NBA DRAFT 2020 DISCUSSION

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Okoro is gone by 13 imo.

Wouldn't draft Nesmith top 20. One of the few guys who I think is legitimately not arguable for a top 20 draft spot.

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I saddle my hitch on the bandwagon, but I agree on Nesmith being a reach. A safe reach, tho.

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Originally Posted by Funcrusher

And i should revise that. Not a salary dump per say, but maybe a guy that has value but on a bad contract. Like Pelican jokingly said Draymond earlier but I honestly would pull the trigger on him and the #2 pick for any collection of non Zion-BI-Jrue players. I know that's not realistic (Draymond's too good) but something in that vein.

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I was only half joking when I said Draymond lol

Salary is big and he obviously cannot score to save his life but he's still a very good defender (even if he's not at his peak anymore) and a very good passer who has a history of winning and (I cannot emphasise how much our team needs this) seems to actually care about winning basketball games.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

I was only half joking when I said Draymond lol

Salary is big and he obviously cannot score to save his life but he's still a very good defender (even if he's not at his peak anymore) and a very good passer who has a history of winning and (I cannot emphasise how much our team needs this) seems to actually care about winning basketball games.

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Seriously. Imagine an actual "culture guy" here, willing to teach the youngings how to play organized ball (on both ends). Really don't want to see Frank & Lonzo back next year playing 30 minutes jacking up shots like they're in a And-1 mixtape. Also why I again advocate for CP.

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Originally Posted by Funcrusher

Seriously. Imagine an actual "culture guy" here, willing to teach the youngings how to play organized ball (on both ends). Really don't want to see Frank & Lonzo back next year playing 30 minutes jacking up shots like they're in a And-1 mixtape. Also why I again advocate for CP.

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Yeah, I absolutely understand the arguments against someone like Draymond: he's clearly not as good now as he was a few years ago and there's still something like 4yrs/$100m left on his deal which is hard to swallow when you know that he's not going to give you much as a scorer or spacer. Then you have to question how effective his elite skills would be without all-time shooters like Curry and Klay around him. There are huge question marks, which is why I'm not actively pushing hard for him or anything.

But yeah this team needs a vocal leader who can really just heat everything up. The whole locker room bar maybe Redick runs cold right now.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Yeah, I absolutely understand the arguments against someone like Draymond: he's clearly not as good now as he was a few years ago and there's still something like 4yrs/$100m left on his deal which is hard to swallow when you know that he's not going to give you much as a scorer or spacer. Then you have to question how effective his elite skills would be without all-time shooters like Curry and Klay around him. There are huge question marks, which is why I'm not actively pushing hard for him or anything.

But yeah this team needs a vocal leader who can really just heat everything up. The whole locker room bar maybe Redick runs cold right now.

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Stiill remember his greatest performance of his career and then he just vanished. 2016 Vs. CLE Game 7.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Yeah, I absolutely understand the arguments against someone like Draymond: he's clearly not as good now as he was a few years ago and there's still something like 4yrs/$100m left on his deal which is hard to swallow when you know that he's not going to give you much as a scorer or spacer. Then you have to question how effective his elite skills would be without all-time shooters like Curry and Klay around him. There are huge question marks, which is why I'm not actively pushing hard for him or anything.

But yeah this team needs a vocal leader who can really just heat everything up. The whole locker room bar maybe Redick runs cold right now.

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Honestly I don't know how good it would be but a lineup featuring Zion and Dray at the 4 and the 5 would be for sure interesting, lol. Could definitely see synergy between them on defense, and maybe even offense if things click right. He could probably take over Lonzo's role on offense pretty well, tbh.

Might as well just draft Tillman who will give you that type of skillset versus getting a short term over the hill overpaid loud mouth that won’t be happy here.

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Originally Posted by Snarly

Might as well just draft Tillman who will give you that type of skillset versus getting a short term over the hill overpaid loud mouth that won’t be happy here.

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This is true but given that I have advocated for us taking either Tillman or Tillie at the end of the first or early second by packaging our seconds together to move up, multiple times, I feel like I'm allowed to speculate :hihi:

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Hayes is gonna go top 5 and he should. Very crafty, has improved a lot through the year, very very high quality pick and roll operator and ball handler, grown massively as a defender, he's a good prospect.

Precious Achiuwa is going to go top 20 but shouldn't. Very good athlete who occasionally has standout plays that show hints of what he maybe can do if he goes to the right development system (which don't tend to be teams that draft in the lottery, most of the time) but is a really poor decision maker and doesn't seem to know what he's doing at least 30% of the time. Very raw in a lot of vital ways.

Jalen Smith I like, but I think he's not great. He's a good defender and rebounder and obviously is a big body, but he's a slow vertical athlete (not much pop off the ground) largely because of a load up time. Pretty good lateral movement which helps him on defense but has very poor hips and turning stability which limits switchability despite that east-west mobility. High hips make lower body strength a concern for post defense. No good figures for his wingspan but rumours are that it's a little under average for centres, which combined with the lack of quick burst makes his rim protection at the next level a little questionable: he is often in the right spot though, tends to make good reads defensively. He's a pretty high IQ defender, gets into passing lanes pretty well, does the help pretty reliably. Problems come in PnR defense though where he he recovers pretty unreliably from drops, and he often just gives up lanes to drivers which is ugly. Gets lost on perimeter D fairly often as well, and he can be so slow at times that it's a problem. Can't defend ballscreens reliably.

Slow decision maker and not a particularly talented passer either out of the post or in the short roll. Really is a reactive passer as opposed to a proactive one, and I get the feeling he'll need set passes within an offense for him at the next level. Poor reads when trying to pass off the dribble, misses a lot of open looks around him; general passing feel is flat bad. If a defense is moving he has no idea how to read that.

Good hands and decent co-ordination, which help make up for the lack of top tier strength or leaping, and he's aggressive as an offensive rebounder as well which I definitely like; the question is if that's going to translate because of that lack of lower body strength and the fact that he wasn't an exceptional finisher in college (was good tho). Mediocre footwork.

Lots of promise as a shooter: release point is pretty low, which isn't optimal, but he has a nice stroke and it looks pretty natural. Saw somewhere that he shot 13/30 on NBA range threes this year, which is low volume but promising since that's about 43%. Has shown encouraging flashes of coming off screens and movement shooting, but they're rare. Still, worth noting.

Overall I think Jalen Smith is a probable NBA player and if he goes somewhere that can really pair him up properly on defense and cover for his flaws, he might even be a real good NBA player but there are enough holes in his game that I think other bigs do better (read: Tillman and Tillie) that mean that I wouldn't pick him as a top 20 pick, and if someone like Tillman was on the board still in the late first round then I'd let Smith drop.

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Thanks for the break down man.

One thing I'd like to hear from other people: what's your draft philosophy?

So when you're going in to evaluate a prospect, you've got a couple of games loaded up, what are you looking for? What's your checklist, or your bingo card that you're taking off, or your general guidelines?

Build complimentary pieces around Zion. I don’t care about the best talent. I want to use every resource to make sure we put together the very best roster for the kid. At the end of the day whether we succeed or fail, I want to say that we did everything in our power to give him the best possible chance to win as the guy.

If that means 4 spacers on the court, then so be it.

With 3 picks in the top 42 we should be able to get some decent pieces from this draft if we keep them. I think we can swing for the fences at 13 with someone like Poku and then possibly move up with those 3 2nd round picks to get a more safe pick late in the 1st. At least that’s what I hope cause I don’t see how we could keep 4 guys from this draft, but the ability to stash some guys late would be ideal like the Brazilian we got this past year. I still wish we would of swung for the fences by taking Bol Bol there though.

An elite 3 point shooter would be my top want for this team and it looks like Poku can shoot it from deep

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Originally Posted by DaPelFromHell

With 3 picks in the top 42 we should be able to get some decent pieces from this draft if we keep them. I think we can swing for the fences at 13 with someone like Poku and then possibly move up with those 3 2nd round picks to get a more safe pick late in the 1st. At least that’s what I hope cause I don’t see how we could keep 4 guys from this draft, but the ability to stash some guys late would be ideal like the Brazilian we got this past year. I still wish we would of swung for the fences by taking Bol Bol there though.

An elite 3 point shooter would be my top want for this team and it looks like Poku can shoot it from deep

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He really can't tho. He has a potential 3pt shoot, but his current form is mad overrated.

Poku is basically Bol Bol right?

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Originally Posted by AusPel

Poku is basically Bol Bol right?

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NO. Poku is a 7 footer, handle of point guard, very young, 19 in December. I have been on him as our pick forever, Hoping he falls to 13 and we can package our seconds to snag Tillie at 29-32 range

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Originally Posted by AusPel

Poku is basically Bol Bol right?

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Not quite as good shooting touch, but he has a better handle, much better passing feel, is more mobile laterally, has better team defense instincts, etc

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Originally Posted by Taker597

He really can't tho. He has a potential 3pt shoot, but his current form is mad overrated.

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What's exciting about Poku as a shooter is that he was actually a good shooter this year (at least by percentage), has improved basically every year, and also demonstrates surprising efficiency on pull-ups (can't remember the exact number but it's something like 37% I think?)

So while he isn't actually Lillard or anything right now, there's a lot of reason to buy the upside.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

One thing I'd like to hear from other people: what's your draft philosophy?

So when you're going in to evaluate a prospect, you've got a couple of games loaded up, what are you looking for? What's your checklist, or your bingo card that you're taking off, or your general guidelines?

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Might as well explain my own just while I'm bored and have nothing to do.

When I go into evaluating any player, I have 6 major criteria that I'm looking for, plus a sort of 7th bonus criteria. This applies to all players of all positions, and I don't consider body type or anything too heavily at this initial point. The 6 things I'm looking for are skills or attributes that I want the players to show: it doesn't have to be fully developed, although of course I appreciate if it is, but there has to be at least the indication that the skill might be there.

The Six Criteria (Plus a 7th bonus one)
1) Self creation off the dribble
2) Shooting
3) Passing/playmaking for others
4) Finishing at the basket
5) Team defense
6) One on one defense
Bonus number 7 that impacts all of those things: feel for the game

For me, in order to be someone that I would draft anywhere, even in the second round, you have to be able to display at least 2 of these traits. Just one isn't good enough. To be first round, I really want 3 of them. To be a top ten pick, 4, and to be an elite prospect, 5.

Now, it's also true that you can have these skills at different levels, and I do take that into account. For example, if you only have 4 skills but you have one of them at truly elite, world's greatest level, then you might well qualify as an elite prospect even if you're technically a skill short.

Take someone like Zion at Duke. He showed self creation off the dribble, the ability to pass and playmake for others, truly cosmically elite finishing at the rim, 1v1 defensive instincts, and had really good feel that showed up in team defense moments. He also showed signs of maybe being a better shooter than Duke truly demonstrated: that's 5 of the 7 criteria, with flashes of the other two (Shooting and team defense). That's why he's an elite prospect.

If you examine someone from this year's draft who is often considered to be going highly, like LaMelo, what you find is that he has truly elite passing/playmaking, and has shown signs that he might be able to self-create off the dribble (good handle) and be a decent team defender. There's also some people who hope he'll be a good shooter in time. On the other hand, he's a disgustingly awful 1v1 defender, can't finish at the rim whatsoever, and those team defensive instincts are only flashes: nothing sustained. So that's 3 or maybe 4 of the 7 attributes for LaMelo: that's arguably a top ten pick, because of how elite the passing skill is, and the fact that this is a weak draft, but he's not a truly elite prospect.

That's my general mindset. Then, I take a look at how I think the body type plays into things, height, athleticism, and speculate about certain skills translating to the NBA.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

The Six Criteria (Plus a 7th bonus one)
1) Self creation off the dribble
2) Shooting
3) Passing/playmaking for others
4) Finishing at the basket
5) Team defense
6) One on one defense
Bonus number 7 that impacts all of those things: feel for the game

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# 5 and # 6 are non-negotiable in my eyes. Everything (especially offense in this age of basketball) starts on the defensive end of the court. I also place a premium on locker room demeanor (fit). The last thing I'd want to do is introduce a cancer into my young, impressionable team.

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Originally Posted by As I See It

# 5 and # 6 are non-negotiable in my eyes. Everything (especially offense in this age of basketball) starts on the defensive end of the court. I also place a premium on locker room demeanor (fit). The last thing I'd want to do is introduce a cancer into my young, impressionable team.

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Nah, I think you can get away with not being, for example, a good 1v1 defender if you're elite enough in other areas. Steph Curry is a great example of this. All time shooter, self.creator off the dribble, good finisher, etc; sub par one on one defensive guard, but nobody would deny his overall impact.

And the reason I don't talk about stuff like locker room fit and mentality is that frankly, we don't get that information very often as fans. For GMs that's something to consider because they can talk to coaches and players, but we can't, so I try not to assume stuff.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Nah, I think you can get away with not being, for example, a good 1v1 defender if you're elite enough in other areas. Steph Curry is a great example of this. All time shooter, self.creator off the dribble, good finisher, etc; sub par one on one defensive guard, but nobody would deny his overall impact.

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Nah. if you are constantly taking the ball out of the net defensively, it doesn't matter what your offensive numbers look like. The Pelicans were 4th in points scored this year. How are we doing in the playoffs? Good defense trumps good offense every day of the week with few exceptions.

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Originally Posted by As I See It

Nah. if you are constantly taking the ball out of the net defensively, it doesn't matter what your offensive numbers look like. The Pelicans were 4th in points scored this year. How are we doing in the playoffs? Good defense trumps good offense every day of the week with few exceptions.

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Sure, but if you have a player who fits 4 or 5 of those criteria, the odds are that they're going to be valuable enough to offset any 1v1 defensive losses.

Curry was one example, Lillard is another. Doncic is another. Harden is another.

These are guys who are not super talented 1v1 defenders, but who are valuable enough as creators, shooters, etc, to make up for that. They are top ten players who cannot guard individually at a high level, especially across multiple positions. They take weaker or secondary assignments, and have teams the defend around them.

If you have a prospect who you think is going to be a talented shooter, playmaker, creator, etc, then as long as they're at least decent at team defense you can forgive deficiencies in their individual defense.

Similarly, if a player is an incredible playmaker and creator with huge defensive ability, you can forgive a lack of shooting to some extent despite the fact that the league needs spacing more than ever.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

These are guys who are not super talented 1v1 defenders, but who are valuable enough as creators, shooters, etc, to make up for that. They are top ten players who cannot guard individually at a high level, especially across multiple positions. They take weaker or secondary assignments, and have teams the defend around them.

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You assume there are players on this team who CAN play defense. Name ANYONE not named Jrue Holiday on this team who you can trust with a 'primary assignment'. I proffer that the second best defender on this team is Kenny 'Hustle', a player with a dubious future in a Pelican uni.

If three or four of your criteria is enough, Jah would be a starter on this team.

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Originally Posted by As I See It

You assume there are players on this team who CAN play defense. Name ANYONE not named Jrue Holiday on this team who you can trust with a 'primary assignment'. I proffer that the second best defender on this team is Kenny 'Hustle', a player with a dubious future in a Pelican uni.

If three or four of your criteria is enough, Jah would be a starter on this team.

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You don't draft for the team you have right now. That's absurd. You even say it yourself: Kenny Hustle's future is dubious here, and that's true for half the roster.

Moore, Frank, Favors, Jah, Kenrich, these are all names on this roster that could be gone in free agency this year. Then you have the possibility of trading other players like Lonzo or even Jrue or Redick. This team could look completely different in 12 or 18 months.

If you go into the draft trying to find fit for a team that needs completely restructuring anyway, you're going to make a mistake. It's important to remember that this team isn't going to be a contender next year, or maybe even the year after that: you're designing this team to win chips in 3+ years time. Don't make long term choices (that is, don't draft players who you will have some contractual control on for 7 years) based on short term fit.

Edit: I also want to note that Jah only has 2 of the traits I prioritise. He can create for himself off the dribble and he can finish at the basket. He's a poor defender both individually and as a team guy, he can't shoot, and he's a really poor passer.

The nucleus of this team going forward (if we can agree) is Zion, BI, JAX, Lonzo (maybe), Hart, NAW and Melli (maybe). Who amongst them is a shutdown defender capable of playing 'lockdown defense' on a 'primary' offensive weapon? Maybe DiDi is the guy, huh?

Of course it the makeup of the team is a consideration.

By the way, dae....

Just for "S & G's", how many of your six criteria does JAX check off?

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Originally Posted by As I See It

By the way, dae....

Just for "S & G's", how many of your six criteria does JAX check off?

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I see Hayes having the potential to have everything except shot creation off the dribble.

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Originally Posted by As I See It

By the way, dae....

Just for "S & G's", how many of your six criteria does JAX check off?

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Stuff he absolutely already has shown:
- Elite tier finishing at the rim
- 1v1 defense
- Good passing feel

Stuff I think he has potential for that he's already hinted at:
- Shooting (not elite, but good for a centre)
- Team defense

Don't see him as ever being an incredible off the dribble scorer. When I say shooting I mean relative to position, so I'm not picturing him ever being a 45% 3pt shooter on 10 a game or anything, I just mean 3 or 4 a game on 36% is within reality.

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Originally Posted by As I See It

The nucleus of this team going forward (if we can agree) is Zion, BI, JAX, Lonzo (maybe), Hart, NAW and Melli (maybe). Who amongst them is a shutdown defender capable of playing 'lockdown defense' on a 'primary' offensive weapon? Maybe DiDi is the guy, huh?

Of course it the makeup of the team is a consideration.

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We mostly agree. I don't see that Melli or NAW are part of the nucleus of the team (it's possibly but I think it's far from a given) and I don't think Lonzo has a place on this team long term at all.

So we're left with Zion, BI, Jax, Hart.

I think Zion has the potential to be a good team defender and very good 1v1 defender. He showed that at Duke, and he never really got a normal rookie season this year to improve on D, especially after the injury. I could always be wrong and maybe his Duke D will never translate to the NBA, but I think it's too early to count it out.

BI is a good shooter, can create his shot off the dribble, is an okay passer and a very good finisher. Bad defender, this is true.

Hart is a pretty good defender, very good finisher especially in transition, and an okay shooter: mediocre at everything else, we all know he's a roleplayer.

Jax's issues, I've described as above.

I don't think Didi is secretly the guy that some people think he is. I've seen a lot of people acting like he's gonna come over from Aus and light the world on fire, mostly from people who I don't think actually watched him in Aus this year very much. In a perfect world I probably leave him over there for another year: his shooting was nothing like what we hoped and while he was solid defensively, he wasn't incredible or anything.

So the question isn't ''can we field a championship team next year with these guys'', it's ''can you build a strong defense around these guys over the next 3 years or so?'', and I think the answer to that is yes.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Stuff he absolutely already has shown:
- Elite tier finishing at the rim
- 1v1 defense
- Good passing feel

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Like they say, "everyone has one."

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Originally Posted by As I See It

Like they say, "everyone has one."

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He's shown good passing feel, multiple times, including off the dribble surprisingly. And his 1v1 defense, especially in the paint, has largely been fine. His issue has always been whenever he has to think about more than one thing at a time.

Yes he's foul prone but so is damn near every good big man as a young player. Go look up Shaq's rookie foul rate and be prepared to cry when you see he averaged fouling out per 100.

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Originally Posted by As I See It

The nucleus of this team going forward (if we can agree) is Zion, BI, JAX, Lonzo (maybe), Hart, NAW and Melli (maybe). Who amongst them is a shutdown defender capable of playing 'lockdown defense' on a 'primary' offensive weapon? Maybe DiDi is the guy, huh?

Of course it the makeup of the team is a consideration.

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Umm... Zion? Pretty obvious to me. Maybe Lonzo if he bounces back from last year, though man defense isn't even the main problem with him. Hell, even Hart is ok and I think as long as he doesn't guard forwards or super quick guards Ingram can become solid in that department too. And then you talk about JAX, who has the potential to anchor a defense one day, which is much more important than individual defense. This narrative that no one on our team has the tools to be a great-to-good defender is patently false, and reactionary no less.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

We mostly agree. I don't see that Melli or NAW are part of the nucleus of the team (it's possibly but I think it's far from a given) and I don't think Lonzo has a place on this team long term at all.

So we're left with Zion, BI, Jax, Hart.

I think Zion has the potential to be a good team defender and very good 1v1 defender. He showed that at Duke, and he never really got a normal rookie season this year to improve on D, especially after the injury. I could always be wrong and maybe his Duke D will never translate to the NBA, but I think it's too early to count it out.

BI is a good shooter, can create his shot off the dribble, is an okay passer and a very good finisher. Bad defender, this is true.

Hart is a pretty good defender, very good finisher especially in transition, and an okay shooter: mediocre at everything else, we all know he's a roleplayer.

Jax's issues, I've described as above.

I don't think Didi is secretly the guy that some people think he is. I've seen a lot of people acting like he's gonna come over from Aus and light the world on fire, mostly from people who I don't think actually watched him in Aus this year very much. In a perfect world I probably leave him over there for another year: his shooting was nothing like what we hoped and while he was solid defensively, he wasn't incredible or anything.

So the question isn't ''can we field a championship team next year with these guys'', it's ''can you build a strong defense around these guys over the next 3 years or so?'', and I think the answer to that is yes.

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We mostly agree. So as I said, there is no one on this team capable of being a shutdown defender (if Zion is a maybe).

I totally agree with you about DiDi (he may never wear a Pelican uniform). (NOTE: I would be delighted to be wrong.)

And points 5 and 6 in your profiling tool is a must if we are building around the guys we've mentioned.

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Originally Posted by As I See It

We mostly agree. So as I said, there is no one on this team capable of being a shutdown defender (if Zion is a maybe).

I totally agree with you about DiDi (he may never wear a Pelican uniform). (NOTE: I would be delighted to be wrong.)

And points 5 and 6 in your profiling tool is a must if we are building around the guys we've mentioned.

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My thought process is that you can always afford to have 2 defensive liabilities on the court at once (as long as they provide other value) as long as the other 3 are legitimately good defenders. An example of this, this year, would be the Heat being able to put together the 11th best defense despite starting Duncan Robinson and Kendrick Nunn for most of the year, both of whom are really poor defenders: Butler, Adebayo, and Leonard are all good or great defenders, so it works out.

We have Zion, who I think can be potentially a good-to-great defender. We have Hart, who is a good defender. We have Jax, who I think is/will be a good defender.

Then we have Ingram who is a poor defender. That's 4 players: realistically, you have 10 players in your normal rotation at any point. That means we can afford to have another poor defender or two on the team and in the rotation (again, as long as they are providing positive value elsewhere) as long as there are always defenders on the court with them.

That's why I don't care too much if we draft someone who is a mediocre 1v1 defender this year at #13: we can probably get Tillie or Tillman later in the draft, and they're both very good defenders, and then we still have Jrue for now as well. Then, going forward into next years draft and next year's free agency, we can make sure we maintain that balance of defensive to offensive talent.

Obviously in a perfect world everyone on your roster would be a great 2 way player but that's just not realistic.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Obviously in a perfect world everyone on your roster would be a great 2 way player but that's just not realistic.

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The Pelicans were literally a bi-polar team this year....

They were the fourth best offense.....and the fourth worse defense (even with the great Jrue Holiday). We leaked like a sieve. Defense has got to be a priority now if there is any hope of bright future in Smoothie King (especially if the team moves Holiday).

BTW: I certainly don't see any Curry's, Harden's, or Luka's in this draft so the elite offensive player in the 2020 Draft is a myth.

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Originally Posted by As I See It

The Pelicans were literally a bi-polar team this year....

They were the fourth best offense.....and the fourth worse defense (even with the great Jrue Holiday). We leaked like a sieve. Defense has got to be a priority now if there is any hope of bright future in Smoothie King (especially if the team moves Holiday).

BTW: I certainly don't see any Curry's, Harden's, or Luka's in this draft so the elite offensive player in the 2020 Draft is a myth.

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My point isn't that there's secretly Luka sat there in this draft. They are extreme examples to demonstrate the point, which is that if you are good enough at other things, you can be a productive NBA player even if you are not great at 1v1 defense. There are obviously role-player examples of this as well (JJ Redick, Kyle Korver, Lou Williams, Tony Parker for most of his career, etc etc) but I wanted to give clear, unarguable examples. Otherwise I'd mention Kyle Korver and risk the ''ah but is he even that valuable'' argument, which I was trying to avoid for the sake of a clear example.

We did leak like a sieve, but that's not because of any one player, and I will repeat, constructing the team long term around what sounds convenient for the short term is a mistake. When you draft a player, you essentially have them in your control for 7 years, assuming you do the extension at the end of the rookie scale. So when you are drafting a player, you are making a potentially long term decision. If you draft a player specifically so that they fit with E'twaun Moore and Jahlil Okafor, and then both of those players are gone before they hit their second season, then you've messed up.

Draft the player you think is going to be the best, and if you're considering fit, do so with only your franchise type players in mind. I don't care if we draft someone who is a bad defensive combo with JJ Redick, because JJ Redick won't be here when we're competing for championships because there's only one year left on his deal and he's 37.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

My point isn't that there's secretly Luka sat there in this draft. They are extreme examples to demonstrate the point, which is that if you are good enough at other things, you can be a productive NBA player even if you are not great at 1v1 defense. There are obviously role-player examples of this as well (JJ Redick, Kyle Korver, Lou Williams, Tony Parker for most of his career, etc etc) but I wanted to give clear, unarguable examples. Otherwise I'd mention Kyle Korver and risk the ''ah but is he even that valuable'' argument, which I was trying to avoid for the sake of a clear example.

We did leak like a sieve, but that's not because of any one player, and I will repeat, constructing the team long term around what sounds convenient for the short term is a mistake. When you draft a player, you essentially have them in your control for 7 years, assuming you do the extension at the end of the rookie scale. So when you are drafting a player, you are making a potentially long term decision. If you draft a player specifically so that they fit with E'twaun Moore and Jahlil Okafor, and then both of those players are gone before they hit their second season, then you've messed up.

Draft the player you think is going to be the best, and if you're considering fit, do so with only your franchise type players in mind. I don't care if we draft someone who is a bad defensive combo with JJ Redick, because JJ Redick won't be here when we're competing for championships because there's only one year left on his deal and he's 37.

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You are drifting away from our conversation. I haven't once said that either Moore, JJ, or Jah were part of the nucleus. But, since the players we do have control of for the foreseeable future lack an acuity for playing defense (Zion ???) ....somebody better.

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Originally Posted by As I See It

You are drifting away from our conversation. I haven't once said that either Moore, JJ, or Jah were part of the nucleus. But, since the players we do have control of for the foreseeable future lack an acuity for playing defense (Zion ???) ....somebody better.

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Somebody better. But you don't have to necessarily draft that person right now. There are multiple drafts, in which we have multiple picks, and multiple free agencies between now and when we're going to be competing.

So we can agree on 4 key guys for the future: Zion, Ingram, Jax, and Hart. We can also agree that 3 of those 4 are, or at least have the potential to be, solid defenders.

So when we go into this draft, we do so with the intent of drafting the player who we think will be the best. If that happesn to be a player who is defensively minded, then that's cool and great, but if they aren't then it doesn't really matter because we have a long time and a lot of resources with which to tailor the roster.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Somebody better. But you don't have to necessarily draft that person right now. There are multiple drafts, in which we have multiple picks, and multiple free agencies between now and when we're going to be competing.

So we can agree on 4 key guys for the future: Zion, Ingram, Jax, and Hart. We can also agree that 3 of those 4 are, or at least have the potential to be, solid defenders.

So when we go into this draft, we do so with the intent of drafting the player who we think will be the best. If that happesn to be a player who is defensively minded, then that's cool and great, but if they aren't then it doesn't really matter because we have a long time and a lot of resources with which to tailor the roster.

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'Potential' and a 26th rank defense = Lottery Pick in the ensuing draft.

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Originally Posted by As I See It

'Potential' and a 26th rank defense = Lottery Pick in the ensuing draft.

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Please for the love of god give me a good lottery pick in the 2021 draft :hihi: Cade, BJ Boston, Scottie Barnes, please!

But this is my entire point. You're going ''adding potential to THIS defense, gives you a lottery pick NEXT year''.

We won't have this defense cause half this team won't be here, and I don't care about next year. My priority is accumulating the talent under cost controlled contracts so that we can compete for championships in 3, 4 years from now.

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Originally Posted by As I See It

The nucleus of this team going forward (if we can agree) is Zion, BI, JAX, Lonzo (maybe), Hart, NAW and Melli (maybe). Who amongst them is a shutdown defender capable of playing 'lockdown defense' on a 'primary' offensive weapon? Maybe DiDi is the guy, huh?

Of course it the makeup of the team is a consideration.

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In the era of 1,000 screens per possession, having a lockdown defender doesn't mean much of anything. You need multiple "good" defenders, or a TEAM that understands how and when to switch and bigs with good lateral movement.

So you obviously need players with physicality to fight through/around screens, and for dear god once you force a bad shot, have to ability to go get the rebound.

Half of that equation, with a young team, only comes with time and experience.

I do believe they will target a big capable of that Dennis Rodman/Bill Winnington very unsexy dirty work. Pick won't be popular among fans, especially if the guy can't shoot 3s, but on this team it is very much needed.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

In the era of 1,000 screens per possession, having a lockdown defender doesn't mean much of anything. You need multiple "good" defenders, or a TEAM that understands how and when to switch and bigs with good lateral movement.

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Team defense > 1v1 defense.

Hopefully this will be another place where we agree :hihi:

I think Lonzo being a part of this team moving forward will depend 100% on the coach we hire.

Some coaches will not put up with a guard shooting 40% Free Throws, and launching asinine step back 3's out of nowhere.

Consistency is what most coaches are looking for, and Lonzo has none of it.

Unless Jax develops an outside shot, he's not the right 5 next to Zion

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Originally Posted by AusPel

Unless Jax develops an outside shot, he's not the right 5 next to Zion

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Don’t agree. A strong finisher is still a good piece to have next to Zion. Zion will be able to bait defenses with his gravity leaving Hayes wide open on the baseline or backside. Griffin and Jordan did this for years. While it would be nice for Hayes to develop an outside shot, it’s not necessary for the two to exist... especially if you expect Zion to develop a perimeter game like Giannis. With Zion’s Versatility to play on both the perimeter and in the post over time, it’s likely the Pelicans will need a dominant shot blocker with good hands and a strong aggressive finisher and a stretch big to Round out the rotation.

Can you imagine the pick and roll game with Zion/Hayes once Zion develops into a primary ball handler?

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Originally Posted by Snarly

Don’t agree. A strong finisher is still a good piece to have next to Zion. Zion will be able to bait defenses with his gravity leaving Hayes wide open on the baseline or backside. Griffin and Jordan did this for years. While it would be nice for Hayes to develop an outside shot, it’s not necessary for the two to exist... especially if you expect Zion to develop a perimeter game like Giannis. With Zion’s Versatility to play on both the perimeter and in the post over time, it’s likely the Pelicans will need a dominant shot blocker with good hands and a strong aggressive finisher and a stretch big to Round out the rotation.

Can you imagine the pick and roll game with Zion/Hayes once Zion develops into a primary ball handler?

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Pretty much completely agree with this.

I do hope Jax will develop a shot, and I think he has the potential to do so. If he doesn't, it is true that we will need another big who can shoot to provide that variation in looks and lineups, as well as options for offense. It's not impossible, for example, if Zion develops as we believe he will, to run Zion at the 3 and put a shooting big at the 4 and then a more traditional big like Jax at the 5, depending on who the other two guys are.

It's been a minute since I updated this. I didn't have per 100 stats for Poku so I assumed Greek A2 is 75 possessions per 40 minutes. If anyone has a better estimate, let me know! https://t.co/Ui50OUl2vm pic.twitter.com/GsxXKvnfAF

— You know it, I know it, we all know it’s Wiseman (@thecity2) August 21, 2020

Just so you know, these stats are basically accurate: the Greek league is about 75 possessions per 40 (it's 75.9, apparently, so barely off).

The X axis is stocks (steals+blocks) and the Y axis is FT%+ASTs. It's not a perfect metric, but it's just a rough look at the statistical defensive production of a big combined with the strongest signifiers of touch and playmaking (ft% being better for projecting shooting than just raw 3pt percentage a lot of the time, and assists obviously being the best simple number for passing skill).

Pokusevski is in rare air. He's just below Brandon Clarke, Embiid, Jaren Jackson Jr, and Zion in the stocks (Anthony Davis waaaay off in front in stocks) but is by far the best showing here in the FT%+AST category. Nobody really comes close to him: second place goes to Draymond Green. It's kind of bonkers how ahead he is in that stat.

Now, it does have to be noted that he's playing against worst competition than these guys were, but come on. When someone plays against bad competition, if they're good, you expect them to dominate, and he's dominated. This is exactly what you would want to see from him.

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Originally Posted by Snarly

Don’t agree. A strong finisher is still a good piece to have next to Zion. Zion will be able to bait defenses with his gravity leaving Hayes wide open on the baseline or backside. Griffin and Jordan did this for years. While it would be nice for Hayes to develop an outside shot, it’s not necessary for the two to exist... especially if you expect Zion to develop a perimeter game like Giannis. With Zion’s Versatility to play on both the perimeter and in the post over time, it’s likely the Pelicans will need a dominant shot blocker with good hands and a strong aggressive finisher and a stretch big to Round out the rotation.

Can you imagine the pick and roll game with Zion/Hayes once Zion develops into a primary ball handler?

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Right now, neither of those two player play adequate NBA Defense. So they can't co-exist anytime soon....if ever.

https://twitter.com/TheNBACentral/st...359922695?s=20