Controversial Take on Zion and others like him.

There are some players who have chronic health issues that are beyond their ability to overcome. Zion, Anthony Davis, Embiid, D. Rose, Grant Hill, Brandon Roy, P. Hardaway Tracy McGrady.. Maybe, the only solution for these kind of players is to allow them to only play every other game of the regular season to preserve them for the playoffs and their careers.

Is it fair? No. But I do believe some of these guys have a strong will and desire to play and give an honest effort to be on the floor. Their bodies just wont allow it.

What are your opinions on the league making exceptions for some players who are chronically injured, to at least give them more of an opportunity to give more than what they're giving now?

You can’t build your franchise around a 50% available player. You think Zion would hold up to the physicality of the NBA playoffs if he ever even sees a NBA playoff series? 6 seasons of the same ********. To expect anything different at this point is insane. I don’t blame Dave Griffin. The talent on this team is upper echelon. The injury history on these players are the worst in the league.

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Originally Posted by Darkhorse985

You can’t build your franchise around a 50% available player. You think Zion would hold up to the physicality of the NBA playoffs if he ever even sees a NBA playoff series?

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Both of your objections are valid. What I'm saying is would you get more on-court play if he was regulated to only half of a schedule? Would that be preferable to what we're getting now? It's not ideal, I agree with you. But I do believe some players, despite a will to be available, simply can't be.

Lakers were able to win a championship with AD only having to play a limited amount of games. He was a monster when they needed him to be. When it counted the most.

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Originally Posted by Nichols

Both of your objections are valid. What I'm saying is would you get more on-court play if he was regulated to only half of a schedule? Would that be preferable to what we're getting now? It's not ideal, I agree with you. But I do believe some players, despite a will to be available, simply can't be.

Lakers were able to win a championship with AD only having to play a limited amount of games. He was a monster when they needed him to be. When it counted the most.

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The Clippers essentially did this with Kawhi and basically just pissed off the fans. Is Kawhi any healthier? They have never won anything substantial with Kawhi. Also, the Lakers won a championship in an abbreviated season. The NBA season is simply too long. Back to backs shouldn’t exist.

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Originally Posted by Darkhorse985

The Clippers essentially did this with Kawhi and basically just pissed off the fans. They have never won anything substantial with Kawhi. Also, the Lakers won a championship in an abbreviated season. The NBA season is simply too long. Back to backs shouldn’t exist.

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It's funny you mentioned him. I thought about him as an exception to what I'm saying. I can't be certain but I think he's a diva. What I'm saying wouldn't apply to players like him. And I know what I'm proposing would be a challenge to implement for a variety of reasons.

I think a minutes restriction is a better way to solve it... it sounds crazy to say about your best player but we should keep him at 20 min a game. Radical action is necessary if we want Zion in the playoffs.

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

I think a minutes restriction is a better way to solve it... it sounds crazy to say about your best player but we should keep him at 20 min a game. Radical action is necessary if we want Zion in the playoffs.

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Yeah, that's an option also. It would ******** him off for sure. But I just don't see any other way to preserve him, other than limiting his time on the court during the regular season. The will is there, but the body say's no. We have to come to grips that this is a reality for some really talented players.

So this is what it has come down to now? At some point do you say enough and check his trade value? This team is not moving forward anytime soon until these hamstring issues go away. As of now they are not. On that note notice there is no timetable on his return. It is possible and it has already happened. Zion may not return this season.

But I guess it’s cool seeing him on the bench?

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Originally Posted by 13 - 3

So this is what it has come down to now? At some point do you say enough and check his trade value? This team is not moving forward anytime soon until these hamstring issues go away. As of now they are not. On that note notice there is no timetable on his return. It is possible and it has already happened. Zion may not return this season.

But I guess it’s cool seeing him on the bench?

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I could be wrong but I don't think he's physically capable of playing a full season and playoffs consistently, year after year.

I don't like the idea of trading Zion, and Ingram because of the market NO is in. Recruiting comparable talent is next to impossible. But I also understand why you'd want to. Problem is you're not going to get equal value for either of those guys. Especially Zion. He's a generational talent. You won't get market value for him because of his health issues. So you weigh generation talent that when healthy puts up super star numbers with limited availability vs good players that are mostly available, but don't put you in championship contention.

It's a tough position to be in as a franchise. Honestly I'm not sure what the best course of action is.

I don't think limiting games and or minutes restrictions will work for a player like Zion. These repeated soft tissue injuries seem to be a combination of his insane ability to generate power and his size. Practicing and pick up games seem to be okay for him as he was seemingly healthy all off season and appeared to be in great shape coming into the season. I think when he goes 100%, as in actual games, he is just generating so much force he keeps getting these hamstring issues. I don't know what the answer for him would be without actually being able to evaluate him in person but I don't think limiting his time, minutes or games played, would really make too much difference. The only thing I can think of, from a distance, is try to have him lose more weight to take more stress off of his muscles. It's the only controllable factor as I'm sure he is doing all the stretches and conditioning he possibly can.

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Originally Posted by Nichols

There are some players who have chronic health issues that are beyond their ability to overcome. Zion, Anthony Davis, Embiid, D. Rose, Grant Hill, Brandon Roy, P. Hardaway Tracy McGrady.. Maybe, the only solution for these kind of players is to allow them to only play every other game of the regular season to preserve them for the playoffs and their careers.

Is it fair? No. But I do believe some of these guys have a strong will and desire to play and give an honest effort to be on the floor. Their bodies just wont allow it.

What are your opinions on the league making exceptions for some players who are chronically injured, to at least give them more of an opportunity to give more than what they're giving now?

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I don't think all of these things are created equally. Roy and Hardaway had degenerative knee issues, there's no way for that to get better (McGrady too, I guess, though it feels like he played longer before the issues). Rose and Hill had traumatic injuries/complications which cost them multiple seasons and then they were able to come back and play full time (albeit at a reduced ability/athleticism). Davis seems to magically be able to play all the time now. Zion seems most comparable to Embiid, who has had a number of freak things happen (facial fractures, etc) combined with what seems like (weight-related?) knee/lower body injuries. Harden is another player who's dealt with repeated hamstring issues, and also isn't exactly the paragon of conditioning. I think most sports science people will tell you that you're more prone to pull muscles when you're tired...maybe a minutes cap works, but I think he's just got to continue to get into better shape. Sitting out games when healthy is just going to be super frustrating for everyone involved (Zion, team, fans, etc.).

The 1st thing is you go out and find the absolute world best at conditioning and dealing with soft tissue and hamstring issues because the Saints need it as well with all the soft tissue injuries they have had. Then you might as a precautionary measure not let Z play in B2B games or you could make a radical decision to keep him out of games with very weak opponents thinking that we could win without him

Our players have to work to hard to win. Joel and AD mention it all the time. We have a much harder time getting buckets than the opposition. If you watch the amount of contact Zion takes when he is playing Point Zion, it is akin to a quarterback running the ball without going down to avoid contact. Think RG3. When you are getting beat up all the time, you will get hurt. It is unavoidable. If you are getting beat up while running full speed, you will almost certainly get hurt. Zion isn't sitting in the post and backing people into the paint. He is doing a sprint from the 3 pt line and people are smacking him and grabbing him while he is charging full tilt to the rim. It is impossible for him not to tweak something eventually or get hurt. All of that mass that zion has also makes him that much more likely to get hurt. It's why running backs in football are getting shorter these days. You can still be strong with a low center of gravity and the less mass you have the less likely you are to get hurt. You want a smaller more durable guy taking the ballhandling load in games. You want Zion working on other areas and converting more inside the paint as opposed to running full tilt into brick walls.

I agree at this point it's hard to envision a version of Zion that can play a 6-month NBA season and then make it through the grind of the playoffs, high-leverage, extended minutes, and make it to the championship. Just hard to envision.

I can accept two courses. First, Zion and the Pels go all in on bringing in the best trainers, consultants, physios, etc...all geared to developing a regime to address Zion's soft tissue injury problems + Zion gets his weight down to the 260 range and stays there. I just don't think there is any hope at all he can play a season+playoffs at 280pds+. No chance.

Second, if the first course is not achievable for whatever reason (Zion won't cooperate/the team won't commit) then I think you have to move on from Zion. He is a transcendent offensive player. But it simply is not tenable to build your roster around a player that you all but know won't be available 50% of the time or, more crucially, can't survive the rigors of the season to play extended minutes in the post-season. What's the point if he is never available in the playoffs? You're just treading water and prolonging the misery. Sad situation, but time to face facts...

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Originally Posted by P_B_&_G

I don't think limiting games and or minutes restrictions will work for a player like Zion. These repeated soft tissue injuries seem to be a combination of his insane ability to generate power and his size. Practicing and pick up games seem to be okay for him as he was seemingly healthy all off season and appeared to be in great shape coming into the season. I think when he goes 100%, as in actual games, he is just generating so much force he keeps getting these hamstring issues. I don't know what the answer for him would be without actually being able to evaluate him in person but I don't think limiting his time, minutes or games played, would really make too much difference. The only thing I can think of, from a distance, is try to have him lose more weight to take more stress off of his muscles. It's the only controllable factor as I'm sure he is doing all the stretches and conditioning he possibly can.

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I agree in part. He would definitely benefit from carrying less bulk. I also think less time on the court during the rigors of a regular season increases the likelihood that he'll be available when we really need him in the post season.

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Originally Posted by ml wave

I don't think all of these things are created equally. Roy and Hardaway had degenerative knee issues, there's no way for that to get better (McGrady too, I guess, though it feels like he played longer before the issues). Rose and Hill had traumatic injuries/complications which cost them multiple seasons and then they were able to come back and play full time (albeit at a reduced ability/athleticism). Davis seems to magically be able to play all the time now. Zion seems most comparable to Embiid, who has had a number of freak things happen (facial fractures, etc) combined with what seems like (weight-related?) knee/lower body injuries. Harden is another player who's dealt with repeated hamstring issues, and also isn't exactly the paragon of conditioning. I think most sports science people will tell you that you're more prone to pull muscles when you're tired...maybe a minutes cap works, but I think he's just got to continue to get into better shape. Sitting out games when healthy is just going to be super frustrating for everyone involved (Zion, team, fans, etc.).

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Good post.. Valid analysis on the players referenced. I'd like to see a combination of reduced playing time, with better conditioning, coupled with less body mass. If there is improvement with his durability then his playing time can be adjusted.

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Originally Posted by djrnno

The 1st thing is you go out and find the absolute world best at conditioning and dealing with soft tissue and hamstring issues because the Saints need it as well with all the soft tissue injuries they have had. Then you might as a precautionary measure not let Z play in B2B games or you could make a radical decision to keep him out of games with very weak opponents thinking that we could win without him

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You guys know more about ownership than I do. I've not heard good things about them. But if part of the reason our guys are so injury prone is because of mismanagement during the off-season, that would be part of the reason why NO has trouble getting new premier talent.

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Originally Posted by JJackisangry

Our players have to work to hard to win. Joel and AD mention it all the time. We have a much harder time getting buckets than the opposition. If you watch the amount of contact Zion takes when he is playing Point Zion, it is akin to a quarterback running the ball without going down to avoid contact. Think RG3. When you are getting beat up all the time, you will get hurt. It is unavoidable. If you are getting beat up while running full speed, you will almost certainly get hurt. Zion isn't sitting in the post and backing people into the paint. He is doing a sprint from the 3 pt line and people are smacking him and grabbing him while he is charging full tilt to the rim. It is impossible for him not to tweak something eventually or get hurt. All of that mass that zion has also makes him that much more likely to get hurt. It's why running backs in football are getting shorter these days. You can still be strong with a low center of gravity and the less mass you have the less likely you are to get hurt. You want a smaller more durable guy taking the ballhandling load in games. You want Zion working on other areas and converting more inside the paint as opposed to running full tilt into brick walls.

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I hadn't thought about it like that.. He does play like a running back lol.. And yes, they have limited lifespans in the NFL now.

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Originally Posted by new city champ

I agree at this point it's hard to envision a version of Zion that can play a 6-month NBA season and then make it through the grind of the playoffs, high-leverage, extended minutes, and make it to the championship. Just hard to envision.

I can accept two courses. First, Zion and the Pels go all in on bringing in the best trainers, consultants, physios, etc...all geared to developing a regime to address Zion's soft tissue injury problems + Zion gets his weight down to the 260 range and stays there. I just don't think there is any hope at all he can play a season+playoffs at 280pds+. No chance.

Second, if the first course is not achievable for whatever reason (Zion won't cooperate/the team won't commit) then I think you have to move on from Zion. He is a transcendent offensive player. But it simply is not tenable to build your roster around a player that you all but know won't be available 50% of the time or, more crucially, can't survive the rigors of the season to play extended minutes in the post-season. What's the point if he is never available in the playoffs? You're just treading water and prolonging the misery. Sad situation, but time to face facts...

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That's the main thing missing at this point.

Trade him for picks bro

Anyone see what Wemby is doing for the Spurs? This is what we thought Zion would be!

Dyson Daniels is going to be first team All-NBA by the end of next season at this rate.

It's not all Zion's fault. I think it is criminal that he hasn't improved several areas of his game that would certainly help him have a healthier run in the NBA. I don't think it would hurt to keep his weight down obviously, but some people are just built stocky like Zion. It isn't like he is eating cheesecake every day for dinner. When I look at the overall picture though- again it comes down to the coaching staff (and you could argue Griff). They know what he needed to work on in the off-season. They had eyes on this whole roster for multiple off-season. If Zion had the ability to pull up for 5-6 plays a game and take some plays off the ball and work in the paint, not only would he be in a healthier spot but the Pelicans as well. I have no doubts the staff just assumed Zion would be able to continue playing the way he has and "let's just bring in spacing bro." Forgetting that the fundamental problem with Zion driving to the paint is players are allowed to smack the crap out of him because he is built like a tank. Spacing won't magically cure the woes; it helps but it isn't a fix. They allow more contact because of his build.

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Originally Posted by JJackisangry

Our players have to work to hard to win. Joel and AD mention it all the time. We have a much harder time getting buckets than the opposition. If you watch the amount of contact Zion takes when he is playing Point Zion, it is akin to a quarterback running the ball without going down to avoid contact. Think RG3. When you are getting beat up all the time, you will get hurt. It is unavoidable. If you are getting beat up while running full speed, you will almost certainly get hurt. Zion isn't sitting in the post and backing people into the paint. He is doing a sprint from the 3 pt line and people are smacking him and grabbing him while he is charging full tilt to the rim. It is impossible for him not to tweak something eventually or get hurt. All of that mass that zion has also makes him that much more likely to get hurt. It's why running backs in football are getting shorter these days. You can still be strong with a low center of gravity and the less mass you have the less likely you are to get hurt. You want a smaller more durable guy taking the ballhandling load in games. You want Zion working on other areas and converting more inside the paint as opposed to running full tilt into brick walls.

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I agree. This comes down to having a HC and coaching staff that can design the best offense to fit our players , OR getting the right players to fit the offense. WG is NOT the guy

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Originally Posted by Nichols

You guys know more about ownership than I do. I've not heard good things about them. But if part of the reason our guys are so injury prone is because of mismanagement during the off-season, that would be part of the reason why NO has trouble getting new premier talent.

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I don't think ownership is the problem, Mrs.B is more than willing to spend whatever needs be and do whatever the GM wants both DG and ML wants. The issue could be in mistakes done by both, more DG than ML because ML leans more on what the HC and scouting dept wants