NBA DRAFT 2020 DISCUSSION

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Originally Posted by ml wave

Griff was also trading basically the single biggest asset that's been traded in the league since what, Kareem? Meanwhile, Demps was out there trading Greivis Vazquez and whatnot.

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Demps has a huge asset to trade when he began as well - Chris Paul.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

Demps has a huge asset to trade when he began as well - Chris Paul.

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I'll never fault Demps for the Chris Paul trade because we don't know what Demps would have done with the assets from the initial Lakers deal, and Eric Gordon was just a no win situation. Most of those assets ended up being moved for James Harden.

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Originally Posted by pelafanatic

I'll never fault Demps for the Chris Paul trade because we don't know what Demps would have done with the assets from the initial Lakers deal, and Eric Gordon was just a no win situation. Most of those assets ended up being moved for James Harden.

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I am not sure any assets other than Kevin Martin were included in the Harden trade.

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Originally Posted by Nola3

General consensus seems to be that he's got all the measurables of a lottery pick but he's, like, just not good at basketball.

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Yeah, basically this.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

I am not sure any assets other than Kevin Martin were included in the Harden trade.

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Chris Paul for James Harden straight up. Hindsight is 2020 (now that we're living in it) and the cap be damned.

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Originally Posted by boardtown

Chris Paul for James Harden straight up. Hindsight is 2020 (now that we're living in it) and the cap be damned.

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What? You make 0 sense. They weren’t moved in the same season. And besides, OKC moved Harden to shed his commanding salary.

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Originally Posted by pelafanatic

I'll never fault Demps for the Chris Paul trade because we don't know what Demps would have done with the assets from the initial Lakers deal, and Eric Gordon was just a no win situation. Most of those assets ended up being moved for James Harden.

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Dude.. seeing what Demps did during his entire tenure, that’s not something I’d want to fantasize about. I bet it would have been just as underwhelming as his entire body of work.

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Originally Posted by Snarly

What? You make 0 sense. They weren’t moved in the same season. And besides, OKC moved Harden to shed his commanding salary.

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I reckon my /s font was turned off. My bad. As I stated above, the cap be damned.

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Originally Posted by Snarly

Dude.. seeing what Demps did during his entire tenure, that’s not something I’d want to fantasize about. I bet it would have been just as underwhelming as his entire body of work.

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What if he just traded Chris Paul for James Harden straight up?

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Originally Posted by Snarly

Dude.. seeing what Demps did during his entire tenure, that’s not something I’d want to fantasize about. I bet it would have been just as underwhelming as his entire body of work.

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Dude... My point was that in the initial trade, Demps got better players and assets than he ended up getting in the Clippers trade that was forced upon him. Dragic alone would've been huge for the Pels, and a perfect fit next to AD. Kevin Martin, Lamar Odom, Goran Dragic, Luis Scola, and a 2012 first is so much more valuable than what the Hornets ended up getting from the Clippers. Martin got moved with two firsts for Harden. Odom was traded to Dallas for a 1st. Dragic became one of the better point guards in the league, and would have been incredible next to Jrue and AD. Scola averaged 15 and 6 that year as well.

Demps did not make the right moves, but I can't say that the original Lakers deal was the wrong one.

Realized while doing this research that Gordon has basically become Kevin Martin.

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Originally Posted by pelafanatic

Dude... My point was that in the initial trade, Demps got better players and assets than he ended up getting in the Clippers trade that was forced upon him. Dragic alone would've been huge for the Pels, and a perfect fit next to AD. Kevin Martin, Lamar Odom, Goran Dragic, Luis Scola, and a 2012 first is so much more valuable than what the Hornets ended up getting from the Clippers. Martin got moved with two firsts for Harden. Odom was traded to Dallas for a 1st. Dragic became one of the better point guards in the league, and would have been incredible next to Jrue and AD. Scola averaged 15 and 6 that year as well.

Demps did not make the right moves, but I can't say that the original Lakers deal was the wrong one.

Realized while doing this research that Gordon has basically become Kevin Martin.

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That literally means no AD with a bunch of mediocre talent where the Pelicans sits at 8-10 seed year in and year out with no cap space. Think about it. It didn’t sound good then and it definitely doesn’t sound good in hindsight. I wouldn’t change a thing knowing that everything led to what we are today with a legitimate front office and the assets and resources that we’re extremely fortunate to have. It’s a great position to be in.

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Originally Posted by Snarly

That literally means no AD with a bunch of mediocre talent where the Pelicans sits at 8-10 seed year in and year out with no cap space. Think about it. It didn’t sound good then and it definitely doesn’t sound good in hindsight. I wouldn’t change a thing knowing that everything led to what we are today with a legitimate front office and the assets and resources that we’re extremely fortunate to have. It’s a great position to be in.

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I'm not saying I would change it. I'm saying I don't fault Dell for the Clippers trade. That's it. I don't think he was a good GM.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

Demps has a huge asset to trade when he began as well - Chris Paul.

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Hmm good point...and he did target young players with upside at that time. Gordon then was basically = Ingram a year ago.

Im liking vassell/patrick williams/tyler bey with our pick

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Originally Posted by PaKwAn

Im liking vassell/patrick williams/tyler bey with our pick

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I just can't get behind picking a toolsy guy this year over an offensive upside guy. Hollinger came out with an article today outlining the guys who are underpaid compared to the value the add, and nearly every one of them is a defensively-inclined wing with some shooting ability. Point being, these are the guys that are usually left after the first wave of FA, so they get signed on a value deal. You can infer from their value on the open market that they probably don't possess much trade value either.

If you miss on a toolsy guy, it hurts you much worse than if you miss on a high upside scorer. The scorers will nearly always hold trade value for longer because of the perception and how difficult it is to find scoring. If you're picking in the 20s, then sure go find a guy who can fill a need with high character. Not in the lottery, however.

If you look back at the past 4 years, drafting these types of players in the lottery has almost never worked out, especially in their first 2-3 years. The lone exception might be Jaylen Brown depending on how you feel about his game, but he has elite level athleticism and a incredible bball IQ defensively.

Best guess as of today we have four picks in this draft. Number 13,39,41 and 60. I don't care how we can use our draft capital but at the end of the day I'd like just two players.

https://www.thestepien.com/2020/02/2...outing-report/

https://www.peachtreehoops.com/2020/...ig-role-player

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Originally Posted by pelafanatic

I just can't get behind picking a toolsy guy this year over an offensive upside guy. Hollinger came out with an article today outlining the guys who are underpaid compared to the value the add, and nearly every one of them is a defensively-inclined wing with some shooting ability. Point being, these are the guys that are usually left after the first wave of FA, so they get signed on a value deal. You can infer from their value on the open market that they probably don't possess much trade value either.

If you miss on a toolsy guy, it hurts you much worse than if you miss on a high upside scorer. The scorers will nearly always hold trade value for longer because of the perception and how difficult it is to find scoring. If you're picking in the 20s, then sure go find a guy who can fill a need with high character. Not in the lottery, however.

If you look back at the past 4 years, drafting these types of players in the lottery has almost never worked out, especially in their first 2-3 years. The lone exception might be Jaylen Brown depending on how you feel about his game, but he has elite level athleticism and a incredible bball IQ defensively.

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Of the 3 i listed i actually like patrick williams the most.. i like his upside and fit with this team... i honestly don't like this draft class, it's not that good of a draft but i see tons of good roleplayers that still has the potential to be better. I don't mind getting the og anunoby type players to go along with our future core players.

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Originally Posted by PaKwAn

Of the 3 i listed i actually like patrick williams the most.. i like his upside and fit with this team... i honestly don't like this draft class, it's not that good of a draft but i see tons of good roleplayers that still has the potential to be better. I don't mind getting the og anunoby type players to go along with our future core players.

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Just don't lose sight of the fact that players more often than not will never develop a jumper if they didn't have one in college, especially not on their first contract/team. It took Anunoby 3 years to get up to 38% on over 3 attempts per game, and that's sort of an aberration. If we were picking solely for need, out of the 3 you mentioned, I'd go Vassell as long as their confident he can add a little extra bulk. Give me the guy who can already shoot.

Of the players expected to be available when the Pelicans will probably be picking, I keep coming back to one guy -- Aaron Nesmith. He can already play a little defense and he has shown he can shoot. I want someone that can help with defense and spacing and it doesn't hurt that he could slide in as backup to Ingram.

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Originally Posted by Mount Zion

Of the players expected to be available when the Pelicans will probably be picking, I keep coming back to one guy -- Aaron Nesmith. He can already play a little defense and he has shown he can shoot. I want someone that can help with defense and spacing and it doesn't hurt that he could slide in as backup to Ingram.

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Nesmith and Patrick Williams are my top two of the guys likely to be available around our pick. I think Vassell eventually had a good career for his 2nd or 3rd team but I think Nesmith and Williams have a chance at being great for their first team.

Guys who are solid to good across the board often turn out to have fine careers, but it's almost never for their first team

I was in on Nesmith until I watched the Okoro matchup, and now I'm so-so on his long term potential as a two way player. Okoro absolutely destroyed him consistently both in the post and off the dribble (I'm not super high on Okoro either). It was clear when matched up against NBA level athleticism and strength, he was a tier below. That was the only game all season that he played against decent competition, considering he went on to miss the rest of the season.

Then offensively his handle just wasn't tight enough to get around Okoro consistently to really make anything happen. He's a prolific shooter, undoubtedly, but I'm worried about his ability to find anything else offensively. I get the Klay Thompson comparisons (without the defense), though, if he goes to the right team. He's a walking microwave; but hes not going to create for others, as can be seen by his .52 AST on 26% usage. That guy has to already be on the team, and based on what I've seen after reviewing some film, I think he'd be a pretty good fit offensively next to BI and Jrue. Plus, he'd demand some of the most gravity on the team almost immediately, which would help free up Zion.

I think he'd be best suited for the Etwaun Moore/Frank Jackson role year one. Basically not asked to do anything on ball, just knock down the open shots and cut from time to time.

It should be noted that he was a part of quite possibly the worst team in SEC history last season, but its fair to say that losing Garland played a key role in that. Those two would've been a lot of fun to watch.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Nesmith and Patrick Williams are my top two of the guys likely to be available around our pick. I think Vassell eventually had a good career for his 2nd or 3rd team but I think Nesmith and Williams have a chance at being great for their first team.

Guys who are solid to good across the board often turn out to have fine careers, but it's almost never for their first team

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Do you think most NBA teams look at college players in that light. That rarely happens in the NFL but in the NBA, all of the time. It drives me crazy when a former Pelican/Hornet magically becomes great with his third team. Or maybe I am just too sensitive. Just another dynamic to think about I guess.

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Originally Posted by WildlifeAirGrp

Do you think most NBA teams look at college players in that light. That rarely happens in the NFL but in the NBA, all of the time. It drives me crazy when a former Pelican/Hornet magically becomes great with his third team. Or maybe I am just too sensitive. Just another dynamic to think about I guess.

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No -- I think most teams think of the draft completely wrong and its why teams have about a 15% success rate with picks 3-20. They think of current need and think of what the player will be. But dont realize that it likely wont be for the team who drafted them.

Go look around the league at every guy you consider a good role player. Then, tell me how many are on the team that drafted them. Almost none. And that is for a variety of different reasons, but the point of the story is that if you are saying to yourself "I like this guy. He fits a need for this roster and I can see him being a solid role player for us.... DONT TAKE HIM. History says he might become that, but for some other team and you just spent time and resources developing a guy to help your opponent

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Originally Posted by WildlifeAirGrp

Do you think most NBA teams look at college players in that light. That rarely happens in the NFL but in the NBA, all of the time. It drives me crazy when a former Pelican/Hornet magically becomes great with his third team. Or maybe I am just too sensitive. Just another dynamic to think about I guess.

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I also think a huge problem in the NBA is job security of high management. Most GMs picking in the lottery don't have the luxury to miss on a prospect, and ownership wants a guy they can sell to fans in year 1. This is one of the reasons you see guys with lower ceilings but higher floors get picked over the super high ceiling guys. You know that the guy who is good at everything but a master of none will not bust out.

This is why you see the same teams consistently miss in the draft year after yeas. The GMs change but the pressure from ownership stays the same, and then Willie Cauley-Stein and Frank Kaminsky get taken over Myles Turner and Devin Booker.

This could be a really, really rough year for rookie production. Not only is the class down on talent, but almost no preparation or adjustment period. https://t.co/yAp93IlY2n

— Ross Homan (@Ross_homan1) June 20, 2020

Worth noting this when next season eventually happens.

Rookies next year may look dreadful, and it won't entirely be due to the low talent level. Obviously that may play into it, but the circumstances are not in their favour.

I hope we either get the last seed in the playoffs to play the Lakers or get a top 13 pick.

I would take any of Anthony Edwards, Obi Toppin, LeMelo Ball, James Wiseman, Killian Hayes, Devin Vassell, Tyrese Haliburton, Onyeka Okongwu, Deni Avdija, Isaac Okoro, Cole Anthony, RJ Hampton, or Saddiq Bey. I would be down with any of those guys, but a shooting guard or wing would probably be the best pick. We could use a backup point guard or big man though, so the BPA will be fine with me.

I’d like a trade down. Grab Riller with one pick and Stanley (to send overseas like DiDi) with other. All the seconds grab potential and send to Europe or Australia. Nwora and Nnaji or watford. Would be some nice development types to either G League or 2-way contracts.

I think a good backup pg is really needed. Riller could lead our bench with DiDi, Hart, Hayes, and Melli.

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Originally Posted by tdcreator

I’d like a trade down. Grab Riller with one pick and Stanley (to send overseas like DiDi) with other. All the seconds grab potential and send to Europe or Australia. Nwora and Nnaji or watford. Would be some nice development types to either G League or 2-way contracts.

I think a good backup pg is really needed. Riller could lead our bench with DiDi, Hart, Hayes, and Melli.

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Take a look at any draft --- go pick any one. You will find somewhere between 6-9 guys in the ENTIRE draft that have an impact for the team who drafts them. In some drafts it is less. It is rarely more.

So, the argument to trade down and get more picks and/or grab a bunch of guys to put in the developmental pipeline just doesnt jive with the past. If anything, you should go the other way and identify the one guy you really, really believe in and be aggressive and go and get him. Or trade out of the draft -- either for a young vet more likely to help your team than any pick you make or trade picks this year for picks in future years that can be valuable in future years.

The draft is always exciting, full of potential and guys who can be anything in the league. But all you need to do is look back at history and you will see that most of the guys drafted will do as little (or less) for the team that drafts them as an average guy signed for the minimum salary

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Take a look at any draft --- go pick any one. You will find somewhere between 6-9 guys in the ENTIRE draft that have an impact for the team who drafts them. In some drafts it is less. It is rarely more.

So, the argument to trade down and get more picks and/or grab a bunch of guys to put in the developmental pipeline just doesnt jive with the past. If anything, you should go the other way and identify the one guy you really, really believe in and be aggressive and go and get him. Or trade out of the draft -- either for a young vet more likely to help your team than any pick you make or trade picks this year for picks in future years that can be valuable in future years.

The draft is always exciting, full of potential and guys who can be anything in the league. But all you need to do is look back at history and you will see that most of the guys drafted will do as little (or less) for the team that drafts them as an average guy signed for the minimum salary

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There are a couple reasons I’d trade down. 1 is to grab guys who will develop and potentially be our bench players. Soon we’ll be top heavy with contracts and we’ll need cheap deals and 2, if they develop enough they could be trade bait. I understand your point and agree somewhat. I think both strategies can be used at the same time, same as coaching to players strengths.

On point 1, after next year we could have Zo at 20 mil, Ingram at 25 mil, Jrue at 25-27 mil, Zion at 10+, and maybe Hart at 10+. We’d have over 90 mil in contracts and need some good salaries.

On point 2 if they develop, we need to trade or resign them. We can’t let them get away for nothing like Dell did. That was the only thing I really hated about him is he wouldn’t trade anyone. Ryno, Tyreke, and Gordon plus a number of lower bench guys could have gotten you something and instead we got zilch. So hopefully Grif and Langdon work that end better.

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Originally Posted by tdcreator

There are a couple reasons I’d trade down. 1 is to grab guys who will develop and potentially be our bench players. Soon we’ll be top heavy with contracts and we’ll need cheap deals and 2, if they develop enough they could be trade bait. I understand your point and agree somewhat. I think both strategies can be used at the same time, same as coaching to players strengths.

On point 1, after next year we could have Zo at 20 mil, Ingram at 25 mil, Jrue at 25-27 mil, Zion at 10+, and maybe Hart at 10+. We’d have over 90 mil in contracts and need some good salaries.

On point 2 if they develop, we need to trade or resign them. We can’t let them get away for nothing like Dell did. That was the only thing I really hated about him is he wouldn’t trade anyone. Ryno, Tyreke, and Gordon plus a number of lower bench guys could have gotten you something and instead we got zilch. So hopefully Grif and Langdon work that end better.

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Look, IN THEORY, I totally agree with you and I get the need to keep staggering in cheap bodies. But you actually need to hit on those guys and have them be more valuable than guys you can get on the minimum market for that to actually matter. Lets pick a random year and see how many guys gave the teams that drafted them above replacement value. Also, I will only do picks 8 and later, since the top 7 get paid substantially more than a min player and our pick wont fall in that range any way. Lets do 2014.

Here's the list

#12- Dario Saric: Was slightly above avg, but more importantly he had some trade value and got them a substantial piece
#13 Zach Lavine: Also didnt really do much for the team who drafted him on the court, but also was a major piece in getting Jimmy Butler
#19 Gary Harris: First guy who has had a good career on the court for the team who drafted him
#25 Clint Capela: Good run for Houston
#30 Kyle Anderson: Kinda okay for SA
#41 Nikola Jokic: Obviously the home run of this draft

That is the list. Draft was 6 years ago and of all the picks 8-60, Jokic and Gary Harris are the only guys still on the teams that drafted them who really are doing anything. A few of the other guys were traded for something decent. And I threw Kyle Anderson in there just to be nice. But in reality, picks 8-60, only 5 guys really gave the team that drafted them any real value.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Or trade out of the draft -- either for a young vet more likely to help your team than any pick you make or trade picks this year for picks in future years that can be valuable in future years.

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Any young vets you think could be had with our pick that would help the team? Trading for future picks may not be a bad idea either.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Look, IN THEORY, I totally agree with you and I get the need to keep staggering in cheap bodies. But you actually need to hit on those guys and have them be more valuable than guys you can get on the minimum market for that to actually matter. Lets pick a random year and see how many guys gave the teams that drafted them above replacement value. Also, I will only do picks 8 and later, since the top 7 get paid substantially more than a min player and our pick wont fall in that range any way. Lets do 2014.

Here's the list

#12- Dario Saric: Was slightly above avg, but more importantly he had some trade value and got them a substantial piece
#13 Zach Lavine: Also didnt really do much for the team who drafted him on the court, but also was a major piece in getting Jimmy Butler
#19 Gary Harris: First guy who has had a good career on the court for the team who drafted him
#25 Clint Capela: Good run for Houston
#30 Kyle Anderson: Kinda okay for SA
#41 Nikola Jokic: Obviously the home run of this draft

That is the list. Draft was 6 years ago and of all the picks 8-60, Jokic and Gary Harris are the only guys still on the teams that drafted them who really are doing anything. A few of the other guys were traded for something decent. And I threw Kyle Anderson in there just to be nice. But in reality, picks 8-60, only 5 guys really gave the team that drafted them any real value.

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Denver is great at drafting? Or development?

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Originally Posted by AusPel

Denver is great at drafting? Or development?

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Its a mixed bag. Remember, they also gave away both Gobert and Donovon Mitchell, basically. Moved back off of Mitchell for Trey freaking Lyles.

But they had some success and also gave those guys the minutes to develop. Also had some luck like Murray falling to them at 7 when he was clearly a top 4 or 5 guy in that draft. Could have easily ended up with Bender or Dunn instead.

But yeah, they are better than most at both things

Nobody’s going to want to trade next years picks. It’ll have high school seniors and some potentially good ones so it should be a deep draft as well.

MM, I do see your point but we need players to trade and with the year of chaos and short off season I don’t see a lot of player movement. I’d guess the next trade deadline will be exciting and having players available will help. I’ve been a big Beal fan so I’m hoping NAW, DiDi, and some of our picks along with a few draft picks will help.

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Originally Posted by tdcreator

Nobody’s going to want to trade next years picks. It’ll have high school seniors and some potentially good ones so it should be a deep draft as well.

MM, I do see your point but we need players to trade and with the year of chaos and short off season I don’t see a lot of player movement. I’d guess the next trade deadline will be exciting and having players available will help. I’ve been a big Beal fan so I’m hoping NAW, DiDi, and some of our picks along with a few draft picks will help.

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I wouldnt be looking to trade this years pick for picks in 2021. I'd be looking a few years further out and I bet someone would be willing to do top 8 or 10 protections on a 2024 first for the 12th/13th this year. My thinking is that the Pels best chance to become a dynasty is to land Booker or Jonathan Issac - or someone of that age and caliber in a few years. And to do that, you will need to throw a bunch of picks at the team.

Future picks will almost always be more valuable than a guy in year 2 of his contract. Look at the 2018 draft -- how many guys would be worth more than say a top 10 protected 2022 or 2023 1st? Luka, Trae, SGA, Ayton, Porter. Maybe Mitchell Robinson, but probably not. So, one or maybe two guys who were taken 12 or later.

I want the war chest as big as possible for when Booker, Issac, KAT, etc come available. Adding one more stud to the core and we can start talking titles.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

I wouldnt be looking to trade this years pick for picks in 2021. I'd be looking a few years further out and I bet someone would be willing to do top 8 or 10 protections on a 2024 first for the 12th/13th this year. My thinking is that the Pels best chance to become a dynasty is to land Booker or Jonathan Issac - or someone of that age and caliber in a few years. And to do that, you will need to throw a bunch of picks at the team.

Future picks will almost always be more valuable than a guy in year 2 of his contract. Look at the 2018 draft -- how many guys would be worth more than say a top 10 protected 2022 or 2023 1st? Luka, Trae, SGA, Ayton, Porter. Maybe Mitchell Robinson, but probably not. So, one or maybe two guys who were taken 12 or later.

I want the war chest as big as possible for when Booker, Issac, KAT, etc come available. Adding one more stud to the core and we can start talking titles.

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And if there are no good offers, I make the pick but I am only swinging big. I am not thinking about position for my team at all - because again, history says this guy will likely not be on my team long term.

I swing big and project forward as to what this guys value could be on the trade market if he shows flashes. And when you think of it that way, taking a pure 5 is dumb. A pure point is dumb. You want positional versatility with offensive upside. And offensive upside comes from one of two places - elite athletic/body traits or elite skills. I am never taking a guy like Vassel who has a good body/athleticism but not elite. And who is a solid set of skills but not elite nor does he project at being elite at shooting off dribble, passing, etc.

Swing big, assuming you will be trading this guy in 18 to 30 months and project his value if he shows flashes

Elite size/athleticism? Someone you are drafting assuming you won't keep them long term? Might Kira Lewis fit the bill? Pity he's so lithe. But he's uncommonly quick and fast. But not explosive off the ground like the truly elite points.

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Originally Posted by Eman5805

Elite size/athleticism? Someone you are drafting assuming you won't keep them long term? Might Kira Lewis fit the bill? Pity he's so lithe. But he's uncommonly quick and fast. But not explosive off the ground like the truly elite points.

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There are a lot of big fans of his around the league. I will admit that I don't see it but he does have some physical traits that can have him fit the bill.

I think if he hits his ceiling, he is modern Tony Parker with more size and D. So, its a guy I would consider. Over say Maxey, who I could see being a good role player but I can't see the universe in which he is ever an All Star

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

There are a lot of big fans of his around the league. I will admit that I don't see it but he does have some physical traits that can have him fit the bill.

I think if he hits his ceiling, he is modern Tony Parker with more size and D. So, its a guy I would consider. Over say Maxey, who I could see being a good role player but I can't see the universe in which he is ever an All Star

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The guy I think might be that could go as early as 15 and as late as 25. Aleksej Pokusevski

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Originally Posted by Silver Nail

The guy I think might be that could go as early as 15 and as late as 25. Aleksej Pokusevski

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This is complete conjecture, but I don't know how you could look at Pok and think he will ever add the requisite muscle required to guard bigs. He is so so thin and his frame just does not give me any hope he can gain weight. I think we're already frustrated with Ingram and Zion as a 4/5 pairing on the defensive end, adding Pok would be a complete nightmare.

I'm all for combining all of our picks in this years draft to move up and grab their top target. I get that you want to have guys on rookie contracts, etc., but the Pels already have a ton of future picks in their bag. There's no reason to add four guys this year. You can only efficiently develop so many guys at one time, so it may not make sense for the Pels to make any picks this year.

Think of it like 2k in which all these players need to be developed, but you only have so many hours you can allot, with added emphasis on a severely shortened offseason. BI, Lonzo, Zion, Jax, NAW, and Didi all have a ton of development left. We all love Fred Vinson on here, but he only has so much time in the day. If he pulled all nighters for 2 months straight, there's still going to be a few of these guys that just don't get enough attention this summer.

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Originally Posted by pelafanatic

This is complete conjecture, but I don't know how you could look at Pok and think he will ever add the requisite muscle required to guard bigs. He is so so thin and his frame just does not give me any hope he can gain weight. I think we're already frustrated with Ingram and Zion as a 4/5 pairing on the defensive end, adding Pok would be a complete nightmare.

I'm all for combining all of our picks in this years draft to move up and grab their top target. I get that you want to have guys on rookie contracts, etc., but the Pels already have a ton of future picks in their bag. There's no reason to add four guys this year. You can only efficiently develop so many guys at one time, so it may not make sense for the Pels to make any picks this year.

Think of it like 2k in which all these players need to be developed, but you only have so many hours you can allot, with added emphasis on a severely shortened offseason. BI, Lonzo, Zion, Jax, NAW, and Didi all have a ton of development left. We all love Fred Vinson on here, but he only has so much time in the day. If he pulled all nighters for 2 months straight, there's still going to be a few of these guys that just don't get enough attention this summer.

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I believe he can add 30 lbs in a couple of years and be a real factor going forward. Like him more than Jax.

If you take Pok, you don't do it so he can guard bigs. You do it to add skill and force teams to play to you. Ingram, Zion, and Pok are the finishing front line, and no - none of them can guard Embiid in the post. But he couldn't guard any of those three either (the evolved version of those 3)

If the Pels get another guy skilled enough, its the death lineup Warriors where teams get destroyed if they try to play a conventional center. Or that guy puts up huge numbers like AD vs Warriors but it doesn't matter

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Originally Posted by Silver Nail

I believe he can add 30 lbs in a couple of years and be a real factor going forward. Like him more than Jax.

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See I think Jax is probably a top 4 pick in this draft. He'd be right there with Okongwu as the first big off the board. With that being said, I'm not sold yet on Jax being a part of this core. I think he definitely has a future in the league, but he needs to get close to his ceiling as a defender to be a fit next to Zion and BI.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

If you take Pok, you don't do it so he can guard bigs. You do it to add skill and force teams to play to you. Ingram, Zion, and Pok are the finishing front line, and no - none of them can guard Embiid in the post. But he couldn't guard any of those three either (the evolved version of those 3)

If the Pels get another guy skilled enough, its the death lineup Warriors where teams get destroyed if they try to play a conventional center. Or that guy puts up huge numbers like AD vs Warriors but it doesn't matter

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But a major key to that death lineup was Draymond was the greatest help defender of all time, and Klay and Iggy were so good guarding the perimeter that it was nearly impossible to even get to Draymond. This could very well change, but Zion has not shown the defensive awareness yet for me to think he plays the Draymond role, and he doesn't really have the lateral quickness to guard efficiently on the perimeter. KD and Steph were really smart defenders as well.

The defensive IQ is lacking for the Pels right now in the young guys, which is why that unit was so much better when Favors was on the floor. Now if you inject Jonathan Isaac into that unit we'd be speaking the same language.

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Originally Posted by pelafanatic

But a major key to that death lineup was Draymond was the greatest help defender of all time, and Klay and Iggy were so good guarding the perimeter that it was nearly impossible to even get to Draymond. This could very well change, but Zion has not shown the defensive awareness yet for me to think he plays the Draymond role, and he doesn't really have the lateral quickness to guard efficiently on the perimeter. KD and Steph were really smart defenders as well.

The defensive IQ is lacking for the Pels right now in the young guys, which is why that unit was so much better when Favors was on the floor. Now if you inject Jonathan Isaac into that unit we'd be speaking the same language.

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Isaac nearly 4 yrs older then Pok. Apples and Oranges.

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Originally Posted by Silver Nail

Isaac nearly 4 yrs older then Pok. Apples and Oranges.

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This is worth noting when it comes to Pokusevski: very very young player. Most of the footage we have of him comes from when he was still 17, because his birthday (if I remember rightly) is in the December. He's nearly as young as it is possible to be for someone who qualifies for this draft. For example, he's a few little over 4 months younger than LaMelo. He's 2 years and 3 months younger than Precious Achiuwa. A year and 7 months younger than Cole Anthony. 3 years and 10 months younger than Tyler Bey. 3 years 10 months as well for Obi Toppin.

So that has to be factored in. You can argue that as a strength or a weakness, I don't really care which side you take, but it's something that has to be considered. Maybe you feel like, because of his youth and the fact that he's probably a few years away from major impact, that we'd be better off drafting someone older who theoretically should be better sooner. Maybe you think the fact that he's so young is great because it gives us a chance to really control his development and, despite being a few years away, he'll still be young when that process has happened. Either way, you have to account for it.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

If you take Pok, you don't do it so he can guard bigs. You do it to add skill and force teams to play to you. Ingram, Zion, and Pok are the finishing front line, and no - none of them can guard Embiid in the post. But he couldn't guard any of those three either (the evolved version of those 3)

If the Pels get another guy skilled enough, its the death lineup Warriors where teams get destroyed if they try to play a conventional center. Or that guy puts up huge numbers like AD vs Warriors but it doesn't matter

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Agreed here. If you draft Pokusevski, you appreciate his defensive potential (which I think is high, if he hits every ceiling), and it definitely serves as a bonus, but you recognise his limitations there based on frame and weight and such. The reason you draft him anyway is that he's basically 7 feet tall with advanced handle and passing skills, who has shown some signs of a pull up shooting threat, and that combination of skills and body type is rare and highly valuable.

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Originally Posted by Silver Nail

Isaac nearly 4 yrs older then Pok. Apples and Oranges.

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Isaac is already an elite defender. Pok would have to hit his ceiling to reach Isaac's level defensively. I think the point Mac has been making is that the chances of that happening for the team who drafts him are extremely slim. The jump in athleticism from the Greek league to the NBA is brutal.

Pok's Greek coach said that hes at least 2-3 years away from being an NBA player. On that timeline, best case scenario you get 2 years of Pok on his rookie deal before having to decide on his future. He's going to be a negative value player for the next 2 years. I personally don't think he fits the timeline.

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Originally Posted by pelafanatic

Isaac is already an elite defender. Pok would have to hit his ceiling to reach Isaac's level defensively. I think the point Mac has been making is that the chances of that happening for the team who drafts him are extremely slim. The jump in athleticism from the Greek league to the NBA is brutal.

Pok's Greek coach said that hes at least 2-3 years away from being an NBA player. On that timeline, best case scenario you get 2 years of Pok on his rookie deal before having to decide on his future. He's going to be a negative value player for the next 2 years. I personally don't think he fits the timeline.

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That's fine, if you don't see value here. I do. With our 4 picks and a little creative dealing by Griff and company we can land Poku and Tillie giving us a today guy and future.

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Originally Posted by Silver Nail

That's fine, if you don't see value here. I do. With our 4 picks and a little creative dealing by Griff and company we can land Poku and Tillie giving us a today guy and future.

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I still love Tillie for us. He just fits in so well, and I think if you take all of the players in that none-lottery area (according to mainstream media anyway) he's the most likely to be an actually successful NBA player, and relatively soon as well. Sort of like how Brandon Clarke was just immediately very very good and impactful for Memphis this year.

Obviously the injury concerns are real, so I get that detraction, but really like him as a player. 6'11 guys who can really shoot, pass, dribble, and play defense are extremely valuable.