Oladipo

I like Oladipo if he can play the 3. If he can't, then where do we put him?

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Originally Posted by AD23forMVP

Top 5 draft pick and Greivis Vasquez for Eric Bledsoe and picks?

I think some will scoff at that but I don't think they get how much better this team would be with Bledsoe at PG. Especially if Gordon returns to form, which Monty seems confident in.

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For this years? I don't think so. I would go out on a limb and say a top 10 pick next year might be a better pick than the fifth pick this year.

I think Burke is good and will be pretty good. Just doesnt seem a fit for us.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

I've seen Burke lock up on defense enough not to worry as much as others. The key will be to have him do so consistently. Same with Paul he was a suspect defender leaving Wake.

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That is true about Paul.

Does anyone really see Gordon as a long term opt here? I can't see that

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

That's his strength taking care of the ball. Don't know how you project him to be poor at it at the next level.

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Because he does things on a routine basis like leaving his feet a passer that he got away with in college but won't be able to get away with in the NBA. Little things.

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Originally Posted by Shelbywmccarty

Dipo had higher ortg than Burke too this year. Which is what we are ultimately looking at. Attachment 4861. Dipo

Attachment 4862burke

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Strictly because Burke had a higher usage which effected his efficiency. Oladipo's usage wasn't nearly as high because Burke had the ball in his hands alot more.

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Originally Posted by Shelbywmccarty

Does anyone really see Gordon as a long term opt here? I can't see that

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Only because of his health, which is a big concern. But if he's healthy, its hard to replace his ability to score off the dribble.

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Originally Posted by nolaslim213

I like Oladipo if he can play the 3. If he can't, then where do we put him?

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He's 6'4-6'5 right? Seems like he has the same frame of Jeremy Lamb who I pegged to be a SG in this league.

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Originally Posted by Shelbywmccarty

Does anyone really see Gordon as a long term opt here? I can't see that

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I do, but only because nobody will give us what we want for him.

I agree that Burke is better off right now. I just like dipo better as a whole player. Major defense

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Originally Posted by Shelbywmccarty

Does anyone really see Gordon as a long term opt here? I can't see that

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I really think he's going to force his way out after next year. I rather Oladipo and all his potential than having to deal with Gordon and all the things that could potentially blow up in our faces.

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Originally Posted by AD23forMVP

I do, but only because nobody will give us what we want for him.

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I'm in the middle when it comes to Gordon. Hate his injury concerns and attitude stuff, but also realize how valuable his scoring skills are to this franchise. Wouldn't give him away for cheap or salary dump.

I would much rather Porter or Burke because they fit a bigger need. I don't think we need another 2 guard as much as a starting PG and 3 that can score. The pelicans need scorers BAD. Also, with as much of a hissy fit Gordon had when Rivers will select just imagine if we were to draft another SG.

I think u draft bpa an dipo is better than both those imo

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Originally Posted by AD23forMVP

Because he does things on a routine basis like leaving his feet a passer that he got away with in college but won't be able to get away with in the NBA. Little things.

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He did that to pass to wide open players. Every jump pass I've seen him make was on point and more importantly decisive. Not sure why it'll be a problem at the next level. Burke has every type of pass in his repertoire.

Porters form bothers me(rivers) and I'm so so on our "need" for Burke. I would rather trade for Avery Bradley or Bledsoe or play another year with br and ar

Or trade down for Cj. I like him alot

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Originally Posted by Pelicans78

He's 6'4-6'5 right? Seems like he has the same frame of Jeremy Lamb who I pegged to be a SG in this league.

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Yeah, but he is a lot stronger than Lamb was, and he's more athletic. I think it would be a stretch for him to play SF, but I wouldn't be completely opposed to it. The league is getting smaller and smaller. We saw Chauncey Billups at SF a lot for LAC tonight - especially down the stretch when Bledsoe was on the floor (along with CP).

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Originally Posted by Pelicans78

I'm in the middle when it comes to Gordon. Hate his injury concerns and attitude stuff, but also realize how valuable his scoring skills are to this franchise. Wouldn't give him away for cheap or salary dump.

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Agreed. I also think people underestimate his ability to collapse the defense and create for others.

Do people realise that burke was rated the best defensive point guard in the NCAA??

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Originally Posted by DC-Hornet

I like Oladipo. If he can develop a consistent shot, he could be something special. He seems to be athletic, explosive to the basket and has a high basketball IQ. Porter doesn't seem to be athletic enough for the NBA. I would prefer McLemore or Oladipo.

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Thats where ur wrong, Porter is a very under rated athlete, georgetown didnt set him up to show it the way they run their scheme, but u can tell by his D how athletic he is, also he is 19 and has not even scratched the surface of his athletic potential. Not many people his size do that young, you have to grow into it.

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Originally Posted by Pantazis76

Do people realise that burke was rated the best defensive point guard in the NCAA??

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Are u joking? Smart blew him out of the water statistically. Burke D rating was like 103, Smart's was 83.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

He did that to pass to wide open players. Every jump pass I've seen him make was on point and more importantly decisive. Not sure why it'll be a problem at the next level. Burke has every type of pass in his repertoire.

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What happens when he does a jump pass and he his intended passer gets covered? He'll turn it over via a bad pass, travel or just force a bad shot.

He's done this quite a few times. NBA has faster and smarter athletes, better schemes. That won't do.

Now I am saying he won't change but it is what it is :)

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Originally Posted by nikkoewan

What happens when he does a jump pass and he his intended passer gets covered? He'll turn it over via a bad pass, travel or just force a bad shot.

He's done this quite a few times. NBA has faster and smarter athletes, better schemes. That won't do.

Now I am saying he won't change but it is what it is :)

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You're assuming too much and thats never a smart thing to do. Do you think he's just dumb enough to keep doing the same thing even though it doesn't work or, like any young player, will learn to adjust his game? Magic used to jump pass quite often and he's an HOF player. Burke studies the game and will adjust if something doesn't work. He's a true point guard.

Also, college stats are a poor indicator to try an project what a player might do in the NBA. The two games are quite different. Not like college football and NFL football.

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Originally Posted by nolaslim213

Yeah, but he is a lot stronger than Lamb was, and he's more athletic. I think it would be a stretch for him to play SF, but I wouldn't be completely opposed to it. The league is getting smaller and smaller. We saw Chauncey Billups at SF a lot for LAC tonight - especially down the stretch when Bledsoe was on the floor (along with CP).


Agreed. I also think people underestimate his ability to collapse the defense and create for others.

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This

Alot of teams play small ball now and he could do it for that.

I also think he creates better than people think. Just like people away Burke defense than scouting report.

I like Oladipo, but I'm not sure where he fits on this team if the team plans to keep Gordon long term.

I think people are vastly overrating Burke too. He's not Chris Paul. I think a better comparison is Mike Conley.

Otto Porter is the guy I want the most, but unless the Pelicans jump the Cavs in the lottery, or the Cavs move up to #1 and take Noel, then I think Porter goes to the Cavs.

So, assuming the Pelicans end up with the #5 or 6 pick, that's where the tough decision will need to be made. I still like Cody Zeller over just about anyone at that spot that the Pelicans can realistically get. People need to stop looking just at his flaws and look at what he can actually do. Teams looked at Joakim Noah's flaws too much before he was drafted, and he fell all the way to #9 while guys like Brandon Wright, who had off the charts potential, were drafted ahead of him.

And I'll be clear about this again... I'm fairly confident the team plans to put Davis at Center by his third, or worst case fourth, season in the NBA. Zeller would play PF next to him, not Center.

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Originally Posted by nikkoewan

What happens when he does a jump pass and he his intended passer gets covered? He'll turn it over via a bad pass, travel or just force a bad shot.

He's done this quite a few times. NBA has faster and smarter athletes, better schemes. That won't do.

Now I am saying he won't change but it is what it is :)

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And the NBA has much better spacing as well. I've seen Chris Paul, John Stockton, Steve Nash, Isaiah Thomas, etc all make a great deal of jump passes. If a guys wide open the type of pass becomes irrelevant. Whether you leave your feet to pass or pass the ball while standing once it leaves your hands your not getting it back.

You ask what happens if his intended target becomes covered. My question is how does a wide open player magically become covered. That's why the pass isn't risky at all because it's to a wide open guy. Jumping while passing only increase it chances of getting to the open man without getting deflected. If he's baited into throwing a bad pass that will happen whether he jumps or not, but if someone is close enough to bait him clearly that intended player wasn't wide open.

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Originally Posted by bradael

I like Oladipo, but I'm not sure where he fits on this team if the team plans to keep Gordon long term.

I think people are vastly overrating Burke too. He's not Chris Paul. I think a better comparison is Mike Conley.

Otto Porter is the guy I want the most, but unless the Pelicans jump the Cavs in the lottery, or the Cavs move up to #1 and take Noel, then I think Porter goes to the Cavs.

So, assuming the Pelicans end up with the #5 or 6 pick, that's where the tough decision will need to be made. I still like Cody Zeller over just about anyone at that spot that the Pelicans can realistically get. People need to stop looking just at his flaws and look at what he can actually do. Teams looked at Joakim Noah's flaws too much before he was drafted, and he fell all the way to #9 while guys like Brandon Wright, who had off the charts potential, were drafted ahead of him.

And I'll be clear about this again... I'm fairly confident the team plans to put Davis at Center by his third, or worst case fourth, season in the NBA. Zeller would play PF next to him, not Center.

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Trey Burke and Mike Conley have very few similarities other than being undersized PG's.

MC great on ball defender
TB average on ball defender

MC poor shooting off the dribble
TB great shooting off the dribble

MC average at changing gears
TB elite at changing gears

MC scores at only certain spots on the floor
TB scores for every where in the half court

I think they both have "sneaky" athletic ability, but neither really plays to their athletic abilities.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

You're assuming too much and thats never a smart thing to do. Do you think he's just dumb enough to keep doing the same thing even though it doesn't work or, like any young player, will learn to adjust his game? Magic used to jump pass quite often and he's an HOF player. Burke studies the game and will adjust if something doesn't work. He's a true point guard.

Also, college stats are a poor indicator to try an project what a player might do in the NBA. The two games are quite different. Not like college football and NFL football.

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You tell me to not assume things when I have not assumed anything. I was merely commenting on Da Throne's "jump pass" comment (i.e. a player -- in this particular instance, Trey Burke -- makes jump passes to make pin point passes). I commented on why jump passing is bad (first paragraph). I noticed Burke (and heard it also from a couple of people) jump passing a lot (first sentence, second paragraph) and why jump passing in the NBA is worse (second sentence, second paragraph).

And if your comment of me making "assumptions" is directed at him not changing this habit, I CLEARLY placed a comment about this (last sentence). It's a well accepted opinion.

And no, not ALL young players learn to adjust their games. I'm not saying Burke is like all young players (you might tell me I'm assuming too much again) and he MAY improve on it. But I was commenting on why doing jump passes are bad.

I can't comment on Magic -- different era, different players, different system.

But I do know that most players that do jump passes are told not to do that (or I read scouts, reports or even my from my previous coaches not to do that). Again, more athletic and smarter athletes, better schemes (I'm not assuming that athletes before were not fast and smart) plus a limited set of options.

To put it away as "he makes jump passes to make a pin point pass" is going away from the reason why jump passing is bad -- jump passes are bad because you're options are limited and decisions need to be quick (unless you can hang in the air longer).

I wanna see dipo in a dunk contest in the pro. He could easily win

http://youtu.be/qzBNsMe9Tqg

Check out what he does to mkg at 2:30.

http://youtu.be/LJ63CGBuzwE

I know it doesn't mean much. But he is a great dunker. But hey. So is aminu.

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Originally Posted by nikkoewan

You tell me to not assume things when I have not assumed anything. I was merely commenting on Da Throne's "jump pass" comment (i.e. a player -- in this particular instance, Trey Burke -- makes jump passes to make pin point passes). I commented on why jump passing is bad (first paragraph). I noticed Burke (and heard it also from a couple of people) jump passing a lot (first sentence, second paragraph) and why jump passing in the NBA is worse (second sentence, second paragraph).

And if you're comment of me making "assumptions" is directed at him not changing this habit, I CLEARLY placed a comment about this (last sentence). It's a well accepted opinion.

And no, not ALL young players learn to adjust their games. I'm not saying Burke is like all young players (you might tell me I'm assuming too much again) and he MAY improve on it. But I was commenting on why doing jump passes are bad.

I can't comment on Magic -- different era, different players, different system.

But I do know that most players that do jump passes are told not to do that (or I read scouts, reports or even my from my previous coaches not to do that). Again, more athletic and smarter athletes, better schemes (I'm not assuming that athletes before were not fast and smart) plus a limited set of options.

To put it away as "he makes jump passes to make a pin point pass" is going away from the reason why jump passing is bad -- jump passes are bad because you're options are limited and decisions need to be quick (unless you can hang in the air longer).

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The problem with this is you are saying he make jump passes to make pin point passes as if he doesn't make those passes when he's not jumping. He jumps because it makes the passes easier not more accurate and it's not a problem because he only does so when it's appropriate.

It's true that coaches teach a lot of things that are seemingly non fundamental in basketball that's done all the time by guys that have the skill and talent most people don't come close to possessing. That's why he's a top 10 pick and we are watching from our couches. Like it's been said I've seen all the top notch PG make a number of jump passes all through out their careers. I fail to see how this some how turn Burke into a turnover machine all of a sudden.

Here's a short video of Chris Paul at Wake Forest notice how many jump passes he throws.

http://youtu.be/1LDWf9ax3B4

edit:The more I watch CP3 at Wake Forest the more and more I like TB3!

More reasons I like him

http://youtu.be/k22hK2P-g94

He creates alot in this

Call me Crazy but I see some dwade in dipo.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

The problem with this is you are saying he make jump passes to make pin point passes as if he doesn't make those passes when he's not jumping. He jumps because it makes the passes easier not more accurate and it's not a problem because he only does so when it's appropriate.

It's true that coaches teach a lot of things that are seemingly non fundamental in basketball that's done all the time by guys that have the skill and talent most people don't come close to possessing. That's why he's a top 10 pick and we are watching from our couches. Like it's been said I've seen all the top notch PG make a number of jump passes all through out their careers. I fail to see how this some how turn Burke into a turnover machine all of a sudden.

Here's a short video of Chris Paul at Wake Forest notice how many jump passes he throws.

http://youtu.be/1LDWf9ax3B4

edit:The more I watch CP3 at Wake Forest the more and more I like TB3!

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Again, there are things that are bad habits that can work out but it's STILL a bad habit. And I NEVER said it will turn him into a turnover machine. Guys are putting things into my post. I was just saying it's a particular bad habit that is present in Burke more prominently than you'd like. Of course Paul, Nash and most PGs do jump passes. But the good PGs barely do it.

And AGAIN jumping to make the pass more accurate moves away from WHY a jump pass is bad. If for example a half second after you saw (or predicted) a player open, you jump pass it to make it more accurate and he's suddenly closed out -- suddenly, you only have fewer options and most of them are high risk (a lob pass to someone from the outside, an off-balanced shot, make the same pass you would have done only higher). And even if he's doing it appropriately, there were still be instances that the pass was bad (doesn't mean it was a turnover by him. Maybe he placed his teammate in a lose-lose situation). This is like condoning a player who takes a lot of early long 2 point jumpers because he's making them even if early, long 2 pt jumpers are bad shots.

And from your CP3 video, he only makes 5 passes -- only 1 of them was a jump pass. The other pass where he "jumped" was more of a skip (I think he could still land and it'll still be fine). Even if he did make 5 jump passes out of 5, I won't generalize a player from just a single video. I've watched enough of CP3 to see he doesn't make a lot of jump passes.

I'm NOT against drafting Burke. I have my reservations but I also see why everybody in here loves him. Just making it crystal clear. I have reservations with ALL of the draftees. All of them have bad habits that I did not like from watching 10 or so games from them this year.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

And the NBA has much better spacing as well. I've seen Chris Paul, John Stockton, Steve Nash, Isaiah Thomas, etc all make a great deal of jump passes. If a guys wide open the type of pass becomes irrelevant. Whether you leave your feet to pass or pass the ball while standing once it leaves your hands your not getting it back.

You ask what happens if his intended target becomes covered. My question is how does a wide open player magically become covered. That's why the pass isn't risky at all because it's to a wide open guy. Jumping while passing only increase it chances of getting to the open man without getting deflected. If he's baited into throwing a bad pass that will happen whether he jumps or not, but if someone is close enough to bait him clearly that intended player wasn't wide open.

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Because he was only open for a split second a defender recognizes he was open and cover him because the defender was smarter and quicker than college players?

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Originally Posted by Shelbywmccarty

Call me Crazy but I see some dwade in dipo.

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ur not the only one.

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Originally Posted by nikkoewan

Because he was only open for a split second a defender recognizes he was open and cover him because the defender was smarter and quicker than college players?

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This conflicts with my statement. If a defender can recover that quickly then the target isn't WIDE open.

The length and athleticism in the NBA is far greater than in college no denying that. However the ball moves much faster than any player that is a principal that hasn't change. If the defense collapses on Burke when he drives and a guy is wiiiiide open in the corner how is jumping to pass the ball any different than just passing it? Even in your example if a defender is baiting the passer his level of success disrupting the pass isn't increased because the passer jumps.

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Originally Posted by nikkoewan

Again, there are things that are bad habits that can work out but it's STILL a bad habit. And I NEVER said it will turn him into a turnover machine. Guys are putting things into my post. I was just saying it's a particular bad habit that is present in Burke more prominently than you'd like. Of course Paul, Nash and most PGs do jump passes. But the good PGs barely do it.

And AGAIN jumping to make the pass more accurate moves away from WHY a jump pass is bad. If for example a half second after you saw (or predicted) a player open, you jump pass it to make it more accurate and he's suddenly closed out -- suddenly, you only have fewer options and most of them are high risk (a lob pass to someone from the outside, an off-balanced shot, make the same pass you would have done only higher). And even if he's doing it appropriately, there were still be instances that the pass was bad (doesn't mean it was a turnover by him. Maybe he placed his teammate in a lose-lose situation). This is like condoning a player who takes a lot of early long 2 point jumpers because he's making them even if early, long 2 pt jumpers are bad shots.

And from your CP3 video, he only makes 5 passes -- only 1 of them was a jump pass. The other pass where he "jumped" was more of a skip (I think he could still land and it'll still be fine). Even if he did make 5 jump passes out of 5, I won't generalize a player from just a single video. I've watched enough of CP3 to see he doesn't make a lot of jump passes.

I'm NOT against drafting Burke. I have my reservations but I also see why everybody in here loves him. Just making it crystal clear. I have reservations with ALL of the draftees. All of them have bad habits that I did not like from watching 10 or so games from them this year.

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The whole point of this debate is somebody said they believe Burke will have a high turnover rate at the next level. One of his reasons was because Burke uses the jump pass.

The jump pass is bad because the ball handler commits himself to passing the ball. I get that. However there are many cases where the passer commits himself to a pass while still on the ground. Like I said once the ball leaves the passer's hands he no longer has control over the ball. If a guy is wide open*note the wide open part* and jumping to get him the ball increases the chance of the pass being successful. I have no problem with a player doing so.

Certain techniques aren't for every player. I don't want spot up shooters shooting fade aways. I don't want bigs and with no handles going coast to coast. However if a player has the skills to take advantage of a technique that increases the rate of success and can do so efficiently why not?

This is the equivalent of saying Nash should to be a high turnover PG because he uses the behind the back pass frequently.

This is the Oladipo thread not the Burke thread(there's more than enough of those). So I won't further derail the thread with TB3 talks. If you want to continue this we can do so in one of the threads with Burke as the topic.

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Originally Posted by AD23forMVP

Agreed.

I think Burke will be a fine player, but he will be a player you can pick apart advanced stats wise. Low efficiency, high turnover rating, poor defender.

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Horrible projection for Burke at the next level. IMO..at the next level he will not be asked to do so much and have to carry his team. The kid is the furthest thing from slow on the defensive side of the ball. Is he rose or Westbrook quick?? No but who is? He has already shown the ability to blow by defenders. He will be just fine.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

The whole point of this debate is somebody said they believe Burke will have a high turnover rate at the next level. One of his reasons was because Burke uses the jump pass.

The jump pass is bad because the ball handler commits himself to passing the ball. I get that. However there are many cases where the passer commits himself to a pass while still on the ground. Like I said once the ball leaves the passer's hands he no longer has control over the ball. If a guy is wide open*note the wide open part* and jumping to get him the ball increases the chance of the pass being successful. I have no problem with a player doing so.

Certain techniques aren't for every player. I don't want spot up shooters shooting fade aways. I don't want bigs and with no handles going coast to coast. However if a player has the skills to take advantage of a technique that increases the rate of success and can do so efficiently why not?

This is the equivalent of saying Nash should to be a high turnover PG because he uses the behind the back pass frequently.

This is the Oladipo thread not the Burke thread(there's more than enough of those). So I won't further derail the thread with TB3 talks. If you want to continue this we can do so in one of the threads with Burke as the topic.

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Who cares that he does the jump pass?? Not like it isn't something that can't be corrected and fixed at the next level. To say he would have a high turnover % at the next level cause of it is just false. Also, who cares about picking the kid apart advanced stats wise?? The kid is a winner and hell of a ball player. He is solid at the pg position with much room to grow. Very nice vision and a solid shot. Comes up big time in clutch moments. Bottom line is the kid is a winner. He will be a good nba pg with a shot at becoming a great one. IMO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWFZ_iNgRDY

I've been wanting Oladipo for a while. Oladipo's defense is first class, and he contributes efficiently on offense.

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Originally Posted by Shelbywmccarty

Call me Crazy but I see some dwade in dipo.

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He reminds me of Wade in a ton of ways also just a little taller and better defensive prospect.

Not sure if posted, but here is Mike Schmitz Scouting video of Oladipo, he did many of the scouting videos last year used on the forums. I love the defensive clip.

he's way too undersized to play the 3 and even the 2, and if we keep Gordon, there is no place for him.

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Originally Posted by Big-EZ

I've been wanting Oladipo for a while. Oladipo's defense is first class, and he contributes efficiently on offense.

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Elite efficiency. I think he is smart and rarely force things.

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Originally Posted by takezor

he's way too undersized to play the 3 and even the 2, and if we keep Gordon, there is no place for him.

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How is 6'4 -6'5 undersized for the 2? Many teams are going with small lineups in todays game, he would fit just fine.

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Originally Posted by takezor

he's way too undersized to play the 3 and even the 2, and if we keep Gordon, there is no place for him.

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You don't pass on great talent cause u have something that makes him not "fit" at that moment. He could come in a make Gordon and that awful contract expendable.

I can't see Gordon in our future plans. I just can't.

He is reported to have a 6'9 wingspan, which at a height of 6'5, would put him in the 6'7 range in terms of actual size. That isn't to mention his freakish athleticism, and he has a solid frame to boot. He'd be undersized, but in our system, we switch a lot and double in the post. I think it could work, with some growing pains, but it only matters if Monty thinks it could work. It would be a stretch...