Game Day Thread! Pelicans vs Grizzlies 3/07/15

The only question that matters is whether Ajinca and a player TBD can give you 75% of Asik's defense and 400% of his offense for 65% of his cost.

I feel like people are attached to Asik, and it really just comes down to value. Asik is fine on a short deal with a team option in the 3rd year, or a 4 yr deal at around $8m per. 4 years and $40+m for Asik is absolutely insane both because of the length and the cost.

400% of his offense or his scoring?

Putting the ball through the hoop is not the only way to effect the game on offense. Asik is a great offensive rebounder and is the best pick setter on this team by a mile. He also has shown some solid passing skills from the high post, and maybe most importantly, he doesn't demand the ball from his high usage teammates.

I don't know what 400% of his offense would look like. You would have to find a guy who puts up 28 points and 12 offensive rebounds in 26 minutes. Basically, you would need Wilt Chamberlain in his prime.

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Originally Posted by rt0307

Anthony Davis had 23 pts, 10 reb & 5 blk vs Grizzlies Saturday, his 8th 20-10-5 game of the season. Rest of NBA has 6 such games COMBINED.

— ESPN Stats & Info (@ESPNStatsInfo) March 8, 2015

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Two more than the rest of the league. Awesome!!!

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

400% of his offense or his scoring?

Putting the ball through the hoop is not the only way to effect the game on offense. Asik is a great offensive rebounder and is the best pick setter on this team by a mile. He also has shown some solid passing skills from the high post, and maybe most importantly, he doesn't demand the ball from his high usage teammates.

I don't know what 400% of his offense would look like. You would have to find a guy who puts up 28 points and 12 offensive rebounds in 26 minutes. Basically, you would need Wilt Chamberlain in his prime.

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Honestly, I think you should know that I know basketball, having been coached by some of the best to ever do it for 10 years out of my life. So you don't have to say putting the ball through the hoops is the only way to effect the game on offense. I know this, man. And it sounds kind of condescending.

Ajinca is easily a much better offensive player than Asik, and it's not even close, and he doesn't have to be high usage to show that. I'm looking at his skill level away from the basket and in the post, as well as moving without the ball and passing the ball. He allows the offense to run better as well because he's not just in the way on the end of the court. He actually has to be defended after he sets a pick. He's actually a an option for our guards to dump it off to when they get into the paint. Asik isn't. The guards are better off forcing up the shot, which makes them less efficient.

Now does that mean he's "400%" or 4x better than Asik, I'm not sure. How much better would you say he is on offense?

My question still remains, is it better to pay Ajinca and a player TBD 65% of the cost for xx% of Asik's defense and xx% of his offense?

You can plug in whatever numbers you want, but it's still a relevant question.

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

Honestly, I think you should know that I know basketball, having been coached by some of the best to ever do it for 10 years out of my life. So you don't have to say putting the ball through the hoops is the only way to effect the game on offense. I know this, man. And it sounds kind of condescending.

Ajinca is easily a much better offensive player than Asik, and it's not even close, and he doesn't have to be high usage to show that. I'm looking at his skill level away from the basket and in the post, as well as moving without the ball and passing the ball. He allows the offense to run better as well because he's not just in the way on the end of the court. He actually has to be defended after he sets a pick. He's actually a an option for our guards to dump it off to when they get into the paint. Asik isn't. The guards are better off forcing up the shot, which makes them less efficient.

Now does that mean he's "400%" or 4x better than Asik, I'm not sure. How much better would you say he is on offense?

My question still remains, is it better to pay Ajinca and a player TBD 65% of the cost for xx% of Asik's defense and xx% of his offense?

You can plug in whatever numbers you want, but it's still a relevant question.

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I agree. Asik is a liability on offense and in crunch and the way our players are handicapped shows it. The offense flows better FROM EYE TEST when players have a option to dump of the ball in the post when defenses cave in on the perimeter. Ive seen plenty of times when the shot clock is closing in, and inside the post is a great option, it becomes unrealiable and a costly turnover whenever the silly goose Asik is in the paint. Our team doesnt trust him in the paint, and if you cant see that, then your simpily ignoring the reality. Ajincia was huge in our mini run of wins for a reason. And his confidence is growing, why not let the guy break free?

Put Asik in the game when it matters. For defensive purposes and eating rebounds. But Ajincia is far more a important piece becomes the team flows better with him on the court. I dont care what the numbers say. We all see it. ASIK HANDICAPS US.

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

Honestly, I think you should know that I know basketball, having been coached by some of the best to ever do it for 10 years out of my life. So you don't have to say putting the ball through the hoops is the only way to effect the game on offense. I know this, man. And it sounds kind of condescending.

Ajinca is easily a much better offensive player than Asik, and it's not even close, and he doesn't have to be high usage to show that. I'm looking at his skill level away from the basket and in the post, as well as moving without the ball and passing the ball. He allows the offense to run better as well because he's not just in the way on the end of the court. He actually has to be defended after he sets a pick. He's actually a an option for our guards to dump it off to when they get into the paint. Asik isn't. The guards are better off forcing up the shot, which makes them less efficient.

Now does that mean he's "400%" or 4x better than Asik, I'm not sure. How much better would you say he is on offense?

My question still remains, is it better to pay Ajinca and a player TBD 65% of the cost for xx% of Asik's defense and xx% of his offense?

You can plug in whatever numbers you want, but it's still a relevant question.

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I would grade the players like this:

Defense:

Asik - 85
Ajinca - 65

Offense:

Ajinca - 70
Asik - 65

I think Ajinca can make more shots on offense and is a bigger threat to score, but I think Asik does everything else better (set screens, move without the ball, knows his limitations, pass, etc.) on the offensive end.

I think the other side is a big difference, however. Ideally, I wouldn't have to compare and contrast, though. Because my plan if I were Dell would be to bring back both and I think he has the resources to do it. I like them being my center combo for the next 3-4 years.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

I would grade the players like this:

Defense:

Asik - 85
Ajinca - 65

Offense:

Ajinca - 70
Asik - 65

I think Ajinca can make more shots on offense and is a bigger threat to score, but I think Asik does everything else better (set screens, move without the ball, knows his limitations, pass, etc.) on the offensive end.

I think the other side is a big difference, however. Ideally, I wouldn't have to compare and contrast, though. Because my plan if I were Dell would be to bring back both and I think he has the resources to do it. I like them being my center combo for the next 3-4 years.

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In in crunch time moment in the playoffs, would you trust Asik at the C position? If he had to be a option in the post?

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

I would grade the players like this:

Defense:

Asik - 85
Ajinca - 65

Offense:

Ajinca - 70
Asik - 65

I think Ajinca can make more shots on offense and is a bigger threat to score, but I think Asik does everything else better (set screens, move without the ball, knows his limitations, pass, etc.) on the offensive end.

I think the other side is a big difference, however. Ideally, I wouldn't have to compare and contrast, though. Because my plan if I were Dell would be to bring back both and I think he has the resources to do it. I like them being my center combo for the next 3-4 years.

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Ok, if you really think there is that much separation between Asik and Ajinca on defense, but that little separation between the two on offense, there's no point in us discussing this because we won't ever agree that sky is above and the ground is below.

But I think it's funny that you keep talking about Asik's screening. If you were the coach of the other team, how would you tell your team to play an Ajinca screen vs an Asik screen? Further on offense, knowing the limitations of Ajinca and Asik, what would you coach them to do when setting screens?

Think about that, and then tell me which player's screen action is more effective in our offense.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

I would grade the players like this:

Defense:

Asik - 85
Ajinca - 65

Offense:

Ajinca - 70
Asik - 65

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And further, even though I think your ratings are flawed, if I told you for 30% of the money you could have Player X that is 75% the defender, 110% the offensive player, 1 year younger, and showed an improvement over his 2013/14 numbers as opposed to Asik and his aching back and knees, who looks to have peaked 3 years ago, wouldn't you jump on it and spend the $40m you want to give Asik elsewhere?

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

And further, even though I think your ratings are flawed, if I told you for 30% of the money you could have Player X that is 75% the defender, 110% the offensive player, 1 year younger, and showed an improvement over his 2013/14 numbers as opposed to Asik and his aching back and knees, who looks to have peaked 3 years ago, wouldn't you jump on it and spend the $40m you want to give Asik elsewhere?

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This wouldn't be a true scenario since Asik is actually having one of, if not his best, years ever.

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

And further, even though I think your ratings are flawed, if I told you for 30% of the money you could have Player X that is 75% the defender, 110% the offensive player, 1 year younger, and showed an improvement over his 2013/14 numbers as opposed to Asik and his aching back and knees, who looks to have peaked 3 years ago, wouldn't you jump on it and spend the $40m you want to give Asik elsewhere?

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I have to address the common misconception that the money we use to pay Asik can be spent elsewhere. Asik's bird rights allow us to go over the cap in order to retain him, something we couldn't do with other FAs available. So your options are pretty much limited to Asik or someone cheap like a Dalembert or Steimsma. There is no scenario where we don't push like hell to retain Asik.

I

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Originally Posted by studentofthegam

They have a language filter setting on the site for people who are as sensitive as you. And I would not have a problem with what you said had you simply stated you didn't agree with the language used on the site. You went much further and started with your usual I am better than everyone attitude even to the point where you referred to the majority of the site as psychotic (seems like you are the one who is upset, not me.)

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I find that last part funny bc you seem to be going extreme bro might wanna relax a little bit

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Originally Posted by studentofthegam

I have to address the common misconception that the money we use to pay Asik can be spent elsewhere. Asik's bird rights allow us to go over the cap in order to retain him, something we couldn't do with other FAs available. So your options are pretty much limited to Asik or someone cheap like a Dalembert or Steimsma. There is no scenario where we don't push like hell to retain Asik.

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My point would be that Ajinca and someone cheap would be better long term than a 4 yr commitment to Asik.

We could sign and trade Asik, creating a trade exemption that could be useful to us next season. Maybe we attach a protected future 2nd round pick if the other team needs incentive to help us.

But also, by not exceeding the cap by whatever it cost to resign Asik, we have the addition of that amount to spend in 2016-18 when the cap increases.

If you don't think having an extra $10-12m in cap room is important in 2016-18 and believe Asik makes you a championship contender next season, by all mean go for it.

But I think Ajinca and an upgrade to Withey that can play 15mpg, is a much better deal than Asik at 4yrs/$40m or more.

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Originally Posted by Mythrol

This wouldn't be a true scenario since Asik is actually having one of, if not his best, years ever.

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Ok, whatever. Still doesn't change the math. Do you invest in the younger player, Ajinca, that gives you 75% on defense and 110% on offense or pay 350% more for Asik, the older player with knee and back problems?

I think the answer is obvious and probably why you didn't answer the question the first time. But if you're going to die on your resigning Asik hill, just say so and I'll move on.

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

Ok, whatever. Still doesn't change the math. Do you invest in the younger player, Ajinca, that gives you 75% on defense and 110% on offense or pay 350% more for Asik, the older player with knee and back problems?

I think the answer is obvious and probably why you didn't answer the question the first time. But if you're going to die on your resigning Asik hill, just say so and I'll move on.

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It's not an either or option. We can keep Ajinca and Asik. That is exactly what I would do.

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Originally Posted by Mythrol

It's not an either or option. We can keep Ajinca and Asik. That is exactly what I would do.

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But that's a luxury move. That's the kind of thing you do when you're not rotating DC/QPon at Small forward, or when you've made a playoff run and you just need to bring the band back because you were a few bad breaks away from the finals.

I'm not so much worried about Omer in 2015/16 as I am dreading having him on or roster/cap beyond that. When the cap goes up, that $10-12m you give Omer is summer, is $10-12m less you have to spend on free agents beyond this summer.

Let's say we go over the cap to resign Asik at $10m, cap goes up $20m in 2016, Gordon expires, and Ryno expires. We'd be looking at approximately $35m to spend. If we don't resign Asik, we're looking at $45m to spend in 2016.

If I can get 75% of the defensive production and 110% of the offense from Ajinca and actually have that $10m extra to spend in 2016, which is the better long term play? Which is the better play for building the best team possible in AD's next contract. Which option gives you the most flexibility?

Mythrol, if this team was closer to championship contention, I'd be on board with bringing Asik back. If we could get him for 3 years with a team option, I might even give him his $10m per! But he's no longer a value at 4 year AND $40-44m.

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Originally Posted by Silverfoxx

In in crunch time moment in the playoffs, would you trust Asik at the C position? If he had to be a option in the post?

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

But I think it's funny that you keep talking about Asik's screening. If you were the coach of the other team, how would you tell your team to play an Ajinca screen vs an Asik screen? Further on offense, knowing the limitations of Ajinca and Asik, what would you coach them to do when setting screens?

Think about that, and then tell me which player's screen action is more effective in our offense.

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In three recent victories Asik was in the game during crunch time to set up huge go-ahead buckets. In two games including last night he set great down screens to free up EG at the top of the key for critical threes. In the DET game he set a great down screen for AD to help ice that game. So he has proven to be a functional player in crunch time, depending on the situation.

Silverfoxx, why would he need to be an offensive option with the players he'd likely be on the court with? Moot question IMO. Whenever we've wanted our center to be an primary option, Monty has just situationally subbed in AA, which supports those who say keep both. That's great flexibility.

NM3, I think you're specifically thinking of on-ball screens only when everyone else is thinking all around. Sagging down on off-ball screens doesn't do much good if the screener perfectly walls off the defender and creates plenty of space for the shooter. No, Ajinca is not as effective as far as positioning himself and walling off defenders in a screen. And Lord knows AD isn't. Asik is the best screening big we have easily, maybe not as far as being a secondary offensive threat after the screen but for freeing up the first option for a great look.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

400% of his offense or his scoring?

Putting the ball through the hoop is not the only way to effect the game on offense. Asik is a great offensive rebounder and is the best pick setter on this team by a mile. He also has shown some solid passing skills from the high post, and maybe most importantly, he doesn't demand the ball from his high usage teammates.

I don't know what 400% of his offense would look like. You would have to find a guy who puts up 28 points and 12 offensive rebounds in 26 minutes. Basically, you would need Wilt Chamberlain in his prime.

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You got to think of a better argument than "he sets good screens". What does it matter if he sets good screens if no one needs to respect him as a roller? Moving without the ball is great but you literally don't have to guard him because of he goes outside a 2 ft zone of the rim he literally can't score. The scouting report reads: "leave Omer Asik completely alone. He will make some dunks but half the time he will drop the ball or it will be blocked or swiped. Is that not how you would scout the Pelicans? If I am a coach of the other team I say, every time Asik has the ball in his hands good things will happen for us so let that happen. Having a player like that really makes it difficult for other players.

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Originally Posted by djpaul89

In three recent victories Asik was in the game during crunch time to set up huge go-ahead buckets. In two games including last night he set great down screens to free up EG at the top of the key for critical threes. In the DET game he set a great down screen for AD to help ice that game. So he has proven to be a functional player in crunch time, depending on the situation.

Silverfoxx, why would he need to be an offensive option with the players he'd likely be on the court with? Moot question IMO. Whenever we've wanted our center to be an primary option, Monty has just situationally subbed in AA, which supports those who say keep both. That's great flexibility.

NM3, I think you're specifically thinking of on-ball screens only when everyone else is thinking all around. Sagging down on off-ball screens doesn't do much good if the screener perfectly walls off the defender and creates plenty of space for the shooter. No, Ajinca is not as effective as far as positioning himself and walling off defenders in a screen. And Lord knows AD isn't. Asik is the best screening big we have easily, maybe not as far as being a secondary offensive threat after the screen but for freeing up the first option for a great look.

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What are you saying by saying that he is the best screening big we have? That's great, that doesn't mean we keep him. I'm stronger than my wife, does that make me really strong?

The argument isn't that Ajinca is better than asik, you could argue that he is, but I'm not, im just saying that Asik is a negative for this offense and could be argued for this defense in some situations, we will have to upgrade at some point- soon.

They are better at different times. This is one case where matchups truly matter.

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Originally Posted by heybigmatt

What are you saying by saying that he is the best screening big we have? That's great, that doesn't mean we keep him. I'm stronger than my wife, does that make me really strong?

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I said nothing about keeping or not keeping him in my post. Weak straw man argument in an attempt to make a comeback.

I have come to terms with the fact that I will never be able to sway most of those who are against Asik, and that is fine. I would just hope that an open mind can be kept. I feel like some people have dug in here and maybe use a little bit of hyperbole to exaggerate his weaknesses.

He is quite goofy and doesn't look like what you think of when you imagine a basketball player, but he does a lot of good too. The money argument is fine with me. Prefer to use those resources elsewhere and try your luck going really cheap at center? Fine. But let's not over exaggerate his weaknesses and dismiss his strengths too. That would be all I ask.

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

Ok, if you really think there is that much separation between Asik and Ajinca on defense, but that little separation between the two on offense, there's no point in us discussing this because we won't ever agree that sky is above and the ground is below.

But I think it's funny that you keep talking about Asik's screening. If you were the coach of the other team, how would you tell your team to play an Ajinca screen vs an Asik screen? Further on offense, knowing the limitations of Ajinca and Asik, what would you coach them to do when setting screens?

Think about that, and then tell me which player's screen action is more effective in our offense.

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This is so true, if we are scouting both players, i say guys its really simple, don't guard asik anyone he sets a screen on just armbar him so he can't get through until the defender can get through the screen then sink down to the lane. Never pay attention to Asik. Thats my scouting report. I don't see how you can refute that?- oh- box him out.

Ajinca- you got to pay attention to him, he is slow, but if he gets position on the block its hard to block his shot, probably send a defender down to double in the post because he won't be able to handle the pressure. Has a soft stroke so will pop back on screens be wary of this. Thats my scouting report on ajinca.

Defensively

Pull asik away from the basket, drive the ball because their perimeter defense is sub bar, and he won't be able to recover in time have any affect. Great one on one defender, Good rebounder.

Ajinca, slow, not much of a defender, does have length that can alter shots, put the pressure on him and he will give up rebounds. Go at him and he will give up fouls. Can alter shots.

Am i way off on any of these scouting reports?

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

I have come to terms with the fact that I will never be able to sway most of those who are against Asik, and that is fine. I would just hope that an open mind can be kept. I feel like some people have dug in here and maybe use a little bit of hyperbole to exaggerate his weaknesses.

He is quite goofy and doesn't look like what you think of when you imagine a basketball player, but he does a lot of good too. The money argument is fine with me. Prefer to use those resources elsewhere and try your luck going really cheap at center? Fine. But let's not over exaggerate his weaknesses and dismiss his strengths too. That would be all I ask.

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dude I want to be swayed, i am a pelicans fan. Give me something better than, he sets good screens though.... I want to like asik, i just don't have much hope for a center who can't jump over a credit card, can't catch, easily stripped and blocked center. he just won't command any respect and I don't think anything i just said is hyperbole. He is a fantastic 1 on 1 defender of big men, that goes without saying and he can make plays on offensive rebounds and get rebounds on defense as well. I think we need more than that. And i think it is more important than a small forward, so I hope we get rid of ryno/ tyreke /eg and focus all that money on a center who can command some attention to free up space for AD and Jrue.