Truncated Offseason Thread

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Originally Posted by AusPel

Have you heard rumblings?

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Nothing that I would put any stock in. Just conversation.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

So it's better to have 7 guards and some late picks than a starter quality centre?

Bledsoe may not be optimal but he is an NBA starting PG. He is good enough for that. Adams is a very good centre, even if he's not a superstar. I would much rather have that combination than have yet another guard clogging up our depth chart and the picks we gave up.

And no, if we end up losing Lonzo or Melli or something, that doesn't really trouble me either. I'd prefer to keep Melli if possible, but that's about the extent of my concern there.

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Fair enough. I do believe if we wanted to use Hill as an asset in another deal we could fill a position of need. I?m not against trading our guards (as we have too many) but I don?t think we are getting much value here unless we plan on re-signing Adams which is a possibility.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

So it's better to have 7 guards and some late picks than a starter quality centre?

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Yes! There has never been a worse time to pay a slightly above average starting center 25+ million. I think it is a terrible use of resources to give up 3 draft picks and a good rotation player for a playoff team for the privilege of overpaying this dude by over 10 million dollars. I think you could get 80% of his production for about 5 million. I think if you get into a playoff series, in most matchups, I think he struggles to stay on the floor. It demonstrates a poor understanding of positional value in the modern NBA. Hope I?m wrong and we look back on this positively, but I think this is a mistake. I don?t think it?s a franchise crushing mistake or anything, but I think the decision-making process here is terrible.

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Originally Posted by Biasvasospasm

Yes! There has never been a worse time to pay a slightly above average starting center 25+ million. I think it is a terrible use of resources to give up 3 draft picks and a good rotation player for a playoff team for the privilege of overpaying this dude by over 10 million dollars. I think you could get 80% of his production for about 5 million. I think if you get into a playoff series, in most matchups, I think he struggles to stay on the floor. It demonstrates a poor understanding of positional value in the modern NBA. Hope I?m wrong and we look back on this positively, but I think this is a mistake. I don?t think it?s a franchise crushing mistake or anything, but I think the decision-making process here is terrible.

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To be fair Adams is very good and I don?t think he?d necessarily be a liability in the playoffs, but I agree that we may be better off just going with a stopgap (unless we plan on re-signing Adams and bringing in the big trade next season to finalize our core). I hope this isn?t a shortsighted trade as it looks right now

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

So it's better to have 7 guards and some late picks than a starter quality centre?

Bledsoe may not be optimal but he is an NBA starting PG. He is good enough for that. Adams is a very good centre, even if he's not a superstar. I would much rather have that combination than have yet another guard clogging up our depth chart and the picks we gave up.

And no, if we end up losing Lonzo or Melli or something, that doesn't really trouble me either. I'd prefer to keep Melli if possible, but that's about the extent of my concern there.

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Me and Dae will gracefully pack up Lonzo bags for him and those them down the airport escalator. Getting rid of Lonzo is a net postive move.

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Originally Posted by Taker597

Me and Dae will gracefully pack up Lonzo bags for him and those them down the airport escalator. Getting rid of Lonzo is a net postive move.

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The fact that so many people are willing to dump Zo like he’s trash is a head scratcher for me.

He had it tough in LA. He’s had one season in NO. It would be foolish to toss him now.

I remember when people were calling for BI to be moved. Now look.....

Fact of the matter is, we are not a championship team yet. So rushing to get rid of players now is foolish. Zo is on the cheap this year with it being the last year of his rookie contract. Might as well see what he can do this year.

Free agent Harry Giles has agreed to a one-year deal with the Portland Trail Blazers, source tells ESPN.

— Adrian Wojnarowski (@wojespn) November 22, 2020

Free agent guard Bryn Forbes has agreed to a two-year deal with the Miwaukee Bucks, his agent Mike Lindeman of @excelsm tells ESPN.

— Adrian Wojnarowski (@wojespn) November 22, 2020

I liked both Forbes and Giles. Forbes is a good spot up shooter to space the floor. And Giles would of been a decent 5th big that?s still only 22.

We really only need a 5th big. I think we have plenty of guards. Another wing could be good, but I?m hoping NAW gets promoted to the regular rotation. I still wouldn’t mind adding Torrey Craig or Rondae Hollis-Jefferson

Another thing that scares me about Adams is that he's got the body of a guy 4 or 5 years older than him due to all the punishment he's taken over the years.

Atlanta is submitting an offer sheet on Bogdan Bogdanovic, source tells @TheAthletic.

— Sam Amick (@sam_amick) November 22, 2020

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Originally Posted by AusPel

Another thing that scares me about Adams is that he's got the body of a guy 4 or 5 years older than him due to all the punishment he's taken over the years.

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I'm not really sure what you're referring to. If it's just the fact that he doesn't have a crazy vertical or something then like, okay, Tim Duncan could never jump over a postage stamp who cares?

I'd get it if he was super injury prone or something, from the bumps and tears over time, but he's not really. Out of the 6 seasons prior to this last one (where everyone played fewer games due to cancellation) he played at least 80 games 4 times. The two seasons he played fewer than 80 games, he played 76 and 70.

Free agent Torrey Craig has reached agreement on a deal with the Milwaukee Bucks, his agents Dave Spahn and Austin Brown of @CAA_Basketball tell ESPN.

— Adrian Wojnarowski (@wojespn) November 22, 2020

This is my one real issue with this off-season so far: wings. What the heck is going on with the wing situation?

The Pelicans have been notoriously thin on the wing, lacking real Small Forwards, for ages. We finally get one in Ingram who's good, and then Kenrich goes and we trade Miller and it's like, what now? We have one small forward.

Gotta think Griff has something in mind for that.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

This is my one real issue with this off-season so far: wings. What the heck is going on with the wing situation?

The Pelicans have been notoriously thin on the wing, lacking real Small Forwards, for ages. We finally get one in Ingram who's good, and then Kenrich goes and we trade Miller and it's like, what now? We have one small forward.

Gotta think Griff has something in mind for that.

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Yeah I'm baffled. I thought when we'd seen the end of Dell, surely the new GM would recognise the importance of wings. But Griff seems equally as ambivalent

Damn Torrey Craig just signed with the Bucks

Well Rondae Hollis-Jefferson is up next for me. High energy player that can guard multiple positions, just can’t shoot it.

Glenn Robinson III or Kent Bazemore would be the others that offer more on the offensive end

I think Griff sees the team having 4 guys that can play small forward if needed. BI, Hart, NAW, & Lonzo. But after BI we really don’t have a true small forward

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

This is my one real issue with this off-season so far: wings. What the heck is going on with the wing situation?

The Pelicans have been notoriously thin on the wing, lacking real Small Forwards, for ages. We finally get one in Ingram who's good, and then Kenrich goes and we trade Miller and it's like, what now? We have one small forward.

Gotta think Griff has something in mind for that.

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Well, I think we figured out that's it's not a Gentry thing.. Being a one man ahow at wing and at 5 spells lottery pick.

The deal is guaranteed for $163M and could increase to the $195M by meeting the All-NBA criteria for the 2020-2021 season. https://t.co/llOeo4t1Xl

— Adrian Wojnarowski (@wojespn) November 22, 2020

Utah Jazz All-Star guard Donovan Mitchell has agreed to a five-year, $195M designated rookie max extension, his agents Ty Sullivan and Austin Brown of @caa_sports tell ESPN. Story soon.

— Adrian Wojnarowski (@wojespn) November 22, 2020

We have at least 5 rosters spots to fill, maybe 6. That's not a small amount. Isn't it probably time to start taking at least a risk before the wing cupboard is completely bare?

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Originally Posted by Taker597

Well, I think we figured out that's it's not a Gentry thing.. Being a one man ahow at wing and at 5 spells lottery pick.

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Well part of the issue is that good SFs are rare. That's why even fairly mediocre ones like Jae Crowder never have trouble finding a contract: it's one of the most important positions in the league, and there aren't enough good ones. The ones who are actively plus players tend to get paid a ton. For example, if you look up last year's contracts (I use last year since it's the last completed year before contracts were impacted by this weirdness) you find that 8 of the top 20 highest paid players in the league are SFs, the same as PGs. That means that 16/20 of the league's highest paid players are either PGs, or SFs, which tells you a lot about who tends to be the most impactful and who teams value most highly.

So I get that. It's not like Griff could just go pick up some super special SF for the min or something, we all understand that. But nobody at all? Not a single name? There's no plan to try and put anyone on the wing alongside Ingram? Even re-signing Kenrich would have been better than nothing, at least he's a great team defense guy.

Pelicans: *sign 6'7 Naji Marshall to a 2 way*

Pelicans:... Well, that's the small forward situation sorted.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Well part of the issue is that good SFs are rare. That's why even fairly mediocre ones like Jae Crowder never have trouble finding a contract: it's one of the most important positions in the league, and there aren't enough good ones. The ones who are actively plus players tend to get paid a ton. For example, if you look up last year's contracts (I use last year since it's the last completed year before contracts were impacted by this weirdness) you find that 8 of the top 20 highest paid players in the league are SFs, the same as PGs. That means that 16/20 of the league's highest paid players are either PGs, or SFs, which tells you a lot about who tends to be the most impactful and who teams value most highly.

So I get that. It's not like Griff could just go pick up some super special SF for the min or something, we all understand that. But nobody at all? Not a single name? There's no plan to try and put anyone on the wing alongside Ingram? Even re-signing Kenrich would have been better than nothing, at least he's a great team defense guy.

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I pretty sure Griff and Langdon have talked to MANY FA's about coming here and sure we have "Potential" to be a great team but we aren't a desirable destination for most players. I'm sure we'll get someone eventually or at least trade for a couple of wings but unless we have an excessive amount of money to spend there won't be many that looks our way.

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Originally Posted by hornetzplaya

I pretty sure Griff and Langdon have talked to MANY FA's about coming here and sure we have "Potential" to be a great team but we aren't a desirable destination for most players. I'm sure we'll get someone eventually or at least trade for a couple of wings but unless we have an excessive amount of money to spend there won't be many that looks our way.

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Well sure I know that, I've said as much about a million times whenever people go ''why didn't we acquire X player for Y price when someone else did!''

But nobody? Just no-one, at all? Even Kenrich didn't want to re-sign here? Or is there already a ''yes, we'll sign you'' deal with someone under the table waiting for the Adams trade to be concluded? Or is there a trade they have in mind but are still talking through?

Any of these things could be true and it's annoying knowing very little.

Don’t know how to embed tweets lol. But this tweet from Woj is the reason I wanted Craig


“An important fit for the Bucks, especially because of the way Craig can guard all over the floor. With Denver, Michael Malone used Craig to defend many of the elite wings in the Western Conference.”

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Well sure I know that, I've said as much about a million times whenever people go ''why didn't we acquire X player for Y price when someone else did!''

But nobody? Just no-one, at all? Even Kenrich didn't want to re-sign here? Or is there already a ''yes, we'll sign you'' deal with someone under the table waiting for the Adams trade to be concluded? Or is there a trade they have in mind but are still talking through?

Any of these things could be true and it's annoying knowing very little.

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Its a gift and a curse. I love how everything is unknown till the deal is pretty much done. However I'm with you about knowing very little about our intentions. I just have a huge gut feeling we're gonna be surprised with a trade coming within the next few days for some decent role players coming in.

Teams that need a PG are my teams that I'm watching closely just cause we have an abundance of them.

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Originally Posted by hornetzplaya

Its a gift and a curse. I love how everything is unknown till the deal is pretty much done. However I'm with you about knowing very little about our intentions. I just have a huge gut feeling we're gonna be surprised with a trade coming within the next few days for some decent role players coming in.

Teams that need a PG are my teams that I'm watching closely just cause we have an abundance of them.

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Let me guess.. if I told you Ball wasn't "point guard" it would be a huge surprise to you

Bledsoe and Kira are the only two I'd be comfortable with labelling point guards. You could twist my arm with NAW.

The rest are combo guards at best, pure shooting guards at worst and some inbetween

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Originally Posted by AusPel

Let me guess.. if I told you Ball wasn't "point guard" it would be a huge surprise to you

Bledsoe and Kira are the only two I'd be comfortable with labelling point guards. You could twist my arm with NAW.

The rest are combo guards at best, pure shooting guards at worst and some inbetween

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I don't care what you call Lonzo. If the players initiates the half court offense and are the primary ball handlers I consider them PG's. We gotta trade at least one of those guys. Lonzo or Bledsoe one of those guys has gotta go IMO.

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Originally Posted by hornetzplaya

I don't care what you call Lonzo. If the players initiates the half court offense and are the primary ball handlers I consider them PG's. We gotta trade at least one of those guys. Lonzo or Bledsoe one of those guys has gotta go IMO.

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Lonzo doesn't initiate half court offense. He's actively dreadful at it. It's like, one of his worst skills: I would literally rather NAW do it full time, which is saying something.

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Originally Posted by hornetzplaya

I don't care what you call Lonzo. If the players initiates the half court offensat's e and are the primary ball handlers I consider them PG's. We gotta trade at least one of those guys. Lonzo or Bledsoe one of those guys has gotta go IMO.

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Lol I couldn't have middled that one any cleaner :hihi:

Sorry that's a Cricket reference

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Lonzo doesn't initiate half court offense. He's actively dreadful at it. It's like, one of his worst skills: I would literally rather NAW do it full time, which is saying something.

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Personally I want lonzo to do great things and I believe he will eventually. But I won't miss him if he's traded. For many reasons obviously.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Lonzo doesn't initiate half court offense. He's actively dreadful at it. It's like, one of his worst skills: I would literally rather NAW do it full time, which is saying something.

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I'm really interested in seeing if/how they play him as a 3 & D type that's been mentioned recently rather than putting him strictly at point guard. Would be interesting to see if he could develop into a Bruce Bowen with better rebounding/passing type of player.

The thing is, I don?t see Kira getting too many minutes right away. So Lonzo and Bledsoe are going to be our two main point guards this season, especially in the beginning. You need to have at least 3 point guards and that?s what we currently have. NAW can play point, but he?s better suited playing 2 guard. So right now he will be our backup 2 which he should be ready to contribute there IMO. Unless they plan on starting Lonzo & Bledsoe together, but I hope not. We need JJ?s shooting to space the floor for Zion & BI especially with Adams at center. I hope to see either Lonzo or Bledsoe coming off the bench to run the 2nd unit.

I think Lonzo would be better off coming off the bench cause NAW can initiate your half court offense with the 2nd unit

Lonzo is not really a point guard in the half court. He's also not a 2 guard, because he cannot create his own shot with any consistency or regularity.

I would actually not be adverse, if he ends up staying, to playing him more as a backup 3. Yes, he's only 6'6 which is a touch undersized but he has a 6'9 wingspan I think, and is fairly strong, which would help overcome the deficit at least a good portion of the time and would also relieve him of the difficulties of ever having to run a halfcourt offense. And relieve me of the pain of having to watch him try.

In that case, Kira would be playing - and I think he should be. It's important to remember that while Kira is only 19, he actually had 2 years in college. He ran a successful SEC offense at the age of 17, and improved it again the next year at 18. He has a lot of growth to do, but I say he deserves to be given minutes with the opportunity to lose them, rather than be relegated to 3rd or even 4th on the PG depth chart and be told to consider himself lucky ifhe gets 3 minutes a game.

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Originally Posted by Biasvasospasm

Yes! There has never been a worse time to pay a slightly above average starting center 25+ million. I think it is a terrible use of resources to give up 3 draft picks and a good rotation player for a playoff team for the privilege of overpaying this dude by over 10 million dollars. I think you could get 80% of his production for about 5 million. I think if you get into a playoff series, in most matchups, I think he struggles to stay on the floor. It demonstrates a poor understanding of positional value in the modern NBA. Hope I?m wrong and we look back on this positively, but I think this is a mistake. I don?t think it?s a franchise crushing mistake or anything, but I think the decision-making process here is terrible.

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Who cares if he struggles to stay on the floor in the playoffs? No he is not very good covering in space. But he is a definite upgrade over old man Favors. Adams straight line movement and touch around the rim is still very good for a man his size. This year isnt about winning in the playoffs. Just getting there through regular season play is a cherry. However, he is a very serviceable center to further the goal of bringing a winning culture and some toughness to the team, even if just for 1 year.

And let's be honest, your raging about all this is really just about Lonzo. It's okay. He's put a spell on lots of yall out there. How? I do not know.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

Who cares if he struggles to stay on the floor in the playoffs? No he is not very good covering in space. But he is a definite upgrade over old man Favors. Adams straight line movement and touch around the rim is still very good for a man his size. This year isnt about winning in the playoffs. Just getting there through regular season play is a cherry. However, he is a very serviceable center to further the goal of bringing a winning culture and some toughness to the team, even if just for 1 year.

And let's be honest, your raging about all this is really just about Lonzo. It's okay. He's put a spell on lots of yall out there. How? I do not know.

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I think people massively underrate Adams, honestly. I didn't think this, until this thread, but once detailed discussion of him came out it's clear how much people picture him as being some completely immobile stiff when that's really not the case. For example, I've seen people describe him as being ground-bound, which is kinda strange: he's not some immense leaper with a 40'' vertical or anything but he gets up for dunks and stuff. He has really good hands on both ends. He's a great passer for a big (not the all-time elite Jokic type level, of course, but very good). He's a career 67% shooter at the rim, and 45.3% in the paint in general - he's not going to shoot threes or anything but he has some range. You can let him shoot a 10 footer or something, it's fine. He draws fouls well. He uses his size well, boxes really well, is a fantastic screener, protects the paint.

Like you say, he's not the perfect centre, sure. There are critiques to his game: if there weren't, he'd be a superstar and he's not. But people are acting like he's some borderline NBA scrub instead of a very very good starter, which is absurd.

Do I pass up Lonzo, for example, who sucks in a ton of ways, for Adams? Of course I do, and it's not really a close conversation.

Trade complete:

MIL: Jrue Holiday, No. 60 pick Sam Merrill
NOLA: Steven Adams, Eric Bledsoe, ‘25/'27 1sts, ‘24/'26 swaps via MIL
OKC: George Hill, Josh Gray, Kenrich Williams, Zylan Cheatham, Darius Miller, ‘23 protected 1st via Denver, two 2nd round picks
DEN: RJ Hampton

— Shams Charania (@ShamsCharania) November 22, 2020

The Legend of Kenny Hustle must continue elsewhere. lol Zylan is a great locker room guy, I'd prefer to keep him around, but I'd rather have Adams and Bedsore this year. Holy crap do we even have backup SF? Hart is kinda one, but let's see who they bring in.

Okay so basically, we sent them a ton of 2 ways and fringe NBA players to make up the money. That's fine.

Someone is gonna look at that offer and go ''WE GAVE UP 5 PLAYERS?!?!?!!''

Glenn Robinson III is a perfect 3 & D guy still available. He shot 39% from 3 this past year. Give me him and either Thon Maker or Frank Kaminsky. Seems like every year I?m wanting another 3 and a 5th big a few days into free agency lol

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Originally Posted by DaPelFromHell

Glenn Robinson III is a perfect 3 & D guy still available. He shot 39% from 3 this past year. Give me him and either Thon Maker or Frank Kaminsky. Seems like every year I?m wanting another 3 and a 5th big a few days into free agency lol

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Why would you want us to sign Thon Maker or Frank Kaminsky when they're both really bad at basketball?

[

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Originally Posted by luckyman

Who cares if he struggles to stay on the floor in the playoffs?

And let's be honest, your raging about all this is really just about Lonzo. It's okay. He's put a spell on lots of yall out there. How? I do not know.

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I care if I am giving up picks, a good player in George Hill, and 25m for him. I am not delusional and don?t think we?re going to compete. But those limitations make him a bad long-term fit, and that is a lot to give up for a stop gap. And I worry that investment will make us try to resign him at an above-market next contract.

I?m ambivalent at best at this point about Lonzo, so don?t know where you are getting that from. But if you want to have an argument with a straw man, be my guest.

I hate that we are giving assets to get a bad contract at a replaceable position, what it says about what this team will prioritize, and the potential that we sign Adams to a terrible contract on his next contract a la Asik if he is not a disaster for us this year. If we gave away other actual players who may have value, whether it was NAW or Lonzo or to a lesser extent Melli, I would hate it more. I am relieved we didn?t give away anyone else besides Hill who can actually play, but still intensely dislike this trade and wish we had gone another route.

Pels right now:

Lonzo Ball
Eric Bledsoe
Nickeil Alexander-Walker
Kira Lewis
JJ Redick
Josh Hart

Brandon Ingram*
Naji Marshall (two-way)

Zion Williamson
Nicolo Melli
Steven Adams
Jaxson Hayes

Now Pels can get to work on rest of the roster now the trade is done.

— Andrew Lopez (@_Andrew_Lopez) November 22, 2020

Yeah... so one real NBA calibre SF. And they're not technically even signed yet.

''get to work on the rest of the roster'' is gonna have to be trades really, if we're trying to add quality, because the FA pool is currently bone dry.

I've long thought that Griff takes a highlighter to every paragraph of the CBA that he's utilized, with the goal of a completely-highlighted CBA by the time he's done. https://t.co/CyYoFsPDEz

— Larry Coon (@LarryCoon) November 22, 2020

Regardless of whether or not you support the trade, Griff continues his long tradition of absolutely warping the CBA to the nth degree.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

I've long thought that Griff takes a highlighter to every paragraph of the CBA that he's utilized, with the goal of a completely-highlighted CBA by the time he's done. https://t.co/CyYoFsPDEz

— Larry Coon (@LarryCoon) November 22, 2020

Regardless of whether or not you support the trade, Griff continues his long tradition of absolutely warping the CBA to the nth degree.

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At least he gets the cap. The Bucks stuff yesterday with Pat and DJ was embarrassing and made me feel better about shorting that FO in a small market.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Okay so basically, we sent them a ton of 2 ways and fringe NBA players to make up the money. That's fine.

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I can live with that. I?m glad we made it work at the very least. Didn?t want to send anyone else

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Originally Posted by Biasvasospasm

At least he gets the cap. The Bucks stuff yesterday with Pat and DJ was embarrassing and made me feel better about shorting that FO in a small market.

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It was a disgrace, for sure. Nobody expects GMs to understand the cap in its entirety themselves, but that's why they hire cap guys. People whose job it is to know the cap, and to help them with it.

The Bucks mess was exactly that, a mess.

As you say, whether you like the trades Griff makes or not, he and/or his cap guys know the CBA inside and out. He's spent years making absurdly finnicky little trades that exploit every option.

Sweet I knew we were not going to have to give up a rotation player.

I figured that trade was holding us up. I hope we didn’t want to go after Craig, but I’m sure he would rather play for the Bucks than us

New Orleans is one of the few teams that have both exceptions available and roster spots open.

Projected $6M below the tax if you factor in a lucrative contract for Brandon Ingram. https://t.co/nBjygBBzmH

— Bobby Marks (@BobbyMarks42) November 22, 2020

We have some money. Not a huge quantity but we do.

But there's nobody out there in FA worth that much right now, imo. So what do we do? Uneven trade where we take back more than we send out for tax relief somewhere? Idk.

We could still hit E'twaun with the S&T, I guess

We signing a Euro guy or something? I’m down for a funky name