Game Thread: Bulls @ Pelicans

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Asteptooslow

We HAVE to get EG some confidence back or we are screwed. With guys off the bench you hope, but with him we need him to be productive. I think we should bring him off the bench and let him watch for a bit and then come in. That can work for a guy sometimes.

---

The thing is people do need to look past the box score. He was directly responsible for 6 of our first 10 points with his passing and distributing.

While Evans was looking to score Gordon was facilitating and dishing.

In two quarters we didn't run single play designed to get Gordon an open three. Thats criminal from a coaching perspective to me. Utterly criminal.

Thankfully 3 minutes into the second half the team ran its first (and unfortunately only) play that was clearly designed to get Gordon an open three and he knocked it down. Why aren't we running more plays like that one?

Gordon always plays well off the ball, within the flow of the offense, as a distributor and he is being asked to guard the best opposing guard of the other team each night.

I think Monty and this team need to maximize his greatest strength. His catch and shoot ability. At least 3-4 times a game we need to be running plays that are designed primarily to get Gordon a catch and shoot look from 3. See if he can scale up his production in that role. Build his confidence through his greatest asset. The entire first half he was either spotting up, taking handoffs or setting screens for other players. Not a single play was set to get him an open look. All of his shots except one pass from AD were off runners and last second drives.

And players like Evans have got to recognize when Gordon's defender has left him to help defend his drives. I can pin point at least 2 times in the first half Evans drove into traffic and Gordon didn't have a person on him for a mile. In fact not once all first half did Evans(or anyone outside of Davis) even look to find Gordon on a catch and shoot.

A summary of Gordon's play by play offense the first three quarter.

When he took over the facilitating role for the first time at the last minute mark he immediately drove and drew in a defender and got a wide open look for Ajinca. He started the second with a good drive and didn't get the foul call on what was probably the most blatant one of the night. Then he followed that up by getting Pondexter his most open look of the night from three. Then a nice look for Ryno.

At this point we were up by three. Gordon left the game with zero catch and shoot plays ran for him. Evans came in for him and the flow all but stopped. Evans drives and missed, gave up three to Snell and then dribbled around and dumped it down to Ryno that forced him into his low percentage post step back game that thankfully drew a foul. Then Evans got the charge call driving into three defenders. Then Evans gave up points to Rose to put the Bulls up. Evans first real good pass that wasn't to AD came at 6:54 in the second on a pass to Pondexter at the three who hesitated and had to give it back up. Then Jimmer for some reason became the primary distributor on offense. It was a move that Monty never sought to change until the last 3 minutes of the game when Gordon came in for him. I have to assume it had to do with how poorly Evans was playing as PG.

Gordon came back in and immediately found Asik for that open lane dunk and put us back up by one. Gordon got what should have been a secondary assist the following possession when he passed to Cunningham the next play who then immediately hit Asik who put the ball in a wedge on the rim for that jump ball. 2 plays later a Gordon hit a cutting Ryno for a perfect pass that he couldn't put in the basket and was likely fouled. Then he made a bad drive into three defenders into a clogged paint when he had an outlet to Cunningham who could of took the shot or passed to Evans who was also unguarded.


Second half:

Was relegated to standing around the first couple possessions then used as a last minute outlet that resulted in a bad long two that he usually avoids like the plague. then he got his first and only designed catch and shoot ply and nailed it.

The next few possessions he was involved very little until the Monty timeout down by 18 where he drove the ball and drew in defenders and passed to an open Cunningham who missed.

Had a last second drive where he just couldn't lay in the open look at the rim.

Evans then just ignored open shooters and drove into traffic and chucked it up.

Next possession Gordon missed a wide open 15 footer that he should of nailed.

From there Gordon was pretty much a ghost. Not looked for, not confident. The team had basically given up

All in all I think this is a classic beginning of the year game for Gordon. He did everything you want except hitting his shots. He wasn't being put into good shooting opportunities so it compounded the problem of his slow start. Which gives most people the perception he played awful tonight. Which overall he didnt. It wasn't an A+ performance but the stuff he did: distributing, off-ball play, hustling, setting up players - at least gets him a B in my book but him missing his shots drags it down to a C performance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by speedyG

Tyreke played 40 minutes yesterday and was visibly tired. He wasn't even trying to attack most of the game, just handing the ball off and standing around

We were never going to win this game once Davis went down, it was a stretch to begin with

---

Everyone was on a back to back. Gordon was stuck playing D on Westbrook. Davis played just as many minutes. That doesnt really excuse the mindset switch he played with tonight.

Evans killed offensive flow tonight starting this game. Then again when he came back in the second quarter. Re-watch it if you need to. He started the game off trying to be an attack dog and the only other player he was really getting involved was Davis. Then he came back in the second and made a series of poor offensive and defensive plays.

He needs to quit this bi-polar stuff.

If you want to be an attack dog, be an attack dog and we can bring you off the bench. If he wants to make a case to be the primary distributor and start with Gordon and Jrue then he needs to embrace that role. Even last night he reverted to bad habits at critical points and he needs to clean that up even on the nights he is being good Tyreke.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

Everyone was on a back to back. Gordon was stuck playing D on Westbrook. Davis played just as many minutes. That doesnt really excuse the mindset switch he played with tonight.

Evans killed offensive flow tonight starting this game. Re-watch it if you need to. He started the game off trying to be an attack dog and the only other player he was really getting involved was Davis. He needs to quit this bi-polar stuff. If you want to be an attack dog, be an attack dog and we can bring you off the bench. If he wants to make a case to be the primary distributor and start with Gordon and Jrue then he needs to embrace that role. Even last night he reverted to bad habits at critical points and he needs to clean that up even on the nights he is being good Tyreke.

---

He isn't making a case to be the primary distributor, he is stepping in for the primary distributor. This is why he isn't our pg, Jrue is our pg. Jrue is hurt. Unless you want to start Jimmer, Tyreke is the next best thing we got. He may not have had a good game, but he probably had the 2nd or 3rd best game for a Pelican tonight. You can't blame him for Gordon's struggles, 1 for 10 speaks for itself. Gordon only played 27 minutes against OKC.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jgman

He isn't making a case to be the primary distributor, he is stepping in for the primary distributor. This is why he isn't our pg, Jrue is our pg. Jrue is hurt. Unless you want to start Jimmer, Tyreke is the next best thing we got. He may not have had a good game, but he probably had the 2nd or 3rd best game for a Pelican tonight. You can't blame him for Gordon's struggles, 1 for 10 speaks for itself. Gordon only played 27 minutes against OKC.

---

So his job right now is to be a distributor is it not? So how do you expect to win when that guy is doing everything but what he is being asked to do? Evans can't go one game making the team think he is going to be looking for everyone and be our guy at point while Jrue is out then turn around the next and just ignore that job completely for an entire half of basketball like he did for the most part tonight. Especially in an offensive system like Monty's that seemingly puts an emphasis on ball movement.

As for my point about Evans starting with Jrue and Gordon when Jrue comes back. My point is that if he is just going to play like he did tonight he should not be starting or finishing games for this team. And I would not want him as a long term starting 2 guard. Like i have said the past couple games, hopefully these type of performances will become more and more outliers as he progresses as a player.

As for Gordon, I just made a write up on him. Needless to say you are wrong. He had a game reminiscent to his early games this season. He did everything you want but hit his shots. But that isn't something I am forgiving but it needs to be accounted for in evaluating him.

I hope AD will be well soon. That was one of the worst falls I have ever seen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

So his job right now is to be a distributor is it not? So how do you expect to win when that guy is doing everything but what he is being asked to do? Evans can't go one game making the team think he is going to be looking for everyone and be our guy at point while Jrue is out then turn around the next and just ignore that job completely for an entire half of basketball like he did for the most part tonight.

As for Gordon, I just made a write up on him. Needless to say you are wrong. He had a game reminiscent to his early games this season. He did everything you want but hit his shots. But that isn't something I am forgiving but it needs to be accounted for in evaluating him.

---

in the last 8 games Tyreke has 5 with double digit assists. He has the highest ast% of his career right now, January was 30.9 and so far in February it is 42.7. He is filling in because of NEED and performing extremely well considering that is not his job.

as for your write up on Gordon, I don't trust write ups that are based on making an excuse for a player on literally every single one of his bad plays and praises him for hitting a wide open players and getting secondary assists like it is impressive to pass to someone wide open or get a secondary assist in a blow out. YES Gordon had a game reminiscent of his early self, 1-10.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jgman

in the last 8 games Tyreke has 5 with double digit assists. He has the highest ast% of his career right now, January was 30.9 and so far in February it is 42.7. He is filling in because of NEED and performing extremely well considering that is not his job.

as for your write up on Gordon, I don't trust write ups that are based on making an excuse for a player on literally every single one of his bad plays and praises him for hitting a wide open players and getting secondary assists like it is impressive to pass to someone wide open or get a secondary assist in a blow out. YES Gordon had a game reminiscent of his early self, 1-10.

---

You can address the points I made or talk past me. You seem to be choosing the latter. Re-read what I wrote. I am not questioning Evans last games where he mostly played great. I had plenty of praise for his play since Jrue went down. I am questioning his consistency on executing his role and his continual lapses of low IQ basketball that are a detriment to this team.

As for gordon, believe what you want. If you are calling his assists and facilitation this game as something he had no role on. Clearly you didn't watch the game or weren't paying attention(your framing of Gordon's assists shows you clearly didn't watch his play closely) If your best argument against my evaluation of gordon is to fall back on the box score and try and call an evaluation an excuse. That's your prerogative. I said gordon had a C game.

His off ball play and facilitation was a B+ to me. His shot selection was about a B-. Defense a C. But the fact he missed 9 out of 10 drags his overall grade down to a C. Hardly making excuses. But since I don't think you are actually trying to engage in a conversation and instead are just trying to defend Evans and bash Gordon, this is going to be lost on you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

You can address the points I made or talk past me. You seem to be choosing the latter. Re-read what I wrote. I am not questioning Evans last games where he mostly played great. I had plenty of praise for his play since Jrue went down. I am questioning his consistency on executing his role and his continual lapses of low IQ basketball that are a detriment to this team.

As for gordon, believe what you want. If you are calling his assists and facilitation this game as something he had no role on. Clearly you didn't watch the game or weren't paying attention(your framing of Gordon's assists shows you clearly didn't watch his play closely) If your best argument against my evaluation of gordon is to fall back on the box score and try and call an evaluation an excuse. That's your prerogative. I said gordon had a C game.

His off ball play and facilitation was a B+ to me. His shot selection was about a B-. Defense a C. But the fact he missed 9 out of 10 drags his overall grade down to a C. Hardly making excuses. But since I don't think you are actually trying to engage in a conversation and instead are just trying to defend Evans and bash Gordon, this is going to be lost on you.

---

Question all you want about what Tyreke is doing but he isn't being paid to be the second best player on the team, which he is at the moment. Gordon is getting paid like the second or third best player on the team. He should be consistently trying to earn that salary. He is not earning his keep right now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sleeper

Question all you want about what Tyreke is doing but he isn't being paid to be the second best player on the team, which he is at the moment. Gordon is getting paid like the second or third best player on the team. He should be consistently trying to earn that salary. He is not earning his keep right now.

---

I'm not even sure why I'm bothering with these deflectionary responses anymore....


His role at full health is to be the 3 and D guy, the 3rd or 4th offensive option of the starters and the 4th or 5th offensive option overall.

At our current health he is being asked to bump his role up one level with Jrues absence. With Rynos inconsistent play I would argue he should probably be bumped above him as well but that is a different discussion.

He is never going to live up to his contract. That should be a basic truth everyone accepts right now. His performances should be evaluated based on his role on the team and if he is being effectively used in that role. Which is what I did. Which is how I judged Evans.

If we are talking about evaluating him from a GM's perspective, then yeah, he is living up to his contract much worse the Evans is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

I'm not even sure why I'm bothering with these deflectionary responses anymore....


His role at full health is to be the 3 and D guy, the 3rd or 4th offensive option of the starters and the 4th or 5th offensive option overall.

At our current health he is being asked to bump his role up one level with Jrues absence. With Rynos inconsistent play I would argue he should probably be bumped above him as well but that is a different discussion.

He is never going to live up to his contract. That should be a basic truth everyone accepts right now. His performances should be evaluated based on his role on the team and if he is being effectively used in that role. Which is what I did. Which is how I judged Evans.

If we are talking about evaluating him from a GM's perspective, then yeah, he is living up to his contract much worse the Evans is.

---

Fans perspective here but it appears Evans was brought in to be our slasher and facilitator to Ad. He is doing both at a high level. I bring up the contract because i think he is playing above and beyond what he is was brought in for. Gordon is not.

Quote:

---

Especially in an offensive system like Monty's that seemingly puts an emphasis on ball movement.

---

well thats wrong, we are 2nd to last in the league in touches per game, and 2nd to last in the league in passes per game. Does that sounds like a team that moves the ball?

Quote:

---

As for my point about Evans starting with Jrue and Gordon when Jrue comes back. My point is that if he is just going to play like he did tonight he should not be starting or finishing games for this team. And I would not want him as a long term starting 2 guard. Like i have said the past couple games, hopefully these type of performances will become more and more outliers as he progresses as a player.

---

Quote:

---

As for Gordon, I just made a write up on him. Needless to say you are wrong. He had a game reminiscent to his early games this season. He did everything you want but hit his shots. But that isn't something I am forgiving but it needs to be accounted for in evaluating him.

---

Tyreke WAS coming off the bench before Jrue got hurt, and he definitely should be finishing games for this team. you make it seem like this game is the norm which it hasn't been, and I don't think he played as poorly as you think he did. You say look past the box score and explain how gordon was playing well just not hitting his shots, ok, but then you have to give Tyreke credit because even tho he wasn't exactly playing that well, at least he was hitting his shots.

Quote:

---

I am questioning his consistency on executing his role and his continual lapses of low IQ basketball that are a detriment to this team.

---

yes I get that, he does have a low bball IQ at times it is one of his negatives, and his negatives obviously hurt us. I would say the same thing about Gordon's inability to score consistently, and I think that has been a bigger issue than Tyreke's lapses. I don't think it is any coincidence that our best streak of games comes when Gordon starts carrying his weight a little bit.

Quote:

---

Evans killed offensive flow tonight starting this game. Then again when he came back in the second quarter. Re-watch it if you need to

---

Quote:

---

He was directly responsible for 6 of our first 10 points with his passing and distributing.

---

Actually I did re-watch it, and I fail to see how Evans killed the offensive flow to start the game. I honestly just don't see it. You say Gordon was directly responsible for 6 of our first 10, but then I see Tyreke score 8 of our first 14, and started 4/5 shooting before Davis went out. He had a couple bad possessions, but overall he wasn't as bad as you are making him out to be, he was scoring efficiently. Gordon distributed well to start yea, the team was winning before Davis went out, once he did we need the rest of the team to step up, Gordon produced 3 points and 1 assist after Davis went out thats the bottom line.

Davis left with the score tied 35-35, that is when Gordon comes into the game before the half, and we go on a 4-13 run. Here are some things I see on our bad run: Gordon to Asik pass gets loose results in a broken play, finds its way to Tyreke with only 3 left on the clock and no where to go. A good set up by Gordon for Asik dunk. Asik wedgie. I see Gordon get torched by Butler. Anderson miss a wide open 3. My least favorite part of the night Derrick rose pull up 3 good followed by a good pass Gordon to Anderson with a missed foul call on the dunk attempt leads to a blown foul call for Rose FTs. Then I see Eric Gordon miss a contested lay up, then Tyreke make a contested lay up (now 6/8 on the night). I see Rose blow by Gordon easily and score over Anderson. Then a bad end of the half iso for Evans. 48-39.

With your leading scorer out, who steps up? Gordon 1st half 0pts 0/5 a couple of assists and bad D, Anderson 2 pts a couple rebounds, Tyreke 12pts 6/8 a couple boards and apparently offense killer.

The league needs to look at that play where Davis was injured.
I have watched it a few times now and I think that Snell drew just enough contact with Davis.
Accidental or not I think they need to have a hard look at it.

It reminded me of Bogut all over again.
Thank God he didn't break anything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

The thing is people do need to look past the box score. He was directly responsible for 6 of our first 10 points with his passing and distributing.

While Evans was looking to score Gordon was facilitating and dishing.

In two quarters we didn't run single play designed to get Gordon an open three. Thats criminal from a coaching perspective to me. Utterly criminal.

Thankfully 3 minutes into the second half the team ran its first (and unfortunately only) play that was clearly designed to get Gordon an open three and he knocked it down. Why aren't we running more plays like that one?

Gordon always plays well off the ball, within the flow of the offense, as a distributor and he is being asked to guard the best opposing guard of the other team each night.

I think Monty and this team need to maximize his greatest strength. His catch and shoot ability. At least 3-4 times a game we need to be running plays that are designed primarily to get Gordon a catch and shoot look from 3. See if he can scale up his production in that role. Build his confidence through his greatest asset. The entire first half he was either spotting up, taking handoffs or setting screens for other players. Not a single play was set to get him an open look. All of his shots except one pass from AD were off runners and last second drives.

And players like Evans have got to recognize when Gordon's defender has left him to help defend his drives. I can pin point at least 2 times in the first half Evans drove into traffic and Gordon didn't have a person on him for a mile. In fact not once all first half did Evans(or anyone outside of Davis) even look to find Gordon on a catch and shoot.

A summary of Gordon's play by play offense the first three quarter.

When he took over the facilitating role for the first time at the last minute mark he immediately drove and drew in a defender and got a wide open look for Ajinca. He started the second with a good drive and didn't get the foul call on what was probably the most blatant one of the night. Then he followed that up by getting Pondexter his most open look of the night from three. Then a nice look for Ryno.

At this point we were up by three. Gordon left the game with zero catch and shoot plays ran for him. Evans came in for him and the flow all but stopped. Evans drives and missed, gave up three to Snell and then dribbled around and dumped it down to Ryno that forced him into his low percentage post step back game that thankfully drew a foul. Then Evans got the charge call driving into three defenders. Then Evans gave up points to Rose to put the Bulls up. Evans first real good pass that wasn't to AD came at 6:54 in the second on a pass to Pondexter at the three who hesitated and had to give it back up. Then Jimmer for some reason became the primary distributor on offense. It was a move that Monty never sought to change until the last 3 minutes of the game when Gordon came in for him. I have to assume it had to do with how poorly Evans was playing as PG.

Gordon came back in and immediately found Asik for that open lane dunk and put us back up by one. Gordon got what should have been a secondary assist the following possession when he passed to Cunningham the next play who then immediately hit Asik who put the ball in a wedge on the rim for that jump ball. 2 plays later a Gordon hit a cutting Ryno for a perfect pass that he couldn't put in the basket and was likely fouled. Then he made a bad drive into three defenders into a clogged paint when he had an outlet to Cunningham who could of took the shot or passed to Evans who was also unguarded.


Second half:

Was relegated to standing around the first couple possessions then used as a last minute outlet that resulted in a bad long two that he usually avoids like the plague. then he got his first and only designed catch and shoot ply and nailed it.

The next few possessions he was involved very little until the Monty timeout down by 18 where he drove the ball and drew in defenders and passed to an open Cunningham who missed.

Had a last second drive where he just couldn't lay in the open look at the rim.

Evans then just ignored open shooters and drove into traffic and chucked it up.

Next possession Gordon missed a wide open 15 footer that he should of nailed.

From there Gordon was pretty much a ghost. Not looked for, not confident. The team had basically given up

All in all I think this is a classic beginning of the year game for Gordon. He did everything you want except hitting his shots. He wasn't being put into good shooting opportunities so it compounded the problem of his slow start. Which gives most people the perception he played awful tonight. Which overall he didnt. It wasn't an A+ performance but the stuff he did: distributing, off-ball play, hustling, setting up players - at least gets him a B in my book but him missing his shots drags it down to a C performance.

---

He has been destroyed on Defense the last 3 games...it has to bother you. He is trying to contribute, but his confidence seems to be back to square 1 again. I hope playing a team like Utah will get him back on board, he can't keep getting down on himself so much. We need to run more offense and not base everything of drive and dish. Even when we have good ball movement and win, it isn't really from any plays we run. Those seem to be saved for end of game situations.

Hopefully, in the future we only lose AD after the games are over, because you so a collective "oh crap, what are we going to do" when he went down. It was very odd, but I'll try to give a bit of a pass since we just came off a mini-playoff series with OKC.

Also, I hate the plays where we bring our big guys up to the elbows and the guards give it to them there at the beginning of the shot clock. It takes time off the clock to run offense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jgman

well thats wrong, we are 2nd to last in the league in touches per game, and 2nd to last in the league in passes per game. Does that sounds like a team that moves the ball?

---

You understand ideal vs execution right?

Quote:

---

Tyreke WAS coming off the bench before Jrue got hurt, and he definitely should be finishing games for this team. you make it seem like this game is the norm which it hasn't been, and I don't think he played as poorly as you think he did. You say look past the box score and explain how gordon was playing well just not hitting his shots, ok, but then you have to give Tyreke credit because even tho he wasn't exactly playing that well, at least he was hitting his shots.

---

He has finished games poorly even during his stretch of greatness we have seen recently. And no, no I have not tried to downplay how well he has played. Search my post history if you would like. That doesnt excuse some of his low IQ decisions at critical times for this team recently.

And again you are missing the entire point of my post. Consistency in play style. All season it has been an issue. Tonight was probably the greatest example though. He goes from a streak of double digit assists to 3. Team orientated to me-first, get mine.

Quote:

---

yes I get that, he does have a low bball IQ at times it is one of his negatives, and his negatives obviously hurt us. I would say the same thing about Gordon's inability to score consistently, and I think that has been a bigger issue than Tyreke's lapses. I don't think it is any coincidence that our best streak of games comes when Gordon starts carrying his weight a little bit.

---

Since the Minny game on Nov 14 Gordon has been our most consistent scorer. What shouldn't be confused though is usage and result. Gordon has at times been ignored or saw it fit to pass rather then take a bad shot. He has unquestionably been our best and consistently smart offensive decision maker this season.

Quote:

---

Actually I did re-watch it, and I fail to see how Evans killed the offensive flow to start the game. I honestly just don't see it. You say Gordon was directly responsible for 6 of our first 10, but then I see Tyreke score 8 of our first 14, and started 4/5 shooting before Davis went out. He had a couple bad possessions, but overall he wasn't as bad as you are making him out to be, he was scoring efficiently. Gordon distributed well to start yea, the team was winning before Davis went out, once he did we need the rest of the team to step up, Gordon produced 3 points and 1 assist after Davis went out thats the bottom line.

Davis left with the score tied 35-35, that is when Gordon comes into the game before the half, and we go on a 4-13 run. Here are some things I see on our bad run: Gordon to Asik pass gets loose results in a broken play, finds its way to Tyreke with only 3 left on the clock and no where to go. A good set up by Gordon for Asik dunk. Asik wedgie. I see Gordon get torched by Butler. Anderson miss a wide open 3. My least favorite part of the night Derrick rose pull up 3 good followed by a good pass Gordon to Anderson with a missed foul call on the dunk attempt leads to a blown foul call for Rose FTs. Then I see Eric Gordon miss a contested lay up, then Tyreke make a contested lay up (now 6/8 on the night). I see Rose blow by Gordon easily and score over Anderson. Then a bad end of the half iso for Evans. 48-39.

With your leading scorer out, who steps up? Gordon 1st half 0pts 0/5 a couple of assists and bad D, Anderson 2 pts a couple rebounds, Tyreke 12pts 6/8 a couple boards and apparently offense killer.

---

Do you know when Evans got his first assist last night? 5 minutes left in the SECOND quarter on that lob to Davis. That is pathetic. That should not be happening from a guy being asked to be the primary facilitator. From a guy that has been quoted as saying he knows he is being asked to get others involved. From very early on Evans took on the role of attack dog and never turned back. If it wasn't a pass to Davis he went straight into tunnel vision. But it wasn't his first quarter play that bothered me, it was his second quarter play, where he pretty much just went full on tunnel vision. 90% of possessions where he was taking the lead of the offense and not handing off or dumping down he was looking to score unless it was absolutely impossible to do so. In possession like that ball movement stopped. He left the game at the end of the first and we finished up by three. He came back in and we were still up by 4. That was without Davis mind you. Davis going down likely cost us any chance but Evans made it that much harder by reverting to bad habits.



Gordon finished the first quarter with 3 assists, and also had 3 other attempted assists where his dribble penetration drew in defenders that gave Asik an open lane to the hoop on the first possession of the game that Asik missed and then got Davis and then Ajinca wide open looks through drawing in defenders. They hit those at a normal rate and Gordon is sitting at 5-6 assists in the first. He carried that over into the second, looking to get other involved and making smart decisions until late where he lapsed on a possession or two.

This team wins pretty much every time Evans buys into passing the ball and getting others involved. We struggle mightily when he doesnt. Last night was a night he didn't and it was also against a team that has the potential to wreck you defensively, a recipe for disaster from the start.

Quote:

---

Since the Minny game on Nov 14 Gordon has been our most consistent scorer.

---

is this some sort of joke? He, after the Nov.14 Min game, played 4 more, then was injured and out 21 games? Hes only been back a month. Yea he had a good stretch in January but his last 3 games? 10% from the field, 25% from the field, 33% from the field, 3, 8, and 7 points. Davis and Tyreke have been much more consistent over that stretch, and were more consistent when Gordon came back in January too.

Edit: He had a 14 game stretch where he averaged 16pts on 47.5% from the field over january, and has done well as a secondary ball handler/distributor with Jrue out, but he has come back down to earth the last three games.

As for the second quarter, I still say you are over exaggerating and I've watched it twice now, once too many

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jgman

is this some sort of joke? He, after the Nov.14 Min game, played 4 more, then was injured and out 21 games? Hes only been back a month. Yea he had a good stretch in January but his last 3 games? 10% from the field, 25% from the field, 33% from the field, 3, 8, and 7 points. Davis and Tyreke have been much more consistent over that stretch, and more were consistent when Gordon came back in January too.

---

I should of said out of our guards. Davis is clearly our most consistent and best scorer.

Gordon, since the Minny Game:
45.3%FG, 48.5%3P, 85%FT, 4.5 Assists, 14pts 57.4%TS 54.5%EFG. 19% usage rate. On catch and shoot plays since Minny he is: 57.7%3P, 83.5% EFG.

And I haven't checked since a couple games ago but Gordon was the best 3 point catch and shoot player in the league.

Evans, since Minny game:
44%FG, 26.5%3P, 68%FT, 5.8 Assists, 17pts, 50%TS 47%EFG. 26% usage rate. On catch and shoot he is about 31%3P and 45% EFG.

Even if we just compare Evans stretch since Jrue went down to Gordons larger sample size Gordon comes out more efficient and consistent over the stretch. Both of them since Jrue went down still pins Gordon above Evans in EFG% and TS%. Although by a smaller margin.

At this point of our conversation though, where you are trying to find a gotcha moment, I get the sense this is going nowhere. You haven't even made a sentence responding to the overall point of the original post you quoted, which was Evans needing to be consistent in his play style from game to game if we want to win consistently. When he gets a lot of assists we tend to win. When he is distributing to start games we tend to find a groove. When he doesnt, we tend to stagnate offensively and lose.

lmao you are arguing that over a period of 43 games since Nov. 14th Gordon was our most consistent scorer as a guard, WHEN HE MISSED 21 OF THOSE 43 GAMES. There is no way. That's just stupid I'm sorry, that's all I can say. You can argue that since he came back he has been better than Tyreke if you want, but if you look at his total body of work this season, Gordon has 14 games averaging 16pts on 47.5% to go with 4-5 assists, but then his other 16 games this season he has been on average a C- at best, and then missed 21. That doesn't sound like consistency, that sounds like he has had 14 good games out of our 51 so far.

I'm not arguing that Tyreke's decision making at times does't hurt our team, it does, but to say it is so bad that not only should he not start but he should not finish games is just ludicrous. This was one game. This season our offense has a +8.8 offensive rating when he is on the court compared to off. +8.8. That is higher than AD's +8.4.

Say what you want about his consistency in play style, currently he is playing out of position which doesn't help, but to put Gordon as our most consistent guard this season I just disagree with you here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

None of our guards have been great defensively but Gordon has been our most consistent defender. Jrue has the potential to be our best and at times played like just that. Evans is Evans. Below average defensively.

---

I don't see how you have such a high opinion of on Gordon's play this season, a more consistent defender than Jrue? you've got to be kidding me. I do think Gordon has had a resurgence of late and has been passable on the defensive end but you are very much overrating his play and impact this season

“They had a great emotional win last night, and it’s always hard to come back the next day, especially, and bring great effort or great accuracy into the game,” Gasol said. “It happens.”

What Gasol said, and the fact that it was a 6 o'clock game, was a recipe for disaster. Our team was out of synch, especially after Davis was injured. The only hope that I had was for Davis to carry somme adrenaline over from the previous game, but him getting hurt obviously snuffed that out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jgman

lmao you are arguing that over a period of 43 games since Nov. 14th Gordon was our most consistent scorer as a guard, WHEN HE MISSED 21 OF THOSE 43 GAMES. There is no way. That's just stupid I'm sorry, that's all I can say. You can argue that since he came back he has been better than Tyreke if you want, but if you look at his total body of work this season, Gordon has 14 games averaging 16pts on 47.5% to go with 4-5 assists, but then his other 16 games this season he has been on average a C- at best, and then missed 21. That doesn't sound like consistency, that sounds like he has had 14 good games out of our 51 so far.

I'm not arguing that Tyreke's decision making at times does't hurt our team, it does, but to say it is so bad that not only should he not start but he should not finish games is just ludicrous. This was one game. This season our offense has a +8.8 offensive rating when he is on the court compared to off. +8.8. That is higher than AD's +8.4.

Say what you want about his consistency in play style, currently he is playing out of position which doesn't help, but to put Gordon as our most consistent guard this season I just disagree with you here.



I don't see how you have such a high opinion of on Gordon's play this season, a more consistent defender than Jrue? you've got to be kidding me. I do think Gordon has had a resurgence of late and has been passable on the defensive end but you are very much overrating his play and impact this season

---

In his games since Minny Gordon has had 70% of his games with over 40% shooting. Evans since the Minny game is 67% of his games with 40% better shooting. Gordon has only one game since Minny where his shooting was in the teens. Evans has 4. Gordon also has the higher EFG%, TS% and better overall scoring numbers. This is just not an argument you are going to win. Gordon, since Minny, has been our most efficient scorer at the guard position. If he continues like he did the last three games that number will certainly drop, but as of right now he is our most efficient and consistent guard.

As for defense. Jrue takes entire games off. I mean his mediocre to bad games outweighed his great ones this season. When he is on he is the best perimeter defender we have, no question. He just needs to work on consistently bringing it every night.

But again, this has become a farce. At this point you are just trying to find something to win the argument on.

You quoted me over a page ago and STILL have not actually made any effort to discuss the point I was making. Its one Evans deflection after another. One Red Herring followed by another red herring. A straw man followed by another straw man. Even if I agree with your premise that Gordon isn't the most efficient and consistent scoring guard, when healthy, since the Minny game, that we have right now - that doesnt change what I said about Evans bi-polar play. Or diminish the criticism he rightly earned last game. I assume you are prodding thinking that if you can disprove something else I said outside of my Evans criticism, that it will somehow retroactively defeat my original point when you quoted me, but thats not how it works. And if that is not what you are doing, then what exactly are you trying to accomplish??

I have responded to a lot of things you are saying that I don't agree with. You made the point that you think Tyreke is inconsistent in the role he plays on the team and his style of play. I responded to that saying he is being asked to play a certain role right now because of need. You then criticized how he is playing the role and pointed to this game as an example, and I responded defending how he is playing in that role and how he played in this game. You had a very large write up of gordon and evan's play this game, a lot of which I disagreed with. Why are you criticizing me for "not making any effort to discuss your point" on Evans when I clearly responded to it before responding to your claims about Eric Gordon's play? You keep saying that I'm not responding to your original point, but you had a lot of other things to say that I disagreed with, a lot of them you were using to fit into your argument that Evans' erratic play is hurting the team, and the first thing I responded to was your point on evan's erratic play, is that the only thing I'm allowed to respond to?

If you want to talk about Evan's erratic role, I'll repeat myself a little but here I'll say a few more things:

Evans is being asked to play a certain role right now out of need, a role he doesn't typically play. What does he typically play? He has been the starting 3, the starting 2, the starting 1, and has come off the bench this season. I think he is performing well given the circumstances. I already posted some stats on how he is playing in the distributor role and his impact on the team. I do think he needs to work on his consistency and decision making but I don't think it is as bad as you are saying it is. He has been asked to play many different roles is it not understandable that he would have not a 100% smooth transition from being put on the bench and asked to be a scorer to being put in the starting pg role?

You use this game as an example of how his erratic play style hurts this team so much. I do not think him being in attack mode is the reason our offense sputtered this game. Like you said, gordon was facilitating and tyreke attacking, it was working we were winning through the first quarter+ after a slow start. He was successful attacking, I'm not seeing where it is hurting us so much. I see Davis go down and a couple of deflating calls coupled in with some bad D (some by Gordon) leading to a bad end to the half, and in the 3rd, I see a lot of Eric Gordon and Ryan Anderson misses, I don't see the tunnel vision. The game is over at 75-46 with a couple minutes left in the third, tyreke only took 1 shot in the 3rd up until that point. Gordon was 1/5 Anderson was 1/5 in the 3rd up until that timeout at 75-46. Where is his erratic play style hurting us so much?

And lastly, why do you have the Minny game stuck in your head? Why do you keep pointing to a game in November right before Gordon goes down for 21 games straight as a point where Gordon also becomes the most consistent guard? It isn't logical, you are using that point to fit it in your argument. Can you be the most most consistent guard over 43 games if you get a 0, DNP in 21 of them? That doesn't make sense to me. You keep avoiding that. You criticize me for "deflecting" on your point about Evans, when I'm responding to your claims about Gordon. how are you not deflecting on all these counter points against Gordon? The first time I mentioned Gordon you blew it off saying "needless to say you are wrong" when you are the one making claims based on a streak of 14 games, 51 games into the season.

You say he is our most consistent defender of the guards when he hasn't played 42% of the season, and I wouldn't agree if you just looked at the games he's played in. My eyes tell me he hasn't been our most consistent defender, and statistically he has the lowest Drtg of the 3 guards and the lowest DWS, and he is fouling at a career high rate.

You say he is our most consistent scorer when, again, he has missed 42% of the season. In the 30 games he has played, he is scoring much less than the other two, making a smaller percentage of his shots, and has a career low FTr. Outside of this 14 game stretch there isn't much there. I'll give him credit for the catch and shoot ability, the only thing keeping his offense afloat, and you mentioned that and how you thought he should be used in that way more, which I agree with. And he has played much better all around in this stretch, but I fail to see how he has been our most consistent. You made those claims, thats my response to them. Are you going to respond to what I'm saying, say agree to disagree, or just ignore what I'm arguing?