Why not Brandon Knight?

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03-28-2017, 04:27 PM
Mythrol

Quote:

Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

As the Pelicans stand now, they can't make any trades because it's pass the trade deadline. What are we debating here?

The Pelicans can operate below the cap this summer and make uneven trades, therefor saying they have to match salaries is incorrect. They don't have to. They can operate below the cap and make a trade work while sending back something like QPon's contract.

There is nothing wrong with saying as it stands now the Pelicans would have to match salaries.

We can talk about all the random things that COULD happen but it's also fair to act like those things have not happened yet.

As it stands now there's higher odds of operating as an over the cap team instead of an under the cap one.

The real question is, if we clear all of that cap space to be able to make an uneven trade or sign a player, is Brandon Knight really the player we want eating up that cap space?

I would easily say there are better options.
03-28-2017, 04:37 PM
NMThreeMVP

Quote:

Originally Posted by PelsFan2313

If we're talking about acquiring him within the context of uneven trades, I can think of a lot of other players I would rather use the cap space on (granted we don't which players are and are not available). That's mostly a reflection of how negatively I feel about Knight as a player and as a fit.

On another note, Bledsoe has been my dream target for a while now. But I think people here are significantly underestimating his price tag at the moment, particuarly given his level of play this year. I think he can be had. But there's no way he's being had for a similar package as Knight, as a previous poster suggested. Knight has one of the most undesirable contracts in the league. Bledsoe, meanwhile, is on a great contract and is a much better player.

Bledsoe's contract is more per year than Knight, and his knees are worrisome. I wouldn't want to give up much to get him, but if he can be had for a 2nd I'd do it. Knight and Bledsoe both have good contracts provided they are healthy and playing PG in the right system. Knight has been played at SG by Phoenix, and he's not a SG.
03-28-2017, 04:58 PM
NMThreeMVP

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mythrol

There is nothing wrong with saying as it stands now the Pelicans would have to match salaries.

We can talk about all the random things that COULD happen but it's also fair to act like those things have not happened yet.

As it stands now there's higher odds of operating as an over the cap team instead of an under the cap one.

The real question is, if we clear all of that cap space to be able to make an uneven trade or sign a player, is Brandon Knight really the player we want eating up that cap space?

I would easily say there are better options.

There are always better options, but I don't know if those options are actually available to the Pelicans and at what cost. Knight is available at no cost, other than opportunity costs. I'd much rather Dragic, even at his age, than Brandon Knight. But is he worth a 1st round pick?

Is Bledsoe available for less that than a 1st? Is Rubio? Rubio would be an awesome playmaker but he'd kill us if we bring back everyone else because he's a terrible shooter. Collison might be available as a free agent, but Knight is a better player, IMO, when he's not being played out of position.

Like I said in another post, I'm not going to die on Brandon Knight Hill or take the last life boat off Brandon Knight Island, but I think the player he was before the Phoenix trade could be a great fit. He's been terrible in Phoenix, but his last year in Milwaukee was as good as Jrue's last year in Philly. His performance over the last 2 years has to be evaluated in the context of a tanking team, injuries, and playing out of position.
03-28-2017, 05:02 PM
NMThreeMVP

Quote:

Originally Posted by wnelson

the question is who does AD want....

And what does Jrue Holiday want? Does he want to be the lead guard, or is he content to play alongside another PG.
03-28-2017, 06:31 PM
Tim Floyd

George Hill, please and thank you
03-28-2017, 06:32 PM
hornetsrebirth

Quote:

Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

And what does Jrue Holiday want? Does he want to be the lead guard, or is he content to play alongside another PG.

If you play Jrue along with a PG and Hill, the question is where does our 3 pt shooting come from. A starting 5 with no 3 pt specialist is not a well designed unit.
03-28-2017, 07:37 PM
NMThreeMVP

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Floyd

George Hill, please and thank you

Will likely resign in Utah.
03-28-2017, 07:49 PM
NMThreeMVP

Quote:

Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

If you play Jrue along with a PG and Hill, the question is where does our 3 pt shooting come from. A starting 5 with no 3 pt specialist is not a well designed unit.

Jrue is technically an above average 3 point shooter, Cousins is also above average, Hill is shooting at league average for this year...

I think you need a PG that is also league average in order to make the offense work. With AD and Cousins ability to play facing from the perimeter, spacing shouldn't be an issue, especially if AD can reach league average from 3. It would be great to have a .400+ shooter on the roster, but maybe Moore and Grits could be that off the bench for you. Klay Thompsons and Kyle Korvers don't grow on trees, but if this offense gels there will be a lot of open 3 point attempts.
03-28-2017, 07:58 PM
N.O.Bronco

Quote:

Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

If you play Jrue along with a PG and Hill, the question is where does our 3 pt shooting come from. A starting 5 with no 3 pt specialist is not a well designed unit.

Im telling you all, Darren Collison.

He isn't some pie-in-the-sky player that will require all the winds blowing our way like Chris Paul, George Hill or Eric Bledsoe. He isn't a sexy pick up but he checks off every box we need and should come relatively cheap.

He is a player that synergy wise, makes so much sense.
03-28-2017, 08:39 PM
hornetsrebirth

Quote:

Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

Jrue is technically an above average 3 point shooter, Cousins is also above average, Hill is shooting at league average for this year...

I think you need a PG that is also league average in order to make the offense work. With AD and Cousins ability to play facing from the perimeter, spacing shouldn't be an issue, especially if AD can reach league average from 3. It would be great to have a .400+ shooter on the roster, but maybe Moore and Grits could be that off the bench for you. Klay Thompsons and Kyle Korvers don't grow on trees, but if this offense gels there will be a lot of open 3 point attempts.

Jrue is ranked 16th among point guards in 3 point percentage, if you consider him an SG he would be ranked 32nd. Only 30 teams in the NBA so either way you look at it he's not above average. Open three point shots are actually a weakness in Solomon Hill's game. Hopefully he will improve some, but still that won't be the strength of his game. I believe what the offense needs most is a knock down three point shooter. Everyone else on the floor knows how to handle the ball and pass, but there is nobody who makes a living on open threes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

Im telling you all, Darren Collison.

He isn't some pie-in-the-sky player that will require all the winds blowing our way like Chris Paul, George Hill or Eric Bledsoe. He isn't a sexy pick up but he checks off every box we need and should come relatively cheap.

He is a player that synergy wise, makes so much sense.

Collison does have a good 3 point percentage. I'm not opposed to Holiday playing on the floor with a PG for some of the game, although even in a combo guard role I think you'd expect to see him play PG half the time.
03-28-2017, 08:54 PM
NMThreeMVP

Quote:

Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

Jrue is ranked 16th among point guards in 3 point percentage, if you consider him an SG he would be ranked 32nd. Only 30 teams in the NBA so either way you look at it he's not above average. Open three point shots are actually a weakness in Solomon Hill's game. Hopefully he will improve some, but still that won't be the strength of his game. I believe what the offense needs most is a knock down three point shooter. Everyone else on the floor knows how to handle the ball and pass, but there is nobody who makes a living on open threes.
.

What's the value in ranking him by position, when the disagreement is about fit on the court? IF you're going to use positional average, Boogie is our elite 3 point shooter and provides us with the desired spacing. Don't switch the metric to prove the point. Year over year league average is about 35%, Jrue shoots 37% therefor he is above average.
03-28-2017, 08:56 PM
N.O.Bronco

Quote:

Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

Jrue is ranked 16th among point guards in 3 point percentage, if you consider him an SG he would be ranked 32nd. Only 30 teams in the NBA so either way you look at it he's not above average. Open three point shots are actually a weakness in Solomon Hill's game. Hopefully he will improve some, but still that won't be the strength of his game. I believe what the offense needs most is a knock down three point shooter. Everyone else on the floor knows how to handle the ball and pass, but there is nobody who makes a living on open threes.

Collison does have a good 3 point percentage. I'm not opposed to Holiday playing on the floor with a PG for some of the game, although even in a combo guard role I think you'd expect to see him play PG half the time.

I think that is part of what makes it work, both can share facilitating duties(though I would actually prefer Jrue getting the workload a bit more), with the added bonus that Jrue will have one of the best catch and shoot players in the league to kick it out too, instead of Solo and timid Frazier.

I used to really want to go after Korver, but I honestly don't think it is the right fit. Collison should be less sought after and checks off more boxes.

It just came to me last night, so I am trying to poke holes in my own theory, but so far, unless I start play the "what if" game where I wishfully think we can get someone through a trade or lucking into the third pick, all where the probabilities are low, Collison comes back as the best idea. To me at least....For the moment.
03-28-2017, 09:06 PM
hornetsrebirth

Quote:

Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

What's the value in ranking him by position, when the disagreement is about fit on the court? IF you're going to use positional average, Boogie is our elite 3 point shooter and provides us with the desired spacing. Don't switch the metric to prove the point. Year over year league average is about 35%, Jrue shoots 37% therefor he is above average.

Ranking by position is the only thing that makes sense. Back court players are supposed to have a higher percentage from the perimeter because that's their positioning on the floor. They don't post up under the basket. Jrue is a guard, you have to compare him to others at his position.
03-28-2017, 09:16 PM
N.O.Bronco

Quote:

Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

Ranking by position is the only thing that makes sense. Back court players are supposed to have a higher percentage from the perimeter because that's their positioning on the floor. They don't post up under the basket. Jrue is a guard, and if you want to rank his production from 3 point you have to compare him to others at his position.

I mean I guess, IDK. At the end of the day it is about maximizing this team we have.

If Jrue hits 35% as a SG or PG, it is still 35% right?....Though if his game overall takes a dive at either position that does matter, and that is what I am curious about. Though there is also no reason he can't be a primary facilitator at the SG position.

To me what matters is given our limitations(cap, trade assets, unlikely ability to keep draft pick) what options do we have that maximize the potential of our team and shore up weaknesses?

Thats the way I am looking at it. And I agree with your notion we need a knock down shooter since Jrue and Solo are not that.

Which is why I keep circling back to Collison. The third best catch and shoot player this season out of players that took 100 or more catch and shoot threes.

To me he is the most undervalued shooter on the market right now. Like Eric Gordon was after 14-15 when he hit 48% of his catch and shoot threes. And he should come relatively cheap.
03-28-2017, 10:03 PM
NMThreeMVP

Quote:

Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

I mean I guess, IDK. At the end of the day it is about maximizing this team we have.

If Jrue hits 35% as a SG or PG, it is still 35% right?....Though if his game overall takes a dive at either position that does matter, and that is what I am curious about. Though there is also no reason he can't be a primary facilitator at the SG position.

To me what matters is given our limitations(cap, trade assets, unlikely ability to keep draft pick) what options do we have that maximize the potential of our team and shore up weaknesses?

Thats the way I am looking at it. And I agree with your notion we need a knock down shooter since Jrue and Solo are not that.

Which is why I keep circling back to Collison. The third best catch and shoot player this season out of players that took 100 or more catch and shoot threes.

To me he is the most undervalued shooter on the market right now. Like Eric Gordon was after 14-15 when he hit 48% of his catch and shoot threes. And he should come relatively cheap.

Collison is probably an underrated 3 point shooter because he doesn't shoot very many 3s. As a shooter, I wonder why that is and what happens if he shoots 3 more a game.

My biggest problems with those pushing for Collison is that he's been a terrible defender and he isn't really a facilitator. Collison has always been a backup PG, IMO, not a starter. But maybe he has a good relationship with Jrue from their UCLA days, and with Boogie from their Kings days, and somehow this would come together and work.
03-28-2017, 10:33 PM
Mythrol

Quote:

Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

Ranking by position is the only thing that makes sense. Back court players are supposed to have a higher percentage from the perimeter because that's their positioning on the floor. They don't post up under the basket. Jrue is a guard, you have to compare him to others at his position.

What Jrue shoots in comparison to other guards is 100% IRRELEVANT. When we are discussing whether a person can stretch the court or not one thing matters. His %. Jrue is an above average league 3pt shooter.

Do you think a defender who is guarding Jrue is going to think, "Well actually he's only the 16th ranked PG for 3pt shooting or the 32nd SG so I don't have to close out and guard him." Heck no!

The only thing the other team cares about is if the guy can make the shot at an average to above average rate. Jrue demands that a defender close out on him. Period.

This is the exact definition of stretching the floor which is what is being discussed here.
03-28-2017, 10:36 PM
N.O.Bronco

Quote:

Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

Collison is probably an underrated 3 point shooter because he doesn't shoot very many 3s. As a shooter, I wonder why that is and what happens if he shoots 3 more a game.

My biggest problems with those pushing for Collison is that he's been a terrible defender and he isn't really a facilitator. Collison has always been a backup PG, IMO, not a starter. But maybe he has a good relationship with Jrue from their UCLA days, and with Boogie from their Kings days, and somehow this would come together and work.

Anyone we sign for the MLE or part of it is going to have drawbacks.

Maybe he doesn't scale up, that is certainly a concern, but its hard to see why he couldn't take 250 catch and shoot threes as opposed to 150 and still be successful here. Especially with AD and Cousins commanding so much attention. Assuming Gentry stays, he also has at least proven he gets guys open shots. Gentry that is.

Defensively he is average over his career with ups and downs, but some pretty notable ups in the places he has stopped. But that would be an improvement over Frazier.

Something i haven't mentioned, he was largely credited for really helping Cousins in Sac Town. This is from earlier in the season but still impressive:

Quote:

Collison's 64.0 percent mark highlights his ability to finish through and around contact and is a trend Kings fans can expect to continue. He shot 60.3 percent on shots within five feet of the basket last year, according to NBA.com's shot tracking data. Overall, Collison's 59.7 percent True Shooting Percentage leads the Kings and ranks 53rd in the league out of 359 players averaging 10 or more minutes per game.

Collison has also had a huge impact on the play of DeMarcus Cousins. Cousins averaged an impressive 25.5 points per game without Collison in the lineup, but that has jumped to a remarkable 30.6 points per game since Collison returned to the Kings. Collison has averaged more shot attempts per game than Lawson, which would presumably lead to fewer opportunities for Cousins; in actuality, however, the result is just the opposite —? the presence of a third scoring threat in the lineup has really opened the floor for Cousins to go to work.

The most impressive part of Collison's game so far, however, has been his effort on the defensive end. He is in the 94th percentile on defense, according to Synergy, and has held defenders to just 0.71 points per possession on the defensive end. Although that number is partially skewed by his unsustainably great 0.33 points per possession mark on opponents' spot-up looks, Collison has nonetheless been a huge factor on the defensive end for a Kings team that has struggled to contain opponents all season.
03-29-2017, 12:18 AM
hornetsrebirth

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mythrol

What Jrue shoots in comparison to other guards is 100% IRRELEVANT. When we are discussing whether a person can stretch the court or not one thing matters. His %. Jrue is an above average league 3pt shooter.

Do you think a defender who is guarding Jrue is going to think, "Well actually he's only the 16th ranked PG for 3pt shooting or the 32nd SG so I don't have to close out and guard him." Heck no!

The only thing the other team cares about is if the guy can make the shot at an average to above average rate. Jrue demands that a defender close out on him. Period.

This is the exact definition of stretching the floor which is what is being discussed here.

Do you not believe in math? Jrue is .372 from 3pt range good for 16th among PG, which is not bad and not great. Spot up perimeter shooting is not the specialty of Jrue's game. If you pair him with a PG who also doesn't specialize in range. Now you have a guard tandem which averages .372 from deep. If you pair him with an SG who averages 16th in 3 point shooting, that's a guy who is .400 from deep. Now your team has better 3 point shooting. If you believe that making a higher percentage of 3 point shots is a good thing.

When analyzing the strengths of a player he is typically compared to others that play his position. If you prefer to compare his perimeter shooting to centers to make yourself feel better, that's on you.
03-29-2017, 05:59 AM
Paul Overt

Darren Collison doesn't deserve be in this league, http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/ki...stic-violence/
03-29-2017, 08:09 AM
Mythrol

Quote:

Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

Do you not believe in math? Jrue is .372 from 3pt range good for 16th among PG, which is not bad and not great. Spot up perimeter shooting is not the specialty of Jrue's game. If you pair him with a PG who also doesn't specialize in range. Now you have a guard tandem which averages .372 from deep. If you pair him with an SG who averages 16th in 3 point shooting, that's a guy who is .400 from deep. Now your team has better 3 point shooting. If you believe that making a higher percentage of 3 point shots is a good thing.

When analyzing the strengths of a player he is typically compared to others that play his position. If you prefer to compare his perimeter shooting to centers to make yourself feel better, that's on you.

Irrelevant. All of it.

Will a defender have to close out on Jrue when he's taking a 3? Yes. That stretches the floor. Period.

This conversation has nothing to do with where Jrue ranks. We are discussing having players with AD and Cousins that will stretch the floor. Jrue stretches the floor. The fact your trying to argue that where Jrue ranks by position matters as to whether he can stretch the floor or not is silly. It doesn't matter at all.
03-29-2017, 09:54 AM
hornetsrebirth

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mythrol

Irrelevant. All of it.

Will a defender have to close out on Jrue when he's taking a 3? Yes. That stretches the floor. Period.

This conversation has nothing to do with where Jrue ranks. We are discussing having players with AD and Cousins that will stretch the floor. Jrue stretches the floor. The fact your trying to argue that where Jrue ranks by position matters as to whether he can stretch the floor or not is silly. It doesn't matter at all.

3 point accuracy is irrelevant and doesn't matter at all? That's some really advanced analysis you've got there! Somehow you've made .372 and .400 into equivalent numbers. That's some ground breaking stuff, you must be really ahead of your time.
03-29-2017, 10:35 AM
DaBrow

Quote:

Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

3 point accuracy is irrelevant and doesn't matter at all? That's some really advanced analysis you've got there! Somehow you've made .372 and .400 into equivalent numbers. That's some ground breaking stuff, you must be really ahead of your time.

Damian Lillard is behind Jrue in that list, and is shooting 36.9%.... Would you say that he doesnt space the floor? Is he not an above average shooter?
03-29-2017, 10:46 AM
hornetsrebirth

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaBrow

Damian Lillard is behind Jrue in that list, and is shooting 36.9%.... Would you say that he doesnt space the floor? Is he not an above average shooter?

Lillard is fine for spacing the floor because he is paired with McCollum, who is a SG averaging 42.6% from three point range. That's how guard tandems work. However if you moved Lillard to SG and then paired him with a PG who had the same 3pt percentage as him, that would not be as good of a fit offensively.

I'm really surprised people are struggling to grasp such a basic concept.
03-29-2017, 11:11 AM
Mythrol

Quote:

Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

3 point accuracy is irrelevant and doesn't matter at all? That's some really advanced analysis you've got there! Somehow you've made .372 and .400 into equivalent numbers. That's some ground breaking stuff, you must be really ahead of your time.

Stop acting so dumb. The conversation isn't about 3pt accuracy and where Jrue ranks with it. The conversation is about spacing the floor.

Is a defender going to close out any less hard on a 37.2% 3pt shooter than a 40% 3pt shooter? Of course not! Both shooters require a defender to guard them on the perimeter. They do the same thing for spacing the floor.

Do you want more efficient shooters? Of course. But the conversation is about how we space the floor with AD and Cousins. Two 37% 3pt shooters would space the floor the same amount as a 37% and a 40%.

The fact you either cannot comprehend this point or simply refuse to is quite frankly sad.
03-29-2017, 11:28 AM
PelsFan2313

This reminds me of when someone tried to make the argument that D-Mo was a good three-point shooter because he shoots better from long range than the average C (he's shooting a sizzling 27% from 3 this year). That was a silly argument. Just as this is a silly argument. You either can shoot or you can't. Positional analysis is irrelevant. Mythrol is correct. Jrue shoots 2% higher from three than the average player. That's more than sufficient to demand attention from the perimeter, which in turn, allows AD and Cousins to operate with more space.

Edit: LOL, I just realized this is the same poster that was making that argument too: http://www.pelicansreport.com/showth...07#post1401607 (Page 5 and 6)

Some people don't learn.

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