Game Thread: Hornets @ Spurs {Final Score-SA 106... Hornets 102}

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Originally Posted by Eman5805

I wonder if Cleveland is dumb enough to trade Kyrie Irving for Gordon, Aminu, Lopez, and Vasquez. :huh2:

Cuz if not I got this big cartoon mallet...

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:hihi: no way....that kid is the truth

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Originally Posted by Nola Hornet

You're changing your stance now. First you said Great players are going to take you over the top regardless of the lockroom. Sacramento has been losing for about 6 years now. If that's not losing culture, I don't know what is.

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Not changing my stance. The point is the most important component to winning is talent. If you replace Sac. players with OKC players does it matter what that team culture is?

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Originally Posted by AD23forMVP

Someone I haven't really heard anyone talk about, our offense fell apart when Greivis decided to drive and score rather than drive and dish.

In the first half Greivis was 2-3 for 5 points, 10 assist, and 1 turnover.

In the second half Greivis was 4-10 for 10 points, 1 assist, and 2 turnovers.

Call it hero ball if you want, but Greivis needs to look for others, not himself.

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Thats the thing tho....GV is going to play hero ball. He's been doing that ever since he was at Maryland. They won a lot of games that way especially close ones where he's been the closer. This is where he needs to learn that in the pros...the last 5-7 min of the game....unless told otherwise...he needs to give the ball to Gordon.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

Not changing my stance. The point is the most important component to winning is talent. If you replace Sac. players with OKC players does it matter what that team culture is?

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Replace Sacs Front Office with OKC front office, coaches, and assistants, I guarantee you they would be competing.

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Originally Posted by Nola Hornet

Timberwolves has plenty of talent but winning just ain't for them right?

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Not sure what you consider talent, but Minnesota really isn't that talented and guys like Love and Rubio had injury issues this year.

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Originally Posted by Miss_318

Thats the thing tho....GV is going to play hero ball. He's been doing that ever since he was at Maryland. They won a lot of games that way especially close ones where he's been the closer. This is where he needs to learn that in the pros...the last 5-7 min of the game....unless told otherwise...he needs to give the ball to Gordon. I

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This by far

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Originally Posted by BuzzmanD

We are young and will lose games but it does not take a basketball genius to figure out the head coach is making so very questionable decisions and it is glaring when it comes to the 4th quarter which is where 90% of NBA games are decided. Tonight the Spurs were without Timmy and Leonard not to mention their head coach who is probably one of the best of all time yet we are out coached. I believe we had enough talent to win tonight but when you see retarded decisions like putting X in the game in the 4th quarter with the game nearly tied you got to wonder what the hell is going on in Monty's brain? When you have GV guarding Parker while our best defender is off on the base line watching Parker take over the game single handily you have to look at your Head coach and question if he knows what he is doing. Can you imagine this type of coaching if this was a playoff game?

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Actually this type of coaching is good in developing these guys who would just be hanging on the bench anyway. Here you are giving these guys experience and seeing who cracks and who stays firm. He is getting what he wants out of his players and seeing who fits for when we do have that playoff run. Bad rotations but sound coaching.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

Not sure what you consider talent, but Minnesota really isn't that talented and guys like Love and Rubio had injury issues this year.

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More excuses. Kevin Love is considered a borderline superstar.

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Originally Posted by Miss_318

Thats the thing tho....GV is going to play hero ball. He's been doing that ever since he was at Maryland. They won a lot of games that way especially close ones where he's been the closer. This is where he needs to learn that in the pros...the last 5-7 min of the game....unless told otherwise...he needs to give the ball to Gordon. I

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I honestly don't have a huge problem with it, he has proven he can score the ball and be effective. But he needs to play off Gordon more, and Gordon needs to take advantage of having guys like Greivis and Anderson out there. Greivis just needs to calm it down a little bit, pick his spots more. We talk about missed lobs, and sometimes I feel he isn't even looking to make a good pass.

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Originally Posted by Nola Hornet

A lot of the open 3s and backdoor cuts for easy buckets were due to the team playing help defense on Parker.

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Of course they were because GV is a horrible defender and was getting toasted, so the rest of the defense need to provide help. A 6'6"slow as a freight train guard should not be guarding Parker off the dibble. Let Gordon handle him off the dibble and while Parker will still score I think we can all agree EG would do a better job on him.

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Originally Posted by RaisingTheBrow

I don't care where we end up record wise. But this is a game we should have easily won. That is what is concerning and upsetting.

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This is a completely different subject. I'm saying that if we have the talent on this roster already losing close games aren't going to prevent them from reaching their potential and it puts us in better position to fill some of the other holes we have.

I still want Brandon Jennings.

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Originally Posted by BuzzmanD

Of course they were because GV is a horrible defender and was getting toasted, so the rest of the defense need to provide help. A 6'6"slow as a freight train guard should not be guarding Parker off the dibble. Let Gordon handle him off the dibble and while Parker will still score I think we can all agree EG would do a better job on him.

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The one time I did see Gordon on him he pressured him well until he gambled for the steal and stopped moving his feet. He plays straight up D he can force him to give the rock up.

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Originally Posted by Nola Hornet

More excuses. Kevin Love is considered a borderline superstar.

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I don't get you. He has missed significant time this season. How is that an excuse? You take the best player of any team and they won't be as good.

Gordon tried to draw too many fouls. He turned the ball over too many times and that is not acceptable from a player like him. You cannot crash the ****ing hoop when players consistently crash the paint like that. Either dish it or take a jump shot; dont make yourself so predictable. I swear after the first two times i started calling them, and i was never wrong. Christ. And **** that ugly *** ogre on their team lol. I cannot believe we let him own us like that. Anybody remember when splitter airballed two FT's in the playoffs? He cant miss them now...

I think thats one of the main reasons you saw EJ disappear in that 2nd half. GV took it on himself to take over. Though Vasquez's stat are great right now.....it might just be getting to his head just a little. He's already kind of a cocky dude. Now that he's tearing it up stat wise starting.....he's feeling himself. I've seen it too many time when I was going to UMD. And because EJ really isn't vocal and hasn't been playing with the team for as long as GV, it could cause a problem....though I doubt that will happen with a guy like Monty coaching.

I can't believe people are bashing the offensive sets. I think most of the sets we run are excellent; they get all our guys in their spots, create mismatches allow us to shoot at a super high efficient rate. Our defense is the problem, and that's not on Monty, it's a problem young teams will have.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

I don't get you. He has missed significant time this season. How is that an excuse? You take the best player of any team and they won't be as good.

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They had a .500 record when he returned!

Worst loss of the season bar none. It was embarrasing and the defense was as absent as greg poppovich.

It's easier for a defense to defend a scorer when the team isn't setting up that guy.

In the first half there were multiple passes made before the ball made it's way to Gordon. By that time there was more spacing and not as much of a crowd. In the second half the ball made its way to Gordon off of dribble handoffs or flex cuts not really forcing the defense to move and extra defenders were able to commit to the ball.

Monty would not put Gordon on Parker for long. They are still babying his knees. The problem that got exposed tonight is too much one-on-one offense. The Spurs took it personal to not let Gordon beat them that way again and did a good job on him late. They also have to be the most slap happy team in the league and never get called for a foul.

We really need Jennings in a P P P P Pelican uniform next season. Would you like to be a Pelican next year Brandon? :crytear:

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Originally Posted by Impose

I can't believe people are bashing the offensive sets. I think most of the sets we run are excellent; they get all our guys in their spots, create mismatches allow us to shoot at a super high efficient rate. Our defense is the problem, and that's not on Monty, it's a problem young teams will have.

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It is just that the offense completely fell apart in crunch time, I agree with you though, I said it in another thread, we are too young to play consistent on either end of the floor, gonna be a streaky season

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Originally Posted by JJackisangry

Worst loss of the season bar none. It was embarrasing and the defense was as absent as greg poppovich.

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pacers at home... warriors at home... theres been some more worse than tonight. losing to a team that is 19-2 at home isn't anywhere near the worst loss of the year.. though it was certainly winnable

The Suns still are the worst of the West!! We saved Gordon from going on that crappy squad

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Originally Posted by JJackisangry

Worst loss of the season bar none. It was embarrasing and the defense was as absent as greg poppovich.

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4 point loss to the spurs and we competed, and for stretches outplayed them, had a chance to win in the end but loss to a more experienced and better team = worse loss of the season

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Originally Posted by jprdbulldog20

pacers at home... warriors at home... theres been some more worse than tonight. losing to a team that is 19-2 at home isn't anywhere near the worst loss of the year.. though it was certainly winnable

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Scoring only 62 points against the Sixers at home wasn't pretty either.

We do tend to go overboard on the dramatics sometimes though. :rolleyes: :hihi:

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Originally Posted by AD23forMVP

It's easier for a defense to defend a scorer when the team isn't setting up that guy.

In the first half there were multiple passes made before the ball made it's way to Gordon. By that time there was more spacing and not as much of a crowd. In the second half the ball made its way to Gordon off of dribble handoffs or flex cuts not really forcing the defense to move and extra defenders were able to commit to the ball.

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The problem with the Hornets defense rears its ugly head. The Hornets defense was designed to stop go-to players while forcing role players to make difficult shots. If there's one krytonite that has been consistent with Williams defense... it comes against teams who have multiple shooters and bigs who can pass out of the post. The Hornets struggle against great passing offense like Houston, GSW, Spurs, and etc..

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Originally Posted by HunnyB

Scoring only 62 points against the Sixers at home wasn't pretty either.

We do tend to go overboard on the dramatics sometimes though. :rolleyes: :hihi:

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yeah i tried to delete that game from my memory. but yeah. that was awful

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Originally Posted by jprdbulldog20

yeah i tried to delete that game from my memory. but yeah. that was awful

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Losing to the Spurs isn't nearly as bad as losing to the Wizards who hadn't won a road game until then. :idoh: This was hardly the worst loss of the season.

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Originally Posted by jprdbulldog20

pacers at home... warriors at home... theres been some more worse than tonight. losing to a team that is 19-2 at home isn't anywhere near the worst loss of the year.. though it was certainly winnable

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This is a rivalry game to me and we let them have the game. GS was bad and so was the pacers game, but this team was missing two key players and its head coach. They were considerably weakened and we let them steal the game bc of too many turnovers and empty posessions.

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Originally Posted by AD23forMVP

It's easier for a defense to defend a scorer when the team isn't setting up that guy.

In the first half there were multiple passes made before the ball made it's way to Gordon. By that time there was more spacing and not as much of a crowd. In the second half the ball made its way to Gordon off of dribble handoffs or flex cuts not really forcing the defense to move and extra defenders were able to commit to the ball.

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And to add to that these dribble handoffs I talked about consist of three offensive players in a five foot area.

So if you have three offensive players in a five foot area, how many total players do you have in such a small space?

SPACING. It's the key to basketball. And when you have a guy like Aminu it only makes matters worse.

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Originally Posted by HunnyB

Losing to the Spurs isn't nearly as bad as losing to the Wizards who hadn't won a road game until then. :idoh: This was hardly the worst loss of the season.

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76s is the worse but im speaking of post tank games (when gordon got back)

For those who say in the second half Vasquez didn't give ball to Gordon,

Man,
Gordon was 0-2 and had 3 turnovers in second half.

The team only had 25 points when the bench at one point for second half. Vasquez somehow had 10 alone.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

The ENTIRE load. Please at least put the argument in the best light and then attack it. Tony Parker got his own and created for others in that final stretch, accounting for 10 of the 12 Spurs points in that final run that won it. Gordon can get his own shot and hit at the end of games, but please dont confuse that with the truly elite closers in the league.

It is not an insult to say a player is not elite. He is very, very good. But if you were making a list of top closers in the NBA and you put Gordon in the top 5-8, then you are just being biased and optimistic IMO

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Gordon doesn't get the chance to carry the entire load. Monty won't run the offense through him, and we all know that he is more than capable. Parker can't do that night in and night out. The Spurs take turns putting weight on Parker, Ginobili, and Duncan. At this point in time, Gordon is by himself.

Again, I think you are being too sensational with your harping on Gordon. The guy isn't even fully healthy yet, and he's still putting up good numbers. He had 17 points in the 1st half on only 6 shots. That is phenomenal. Give him time. He hasn't played real basketball for almost 2 years.

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Originally Posted by HunnyB

Gordon should've had more than 8 shots.

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Exactly. We should be running the offense through him. Not Vasquez...

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Originally Posted by JJackisangry

This is a rivalry game to me and we let them have the game. GS was bad and so was the pacers game, but this team was missing two key players and its head coach. They were considerably weakened and we let them steal the game bc of too many turnovers and empty posessions.

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Again I will say that the Spurs not having Duncan was a slight blessing in disguise for them against us.

We did well against them the last game in NOLA when they tried to run offense through Duncan as part of their attack. Most of what I saw today (in the 2nd half) was them PnR'ing us to death and attacking our backcourt.

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Originally Posted by Eman5805

The one time I did see Gordon on him he pressured him well until he gambled for the steal and stopped moving his feet. He plays straight up D he can force him to give the rock up.

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Your right E, even if Monty does not want to have EG on Parker the entire game to protect his knee why not put your best defender on Parker with 6 minutes left in the game and at least attempt to give us a chance at stopping him? If we had any type of media coverage for the Hornets I sure wish someone would ask him this question and why put X in the game cold off the bench sitting for 1:30 into a tied game with 6 minutes remaining.

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Originally Posted by nolaslim213

Gordon doesn't get the chance to carry the entire load. Monty won't run the offense through him, and we all know that he is more than capable.

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Today at the end he did not very much, but as a generalized statement, I do not agree.

Plenty of times this season Gordon has been given the reigns as closer and as the person bringing the ball up and initiating offense.

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Originally Posted by jacklvyn

For those who say in the second half Vasquez didn't give ball to Gordon,

Man,
Gordon was 0-2 and had 3 turnovers in second half.

The team only had 25 points when the bench at one point for second half. Vasquez somehow had 10 alone.

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He should've had more than 2 shots in the 2nd half.

This is a young team. Horrid 2nd half. It happens. Im angry... Hurray Go pelicans... Whens the next game?

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Originally Posted by JJackisangry

This is a young team. Horrid 2nd half. It happens. Im angry... Hurray Go pelicans... Whens the next game?

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Friday @ home against Houston.

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Originally Posted by djpaul89

Today at the end he did not very much, but as a generalized statement, I do not agree.

Plenty of times this season Gordon has been given the reigns as closer and as the person bringing the ball up and initiating offense.

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Carrying the load at the end of the game isn't the same as running the offense all game. Gordon should start the offense 60% or more of the time, and he isn't anywhere near that.

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Originally Posted by HunnyB

He should've had more than 2 shots in the 2nd half.

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Well theoretically he would have had at least 5 (3 TO's)...right? right? *friendly jab*

And didn't he have a shot or two blocked?

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Originally Posted by HunnyB

Friday @ home against Houston.

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Cool thanks. God we gotta get started up again. We lost 2 very winnable games out of three. We need this one.

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Originally Posted by BuzzmanD

Your right E, even if Monty does not want to have EG on Parker the entire game to protect his knee why not put your best defender on Parker with 6 minutes left in the game and at least attempt to give us a chance at stopping him? If we had any type of media coverage for the Hornets I sure wish someone would ask him this question and why put X in the game cold off the bench sitting for 1:30 into a tied game with 6 minutes remaining.

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I'm not disagreeing that gordon at least should have had more time on parker but I am not seeing where this idea that he is a good defender is coming from, he gambles, gets beat off the dribble, and off the ball loses his man way too much. He has moments and capability but I'm not seeing it, he makes good plays but not enough to overshadow the mistakes he also makes. But that being said none of our other guards are that good of defenders either

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Originally Posted by djpaul89

Well theoretically he would have had at least 5 (3 TO's)...right? right? *friendly jab*

And didn't he have a shot or two blocked?

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I don't see any Block Attempts on the boxscore next to his name. (Unless they gave him turnovers instead of block attempts) ???? I don't know.

Heck, in the 4th quarter alone Vasquez was like 2-4 on his shots.

ETA: Do our threads reach 30 pages when we win? :hihi:

So, to clarify... I have CHAMPIONSHIP expectations long term. I dont care about the regular season. I watch the players every game and project them to playoff basketball, because that is all that matters to me and it is a totally different animal.

I dont go up and down with Aminu and Vasquez every game, because I realize the regular season is not playoff basketball and no matter how good Vasquez and Aminu might look on a random Thursday night when their opponent is in the middle of a grueling season, they will be severely limited when the playoffs come and that team only has to scout the Hornets and play the Hornets for 2 weeks. When you look at it that way, you can see the roster more clearly IMO.

On that note, I think of championship closers- Kobe, Parker, Wade, Pierce, Dirk, Billups, MJ, Durant (this year I predict), etc. and all I am saying is that Gordon is not on that level nor will he be.

Can he be a closer on a good team? Sure. Like Joe Johnson was for the Hawks and has been so far for the Nets. Sure. But I just don't see any way he gets to that elite level that a champion needs to have on its roster.

Is that an insult to Gordon? Is it going to be any less true when he is 100% healthy? Is that a sensational statement?

I think it is a very logical opinion and one we would all have if Gordon was on another team and not on ours. But maybe I am wrong

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Originally Posted by nolaslim213

Carrying the load at the end of the game isn't the same as running the offense all game. Gordon should start the offense 60% or more of the time, and he isn't anywhere near that.

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When I said "and as the person bringing the ball up initiating offense" I meant that as separate, meaning throughout the entire game. No, he doesn't do it 60% of the time. I think it happens at an OK rate...a little more often as a changeup to GV would be cool though. Maybe once he gets more stamina back we'll see it a little more? But 60%, don't think it needs to be THAT much...

I'm with AD23forMVP...I like how Gordon's in the offense for the most part, running a lot of weakside action for him to get the ball in good situations with plenty of spacing, able to call for a pick if he likes.

Results have been okay so far, I'd say. This game just had a "magnifyfing" effect, it seems. There's a nasty taste in my mouth too. But on another revenge-minded team in Houston...

On a unrelated note this game got Gordon to 40% on the season.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

So, to clarify... I have CHAMPIONSHIP expectations long term. I dont care about the regular season. I watch the players every game and project them to playoff basketball, because that is all that matters to me and it is a totally different animal.

I dont go up and down with Aminu and Vasquez every game, because I realize the regular season is not playoff basketball and no matter how good Vasquez and Aminu might look on a random Thursday night when their opponent is in the middle of a grueling season, they will be severely limited when the playoffs come and that team only has to scout the Hornets and play the Hornets for 2 weeks. When you look at it that way, you can see the roster more clearly IMO.

On that note, I think of championship closers- Kobe, Parker, Wade, Pierce, Dirk, Billups, MJ, Durant (this year I predict), etc. and all I am saying is that Gordon is not on that level nor will he be.

Can he be a closer on a good team? Sure. Like Joe Johnson was for the Hawks and has been so far for the Nets. Sure. But I just don't see any way he gets to that elite level that a champion needs to have on its roster.

Is that an insult to Gordon? Is it going to be any less true when he is 100% healthy? Is that a sensational statement?

I think it is a very logical opinion and one we would all have if Gordon was on another team and not on ours. But maybe I am wrong

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Couldn't agree with this anymore. Guys like Greivis Vasquez will look solid when you're not going up against guys like Tony Parker, Chris Paul, etc every night. You get breaks in the regular season and get to go up against guys like Isaiah Thomas.

The good news for Vasquez is he will only play those top 5 pg's 15-18 times a season. After those top 5 pg's it's a big cluster of good, avg, and so on. He is fine as long as he isn't your top 1-2- or 3 option.