Noel or Holiday

Assuming both are healthy who would you prefer on this team at this moment (and in the long haul)? It's still very early in Noels career but he's been progressing very quickly, he's only 20. I also saw some where that he was among league leaders in shots altered at the rim. I love what Holiday brings as much as the next guy and I was also a big advocate of the trade, but as of late i'm starting to feel like we may have gotten the short end of the stick here.



edit: I tried to post a poll with this but I failed pretty bad.

2nd edit: nvm, got it.

3rd edit: Turns out Noel has been below average in defending post up situations but he's a premiere P&R defender, still a lot to like and he's very young as is jrue of course.

I rather Gobert

I buggest problem is perimeter D and holiday helps that. Noel does the same thing AD does but can exert more effort on the defensive end because he has no offensive game.

I'd still go with Jrue. Noel plays the same position as AD. I know he can play center at times, but realistically who plays a 195 lb center consistently in this league

At this point in that trade, you can say it's a push. Neither player has wowed anyone.

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Originally Posted by HalfBreed

I rather Gobert

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Me too.

I voted it's too early but I have to say that my fears of this trade biting us in the *** are sort of being realized.

If we are honest with ourselves jrue has basically been a non-factor for this team. He has been on the court about as much as Gordon was his first few years here.

Noel is posting 12 points, 11 rebounds, 2.8 blocks and 2.8 steals since the Allstar break. He is a bit undersized at 220ish but his speed makes up for some of it and like davis adds another layer of defense most players just don't have. His ability to switch onto PG's in the pick and role helps their defense and his closing speed, like davis, who can get to the perimeter in a flash is a huge asset imo.

Grantland has a nice article pushing for The case as Noel as rookie of the year.

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Advanced metrics support the eye test. Noel’s Defensive Box Plus/Minus ranking is second in the NBA, his Defensive Rating is eighth, and, according to SportVU player tracking, opponents shoot only 45 percent at the basket against him, which places him in elite rim-protector territory. The Sixers surrender 99.5 points per 100 possessions when he’s on the floor — which is slightly better than the Rockets and Blazers, the third- and fourth-best defenses in the league. He’s the primary reason Philly’s defense has jumped from 27th last year to 12th this season — and it plunges back down when he leaves the hardwood, according to NBA.com

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http://grantland.com/the-triangle/ne...e-of-the-year/

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Originally Posted by HalfBreed

I rather Gobert

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I rather young Shaq

I still hold the same position that I did when the trade went down. We gave up far too much for a slightly above average point guard. Don't get me wrong, I like Jrue as a player and as a person but his price was way too high.

At this point Jrue may be a better player but he's also getting something like $7 million more a season. With the way Nerlens is progressing he looks like he may become one of the premier defenders in the NBA and prove exactly why I hated this trade so much.

jury still out imo.

I would say Holiday. He provides good perimeter defense. Noel had improved but not enough in my opinion. Based on his first few years, there is no way anybody could have predicted Jrue being injured this much. If it wasn't for injuries would we even be asking this question. I doubt it.

To answer the question without a doubt it's Noel. He's the only one playing at the moment.

I haven't seen Noel enough to say if he could be the defensive anchor next to AD, and he hasn't really played a meaningful game yet, and had his own injury concerns coming into the league. Plus Jrue hasn't had a ton of time to mesh with the Pelicans on the court.

It's too early to say

Hindsight being 20/20, I'd rather Noel (or whoever the 2013 pick could have been), my 2014 pick, and $8m in salary space to spend on a free agent.

Could we have gotten Jeff Teague instead of Jrue? Brandon Jennings? Isaiah Thomas?

We could've drafted MCW, kept Vasquez and Lopez, drafted Nurkic with our 2014 pick, had more cap flexibility going forward, in addition to having our 2015 pick as a valuable trade chip still in our possession. Could've put us in the Dragic, Green, Knight, Thomas, etc sweepstakes for this season.

So yes, hindsight being 20/20, it's easy to say you don't make the Jrue trade. It's questionable whether he's played at the level of 2 lottery picks when healthy, he's going to be a free agent when we're making a serious run, and his health is now a serious question.

I thought his play would expedite AD's development, but he hasn't been available enough to get credit for AD's development. AD is just a beast.

Holiday all day, everyday. Everyday is a Holiday!

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Originally Posted by thefuture

I rather young Shaq

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The two are just as likely.

To those stating Jrue, let me make something clear to you.

You are not a better fan just because you refused to admit the truth to yourself. You are not a better fan because you cannot admit that our beloved team makes mistakes. (They are not run by robots yet are they?)

Noel needs a lot of work, but he seems to have a very bright future.

Considering the actual play time, future injury issues, salary, and potential ceiling.... only those blinded by "fandom" cannot see the truth.

Who cares whose better? Would you rather have the 76ers roster or the Pelicans roster? The team is what the team is. Just enjoy it.

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Originally Posted by Npliam

The two are just as likely.

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Exactly

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Originally Posted by DefensiveMind

Who cares whose better? Would you rather have the 76ers roster or the Pelicans roster? The team is what the team is. Just enjoy it.

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If we aren't supposed to discuss matters of this team then it kind of defeats the purpose of a message board about the team doesnt it?

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Originally Posted by Bongzilla

To those stating Jrue, let me make something clear to you.

You are not a better fan just because you refused to admit the truth to yourself. You are not a better fan because you cannot admit that our beloved team makes mistakes. (They are not run by robots yet are they?)

Noel needs a lot of work, but he seems to have a very bright future.

Considering the actual play time, future injury issues, salary, and potential ceiling.... only those blinded by "fandom" cannot see the truth.

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Jrue.

You are using a bunch of words and saying nothing. You are just saying Noel is better, which is fine, but the rest of the insults are just baseless.

Deal with differing opinions as something other than an attack.

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Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

If we aren't supposed to discuss matters of this team then it kind of defeats the purpose of a message board about the team doesnt it?

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You aren't discussing the team. You are discussing discussing.

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Originally Posted by 42

You are using a bunch of words and saying nothing. .

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Originally Posted by 42

You aren't discussing the team. You are discussing discussing.

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Kinda summing yourself up for everyone aren't you?

When you have something of value to actually add to anything around here feel free to quote me with that alright. Thanks.

Way to leave out the part where I addressed the topic.

Intentionally misquoting someone because you really can't make a point without publicly lying... Sad, pointless.

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Originally Posted by 42

Way to leave out the part where I addressed the topic.

Intentionally misquoting someone because you really can't make a point without publicly lying... Sad, pointless.

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You addressed the topic? Really? Care to point that out?

I see nothing that you have added of substance about the core discussion of Jrue vs Noel.

All I saw was more of your trolling/shaming posters through the prism of your illusory superiority complex while offering even less substance then those you are attempting to shame/troll.

I loved the trade, I will say that looking at the current landscape of the NBA point guard is an obviously valuable position, having said that, it seems to me there is a lot of talent at PG in the league right now, and a lack of big men. Noel is not as good of a player as Jrue, not even close, having said that, the differences in talent between replacements for each position might make the slide tilt towards Noel. Does that make sense? I think the saying is, wins above replacement, but in this case its money/team-needs above replacement i guess. I still think Jrue is a great player, there are just a lot of great point guards in the league and look to be even more coming.

Jrue may be the better player when healthy, but, for me, it's Noel. Point guard is easily the league's deepest position. It doesn't take much to think up 15 players at the position that would be just as good on this team as a healthy Jrue...if not better. Throw in the multitude of missed games, the potential long term injury concerns, his salary, and the additional 1st rounder it took to get Holiday, and it's hard to see how this is even close. I don't blame the front office for gambling on Jrue's promise, but, as things stand, I wish we would have kept Noel and our 2014 draft pick.

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Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

You addressed the topic? Really? Care to point that out?

I see nothing that you have added of substance about the core discussion of Jrue vs Noel.

All I saw was more of your trolling/shaming posters through the prism of your illusory superiority complex while offering even less substance then those you are attempting to shame/troll.

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I already pointed it out when I posted originally. First line.

Find a new schtick, people see through it. And you do not know me. Try sticking to the words typed here instead of imagining what I might think.

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Originally Posted by 42

I already pointed it out when I posted originally. First line.

Find a new schtick, people see through it. And you do not know me. Try sticking to the words typed here instead of imagining what I might think.

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Not much substance in a one word assertion.

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Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

If we aren't supposed to discuss matters of this team then it kind of defeats the purpose of a message board about the team doesnt it?

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Dont pull that with me. On the list of things we could discuss this is somewhere around 2,135th.

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Originally Posted by DefensiveMind

Dont pull that with me. On the list of things we could discuss this is somewhere around 2,135th.

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You forgot to add "in my opinion."

Because thats what it is. Your opinion.

Im trying not to let the sour taste of the loss poison my response much but topics on this board aren't prioritizing the process of curing cancer.

This is an opinion board about a sports team we all love and wish the best for and like to talk about. That manifests in different ways for different people. "What ifs" are a staple on pretty much any message board, sports or not.

So far 39 people think this discussion was interesting enough to take that poll, make 30 posts and has 725 views. You don't like the topic, thats cool, but plenty others seem to. So who are you to come in and dismissively tell everyone not to talk about something they are interested in discussing? Then get offended when some points out the obvious about your response?

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Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

Not much substance in a one word assertion.

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Check the topic. By check, I mean read. My response perfectly addresses the topic.

This game tonight is just one example of many where when you ask "Does this team need more help in the front court or back court" that you basically have to answer "back court."

Perimeter defense in particular.

This is where Jrue comes in.

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Originally Posted by 42

Check the topic. By check, I mean read. My response perfectly addresses the topic.

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One word did. The rest was the usual 42 tripe where he calls out others from his mountaintop of self-righteousness and hubris. Oblivious to the hypocrisy he exhibits.

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Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

One word did. The rest was the usual 42 tripe where he calls out others from his mountaintop of self-righteousness and hubris. Oblivious to the hypocrisy he exhibits.

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Learn what words mean before you use them. None of those things apply.

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Originally Posted by 42

Learn what words mean before you use them. None of those things apply.

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Much like a lot of what you assert as fact but isn't, thats an opinion.

I happen to see it differently.

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Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

Much like a lot of what you assert as fact but isn't, thats an opinion.

I happen to see it differently.

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Not all opinions are worth the same, and the definitions of the words are not really up for debate. You are misapplying words, intentionally misquoting, lying, and for what?

Just stop. You are insulting me. I am writing about what you type here. There is a big difference, and most people see it. You should just stick to the topics and discussion.

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Originally Posted by 42

Not all opinions are worth the same, and the definitions of the words are not really up for debate. You are misapplying words, intentionally misquoting, lying, and for what?

Just stop. You are insulting me. I am writing about what you type here. There is a big difference, and most people see it. You should just stick to the topics and discussion.

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The definition of the words aren't up for debate. I agree.

What you are debating is that they don't apply to your posting style. What I am saying is that they do.

If it bothers you that I am not substantiating my opinion further yet continuing to assert it, and telling you that you are wrong, well, you may just see where the claim of hypocrisy is coming from if you look over your past posts and see how you do it to others all the time. Heck, just look at you telling someone(me) to stick to the topic when you have spent all of one word actually addressing the question the OP asked and who's initial posts were 99% off topic with regards to what the OP asked.

And when this was my contribution to answering the questions in the OP:

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I voted it's too early but I have to say that my fears of this trade biting us in the *** are sort of being realized.

If we are honest with ourselves jrue has basically been a non-factor for this team. He has been on the court about as much as Gordon was his first few years here.

Noel is posting 12 points, 11 rebounds, 2.8 blocks and 2.8 steals since the Allstar break. He is a bit undersized at 220ish but his speed makes up for some of it and like davis adds another layer of defense most players just don't have. His ability to switch onto PG's in the pick and role helps their defense and his closing speed, like davis, who can get to the perimeter in a flash is a huge asset imo.

Grantland has a nice article pushing for The case as Noel as rookie of the year.

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Advanced metrics support the eye test. Noel’s Defensive Box Plus/Minus ranking is second in the NBA, his Defensive Rating is eighth, and, according to SportVU player tracking, opponents shoot only 45 percent at the basket against him, which places him in elite rim-protector territory. The Sixers surrender 99.5 points per 100 possessions when he’s on the floor — which is slightly better than the Rockets and Blazers, the third- and fourth-best defenses in the league. He’s the primary reason Philly’s defense has jumped from 27th last year to 12th this season — and it plunges back down when he leaves the hardwood, according to NBA.com

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http://grantland.com/the-triangle/ne...e-of-the-year/

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And this was yours:

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Originally Posted by 42

Jrue.

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It's laughable that you are trying to lecture me on staying on topic(And no, attacking another persons post is not a substitute for addressing the OP).

I wouldn't of even responded to you if I wasn't so tired of this schtick of yours.

Mine answered the question.

Your was a bunch of stuff and did not.

You can have all your little opinions, but you seem to only state them about other posters (of which you know nothing) rather than basketball (which you seem to know something of).

You can go dig though my post histoey and find me debating empty points you and trolls raise, and you can find other stuff. You find what you want.

I could not care less that you dislike me, but you will not just post insupported nonsense without a response.

It is debatable at this point. One is coming up and producing, the other, who knows where he will be when he comes back.

That said, I am happy with what Cole is doing, and I hope he is given a chance to run the point as a starter. He is showing his worth while getting solid time on the court. I wonder what he could do with more.

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Originally Posted by 42

Mine answered the question.

Your was a bunch of stuff and did not.

You can have all your little opinions, but you seem to only state them about other posters (of which you know nothing) rather than basketball (which you seem to know something of).

You can go dig though my post histoey and find me debating empty points you and trolls raise, and you can find other stuff. You find what you want.

I could not care less that you dislike me, but you will not just post insupported nonsense without a response.

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LOL. You're cute. I've seen better trolls though. Work on your game. This post says all I needed.

Maybe at one time you bought something of value to this board. Maybe one day I will see that and maybe one day after that I will see more posts of substance and value then I do of you trolling and searching for low hanging fruit to attack that derails threads and adds nothing of value. And maybe, just maybe, you will one day hold yourself to the same standards you ask others to hold themselves too.

....I won't hold my breath though.

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Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

LOL. You're cute. I've seen better trolls though. Work on your game. This post says all I needed.

Maybe at one time you bought something of value to this board. Maybe one day I will see that and maybe one day after that I will see more posts of substance and value then I do of you trolling and searching for low hanging fruit to attack that derails threads and adds nothing of value. And maybe, just maybe, you will one day hold yourself to the same standards you ask others to hold themselves too.

....I won't hold my breath though.

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All my posts have been on topic or a response to you. Again, all fine words, all not relevant, and all are typical from posters who are more interested in knocking others down than discussing.

I forgot you will say anything to have the last word.

Go ahead.

And I'll be on notice for all the things you bring, and your answer to the topic for this thread.

I voted Jrue, and I will vote Jrue all day. We need a healthy defensive guard, who can score and assist.

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Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

You addressed the topic? Really? Care to point that out?

I see nothing that you have added of substance about the core discussion of Jrue vs Noel.

All I saw was more of your trolling/shaming posters through the prism of your illusory superiority complex while offering even less substance then those you are attempting to shame/troll.

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+100

42 you are a troll, but you do not realize it. You are a troll who feels you are on a crusade of internet debating and grammar justice! How laughable and ironic that you mention a lack of substance in my post, that is your forte.


This is one of those situations where you feel kinda bad for laughing, because we are just not sure what we are dealing with.

Keep waving your flag my man. FORUM JUSTICE MUST BE SERVED!!!!

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Originally Posted by lawless522

Jrue may be the better player when healthy, but, for me, it's Noel. Point guard is easily the league's deepest position. It doesn't take much to think up 15 players at the position that would be just as good on this team as a healthy Jrue...if not better. Throw in the multitude of missed games, the potential long term injury concerns, his salary, and the additional 1st rounder it took to get Holiday, and it's hard to see how this is even close. I don't blame the front office for gambling on Jrue's promise, but, as things stand, I wish we would have kept Noel and our 2014 draft pick.

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Nice first post. Welcome.

To those saying "Jrue" or, "Jrue all day and its not even close"


Re-read this post I quoted and then tell me why you feel the way you do? This guy just nailed it IMO.

Jrue. Noel is a poster for dunkers around the league.

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Originally Posted by lawless522

Jrue may be the better player when healthy, but, for me, it's Noel. Point guard is easily the league's deepest position. It doesn't take much to think up 15 players at the position that would be just as good on this team as a healthy Jrue...if not better. Throw in the multitude of missed games, the potential long term injury concerns, his salary, and the additional 1st rounder it took to get Holiday, and it's hard to see how this is even close. I don't blame the front office for gambling on Jrue's promise, but, as things stand, I wish we would have kept Noel and our 2014 draft pick.

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Point guard is the deepest position in the league. Due to this, we need someone who can defend guys like Paul, Irving, Westbrook, etc.
Jrue is one of the best perimeter defenders due to his size & speed. If we would've kept Noel, he wouldn't have gotten any minutes due to him playing the PF behind Davis/Anderson. We needed a starting point guard and we got him.

However, Noel & Holiday have both played about the same amount of games since the trade. lol. smh.

Edit: I failed to mention that if Jrue had played, Westbrook would've scored significantly less against us the last 2 games and IMO we would be 4-0 against Thunder.

The easy vote for me is jrue. Go back and look at the games that Jrue has missed. Almost every game the opposing teams PG or SG is their top scorer not PF or C. Reke and Gordon are just to slow, agility wise, to keep up with some of the quick PG and SG which allows them in the paint.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by billfromfinance

I voted Jrue, and I will vote Jrue all day. We need a healthy defensive guard, who can score and assist.

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Not doing anything in street clothes.

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Originally Posted by Bongzilla

Nice first post. Welcome.

To those saying "Jrue" or, "Jrue all day and its not even close"


Re-read this post I quoted and then tell me why you feel the way you do? This guy just nailed it IMO.

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Very much appreciated, man. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Caffeinedisastr

Point guard is the deepest position in the league. Due to this, we need someone who can defend guys like Paul, Irving, Westbrook, etc.
Jrue is one of the best perimeter defenders due to his size & speed. If we would've kept Noel, he wouldn't have gotten any minutes due to him playing the PF behind Davis/Anderson. We needed a starting point guard and we got him.

However, Noel & Holiday have both played about the same amount of games since the trade. lol. smh.

Edit: I failed to mention that if Jrue had played, Westbrook would've scored significantly less against us the last 2 games and IMO we would be 4-0 against Thunder.

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Problem with your argument is the presumption that, had we not traded for Jrue, we would have done absolutely nothing to address our need at point guard. I don't see it like that. Like I said, point guard is the deepest position in the league. Someone is always available. This year alone, Goran Dragic, Michael Carter Williams, Brandon Knight, Reggie Jackson, Isaiah Thomas, and Rajon Rondo were all dealt. If we didn't draft one in 2013 because of Noel, we still would've had our 2014 pick to work with. Point being, with such a deep talent pool, you can't just assume we wouldn't have been able to acquire someone else capable of handling the position.

Again, I agree with those arguing the point that, if healthy, Jrue is currently the better player who fills the bigger need position (if not for the "if healthy" caveat, this isn't even a discussion), but that's only if we're looking at this in a vacuum. I choose to factor in that we're discussing the league's deepest position and there are about 15 other players out there who are just as good, if not better than Jrue Holiday. There's only 30 teams in the league. That makes him a slightly above average player at his position at best. I also choose to factor in that Noel has a higher ceiling. But, more importantly, I choose to factor in the two consecutive 1st round picks in the top 10 that it cost to get Jrue.