Gordon is NOT to blame for Jrue's stuggles

The puzzling thing is that we say that Eric Gordon does not fit with Jrue because Gordon needs the ball in his hands and so does Jrue. However, Gordon's usage is the lowest of the 3 guards...and the eye test certainly suggests that Gordon isn't used in the offense as much and goes through stretches without any touches (take tonight's first qtr for example--Gordon did not get many touches ). Most thought that we would share the PG duties in the starting lineup but that simply hasn't happened. Jrue has control of the ball and the offense.

We would like to say Jrue's game is hurt by playing with a guy in Gordon who is better served with the ball in his hands as well. But Gordon is pretty much spotting up in the corner and not handling the ball. So this version of Gordon wouldn't hurt Jrue's game you would think, right? I don't think it is as easy as getting rid of Gordon and our problems are solved. Jrue's problem lies within the offense and the 4 other players on the court, and not just Gordon. I know McNamara did a great piece that broke down all the numbers and a lot of people are now blaming Gordon for Jrue's lackluster play of late (forgetting the fact he was going up against Bradley, Indiana's D, and Miami's D). I think there is some truth to those numbers but they hardly tell me that Gordon is the reason Jrue doesn't play well. There are other variables to it and what other players are on the court along with them. It is not like Gordon is handling the ball and taking a lot of shots. Quite frankly, he isn't used as much as we expected.

So basically how can we possibly blame Gordon for Jrue's troubles if Gordon is not taking shots away from him or controlling the ball? It is the offense and Jrue's mindset and NOT Gordon that is the issue.

Yes, I am in favor of trading Gordon but we are getting carried away by blaming everything on him. Shame on you!! The problems are much bigger than that. Jrue is a young guy. He doesn't have it all figured out. It takes time. He will get there but blaming Gordon is just silly! As for Gordon, his contract is to blame, not himself! Let's please differentiate between the two. He is not a ball stopper like Rudy Gay is that takes shots away from Holiday.

Personally, it looked like Holiday's game really stepped up once Ryno was inserted into the starting lineup when AD went down to get a floor spacer on the court more with him. His numbers were subpar at the beginning of the season when Ryno was out altogether and now his subpar play has returned. Again, more than just the Jrue/Gordon domino...there are multiple variables in play.

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Originally Posted by PelicanFever

The puzzling thing is that we say that Eric Gordon does not fit with Jrue because Gordon needs the ball in his hands and so does Jrue. However, Gordon's usage is the lowest of the 3 guards...and the eye test certainly suggests that Gordon isn't used in the offense as much and goes through stretches without any touches (take tonight's first qtr for example--Gordon did not get many touches ). Most thought that we would share the PG duties in the starting lineup but that simply hasn't happened. Jrue has control of the ball and the offense.

We would like to say Jrue's game is hurt by playing with a guy in Gordon who is better served with the ball in his hands as well. But Gordon is pretty much spotting up in the corner and not handling the ball. So this version of Gordon wouldn't hurt Jrue's game you would think, right? I don't think it is as easy as getting rid of Gordon and our problems are solved. Jrue's problem lies within the offense and the 4 other players on the court, and not just Gordon. I know McNamara did a great piece that broke down all the numbers and a lot of people are now blaming Gordon for Jrue's lackluster play of late (forgetting the fact he was going up against Bradley, Indiana's D, and Miami's D). I think there is some truth to those numbers but they hardly tell me that Gordon is the reason Jrue doesn't play well. There are other variables to it and what other players are on the court along with them. It is not like Gordon is handling the ball and taking a lot of shots. Quite frankly, he isn't used as much as we expected.

So basically how can we possibly blame Gordon for Jrue's troubles if Gordon is not taking shots away from him or controlling the ball? It is the offense and Jrue's mindset and NOT Gordon that is the issue.

Yes, I am in favor of trading Gordon but we are getting carried away by blaming everything on him. Shame on you!! The problems are much bigger than that. Jrue is a young guy. He doesn't have it all figured out. It takes time. He will get there but blaming Gordon is just silly! As for Gordon, his contract is to blame, not himself! Let's please differentiate between the two. He is not a ball stopper like Rudy Gay is that takes shots away from Holiday.

Personally, it looked like Holiday's game really stepped up once Ryno was inserted into the starting lineup when AD went down to get a floor spacer on the court more with him. His numbers were subpar at the beginning of the season when Ryno was out altogether and now his subpar play has returned. Again, more than just the Jrue/Gordon domino...there are multiple variables in play.

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If a person says - "Jrue Holiday does not play well with Eric Gordon."

I never assumed that sentence was blaming it on Gordon.

If you go to nbawowy it shows MM cherry picked his stats to imply that EG can not play with Holiday.

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Originally Posted by durun

If you go to nbawowy it shows MM cherry picked his stats to imply that EG can not play with Holiday.

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Care to explain?

*sigh* here we go again

What's explainrd Is why you never provided the site for your stats. BTW go to BSS and read Jerry V's comments about your article

They dont play well together right now but that comes with experience....the difference between a team like Boston or Miami when assembled...they were older and ready to share and be selfless...Our team is young and needs to figure it out so ultimately time will hopefully proved that can happen.

I'd prefer not to trade Gordon but wouldn't knock it if we got good value...

Why does it matter where he gets his stats all the sites should provide the same so go fact check and refute them yourself if you want. If you don't like someone's POV come up with a counterargument don't just scream bloody murder

You write a novel and don't give any stats to back up your argument.

For example you say that Gordon sits in the corner and spots up. But he is taking career low 3pt attempts this season.
You say Gordon's usage is so low that he isn't affecting Jrue. But Gordon is actually only taking 1 less shot per game than he did last year.

I'd you look at all of Gordon's other stats they are roughly the same as his career averages. Except for one. FTAs per game. He is getting less than half the FTAs this season than his peak season. So if he's taking less 3s but the amount of shots per game is only down one what's he actually doing with the ball?

Has anyone seen Gordon pull-up jumper almost ever? Because I can't remember him taking a dribble, drive, jumper at all. From the eye test it sure seems to me that Gordon is taking more shots while driving to the basket but he's not getting the foul calls he used to. His assist rate and rebound rate is lower than Tyreke too. So he doesn't pass the ball as much and doesn't rebound after a miss as well.

Personally I think it's easy to see that Gordon's game doesn't mesh with Jrue's.

If you go to the site and look at scoring index you will discover that EG is the Pels most complete guard. Gordon's SI score is higher than Holiday and Evans.

MM's stats measure scoring efficiency. There are times when all three are on the court at the same time. If you calculate the minutes that JH and TE are playing without EG, do you get the same results and what is the sample size. Holiday may less effective as a shooter with EG because he is playing more minutes against the opponents starters.

nbawowy provides the formulas for terms and stats provided. For example scoring index and efficiency may be measured differently at another site.

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Originally Posted by durun

If you go to the site and look at scoring index you will discover that EG is the Pels most complete guard. Gordon's SI score is higher than Holiday and Evans.

MM's stats measure scoring efficiency. There are times when all three are on the court at the same time. If you calculate the minutes that JH and TE are playing without EG, do you get the same results and what is the sample size. Holiday may less effective as a shooter with EG because he is playing more minutes against the opponents starters.

nbawowy provides the formulas for terms and stats provided. For example scoring index and efficiency may be measured differently at another site.

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As I have always said - Go ahead and provide your own data if you disagree with mine. I looked through it all and couldn't find any data that led to the conclusion that Jrue Holiday, or the team for that matter, is better with Eric Gordon on the court than off. I went into the piece with no agenda. A couple of people were arguing over a topic, so I went into the numbers to find the answer and I was blown away by the findings.

So, again, it is so easy to point at somebody who is trying to present information and say, "Well that doesn't account for this and that and this." Easy to be the skeptic. The hard part is to find and present information yourself. If the criteria for presenting information was that everything you present had to be 100% certain and is unable to be debunked by any data, be it formal or informal, then we might as well shut down all message boards, blogs, newspapers, etc.

I presented facts. Nothing I put in that piece was untrue. You may disagree with my conclusion or the sample size - that's your choice. But I say, present some facts that show any other type of conclusion. Then we can discuss. I have yet to find any.

http://www.justsaypictures.com/images/statistics.jpg

If anything these players need to learn how to move the ball. Players like Morrow barely get any looks because we dont create any seperation except on the occasional drive and kick. Monty also stresses his bonzai attack the paint philosophy (which works on terrible teams), but we need to take some 3's as well. We just don't take enough shots from behind the ark which allows teams to crowd the paint and neglect their perimeter defensive duties. Is Monty the right coach for this team? I have my doubts, but Ryno is unfortunately out so he can escape some criticism for now. Side note: Aminu needs to continue working on that jumper bc it is getting better.

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Originally Posted by Mythrol

You write a novel and don't give any stats to back up your argument.

For example you say that Gordon sits in the corner and spots up. But he is taking career low 3pt attempts this season.
You say Gordon's usage is so low that he isn't affecting Jrue. But Gordon is actually only taking 1 less shot per game than he did last year.

I'd you look at all of Gordon's other stats they are roughly the same as his career averages. Except for one. FTAs per game. He is getting less than half the FTAs this season than his peak season. So if he's taking less 3s but the amount of shots per game is only down one what's he actually doing with the ball?

Has anyone seen Gordon pull-up jumper almost ever? Because I can't remember him taking a dribble, drive, jumper at all. From the eye test it sure seems to me that Gordon is taking more shots while driving to the basket but he's not getting the foul calls he used to. His assist rate and rebound rate is lower than Tyreke too. So he doesn't pass the ball as much and doesn't rebound after a miss as well.

Personally I think it's easy to see that Gordon's game doesn't mesh with Jrue's.

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Gordon's usage is 5 points lower than last yr. I think the eye test is clear though. I mean how many times have we said that Gordon has been invisible? He is not invisible because he is taking shots and missing but because he is not touching the ball. Last month, Monty himself even said that they have been using Gordon as a decoy. People think that Holiday can't play with Gordon because Gordon is a ball-dominant guard and that simply has NOT been true this year. That is the point that I was trying to make clear. If he can't play with Gordon, it is for another reason but NOT because Gordon is a ball-dominant guard because Gordon has taken a backseat this year in getting less touches.



Pelicans coach Monty Williams on Eric Gordon: ``Eric doesn’t get the ball as much. A lot of times teams take him out. He’s a valuable decoy for us.

http://www.nola.com/pelicans/team/13...lliams-on.html

http://theadvocate.com/news/neworlea...yed-by-play-of

“(Holiday-Gordon) have been playing well, but they haven’t even scratched the surface of what they can become as a tandem,” Pelicans coach Monty Williams said. “(Against Memphis) was a glimpse of what they can do. … I think those two can become so much better when they learn to play off each other.”

I also wanted to bring up that quote because we knew going into the season it takes times for players to learn to play off each other, even in Miami's case a few years back. A couple months into the season and people are being THIS impatient? I thought people had more realistic expectations going into the season. Before the season started, most thought they were an ideal fit and now people are giving up on that idea after two months? Yes, Gordon should be moved based on his contract and his contract alone. I agree and have proposed trades myself involving him. But the patience has grown thin for the Holiday/Gordon backcourt when we all knew this season was about being a process of growing together. It is a step that can't be skipped. No shortcuts allowed. When and if we do move Gordon, this fact will still apply because our players will have to grow with our new players.

I dont think Gordon is ball dominant at all. Actually, I hate that he disappears so much. I simply think the roles are not clear when those guys are out there and Jrue doesn't have as much freedom when he is out there.

They run these sets that take 15 to 18 seconds to set up that go absolutely nowhere and then settle for some bad shot. When Tyreke is out there, it is more chaos. Drive to the hoop or drive and kick. There doesn't seem to be much play calling. I think Jrue excels in that kind of chaos.

I think a lot of it comes back to what Amin said before the year started - "Will Monty throw away the playbook and just let these guys go?"
When he does, it is exciting and usually effective. I would call Tyreke the point guard in those situations. To me, that is the big problem - Jrue is really an off guard. When he plays with Eric, he is forced to be a point guard. When he plays with Tyreke, he can be an attacker.

Jrue should bring the ball up the court, and Gordon should initiate the offense in the PnR. They can both play off the ball, but Gordon is a better attacker.

For what it's worth, I agree with Monty that, in due time, they will learn to play off each other. Their games are very complimentary.

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Originally Posted by PelicanFever

Gordon's usage is 5 points lower than last yr. I think the eye test is clear though. I mean how many times have we said that Gordon has been invisible? He is not invisible because he is taking shots and missing but because he is not touching the ball. Last month, Monty himself even said that they have been using Gordon as a decoy. People think that Holiday can't play with Gordon because Gordon is a ball-dominant guard and that simply has NOT been true this year. That is the point that I was trying to make clear. If he can't play with Gordon, it is for another reason but NOT because Gordon is a ball-dominant guard because Gordon has taken a backseat this year in getting less touches.



Pelicans coach Monty Williams on Eric Gordon: ``Eric doesn’t get the ball as much. A lot of times teams take him out. He’s a valuable decoy for us.

http://www.nola.com/pelicans/team/13...lliams-on.html

http://theadvocate.com/news/neworlea...yed-by-play-of

“(Holiday-Gordon) have been playing well, but they haven’t even scratched the surface of what they can become as a tandem,” Pelicans coach Monty Williams said. “(Against Memphis) was a glimpse of what they can do. … I think those two can become so much better when they learn to play off each other.”

I also wanted to bring up that quote because we knew going into the season it takes times for players to learn to play off each other, even in Miami's case a few years back. A couple months into the season and people are being THIS impatient? I thought people had more realistic expectations going into the season. Before the season started, most thought they were an ideal fit and now people are giving up on that idea after two months? Yes, Gordon should be moved based on his contract and his contract alone. I agree and have proposed trades myself involving him. But the patience has grown thin for the Holiday/Gordon backcourt when we all knew this season was about being a process of growing together. It is a step that can't be skipped. No shortcuts allowed. When and if we do move Gordon, this fact will still apply because our players will have to grow with our new players.

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15million dollar decoy

God, decoy now? That makes me remember bush, he was such a useful decoy, and paid like a top player he never was and never has been. Ugh.

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Originally Posted by nolaslim213

Jrue should bring the ball up the court, and Gordon should initiate the offense in the PnR. They can both play off the ball, but Gordon is a better attacker.

For what it's worth, I agree with Monty that, in due time, they will learn to play off each other. Their games are very complimentary.

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Time was emphasized before the season but now that the season is upon us, we don't want to wait for our dessert, we want to eat it now! It is not just this, it seems like a lot of us on this board are being impatient when it comes to a lot of things regarding this team. Patience people! Patience!!!!

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Originally Posted by PelicanFever

Gordon's usage is 5 points lower than last yr. I think the eye test is clear though. I mean how many times have we said that Gordon has been invisible? He is not invisible because he is taking shots and missing but because he is not touching the ball. Last month, Monty himself even said that they have been using Gordon as a decoy. People think that Holiday can't play with Gordon because Gordon is a ball-dominant guard and that simply has NOT been true this year. That is the point that I was trying to make clear. If he can't play with Gordon, it is for another reason but NOT because Gordon is a ball-dominant guard because Gordon has taken a backseat this year in getting less touches.



Pelicans coach Monty Williams on Eric Gordon: ``Eric doesn’t get the ball as much. A lot of times teams take him out. He’s a valuable decoy for us.

http://www.nola.com/pelicans/team/13...lliams-on.html

http://theadvocate.com/news/neworlea...yed-by-play-of

“(Holiday-Gordon) have been playing well, but they haven’t even scratched the surface of what they can become as a tandem,” Pelicans coach Monty Williams said. “(Against Memphis) was a glimpse of what they can do. … I think those two can become so much better when they learn to play off each other.”

I also wanted to bring up that quote because we knew going into the season it takes times for players to learn to play off each other, even in Miami's case a few years back. A couple months into the season and people are being THIS impatient? I thought people had more realistic expectations going into the season. Before the season started, most thought they were an ideal fit and now people are giving up on that idea after two months? Yes, Gordon should be moved based on his contract and his contract alone. I agree and have proposed trades myself involving him. But the patience has grown thin for the Holiday/Gordon backcourt when we all knew this season was about being a process of growing together. It is a step that can't be skipped. No shortcuts allowed. When and if we do move Gordon, this fact will still apply because our players will have to grow with our new players.

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You posted one stat through that entire long write up. A usage % drop that doesn't really mean anything other than the ball doesn't go through Gordon's hands as much this year. Even with a 5% drop in usage he is only averaging one less shot. That to me sounds like Gordon stands around on offense and when he does touch it he attempts a shot. He just goes through more possessions where he does nothing this year.

If anything that stat makes me not like Gordon more. That makes sense though because MM has said multiple times about Gordon disappearing on offense. This helps support that. So the one stat that you mention actually makes Gordon look worse.

The rest of it I don't really care about because it doesn't address Jrue playing far better with Evans in. Evans has been here less time than Gordon yet they are able to already pair up nice. Also no player that's on a max contract should be used solely as a decoy and I'd hope that if you're on a max, you should be pretty hard to shut down.

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Originally Posted by Kurgan

God, decoy now? That makes me remember bush, he was such a useful decoy, and paid like a top player he never was and never has been. Ugh.

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Bush was a spectacular redzone weapon, and one of the most influential players in our playoff push. People like to clown on Bush, but the guy drew defenders away because he was incredible with space. He may not have been the running back we hoped for, but I guarantee you our offense suffered once Bush left.

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Originally Posted by JJackisangry

Bush was a spectacular redzone weapon, and one of the most influential players in our playoff push. People like to clown on Bush, but the guy drew defenders away because he was incredible with space. He may not have been the running back we hoped for, but I guarantee you our offense suffered once Bush left.

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Bush is a poor man's Sporles.

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Originally Posted by JJackisangry

Bush was a spectacular redzone weapon, and one of the most influential players in our playoff push. People like to clown on Bush, but the guy drew defenders away because he was incredible with space. He may not have been the running back we hoped for, but I guarantee you our offense suffered once Bush left.

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uummmmm correct me if I am wrong but the year bush left we replaced him with a cheaper sproles and broke all the greatest show on turf records and drew broke marino's record and we went 13-3 so I think our offense did better without him and with a cheaper replacement

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Originally Posted by jgman

uummmmm correct me if I am wrong but the year bush left we replaced him with a cheaper sproles and broke all the greatest show on turf records and drew broke marino's record and we went 13-3 so I think our offense did better without him and with a cheaper replacement

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He wanted a bigger role plain and simple. Since he has left us he has averaged 1000 yards rushing per season. Bush got a lot of hate because he was drafted so high but he was a productive back who didn't like the RB by committee scheme; not a decoy by any means.

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Originally Posted by RaisingTheBar

He wanted a bigger role plain and simple. Since he has left us he has averaged 1000 yards rushing per season. Bush got a lot of hate because he was drafted so high but he was a productive back who didn't like the RB by committee scheme; not a decoy by any means.

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he was certainly used as a decoy at times, and I was just responding to the statement about the saints offense suffering after he left, it didnt