Trading Zion

Peter Griffin

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Originally Posted by Tinman

Man,I dont know. We could get DSJ, Knox, Ntilikina, Mitchell & Knicks #2 or #3 (Barrett or Morant) Although not a fan of Barrett + futures. Thats a nice haul. JRUE, ZION, DSJ, Barrett (or whoever REDDISH), KNOX, Ntilikina, Mitchell, Randle, Jah, Kenny Hustle & Frank.
Not a bad young team & JRUE !

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My concern with all those young players is that it's too many to develop. You also have to keep in mind in a trade like that, Jrue probably wants out so we'd get even more young players. I'm not saying I'd be mad if we did it.

I just think I like a core group of Jrue, Tatum, Smart, Zion, PLUS a future Memphis pick and whatever other first from Boston a bit better.

I'm not entirely sure about that.

For me, I think the number of young players at once that we could handle depends on their development. It's undeniable that, say, 5 total rookies would be too many. But would 2 rookies, 2 second year players, and a third year guy be too much? I don't think so.

Like Mythrol, I'm not saying I'd be mad if we got a whole heap of rookies and second year players and decided to completely re-start a team from basically 0. I'm just wondering how many relatively new players you can have developing effectively if there aren't at least a few vets to guide them.

Jrue is probably the best leader in the whole league. As Gentry stated in his presser, no other 6 foot 4 guy in the league is asked to guard the best 6 foot 8 guy on the other team and still get 30 and 8 on a nightly basis. Jrue does the most work in the league bar none. And does he ever show even a sign of frustration? Only because of the AD saga.

What a role model and true, true leader of men

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Originally Posted by AusPel

Jrue is probably the best leader in the whole league. As Gentry stated in his presser, no other 6 foot 4 guy in the league is asked to guard the best 6 foot 8 guy on the other team and still get 30 and 8 on a nightly basis. Jrue does the most work in the league bar none. And does he ever show even a sign of frustration? Only because of the AD saga.

What a role model and true, true leader of men

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Legit. When Jrue retires, I want #11 in the rafters.

#4 in games played for the Pels
#4 in minutes played for the Pels
#2 in assists
#3 in steals
#4 in points
#5 in win shares
#4 in BPM
#4 in VORP

Plus everything he's meant as the heart and soul of this team in so many ways. Absolute champion of a leader, brilliant personality. He's been a great guy, despite facing so much adversity in the face of injury and personal trouble, and he's given the team so many great games, so many great moments, and was part of that Portland sweep that I think I'll remember for a long, long time.

He might just be my favourite NBA guy of all time for the way he approaches his craft on both ends

I'm buying a Holiday Mardi Gras, and maybe a City Edition jersey as well, if I can ever find one.

That being said, Holiday has 2 years (w/ a players option he will likely decline for a 3rd) left on his contract. If we're going into rebuild mode, no player can be untradeable. You're going to get the most value in a Holiday trade now, if you're ever going to trade him. Whoever the new GM is should have a conversation with ownership and Jrue to lay out the plan for this franchise and ask him what he values now, and realistically assess whether the franchise will be in a position to provide him with what he values in 2 years. Whether that's winning titles or franchise player money, we have to be clear what the expectation is and our ability to meet it.

If he's not 100% bought in to the plan and finishing his career as a Pelican, we should consider trading him if we can sell high.

Just imagine Jrue's brain inside Andrew Wiggins' body

You have a top 10 all time guy right there

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Originally Posted by AusPel

Just imagine Jrue's brain inside Andrew Wiggins' body

You have a top 10 all time guy right there

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Jrue's brain

AD's body.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Jrue's brain

AD's body.

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Wait, that's just Tim Duncan.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Wait, that's just Tim Duncan.

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David Robinson?

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Originally Posted by pelicanchamp

If you win the lotto you keep Zion. Trade AD to Knicks for RJ Barret, Knox, Dennis Smith and 2021 1st 2023 1st


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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If I could get Tatum, Brown, Smart and 2-3 1st, I would take Boston's deal if I win the lotto and get Zion.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

If I could get Tatum, Brown, Smart and 2-3 1st, I would take Boston's deal if I win the lotto and get Zion.

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Even without winning the lotto, I think that's a solid enough deal. That's 3/5 of the team that made the eastern conference finals. Plus picks. Which may end up sucking to be honest...

Clippers pick: may never be seen. I think in order for us to see it, Clippers have to make playoffs this season or next season. Chances of that happening are less than 50/50 I'd guess.
Kings pick: likely to see that pick this year and it's either very back end of lottery or out of lottery completely.
Grizzlies pick: maybe this year, maybe next year. I find it hard to believe Grizzlies will be that bad two seasons in a row. And even if they are that bad two seasons in a row, that means in 2021, they may be ok and that pick isn't that high.

But at least the Grizzlies pick will have high value in terms of moving up in draft. Can combine two plus our pick and make a huge jump in draft.

As for Jrue, he'll never have a higher value than he does now. But pairing him with Brown and Tatum on the wings I think is pretty enticing in terms of competing immediately. Ultimately, I'd opt to trade him because a) he's at peak value b) i'm always going to be nervous about his past injuries c) he'll play two seasons and then bounce

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Originally Posted by Primetime

As for Jrue, he'll never have a higher value than he does now. But pairing him with Brown and Tatum on the wings I think is pretty enticing in terms of competing immediately. Ultimately, I'd opt to trade him because a) he's at peak value b) i'm always going to be nervous about his past injuries c) he'll play two seasons and then bounce

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Do you honestly think that, if we got Tatum, Brown, Zion, and another high draft pick this year (From packaging firsts together), Jrue would be guaranteed to leave?

We'll be talking about 23 year old Jayson Tatum, 24 year old Jaylen Brown, 21 year old Zion Williamson, plus another high value player. If Zion is even 80% of what he appears to be, that team combined with a 31 year old Jrue will be an easy playoff team, and very possibly a top 4 seed depending on how Tatum and Brown grow. I don't think Jrue walks from that.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Do you honestly think that, if we got Tatum, Brown, Zion, and another high draft pick this year (From packaging firsts together), Jrue would be guaranteed to leave?

We'll be talking about 23 year old Jayson Tatum, 24 year old Jaylen Brown, 21 year old Zion Williamson, plus another high value player. If Zion is even 80% of what he appears to be, that team combined with a 31 year old Jrue will be an easy playoff team, and very possibly a top 4 seed depending on how Tatum and Brown grow. I don't think Jrue walks from that.

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The question I'd have is what kind of player a 31 year old Jrue will be? And what does he cost? At that point we're paying Tatum and Brown as well on their 2nd contracts. Is Tatum/Brown/Zion and a 31 year old Jrue better than Tatum/Brown/Zion and the presumably younger assets and flexibility we'd get from trading Jrue?

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Do you honestly think that, if we got Tatum, Brown, Zion, and another high draft pick this year (From packaging firsts together), Jrue would be guaranteed to leave?

We'll be talking about 23 year old Jayson Tatum, 24 year old Jaylen Brown, 21 year old Zion Williamson, plus another high value player. If Zion is even 80% of what he appears to be, that team combined with a 31 year old Jrue will be an easy playoff team, and very possibly a top 4 seed depending on how Tatum and Brown grow. I don't think Jrue walks from that.

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I didn't make the statement under an assumption we also get Zion. If all that happens, he'll want to stay. But at that point, remember, we're talking about a 31 year old. We just can't give him a big deal. And our guards/wings would include Smart, Brown, Tatum. Zion's also likely to be a wing in NBA. We won't need Jrue. I love the guy, but I ain't paying him as a 31 year old.

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

The question I'd have is what kind of player a 31 year old Jrue will be? And what does he cost? At that point we're paying Tatum and Brown as well on their 2nd contracts. Is Tatum/Brown/Zion and a 31 year old Jrue better than Tatum/Brown/Zion and the presumably younger assets and flexibility we'd get from trading Jrue?

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That depends on how you think Tatum/Brown/Zion grow as players with/without an experienced, talented, two way influence to guide them. It's less of an impact on Tatum and Brown who have already grown a little bit with Al Horford who is a similar kind of presence, but I think the difference between Zion at 21 without that good influence who ensures defense is played, versus Zion at 21 with that good, guiding, defensive influence could be fairly significant. Zion is a talented enough player that I think he will work it out anyway, but without Jrue (or a similar player) I could see that taking him until he's 23 or 24, whereas having that guide could easily accelerate that growth.

As a side note, I actually think Jrue will be fine at 31. Injury concerns get mentioned, but he hasn't actually had a serious injury in years and years now. He's missed (if I recall correctly) one game due to illness in the last three seasons. That doesn't concern me much. If he was a player whose game revolved around athleticism and speed, I'd understand the reticence, but Jrue has always been a more cerebral, smooth, patient player than that. That kind of game ages well.

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Originally Posted by Primetime

I didn't make the statement under an assumption we also get Zion. If all that happens, he'll want to stay. But at that point, remember, we're talking about a 31 year old. We just can't give him a big deal. And our guards/wings would include Smart, Brown, Tatum. Zion's also likely to be a wing in NBA. We won't need Jrue. I love the guy, but I ain't paying him as a 31 year old.

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I don't think Jrue will want paying as a 31 year old.

WELL. For given definitions of paying.

He'll want money, sure, he won't take a minimum or anything, but it's important to note that by this point in his career, Jrue will have earned something like $180m total. The money will probably not be his primary concern. If we set up a team that can win, I could easily see Jrue taking the Duncan route of accepting less cash per year to allow the team to succeed around him.

Zion williamson at this very moment is the single most valuable chip in the entire league right now. Even in the last 2 weeks his hype and legend and buzz has grown.

Under no reasonable circumstances are we going to trade Zion if we get lucky and win the lottery. It's just too damn valuable.

It's not just how he may end up being really good by the middle of even his rookie deal that makes him so valuable. It's also the cap number of the rookie deal itself and how insanely marketable he is *right now*.......he's the player fans are most looking forward to seeing next year in the entire league. It goes beyond just wins and losses next year. He isn't being traded.

and no some package of another possible emerging star+ a #3 overall pick wouldnt do it if we got lucky and won the lottery....he's just too valuable from a marketing standpoint and bringing in someone like RJ Barrett + Knox just doesn't make up for that

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

That depends on how you think Tatum/Brown/Zion grow as players with/without an experienced, talented, two way influence to guide them. It's less of an impact on Tatum and Brown who have already grown a little bit with Al Horford who is a similar kind of presence, but I think the difference between Zion at 21 without that good influence who ensures defense is played, versus Zion at 21 with that good, guiding, defensive influence could be fairly significant. Zion is a talented enough player that I think he will work it out anyway, but without Jrue (or a similar player) I could see that taking him until he's 23 or 24, whereas having that guide could easily accelerate that growth.

As a side note, I actually think Jrue will be fine at 31. Injury concerns get mentioned, but he hasn't actually had a serious injury in years and years now. He's missed (if I recall correctly) one game due to illness in the last three seasons. That doesn't concern me much. If he was a player whose game revolved around athleticism and speed, I'd understand the reticence, but Jrue has always been a more cerebral, smooth, patient player than that. That kind of game ages well.

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Lateral quickness doesn't tend to age very well, and that's something Jrue relies on to be an elite defender. If Tatum is the player people think he is, having him and Brown - also a hard worker and leader type - would be sufficient. I think you get diminishing returns on Jrue's leadership if Brown and Tatum ascend and have more playoff experience than Jrue.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

I don't think Jrue will want paying as a 31 year old.

WELL. For given definitions of paying.

He'll want money, sure, he won't take a minimum or anything, but it's important to note that by this point in his career, Jrue will have earned something like $180m total. The money will probably not be his primary concern. If we set up a team that can win, I could easily see Jrue taking the Duncan route of accepting less cash per year to allow the team to succeed around him.

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Under those circumstances, I'd be happy to keep Jrue. But I don't think Jrue will take a penny less than his current deal, and for me that might be too much. I wouldn't actively shop Jrue this summer, but I would listen to any offer that came my way and if the right deal (picks and a prospect) came along, I might pull the trigger. It really just depends on what Jrue wants to do. Can't put yourself in a position where you are overpaying, and can't put yourself in a position where Jrue leaves for nothing or you trade him for less than dollar for dollar value.

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

Lateral quickness doesn't tend to age very well, and that's something Jrue relies on to be an elite defender. If Tatum is the player people think he is, having him and Brown - also a hard worker and leader type - would be sufficient. I think you get diminishing returns on Jrue's leadership if Brown and Tatum ascend and have more playoff experience than Jrue.



Under those circumstances, I'd be happy to keep Jrue. But I don't think Jrue will take a penny less than his current deal, and for me that might be too much. I wouldn't actively shop Jrue this summer, but I would listen to any offer that came my way and if the right deal (picks and a prospect) came along, I might pull the trigger. It really just depends on what Jrue wants to do. Can't put yourself in a position where you are overpaying, and can't put yourself in a position where Jrue leaves for nothing or you trade him for less than dollar for dollar value.

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If we get in a position where we rely on Jrue to be our primary defender in 3+ years, we have more problems than Jrue's declining athleticism. If we made the Tatum trade, I would expect Tatum to be our best wing defender in several seasons time. In that case, it doesn't matter if Jrue is only, say, 70% of his current self on defense because he'll only be assigned to defend the 2nd or 3rd best opposing offensive player. He won't be required to guard guys 5 inches taller than him anymore.

I can't see Jrue demanding $27m as a 31/32 year old. I agree that if he does, then we'd be in big trouble, but I could easily see him taking something like 4yrs/$45m at that age, if he believes in the direction of the team. And again, if he doesn't believe in the direction of the team at that point, then we have bigger problems.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

If we get in a position where we rely on Jrue to be our primary defender in 3+ years, we have more problems than Jrue's declining athleticism. If we made the Tatum trade, I would expect Tatum to be our best wing defender in several seasons time. In that case, it doesn't matter if Jrue is only, say, 70% of his current self on defense because he'll only be assigned to defend the 2nd or 3rd best opposing offensive player. He won't be required to guard guys 5 inches taller than him anymore.

I can't see Jrue demanding $27m as a 31/32 year old. I agree that if he does, then we'd be in big trouble, but I could easily see him taking something like 4yrs/$45m at that age, if he believes in the direction of the team. And again, if he doesn't believe in the direction of the team at that point, then we have bigger problems.

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If Jrue continues to play at a level that makes him worth keeping, as opposed to selling high, there is no way I see him leaving that much money on the table. He would have earned a contract at least on par with what Conley signed. I don’t think being 2 years older at free agency will translate into that big a discount.