Forget LAL and LAC.

Thoughts on Zion’s debut

Encouraging, but not surprising.

He wasn't really going for rebounds that consistently, which I understand. The paint was crammed and it's Summer League. With how quickly they pulled him for even some light knee-to-knee contact, I wouldn't be surprised if they told him to play that a little safe.

Defense wasn't amazing but then it's summer league, and defense is never that great there. Zion's a little like Draymond on defense, and that means that he works best as a kind of free-roamer in an otherwise disciplined defense. Summer League doesn't have that: most people aren't playing D at all, so it wasn't a fit to show off his defensive skills that much. The steal on Knox was brutal though, and we need to look forward to a lot more of that this season.

On offense, I thought he moved pretty well off the ball. We didn't get to see him run much offense which is kind of disappointing, but he showed some good chemistry with Kenrich off the pick and roll, and he read the defense beautifully a few times.

Encouraging, like I said, but nothing super surprising. Just enough to get another a look at him and say ''yeah he's good at this sport''.

Needs to work on his release. Seems a bit slow and low angle that led to several blocks. That being said, it was his first pro game and Mitchel Robinson is a damn good defender.

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Originally Posted by bradael

Needs to work on his release. Seems a bit slow and low angle that led to several blocks. That being said, it was his first pro game and Mitchel Robinson is a damn good defender.

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I've pointed this out repeatedly, but I'll keep doing so until everyone criticising Zion for looking a little out of sorts stops:

The Knicks started 4 players yesterday who will be legitimate rotation players for an NBA team this year, and that includes 3 players who STARTED a bunch of games for an NBA team last year.

Knox clocked over 2100 NBA minutes last season.
Mitchell Robinson clocked over 1200 NBA minutes last season and was 2nd in the league in blocks per game.
Trier also clocked over 1200 NBA minutes last season.

If anyone is shocked that they looked good, they should remember that it was essentially Zion Williamson, Kenrich Williams, Frank Jackson, and some undrafted free agents vs the 2018-19 New York Knicks.

He showed the ability that should make anyone that doesn't watch college basketball salivate.

He made a few mistakes that should allow him to see what he needs to work on going into TC to help him adjust into the NBA playstyle.

Earthquake and banged knees aside, it was great.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

I've pointed this out repeatedly, but I'll keep doing so until everyone criticising Zion for looking a little out of sorts stops:

The Knicks started 4 players yesterday who will be legitimate rotation players for an NBA team this year, and that includes 3 players who STARTED a bunch of games for an NBA team last year.

Knox clocked over 2100 NBA minutes last season.
Mitchell Robinson clocked over 1200 NBA minutes last season and was 2nd in the league in blocks per game.
Trier also clocked over 1200 NBA minutes last season.

If anyone is shocked that they looked good, they should remember that it was essentially Zion Williamson, Kenrich Williams, Frank Jackson, and some undrafted free agents vs the 2018-19 New York Knicks.

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This is weird because it starts off like you're chastising the guy but then the post is really just agreeing with him but expounding on his point.

It's a rebirth to the forum. We don't have to respond to every post we disagree with. Let things breath. Give posters space to grow. Feeling the flow. Working it. Working it.

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Originally Posted by msusousaphone

This is weird because it's starts off like you're chastising the guy but then the post is really just agreeing with him but expounding on his point.

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Yeah, I was agreeing and just giving more detail.

He said that Mitchell Robinson was a good defender and that it was Zion's first pro game. That's both true. I just added that the entire Knicks roster is kinda over-powered for Summer League and is filled with way more NBA experience than most other SL rosters.

I guess when you're the Knicks, you gotta go all in on that Summer League championship because its the only chance you're gonna have of winning anything.

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Originally Posted by bradael

Needs to work on his release. Seems a bit slow and low angle that led to several blocks. That being said, it was his first pro game and Mitchel Robinson is a damn good defender.

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Dont know about "damn good". He got a couple blocks but he also fouled Zion 3 times in 9 minutes.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

Dont know about "damn good". He got a couple blocks but he also fouled Zion 3 times in 9 minutes.

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He's a damn good one on one defender, not a great team defender at this point in his career.

The problem is that Zion is designed to destroy one on one defenders. Robinson just wasn't strong enough to actually guard him one on one. Got outmuscled.

There was a play where Zion drove and hit Robinson and Robinson flew back like 4 feet and looked like he'd been shellshocked.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Yeah, I was agreeing and just giving more detail.

He said that Mitchell Robinson was a good defender and that it was Zion's first pro game. That's both true. I just added that the entire Knicks roster is kinda over-powered for Summer League and is filled with way more NBA experience than most other SL rosters.

I guess when you're the Knicks, you gotta go all in on that Summer League championship because its the only chance you're gonna have of winning anything.

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Well efff. I read the first part like you went off on the poor guy. My bad and my apologies.

New personal rule: First cup of coffee must be finished before posting.

ZION is so impressive.honestly, he reminded me of Shaq. I’m so glad we have him. Can’t wait till he’s on court with Jrue, Reddick, Favors and Ball


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by bradael

Needs to work on his release. Seems a bit slow and low angle that led to several blocks. That being said, it was his first pro game and Mitchel Robinson is a damn good defender.

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It is very slow and low. I am sure the coaches will work with him on that.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

It is very slow and low. I am sure the coaches will work with him on that.

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Zion's shot isn't absolutely completely busted like, say, MKG or Lonzo. But it does need work. Luckily, we have a pretty solid shooting staff, so that should help.

Zion needs to tuck his elbow, adjust his fingers as the ball comes off, and bring his release point up. That's all very fixable on a 19 year old who just started shooting in the last 8 months or so.

My opinion, great first showing and expected.

Pros:

Mitchell Robinson is 7-1 and like Pelicandae said logged heavy NBA minutes.
I was kind of looking forward to seeing him guarded by a big man In post and he basically outmuscled Mitchell and got fouled after Mitchell tried to cheat for the ball. Again brutally out muscles him.

Also paid attention to what I didn’t see. First Zion basket, he sealed a player his own size. I think the fact that opposing teams will be reluctant to put people his own height on him is scary for the league because unlike say a Giannis, he’s willing to post them up.

Cons:

I’m nervous about his ball handling right now. I need to see more, but nervous if hes not starting and finishing in his spots. Year 2 and 3 I think he’ll be a monster bc or improved ball handling. Right now, he needs to keep it very simple until he gets more confident in his handle.

Will need load management guru for him. I don’t think he’s conditioned enough right now and with the weight he carries, you can see the pace is strange for him right now. Out of halftime...talking the start of 3rd quarter he was still obviously sweating. He needs to get like Lebron and put 1 mil a year into his body.

Other than that, I think he’s amazing.

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Originally Posted by Wowowowow

My opinion, great first showing and expected.

Pros:

Mitchell Robinson is 7-1 and like Pelicandae said logged heavy NBA minutes.
I was kind of looking forward to seeing him guarded by a big man In post and he basically outmuscled Mitchell and got fouled after Mitchell tried to cheat for the ball. Again brutally out muscles him.

Also paid attention to what I didn’t see. First Zion basket, he sealed a player his own size. I think the fact that opposing teams will be reluctant to put people his own height on him is scary for the league because unlike say a Giannis, he’s willing to post them up.

Cons:

I’m nervous about his ball handling right now. I need to see more, but nervous if hes not starting and finishing in his spots. Year 2 and 3 I think he’ll be a monster bc or improved ball handling. Right now, he needs to keep it very simple until he gets more confident in his handle.

Will need load management guru for him. I don’t think he’s conditioned enough right now and with the weight he carries, you can see the pace is strange for him right now. Out of halftime...talking the start of 3rd quarter he was still obviously sweating. He needs to get like Lebron and put 1 mil a year into his body.

Other than that, I think he’s amazing.

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Pretty sure Nelson is going to design a program for him.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Zion's shot isn't absolutely completely busted like, say, MKG or Lonzo. But it does need work. Luckily, we have a pretty solid shooting staff, so that should help.

Zion needs to tuck his elbow, adjust his fingers as the ball comes off, and bring his release point up. That's all very fixable on a 19 year old who just started shooting in the last 8 months or so.

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While I certainly hope he can improve his shooting, there are countless examples of guys with broken jump shots that enter the league and DON'T end up fixing it. People love saying things like, "he's young and with NBA coaching, he'll fix it" as if it's a guarantee.

If his elbow doesn't feel natural tucked, he will likely never shoot that way. If his release point feels natural where it is, it won't change.

The more he misses, the more he'll start thinking. The more people talk about his form, the more he'll question it. Next thing you know, you have Lonzo. An ugly looking shot that was an effective 41% from 3 in college that became a low 30's 3 point shooter as a pro. He's such an explosive athlete that I worry he'll struggle to develop the finesse and touch needed to be a consistent shooter in the NBA.

As far as the game last night, he did the same things he did well in college, which is finish at the rim and create highlights. He struggled with his conditioning and shooting. There's not much else to draw from 9 minutes of summer league ball where it's obvious there is no continuity on the team.

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Originally Posted by socbe7

The more he misses, the more he'll start thinking. The more people talk about his form, the more he'll question it. Next thing you know, you have Lonzo. An ugly looking shot that was an effective 41% from 3 in college that became a low 30's 3 point shooter as a pro. He's such an explosive athlete that I worry he'll struggle to develop the finesse and touch needed to be a consistent shooter in the NBA.

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That's true, but there are also many many NBA athletes who come into the league with a questionable or imperfect jump shot, and DO go on to make the necessary adjustments to become capable shooters.

Only time will tell which category Zion falls into, but one encouraging sign is the fact that you doesn't NEED to ''develop the finesse and touch''. He already has fantastic touch around the basket and from out to even as far as 8 feet or so. Of course that needs to be extended, but it's not like we're dealing with an absolute unknown here: we're dealing with someone who has already shown plenty of signs of high level touch.

Lonzo's shot wasn't a case of ''it was good, then people started questioning it, then he doubted it, then it was broken.'' His shot was broken from the beginning, but worked at a college level (despite people pointing out that it was broken then) because of the inferior defenses and the shorter three point line. Then he got into the NBA, got contested better, and the line got further away, and the brokenness of his shot was exposed. It didn't just become broken as a product of doubt picked up from criticism: it was FINE in college despite immense criticism then. It was just a broken shot, waiting for the conditions wherein the faults would become fatal. That's what happened.

Zion has no such problems. He's 19 years old. His shot needs adjusting, but it's not completely mangled from day one. He has an insane work ethic and fantastic natural touch and feel for the game. There's no guarantee he'll become a super shooter, but the potential is as there for him as it is for almost anyone.

I had another idiot on Twitter tell me that Zion sucked last night. I was like what game did you watch cause we for sure didn’t watch the same game last night? He looked better than most rookies look in their very first summer league game. Haters gonna hate!

I thought he looked great in his few minutes. I’m glad he’s done for the summer league. Now I want to see Hayes, NAW, & Didi. I wish Nicolo Melli was playing.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

That's true, but there are also many many NBA athletes who come into the league with a questionable or imperfect jump shot, and DO go on to make the necessary adjustments to become capable shooters.

Only time will tell which category Zion falls into, but one encouraging sign is the fact that you doesn't NEED to ''develop the finesse and touch''. He already has fantastic touch around the basket and from out to even as far as 8 feet or so. Of course that needs to be extended, but it's not like we're dealing with an absolute unknown here: we're dealing with someone who has already shown plenty of signs of high level touch.

Lonzo's shot wasn't a case of ''it was good, then people started questioning it, then he doubted it, then it was broken.'' His shot was broken from the beginning, but worked at a college level (despite people pointing out that it was broken then) because of the inferior defenses and the shorter three point line. Then he got into the NBA, got contested better, and the line got further away, and the brokenness of his shot was exposed. It didn't just become broken as a product of doubt picked up from criticism: it was FINE in college despite immense criticism then. It was just a broken shot, waiting for the conditions wherein the faults would become fatal. That's what happened.

Zion has no such problems. He's 19 years old. His shot needs adjusting, but it's not completely mangled from day one. He has an insane work ethic and fantastic natural touch and feel for the game. There's no guarantee he'll become a super shooter, but the potential is as there for him as it is for almost anyone.

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I almost included this in the last post because I knew the "counter argument" would be distance and defense. That argument would be valid except Lonzo hit many NBA range and longer 3's in college with ease and he's missed a ton of wide open NBA threes.

Confidence is a major part of basketball and particulary shooting. Lonzo was king in college. Confidence through the roof despite noise about his ugly shot. When you come into the league as a rookie and all of the sudden you're not so great anymore, the confidence plummets and you let that noise creep in between the ears.

I'm not comparing Zion's shot to Lonzo's. Just pointing out the fact that trying to "fix" a shot can not only fail, but can destroy someone's will to even want to shoot it anymore.

Zion is not in shape. That is the main reason that he is not playing in any more SL games. Most injuries occur when players are not in shape. He will develop, in due time.

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Originally Posted by JimmieZ

Zion is not in shape. That is the main reason that he is not playing in any more SL games. Most injuries occur when players are not in shape. He will develop, in due time.

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He took a knee to knee it has nothing to do with being in shape.

I'll bite. I can buy the "out of shape" angle. It's just odd to be this super cautious after a knee to knee. You don't get held out indefinitely for that. There's zero chance of a reoccurrence short of banging someone else's knee. There is a much stronger risk of injury to someone playing as hard as Zion plays when he isn't in perfect shape.

And again, he is being wined and dined. Going on tour after tour. Had his schedule disrupted. I am not knocking him for being a bit out of shape. He should be. He deserves the respite. But there's no denying that he was....and it really is kinda dangerous because he doesn't have a coast. It's all out.

There's enough smoke there to be plausible.

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Originally Posted by DaPelFromHell

I had another idiot on
Twitter tell me that Zion sucked last night. I was like what game did you watch cause we for sure didn’t watch the same game last night? He looked better than most rookies look in their very first summer league game. Haters gonna hate!

I thought he looked great in his few minutes. I’m glad he’s done for the summer league. Now I want to see Hayes, NAW, & Didi. I wish Nicolo Melli was playing.

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Definitely someone trolling.

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Originally Posted by msusousaphone

I'll bite. I can buy the "out of shape" angle. It's just odd to be this super cautious after a knee to knee. You don't get held out indefinitely for that. There's zero chance of a reoccurrence short of banging someone else's knee. There is a much stronger risk of injury to someone playing as hard as Zion plays when he isn't in perfect shape.

And again, he is being wined and dined. Going on tour after tour. Had his schedule disrupted. I am not knocking him for being a bit out of shape. He should be. He deserves the respite. But there's no denying that he was....and it really is kinda dangerous because he doesn't have a coast. It's all out.

There's enough smoke there to be plausible.



Definitely someone trolling.

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Most top 20 picks are being held out for minor injuries. Matter of fact the only top picks I know that have played at all are Zion, Barrett, and Herro.

Some major fleecing going on for the poor souls that paid all that money for SL. I could have gone, but no thanks.