter of a race. That loopy attempt at logic sounds silly.

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Listen to his postgame interview again.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

Your view is not a "long view" no matter how much you want to call it that. It's an illogical over reaction. Sitting a healthy player an entire season does nothing but put more stress on the player to keep weight down and keep his skill level up. All you are actually doing is inviting MORE probability for injury next year not less.

I'm guessing you have never played organized basketball on even a semi elite level. But the only way to prepare yourself for what this game does to your body is to PLAY. Not get on a treadmill, not scrimmage, not play 3 on 3.

Holding him out all year when his body is ready for games is the most counter productive thing you can possibly ask for.

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Keeping weight off is mostly dietary. So this argument that he needs to play to lose weight is ridiculous false. Zion carrying around 280 is likely to have a huge negative impact on his body.

Putting a guy on mins restriction says he's not fully ready. So the argument that he's 100% is again inaccurate.

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Originally Posted by DarkHornet

He has to get himself up to full speed, and you just can't do that by not playing. It's natural to bring him along by playing him in the game for short spurts, and then slowly lengthening that over time. It sucks to watch right now, but it makes no sense to delay that even further by waiting a whole offseason. At this stage, I trust Griffin and what has been the best training staff in the league for the last 20 years. If you don't, that's your call, but I feel people are making much ado about nothing.

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1st it's about the weight that Zion is currently at. I don't want him playing until he 15lbs lighter. 2nd I'm aware of easing a player back in. The question posed to me was when does a player not get eased back in. My response was when that player is given an entire off season to get back to full health and conditioning. I think it's far more important to have him miss development time on court to put development time into getting his body in place that will allow him to better handle the grid of the NBA schedule. It's the lesser evil. Zion can easily bounce back from missing the 2nd half of the season. If his body starts to break down that is not easily overcome.

I knew this tread was coming. Folks blame Gentry for the coronavirus that's infecting China.

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Originally Posted by 13 - 3

Listen to his postgame interview again.

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Got it. Players never fib. I watched the guy basically looking for an oxygen mask. I don't have to listen to an interview, when 40 minutes prior I was watching him sucking air.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

1st it's about the weight that Zion is currently at. I don't want him playing until he 15lbs lighter. 2nd I'm aware of easing a player back in. The question posed to me was when does a player not get eased back in. My response was when that player is given an entire off season to get back to full health and conditioning. I think it's far more important to have him miss development time on court to put development time into getting his body in place that will allow him to better handle the grid of the NBA schedule. It's the lesser evil. Zion can easily bounce back from missing the 2nd half of the season. If his body starts to break down that is not easily overcome.

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Imagine revamping your entire training staff to hire the absolute best trainer of the last 20 years, and then having a plan set out by both that expert trainer and also a group of trained medical professionals, and being like this.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

Keeping weight off is mostly dietary. So this argument that he needs to play to lose weight is ridiculous false. Zion carrying around 280 is likely to have a huge negative impact on his body.

Putting a guy on mins restriction says he's not fully ready. So the argument that he's 100% is again inaccurate.

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So, every NBA player that comes back from a long layoff after surgery immediately plays 35-40 minutes their first game back?

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Originally Posted by Tinman

Got it. Players never fib. I watched the guy basically looking for an oxygen mask. I don't have to listen to an interview, when 40 minutes prior I was watching him sucking air.

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Huge exaggeration. He was not that tired. You mention Forbes (a fast guard) blowing past him when he wasn't squared as the proof. I am sure he was starting to get winded just being his first game back, but he was not that bad at all.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

Keeping weight off is mostly dietary. So this argument that he needs to play to lose weight is ridiculous false. Zion carrying around 280 is likely to have a huge negative impact on his body.

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This tells me you don't have the slightest idea of what you're talking about. I posted a rather in depth article from people that study this in the team news thread. I suggest you go read it.

And I never said he's 100% and I'm not sure anybody did. But until he gets a few games under his belt, he won't be. Doesn't matter if it's this year or next. His first few games won't see him go past 20 minutes.

This is just common.

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Originally Posted by Tinman

Got it. Players never fib. I watched the guy basically looking for an oxygen mask. I don't have to listen to an interview, when 40 minutes prior I was watching him sucking air.

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So you are saying Zion is going to need a timeout every 2 minutes?

With 5:23 to play in the 4Q of a close game, Gentry replaces Zion with Frank Jackson. There is no reason for Jackson to play in a close game deep in the 4th. I would understand it more if he really wants Frank to play the 1, but Ball and Jrue were also on the floor with him. Frank plays 1 minute, the Spurs extend their lead to 7, then Gentry pulls him for Hart. It was head scratching.**

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Originally Posted by UNO Gracias

People say that Zion looked tired, gassed, sluggish, but he sure wasn’t playing like it. Even then you could have told him, “listen Zion, I know you’re tired, but we need you for 3 more minutes. We got a couple of timeouts that we can use to help you catch your breath, but we need you.” Problem solved.

If this came from above, and wasn’t Gentry’s call that’s one thing (Lebron got Griff his championship), but I would have expected more push back from Gentry. If you know you are going to get ******** canned at the end of the season, go out in a blaze of glory giving the people what they want rather than a lineup that hadn’t worked all game.

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Imagine Gentry keeps him in against doctors orders (and asides the fact Zion was clearly sucking in the big ones) and he re-injures the knee...

Everyone being critical of him now would be screaming for his head. Zion will win this franchise plenty more and plenty more important games...

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Originally Posted by carpo

Imagine Gentry keeps him in against doctors orders (and asides the fact Zion was clearly sucking in the big ones) and he re-injures the knee...

Everyone being critical of him now would be screaming for his head. Zion will win this franchise plenty more and plenty more important games...

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Imagine if Gentry kept him in and Zion kept on scoring points. Maybe they really we’re concerned the roof would come off the place. Going to stink if we fall 1 game short of the #8 seed in April.

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Originally Posted by 13 - 3

Imagine if Gentry kept him in and Zion kept on scoring points. Maybe they really we’re concerned the roof would come off the place. Going to stink if we fall 1 game short of the #8 seed in April.

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There are other games to blame... Like a good majority of the 6-22 games

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Originally Posted by GuardianAngel25

Amazing! People wanna blame Gentry immediately yet he was fighting to keep the kid in. Hard to enjoy this site anymore

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It does get hard sometimes , very much like Saints report

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Originally Posted by UNO Gracias

People say that Zion looked tired, gassed, sluggish, but he sure wasn’t playing like it. Even then you could have told him, “listen Zion, I know you’re tired, but we need you for 3 more minutes. We got a couple of timeouts that we can use to help you catch your breath, but we need you.” Problem solved.

If this came from above, and wasn’t Gentry’s call that’s one thing (Lebron got Griff his championship), but I would have expected more push back from Gentry. If you know you are going to get ******** canned at the end of the season, go out in a blaze of glory giving the people what they want rather than a lineup that hadn’t worked all game.

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Have you not read all the accounts that it was a Med staff call ?? Have you not read all the accounts that AG got into it with the med staff ? C'mon

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

Huge exaggeration. He was not that tired. You mention Forbes (a fast guard) blowing past him when he wasn't squared as the proof. I am sure he was starting to get winded just being his first game back, but he was not that bad at all.

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EVERYONE court side along with Joel and AD said he was GASSED

AG said before the game that Z would play in 4-5 min stretches , What if his mins restriction was not on total mins played but on how long he could play at a time ? Meli was going in for him just before Z got hot but was pulled back. AG probably pushed how long he could play in the 4th until the med staff said enough

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Originally Posted by djrnno

EVERYONE court side along with Joel and AD said he was GASSED

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He was a bit winded (for the first time in the game), not gassed.

Some of this stuff is unreal. It's not binary. It's not either or. It's not "you are ready to play 30 minutes or not at all." That's just crazy. There is a plan in place. They said repeatedly Zion would play for short bursts. They are easing him back into NBA game speed midseason. Of course he was tired. Of course he was gassed. Anyone who has played basketball on any level knows there is a huge difference between game speed and practice speed. Fatigue is a big contributor to injuries. Forget it. No way you play Zion deeper into the fourth quarter first game out. That's just idiotic and putting the short-term desire to win a game and watch him play over his longterm well being. I'm glad the organization doesn't think that way anymore.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

This tells me you don't have the slightest idea of what you're talking about. I posted a rather in depth article from people that study this in the team news thread. I suggest you go read it.

And I never said he's 100% and I'm not sure anybody did. But until he gets a few games under his belt, he won't be. Doesn't matter if it's this year or next. His first few games won't see him go past 20 minutes.

This is just common.

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WTF are you talking about. Weight is larger based on what you eat and the more you weight the more stress it puts on your skeleton and muscle. Like seriously where did I lose you?

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

He was a bit winded (for the first time in the game), not gassed.

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Agree somewhat. Yet Alvin makes the Brees comment at his press. Clearly Griff and Gentry have a different opinion.

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Originally Posted by 13 - 3

Yet Alvin makes the Brees comment at his press. Clearly Griff and Gentry have a different opinion.

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This is my ultimate problem. Where's the communication? I all but thought a mins restriction was a far gone conclusion. Then I read there is no mins restriction, then the game happens and it's clear he's on one. Then after the game it's clear the coach wasn't aware of said mins restriction. That's amateur hour type stuff.

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Originally Posted by 13 - 3

Yea let’s put fires Dr. Suri or whatever his name is in charge . How did that go for the Saints?

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Not arguing or debating with the med staff , am debating what UNO said

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

WTF are you talking about. Weight is larger based on what you eat and the more you weight the more stress it puts on your skeleton and muscle. Like seriously where did I lose you?

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Weight is based on numerous factors, not largely only diet. As a matter of fact, your specific metabolism, genetics, and age are probably is the largest factors. BI could have a constant diet of big macs right now and he's still not going to be 260 anytime soon. While another person can eat 2 big macs and blow up to 350.

And I'm not going to explain how people's specific body plan and especially their movement mechanics largely determines the amount of stress on their joints. Not their weight or mass. It's all in the article.

But believe what you will. I'm done.

I can’t blame him for that when I don’t know the ins and outs of Zion’s knee. He let Zion leave on a high note, and that is good at least.

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Originally Posted by 13 - 3

So you are saying Zion is going to need a timeout every 2 minutes?

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No, that's what you just said. You must've been awful at "Connect the Dots"! You seem to make stuff up in order to press on into your directionless tirades. It's quite fascinating.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

He was a bit winded (for the first time in the game), not gassed.

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He was gassed. He just about pulled his shorts to his ankles grabbing on the bottoms. GASSED!

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Originally Posted by Tinman

He was gassed. He just about pulled his shorts to his ankles grabbing on the bottoms. GASSED!

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I thought he looked like he needed to come out.

I hoped they would call the timeout and then bring him back for the last 2 minutes.

If you (not you Tinman) don't understand why they took him out when they did in his first game back after his injury, it might be a good idea to trust the experts. Such as the people that made to call to pull him.

You have to trust the medical staff. They want to win as much as anyone but they also want what's best for the player's long term health. ( It would be a stretch to say that before, but now we have Nelson, you have to trust that dude.)

I don't have a problem with it at all. Nobody should.

Don't worry, it won't be long before he does it again.

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Originally Posted by Tinman

He was gassed. He just about pulled his shorts to his ankles grabbing on the bottoms. GASSED!

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Very funny. :hihi:

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Originally Posted by P_B_&_G

I thought he looked like he needed to come out.

I hoped they would call the timeout and then bring him back for the last 2 minutes.

If you (not you Tinman) don't understand why they took him out when they did in his first game back after his injury, it might be a good idea to trust the experts. Such as the people that made to call to pull him.

You have to trust the medical staff. They want to win as much as anyone but they also want what's best for the player's long term health. ( It would be a stretch to say that before, but now we have Nelson, you have to trust that dude.)

I don't have a problem with it at all. Nobody should.

Don't worry, it won't be long before he does it again.

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You talking about those one legged landings? He was doing it all last night. So far no issues. I heard them discuss this on one of those ESPN shows. How do you remember to land right when you are in the heat of the moment?

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Originally Posted by 13 - 3

You talking about those one legged landings? He was doing it all last night. So far no issues. I heard them discuss this on one of those ESPN shows. How do you remember to land right when you are in the heat of the moment?

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It all about how he's moving and if they think he looks fatigued. It's also likely they decided before tip to limit him to about 4-5 minutes of run at a time. If they decide ahead of time to limit his minutes or if he starts to show that he is tired based on his posture, breath rate, and mechanics then you kind of have to roll with it if that's what they feel was best.

It sucks to lose that game. It sucks even more when it felt like he could have won the game for us. But at the end of the day you have to trust the training staff. I trust Nelson. The dude knows what he is doing and has been at it a very long time.

Edited to add: One legged landings are not bad. Its how he lands. When a player is fatigued their mechanics break down and there is a higher risk for injury. It was the right call at the time. If the are still doing this in a month I will be skeptical. But not right now.

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Originally Posted by 13 - 3

You talking about those one legged landings? He was doing it all last night. So far no issues. I heard them discuss this on one of those ESPN shows. How do you remember to land right when you are in the heat of the moment?

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Please understand that a one legged landing is not, itself, the worst thing in the world. Two legged landings are preferable, sure, but for various reasons human beings are often required to land on one leg, and it's perfectly possible to do it in a pretty safe and healthy way. Which, for the most part, Zion was doing.