Is Vasquez the long term answer?

This team is going to have weaknesses somewhere, but there are 2 questions that must be answered.

1) Will Vasquez accept a lesser but still significant role once Rivers develops or an upgrade at PG is brought in.
2) If Vasquez is the long term starter are the moves available to Demps to get guys at other positions that allow Vasquez to be the weak link in the starting 5?

If the answer to both of those questions is no then that means Vasquez isn't part of the future and should be traded in the next 6 months while his trade value is at it's peak. That's not hating Vasquez, that's facing the harsh reality of team building in the NBA.

Vasquez is at the forefront of all of our defensive problems, nothing changes that.

Couple that with the fact that Lopez is also a poor pick and roll defender, that creates many more problems.

I'm watching him defend it right now, and it's awful. He gets lost on the screen, he rarely gets around one, and when he does he isn't quick enough to meet his man, sometimes the offensive player hasn't even used the screen yet and he's already lost Greivis, and as soon as the offensive player sets a good screen he just gives up on the play and watches. And the amount of help that he is given? The defender who normally hedges is Lopez, and he doesn't even recover half the time because Vasquez has already lost his man.

Where as you watch Gordon, he gets around the screens, he contests jumpers, the help he gets on screens is minimal, where as Vasquez needs help every screen. I even watched some of Rivers. The help he gets compared to Vasquez is minimal.

Vasquez:
http://www.sportzin.com/forums/uploa...116-U10500.jpg

Gordon:
http://www.sportzin.com/forums/uploa...166-U10500.jpg

Rivers:
http://www.sportzin.com/forums/uploa...144-U10500.jpg

Rivers reall is the only dude you see fighting over screens. Gordon is strong enough to as well, but he chooses his own way and is just quick enough to stay in good position.

Vasquez...it's a travesty.

But look at that triple double.

Come on man. That first screen cap is misleading. Vasquez and Lopez were out on the perimeter together. Vasquez was trying to ball pressure Teague and Lopez was waiting for the screen by the Arc. He played that possession just fine. He even went behind the screen just in case Teague decided to blow by Lopez. Lopez made a mistake by backing off instead of contesting the shot when he was in good position. Result of the possession? Bricked 3. and for the Record, on that play Vasquez did the right thing by not chasing. IF he did, the big would have rolled to the basket for an easy deuce.

Screencap 2 is a terrible example. Vasquez was screen by Atlanta and forced a switch for a Gordon vs Teague matchup. And this is a perfect example of what happens when you go behind a Screener with no help. Teague swishes a wide open 3. That was bad defense by Gordon. What Gordon needed to do on that play was go over the screen and force Teague to drive into the help defense.

Screencap 3 is another terrible example as rivers was eaten up on that screen but there good rotation so Jason Smith was there to contest the shot even though Brown hit that shot.

I have all the game tapes with me and cna easily review them. You're using highlights as an example and they're all poor.

Go ahead and review them, they're all the same. I didn't cherry pick anything.

They're all good examples of how the Hornets defend screens with different defenders. You seem stuck on the outcome. I'm simply showing how much more help Vasquez needs. I'm not going to lie and say "Vasquez gets help every possession, or Gordon never gets help." But more often that not, that's exactly how it works out. The team has to direct more help towards Vasquez's man in the pick and roll because he isn't a good pick and roll defender. That leaves everyone else running to catch up.

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Originally Posted by AD23forMVP

Go ahead and review them, they're all the same. I didn't cherry pick anything.

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You did and you were wrong on all acounts. I explained exactly what your flaws were in the selected screencaps. I reviewed the actual game tapes not just some misleading screencaps on some highlight reels. I was very clear.

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Originally Posted by AD23forMVP

Vasquez:
http://www.sportzin.com/forums/uploa...116-U10500.jpg

Gordon:
http://www.sportzin.com/forums/uploa...166-U10500.jpg

Rivers:
http://www.sportzin.com/forums/uploa...144-U10500.jpg

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Very good examples. If you just look at the help that Vasquez requires on the screen... look at all of that space in the lane given up because Lopez has to come out so far to help....thus the big amount of points for the opponent in the paint. And yes you may have a shot blocker back there in AD but he usually doesnt have time to get to the spot which ends up in him causing a foul or allowing the points in the paint. And having the defensive switch from Vasquez to a big man on a smaller faster guard who can break you down, blow past you and either go for the shot in the paint or pop it out to a 3pt shooter is brutal.

This is one of the differences defensively you see between having a guy like Vasquez and having a guy like Jack. I know Vaquez fans hate to admit it but although he's putting up the stats it is very misleading to the OVERALL development to his game. He's just not fast enough to guard anyone with thats at least a step faster than him. Its covered up mainly by his offensive prowess and the help defensivly from others but as you've seen in the games after the big win streak....teams have figured out this is the teams weakness. Thus the uptick in wide open shots in the lane and 3pters.

When you have quick feet its easier to get around those screens. I watched a lot of Vasquez in college. He realies on his size for defense. It works very well against the lesser competition of college and european leagues...but very little against NBA competition. This is why, though I think he's a good offensive player, if this team is going to have defense as its staple, he's not a long term solution. Some may think, hey we would be giving up a major offensive piece, but you gain offense by playing good D because you get that many more possesions.

Once again this is not saying that Vasquez is a bad player, far from it. His improved on offense tremendously and is a great leader on the court. But the limitations he has physically as far as his speed can't be fixed unfortunately.

I was very clear as well. I went through and watched 25+ examples each of Vasquez, Gordon, and Rivers defending the pick and roll and like I said above, I'm not going to lie and say that's the way they're defended on every possession, but more times than not more help is sent Vasquez's way. I don't know what you're watching, or what you think you're watching, but that's just the truth.

Again, you seem to be fixated on how the play ended up. 2/3 ended up in a made basket. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about how much help Vasquez requires to defend, how far out Lopez has to hedge. You don't see him doing that very often with Gordon and Rivers, you just don't.

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Originally Posted by AD23forMVP

I was very clear as well. I went through and watched 25+ examples each of Vasquez, Gordon, and Rivers defending the pick and roll and like I said above, I'm not going to lie and say that's the way they're defended on every possession, but more times than not more help is sent Vasquez's way. I don't know what you're watching, or what you think you're watching, but that's just the truth.

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Here's the problem. I never said Vasquez was a great P&R defender nor have I ever said that he was a good defender. What I've always said was he plays with a lot of effort even on the defensive end. But he has limitations. I don't go out of my way and cherry pick plays to prove my point. We all know his limitations. But at least some of us can put it into perspective and see that his defense isn't completely bad. He does certain thing to help limits his shortcomings like forcing his opponent into the help defense which is is pretty good at.
If you have great points, then I'd have no problems with your thoughts along with many others. But it seems like people's post are way to driven by emotions instead of facts.

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Originally Posted by Nola Hornet

Here's the problem. I never said Vasquez was a great P&R defender nor have I ever said that he was a good defender. What I've always said was he plays with a lot of effort even on the defensive end. But he has limitations. I don't go out of my way and cherry pick plays to prove my point. We all know his limitations. But at least some of us can put it into perspective and see that his defense isn't completely bad. He does certain thing to help limits his shortcomings like forcing his opponent into the help defense which is is pretty good at.
If you have great points, then I'd have no problems with your thoughts along with many others. But it seems like people's post are way to driven by emotions instead of facts.

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I mean hey, I'm all for a good debate. I've said countless times, I love Greivis. He's probably one of my favorite players on this team, but I'm not going to be blinded by that. I'm not going to sugar coat it and say "atleast he forces his man into the help." The reason he has all that help in the first place is because he's a poor defender. You keep saying I cherry picked, but that's just a lie. I've already stated I went through 25+ plays for all three and all three of the pictures I posted was the first or second play at the top of the list. I don't know what about that is cherry picking, but to each his own I guess. But one thing remains the same, team defense is team defense, but you don't see anyone coming that far out to help Gordon or Rivers nearly as much as they do Vasquez. You'll find a way to discredit that as well I'm sure, but again, that's just the truth.

Honestly, I think GV is definitely a below average defender. And really, the jury is still out on him being a long-term answer. Right now, he's fine as the team is in a rebuilding mode. But we'll see long-term.

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Originally Posted by AD23forMVP

I mean hey, I'm all for a good debate. I've said countless times, I love Greivis. He's probably one of my favorite players on this team, but I'm not going to be blinded by that. I'm not going to sugar coat it and say "atleast he forces his man into the help." The reason he has all that help in the first place is because he's a poor defender. You keep saying I cherry picked, but that's just a lie. I've already stated I went through 25+ plays for all three and all three of the pictures I posted was the first or second play at the top of the list. I don't know what about that is cherry picking, but to each his own I guess. But one thing remains the same, team defense is team defense, but you don't see anyone coming that far out to help Gordon or Rivers nearly as much as they do Vasquez. You'll find a way to discredit that as well I'm sure, but again, that's just the truth.

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The plays were all different. Not all screens are set at the same spot or by the same personnel. The screen that was set for Gordon was off a switch so we generally don't hedge on those screens. The screen on Rivers was a mid range screen so hedging isn't an option.

As for the play with Vasquez. This is a common way teams defend screens set on the perimeter. When you have a big sitting at the perimeter waiting to set a screen especially one that can ht a mid range shot, you don't sag. Lopez was in position to guard Harford and that's how he will have to play the screen.

We run that very same screen with Rivers early in the year and he never splits the defenders and usually always get trapped by the big. This is a very effective way to stop the P&R on the perimeter if the rotations are good.

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Originally Posted by Nola Hornet

The plays were all different. Not all screens are set at the same spot or by the same personnel. The screen that was set for Gordon was off a switch so we generally don't hedge on those screens. The screen on Rivers was a mid range screen so hedging isn't an option.

As for the play with Vasquez. This is a common way teams defend screens set on the perimeter. When you have a big sitting at the perimeter waiting to set a screen especially one that can ht a mid range shot, you don't sag. Lopez was in position to guard Harford and that's how he will have to play the screen.

We run that very same screen with Rivers early in the year and he never splits the defenders and usually always get trapped by the big. This is a very effective way to stop the P&R on the perimeter if the rotations are good.

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Nola Hornet, you're wasting your time. You're arguing with a bunch of guys who are complaining about our PG in game in which our 5 wing players scored a combined 19 points.

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Originally Posted by DC-Hornet

Nola Hornet, you're wasting your time. You're arguing with a bunch of guys who are complaining about our PG in game in which our 5 wing players scored a combined 19 points.

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Again, someone fails to realize the vasquez criticism doesn't involve his scoring of offense because they are good. His defense is what they are discussing. If you can talk yourself into thinking vasquez is a good defender, then we can safely call that person a GV fanboy. If we want to talk about scoring, lets just look as Lowry and Lucas. Vasquez made Lucas look so good, Lowry didn't even have to play in the 4th quarter.

I have never seen anyone credit Vasquez as being a good defender. But he isn't as terrible as many here make him out to be, which is the point Nola Hornet is trying to make.

My only issue, is when we discuss Vasquez's defense people always resort to... but he scores 20 points and had 10 assists... Yes, that's great, but we are talking defense. lol

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Originally Posted by Inner_GI

My only issue, is when we discuss Vasquez's defense people always resort to... but he scores 20 points and had 10 assists... Yes, that's great, but we are talking defense. lol

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Good point man... Also what does inner gi mean? Every time I read your name I think of gastrointestinal Tract

I like all of our starting guys (and of course Anderson, Smith as a solid back up big, and even Rivers as a long-term project). I don't know what direction we'll go in in free agency, trades and the draft. But long-term an upgrade can be made everywhere with the exception of Davis who nobody knows 100% if he's a 4 or 5 long-term (most agree 4). Everyone wants a 3 or a 1, but really there's a ton of ways to go. I think we just need to play it smart and take the best available player at the best deal and work from there. Be patient. It will work out if we do that (and I think that's what our plan is).

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Originally Posted by AD23forMVP

I mean hey, I'm all for a good debate. I've said countless times, I love Greivis. He's probably one of my favorite players on this team, but I'm not going to be blinded by that. I'm not going to sugar coat it and say "atleast he forces his man into the help." The reason he has all that help in the first place is because he's a poor defender. You keep saying I cherry picked, but that's just a lie. I've already stated I went through 25+ plays for all three and all three of the pictures I posted was the first or second play at the top of the list. I don't know what about that is cherry picking, but to each his own I guess. But one thing remains the same, team defense is team defense, but you don't see anyone coming that far out to help Gordon or Rivers nearly as much as they do Vasquez. You'll find a way to discredit that as well I'm sure, but again, that's just the truth.

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75 screens? Man you have more free time than I :hihi:

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Originally Posted by Inner_GI

My only issue, is when we discuss Vasquez's defense people always resort to... but he scores 20 points and had 10 assists... Yes, that's great, but we are talking defense. lol

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Because of the thread title? :D

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Originally Posted by Purple Haze

75 screens? Man you have more free time than I :hihi:

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That isn't too many when they play on a continus loop lol

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Originally Posted by AD23forMVP

That isn't too many when they play on a continus loop lol

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You have them d/l'd or something? I thought I was hardcore just for re-watching most games the next day :hihi:

Smh I thought u meant 75 computer screens

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Originally Posted by bojangles837

Good point man... Also what does inner gi mean? Every time I read your name I think of gastrointestinal Tract

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It can stand for "Energy" which is what most people say.

My thought behind the name: Inner Governmental Issues --> Inner_GI