Trade proposal NO/CLE/MIN

I'm have been preaching patience for this team every since we traded Paul. Now that we have what many believe is the franchise cornerstone player I think it's even more vital to build slowly around that player.

So here's my trade idea to get more young talent on this team.

NO sends

E. Gordon and R. Lopez to Wolves; G. Vasquez and J. Smith to the Cavs

MIN sends

D. Williams and 2013 unprotected pick to Cavs; A. Kirilenko and L. Ridnour to Pelicans

Cavs sends

A. Gee to Wolves; 2013 unprotected pick to Pelicans

NO receives

A. Kirilenko, L. Ridnour, and Cavs 2013 unprotected pick

MIN receives

E. Gordon, A. Gee, and R. Lopez

Cavs receives

D. Williams, G. Vasquez, J. Smith, and Wolves unprotected 2013 pick


Pelicans- Gordon has not lived up to the pretty much all due to injuries. With an opt out clause the FO only has control over EJ's rights for two more years. So we move him and other pieces that aren't likely to be apart of this teams future(Vasquez, Lopez, and Smith). In return we get what is a guaranteed top 5 pick to pair with our own guaranteed top 8 pick. Which almost insures we get 2 of the top 6 prospects(Noel, McElmore, Porter, Bennett, Burke, Oladipo). Kirilenko and Ridnour contract expire at the end of 2013-14. We'll have more cap space after this deal to acquire any player/s this year than before the trade. Most importantly we will have the cap space to lock up those young guys on rookie contracts moving forward.

Wolves- Kevin Love signed an extension that only locks him up through the 2015-16 season(same as Gordon). So the sense of urgency in Minnesota is going to be much higher for the Wolves than most teams. While Williams started showing flashes of being a really good NBA player, do the Wolves have the time to wait? Insert Gordon a guy with a ton of potential can take much of the scoring pressure off of Love and enough of the ball handling duties to help Rubio. Provided Gordon can pass a physical and give the Wolves team doctors no indication any of his past injuries are lingering. Lopez gives them some security if they aren't able to re-sign Pekovic. Alonzo Gee will fill the void left by losing both Williams and Kirilenko. With this expected to be a weak draft I don't think the Wolves will mind giving up what is likely a bottom of the lottery pick.

Cavs- If we are planning to surround Davis with talented players that are his peers Cleveland will be looking to do the same thing with Irving. Adding Williams to a cast of Irving, Thompson, Waiters, Zellers, and who ever they draft this year with there guaranteed lottery pick from MIN can be very special in about 2-3 years. Right when the Heat should be either breaking up or cooling down. Giving up what could be the 1st overall pick isn't really that big of a deal. Most analyst feels they would trade down even if they got the 1st pick. With Varejao and Zellers there's no need for Noel and Waiters makes picking McElmore very unlikely. Those are the consensus top two players. The only player that would interest the Cavs is Porter, but getting Williams in theory would make that no longer a need. Vasquez will become a nice insurance policy for Irving who has had some durability issues. While Jason Smith adds some needed depth to their front court.

Pass. One extra young player from a weak draft and fill ins (at this point in AK47's career). I do like that we would get out from under Gordon's contract, but talent wise, we just get a crap shoot. I would like to keep Lopez and his team friendly contract as well.

Lemme get this straight:

Pelicans trade Gordon, Lopez, Vasquez and Smith for Kirilenko, the Cavs 2013 unprotected pick and Ridnour

Cavs trade 2013 unprotected pick, Alonzo Gee for Derrick Williams, Vasquez, Smith and Wolves unprotected pick

Min trade 2013 unprotected pick, Kirilenko, Ridnour and Derrick Williams for Gordon,Lopez and Gee?

Why would Minnesota this trade? Kirilenko fits Adelman's offense really well. Gordon's ball dominant ways won't (especially if he plays with Ricky). This is too much for Minnesota to give up considering they are taking the riskiest asset in the bunch.

Cavs will probably be adamant with trading that pick. Much less if it means the difference between drafting Porter and someone like Len or Zeller. They don't fill any particular holes with this trade (they even opened up one HUGE hole and creating more log jam with this one). Derrick Williams is what people call to be a "stretch" big. The sooner people realize, the sooner he'll succeed.

Gordon's value differs depending on which team he's traded. To any team outside Phoenix, regard him as more risk than reward. No way Gordon gets this much value. Lopez + Vasquez < Kirilenko + Ridnour so we're getting so much here. Give and take.

So we trade every single asset we have for AK47 (who is as injury prone as Gordon and plays a position we don't need), Ridnour (a solid back up PG), and a top 5 pick in the worst draft in quite a while? I understand they come off the books next year, but the Pelicans have no reason to trade Gordon while his value is still very low. He's still a potential All-Star if he can ever get back to 100%, and because of that we don't get anywhere near enough in return from this proposal. No thanks.

It's like if there isn't one can't miss prospect, some think that draft is the worst in a while. Hell. Heard some say Kyrie Irving wasn't a true #1 pick, but was going that high by default.

McLemore, Burke, Oladipo, and maybe Bazz could turn into solid players. Which...we kinda need right now. No cornerstone guys, but given that we have our cornerstone, this draft is loaded with lots of 2nd tier guys that we could use.

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Originally Posted by Eman5805

It's like if there isn't one can't miss prospect, some think that draft is the worst in a while. Hell. Heard some say Kyrie Irving wasn't a true #1 pick, but was going that high by default.

McLemore, Burke, Oladipo, and maybe Bazz could turn into solid players. Which...we kinda need right now. No cornerstone guys, but given that we have our cornerstone, this draft is loaded with lots of 2nd tier guys that we could use.

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I agree. Another guy who's a solid starter that belongs in the league is a good thing. Can't all be homeruns.

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Originally Posted by GeauxPelicans

So we trade every single asset we have for AK47 (who is as injury prone as Gordon and plays a position we don't need), Ridnour (a solid back up PG), and a top 5 pick in the worst draft in quite a while? I understand they come off the books next year, but the Pelicans have no reason to trade Gordon while his value is still very low. He's still a potential All-Star if he can ever get back to 100%, and because of that we don't get anywhere near enough in return from this proposal. No thanks.

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Gordon value will most likely only get lower. Again the longer we wait the less time a potential trade partner has to convince Gordon to sign long term. Which limits our trade partners altogether which lessens his value. This doesn't even begin to factor in poor play or God forbid another injury.

I think the weakness of this draft is overhyped. If we can get our hands on Burke and Oladipo I'd be thrilled and there's a high probability of that happening with this trade.

That's a really bad trade for us in terms of value.

Man this is going to be a long offseason:help:

Robin Lopez is a reletively cheap, effective NBA caliber center. Those do not grow on trees. No way he is traded.

Look, Demps and company has been pretty good about not signing bad contracts, but it looks like in the case of Gordon felt compelled to for whatever reason (methinks to show other NBA players that they will give big bucks to top players). I think they are just gonna have to bite the bullet on this one and see the deal to its conclusion and pray that EG gets his cranium out of his posterior long enough to contribute because no one in their right mind will take on that contract with a player with EG's injury history.

Then again, Demps has conned teams like the Wizards and the Raptors to accept our trash contracts in the past, so one never knows.

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Originally Posted by nikkoewan

Lemme get this straight:

Pelicans trade Gordon, Lopez, Vasquez and Smith for Kirilenko, the Cavs 2013 unprotected pick and Ridnour

Cavs trade 2013 unprotected pick, Alonzo Gee for Derrick Williams, Vasquez, Smith and Wolves unprotected pick

Min trade 2013 unprotected pick, Kirilenko, Ridnour and Derrick Williams for Gordon,Lopez and Gee?

Why would Minnesota this trade? Kirilenko fits Adelman's offense really well. Gordon's ball dominant ways won't (especially if he plays with Ricky). This is too much for Minnesota to give up considering they are taking the riskiest asset in the bunch.

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Andrei is 32 years and will be 33 before next season ends. He has his own history of injuries. He is only under contract through the next year. This is not somebody you build around a 24 year old Kevin Love. Gordon is a gamble, but when you are in a position that the Wolves find themselves it's a calculated low risk move for them. Rare is it for a small market teams to get equal value for their stud players.

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Cavs will probably be adamant with trading that pick. Much less if it means the difference between drafting Porter and someone like Len or Zeller. They don't fill any particular holes with this trade (they even opened up one HUGE hole and creating more log jam with this one). Derrick Williams is what people call to be a "stretch" big. The sooner people realize, the sooner he'll succeed.

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I'm assuming you mean adamantly against trading that pick? Which I have already read reports that the Cavs would look to trade down to acquire more assets if they indeed land the top 2 spots. So I don't think them trading down is a stretch. Williams clearly wants to play the 3 and he has the skillset for it. A deal like this will be contingent on the Cavs FO people and how they feel about Williams playing the 3. If they think he can play the 3 he is a much higher ranked prospect than Porter and would be a senior if he was just coming out of Zona.

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Gordon's value differs depending on which team he's traded. To any team outside Phoenix, regard him as more risk than reward. No way Gordon gets this much value. Lopez + Vasquez < Kirilenko + Ridnour so we're getting so much here. Give and take.

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I don't think Kirilenko(as of today) and Ridnour is wealth of talent. Especially when you consider neither player is under contract pass the 2013-14 season. MIN is a team on the verge of being really good or back to the basement. Talented player aren't killing themselves to get into Minneapolis market.

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Originally Posted by Mr. West

That's a really bad trade for us in terms of value.

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Clearly you guys value Vasquez, Lopez and Smith more than I do. I don't think many teams will be clamoring for any of them(maybe Vasquez after that hot season). Nor do I see any of them apart of the long term future.

I mean, if anyone proposed that we could trade Ariza and Okafor to the same team, any team. People would go "Why would they accept that trade?"

It's interesting that we are prone to assume that every GM out there is both competent and/or shares the same opinions of players. Grass is greener mentality doesn't just exist in fans like me that think Brandon Jennings could bring a lot to the team's benefit besides missed shots.

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Originally Posted by cki3915

Robin Lopez is a reletively cheap, effective NBA caliber center. Those do not grow on trees. No way he is traded.

Look, Demps and company has been pretty good about not signing bad contracts, but it looks like in the case of Gordon felt compelled to for whatever reason (methinks to show other NBA players that they will give big bucks to top players). I think they are just gonna have to bite the bullet on this one and see the deal to its conclusion and pray that EG gets his cranium out of his posterior long enough to contribute because no one in their right mind will take on that contract with a player with EG's injury history.

Then again, Demps has conned teams like the Wizards and the Raptors to accept our trash contracts in the past, so one never knows.

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I think Minnesota back is against the wall and that why I choose them. The next year will loom largely over that franchise. If they are unable to get over the hump this year as currently constructed they might as well start shopping Love IMO. Because that starts to put them in a the very same situation we are looking at with Gordon where it may become take whatever or lose the player for nothing.

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Originally Posted by Eman5805

I mean, if anyone proposed that we could trade Ariza and Okafor to the same team, any team. People would go "Why would they accept that trade?"

It's interesting that we are prone to assume that every GM out there is both competent and/or shares the same opinions of players. Grass is greener mentality doesn't just exist in fans like me that think Brandon Jennings could bring a lot to the team's benefit besides missed shots.

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Agreed. I haven't been Demps biggest supporter, but that deal was pure genius.

Like I was stating the Wolves are in a very precarious situation. Not a lot of trade pieces, not expecting a high draft pick, and not a hotbed for free agents. When you couple this with two really good players to build around I can definitely see them swinging for the fence and accepting Gordon. Especially if all it cost them is Kirilenko, Ridnour, and Williams.

So lemme get this straight, if you're the Wolves, you'd rather take your chances on a guy who fits in badly with Rubio (who's not a shooter and CLEARLY operates better with the ball IN his hands) and has a VERY bad injury history over a guy who fits in well with Rubio with a moderate injury history? And I might add, if you're a team that has a need to contend now (as what you state with MIN), you usually go for veterans (young or old). Ridnour is a good player. Slightly better than Vasquez, imo. Age doesn't matter for both Ridnour and Kirilenko -- neither really depend on it. I'd go so far as to think they'd trade that 9th pick for a SG without giving up Kirilenko.

I'm also sure Cleveland would be willing to trade down 2 spots or so (believing that the difference between picking 3 and picking 5 isn't that huge). But to trade down SIX spots? And for what 2 role players and a "young" player who does not fit in with their core at all? Derrick Williams is a scorer. Yes? His skill is scoring. Irving's skill is scoring. Waiter's supposed skill is scoring. Derrick Williams is nowhere near that valuable for Cleveland to pass up on Oladipo/Porter/Noel (whoever they get from those 3) just to get a chance at Derrick and a 9th pick that will be lucky to turn into a role player. There's a reason why trading INTO the top 5 is hard -- that's a real commodity. I have yet to see a team trade OUT of the top 5. The worst I could think of was when POR traded their 3rd pick for a 5th pick. That's it.

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Originally Posted by nikkoewan

So lemme get this straight, if you're the Wolves, you'd rather take your chances on a guy who fits in badly with Rubio (who's not a shooter and CLEARLY operates better with the ball IN his hands) and has a VERY bad injury history over a guy who fits in well with Rubio with a moderate injury history? And I might add, if you're a team that has a need to contend now (as what you state with MIN), you usually go for veterans (young or old). Ridnour is a good player. Slightly better than Vasquez, imo. Age doesn't matter for both Ridnour and Kirilenko -- neither really depend on it. I'd go so far as to think they'd trade that 9th pick for a SG without giving up Kirilenko.

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Matter of opinions. I think Rubio and Gordon can mesh. I think if Rubio was a guy like Westbrook, Jennings, Irving, D.Will, Wall, Curry, Lawson or one of the many scoring PG's it would be a problem. The mere fact that Ridnour and Kirilenko is only under contract one more year is a big enough issue for MIN. They are two solid players, but I don't think either will has the ability to impact Kevin Love's decision.

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I'm also sure Cleveland would be willing to trade down 2 spots or so (believing that the difference between picking 3 and picking 5 isn't that huge). But to trade down SIX spots? And for what 2 role players and a "young" player who does not fit in with their core at all? Derrick Williams is a scorer. Yes? His skill is scoring. Irving's skill is scoring. Waiter's supposed skill is scoring. Derrick Williams is nowhere near that valuable for Cleveland to pass up on Oladipo/Porter/Noel (whoever they get from those 3) just to get a chance at Derrick and a 9th pick that will be lucky to turn into a role player. There's a reason why trading INTO the top 5 is hard -- that's a real commodity. I have yet to see a team trade OUT of the top 5. The worst I could think of was when POR traded their 3rd pick for a 5th pick. That's it.

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Saying 3 scorers can't mesh is like saying Bosh/James/ Wade can't mesh or Duncan/Ginobili/Parker or Durant/Harden/Westbrook.

I'm sure if you grade Oladipo, Porter, Noel, and Williams, Derrick would have the higher grade. So saying he isn't worth the very same pick that will net either of the three makes no sense to me while still on his rookie deal. I agree they may be some concerns about Williams playing the 3. Cleveland is set at pretty much every position. It was injuries to Irving, Varejao and Waiter that really set them back. Getting a solid backup PG and a guy who would grade higher than anybody they are picking in that spot makes prefect sense to me.

AK47 probably opts out of his contract anyway. For someone his age, taking something like 3/$24m is more attractive than $10m next season and taking your chances after that.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

Clearly you guys value Vasquez, Lopez and Smith more than I do. I don't think many teams will be clamoring for any of them(maybe Vasquez after that hot season). Nor do I see any of them apart of the long term future.

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Vasquez is Vasquez, can we get better value for a deal involving just him? Maybe, but what, a late 1st? Lopez is valuable solely because of his contract, and Smith you are just undervaluing. I wouldn't care about losing GV or Lopez, but don't give away Smith.

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Originally Posted by Eman5805

It's like if there isn't one can't miss prospect, some think that draft is the worst in a while. Hell. Heard some say Kyrie Irving wasn't a true #1 pick, but was going that high by default.

McLemore, Burke, Oladipo, and maybe Bazz could turn into solid players. Which...we kinda need right now. No cornerstone guys, but given that we have our cornerstone, this draft is loaded with lots of 2nd tier guys that we could use.

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I agree with Eman also. Several of these players could AT LEAST be solid contributors to a Championship team, and if they reach their ceiling possibly All-Star caliber. I have the patience to see two of these rookies on our roster next season, but I don't think Monty wants to go down that road.

There are so many possible scenarios that Dell has available to him that makes this offseason so interesting. If only Dell would would give the Pelicans Report community an idea of which direction he intends to go, we could narrow our focus and really have some fun!;)

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Originally Posted by RaisingTheBar

Vasquez is Vasquez, can we get better value for a deal involving just him? Maybe, but what, a late 1st? Lopez is valuable solely because of his contract, and Smith you are just undervaluing. I wouldn't care about losing GV or Lopez, but don't give away Smith.

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Even if you tweak the deal and remove Smith it pretty much the same deal. Smith wouldn't be a huge need for the Cavs.

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Originally Posted by Tomdda

I agree with Eman also. Several of these players could AT LEAST be solid contributors to a Championship team, and if they reach their ceiling possibly All-Star caliber. I have the patience to see two of these rookies on our roster next season, but I don't think Monty wants to go down that road.

There are so many possible scenarios that Dell has available to him that makes this offseason so interesting. If only Dell would would give the Pelicans Report community an idea of which direction he intends to go, we could narrow our focus and really have some fun!;)

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My main targets with two top picks are Burke and Oladipo. I think they have the talent and experience to start right away. Both are gym rats that love the game and are self motivated. Just looking at how much both guys games' have elevated just throughout their college careers speaks volumes. When you couple that with the fact I think both have extremely high ceilings I think we will be very fortunate to land both even on a team with little veteran leadership.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

Matter of opinions. I think Rubio and Gordon can mesh. I think if Rubio was a guy like Westbrook, Jennings, Irving, D.Will, Wall, Curry, Lawson or one of the many scoring PG's it would be a problem. The mere fact that Ridnour and Kirilenko is only under contract one more year is a big enough issue for MIN. They are two solid players, but I don't think either will has the ability to impact Kevin Love's decision.

Saying 3 scorers can't mesh is like saying Bosh/James/ Wade can't mesh or Duncan/Ginobili/Parker or Durant/Harden/Westbrook.

I'm sure if you grade Oladipo, Porter, Noel, and Williams, Derrick would have the higher grade. So saying he isn't worth the very same pick that will net either of the three makes no sense to me while still on his rookie deal. I agree they may be some concerns about Williams playing the 3. Cleveland is set at pretty much every position. It was injuries to Irving, Varejao and Waiter that really set them back. Getting a solid backup PG and a guy who would grade higher than anybody they are picking in that spot makes prefect sense to me.

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No Noel would be graded higher by draft scouts. So Will Oladipo. It's probably just you who'll grade him higher. Noel and Oladipo are 3 and 1 year younger than Derrick Williams.

Derrick Williams' skill set is clear (IMO) but people still continue to place a square peg into a round hole.

But it's useless trying to grade Williams compared to the other 2. The other 2 hold something that's very dear to most teams and fans -- potential. Derrick Williams has been for the better part of 2 years, misused and as a consequence his market in the league has been damaged. He doesn't hold the same appeal as he once had (when he was picked 2nd). Draft picks are valuable not only because of the rookie scale contract, but also because it's easy to sell fans to "potential" and "youth" and the "unknown" (ie how a draftee will perform in the NBA after college). Derrick Williams is harder to sell.

Again, look for some precedence -- has there been ANY team in the league that traded OUT of the Top 3 (much less, the Top 5) to get 2 role players and a former top 2 pick who has underachieved the pass season or two?

Let's check:

2012 - no trades out of the top 5
2011 - no trades out of the top 5 (even though MIN tried valiantly to trade out of #2)
2010 - no trades out of the top 5
2009 - one trade out of the top 5 -- MIN acquired the 5th pick for Randy Foye and Mike Miller (an unprecedented stupidity).
2008 - MIN and MEM swapped #3 (Mayo) and #5 (Love)
2007 - BOS traded their 5th pick for a 32 year old (but still productive) Ray Allen.
2006 - CHI and POR swapped #2 and #4 pick
2005 - POR moved down 2 spots, from #3 to #6 while getting 2 picks. (I was mistaken, there was! POR moved OUT of the top 5, into the #6 pick!)
2004 - Washington traded Devin Harris again (#5) for Antawn Jamison
2003 - no trades out of the top 5

So I think the going price for a team moving out of the top 5 is either -- a league known contributor (Allen, Jamison) or that Deron Williams trade, which if I remember correctly, POR did because they were still confident that Sebastian Telfair (their 2004 draftee) would pan out and they had no need for Deron, CP3 or Felton (sorry, just LOL'd a little bit). Can you say the same for CLE? Can you say that they have no need for anybody available in that range? Otto Porter? Nerlens Noel? I doubt. If McLemore was the only player available at #3, sure (which I doubt happens). But even then, I don't see how they trade down six spots to get damaged goods in Derrick Williams (and I think everybody will agree he is damaged goods).

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Originally Posted by nikkoewan

No Noel would be graded higher by draft scouts. So Will Oladipo. It's probably just you who'll grade him higher. Noel and Oladipo are 3 and 1 year younger than Derrick Williams.

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Than why is this draft considered even weaker than the 2011 draft that saw Williams go 2nd? Oladipo is projected any where from 4 to 8. Noel is coming off of major knee injury and is still considered the consensus #1 for most teams.

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Derrick Williams' skill set is clear (IMO) but people still continue to place a square peg into a round hole.

But it's useless trying to grade Williams compared to the other 2. The other 2 hold something that's very dear to most teams and fans -- potential. Derrick Williams has been for the better part of 2 years, misused and as a consequence his market in the league has been damaged. He doesn't hold the same appeal as he once had (when he was picked 2nd). Draft picks are valuable not only because of the rookie scale contract, but also because it's easy to sell fans to "potential" and "youth" and the "unknown" (ie how a draftee will perform in the NBA after college). Derrick Williams is harder to sell.

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Cleveland has a ton of reasons to be optimistic. Despite how you feel about Williams skillset it fits a need for the Cavs. Not to mention they would get two more needs filled for the price of one draft pick.

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Again, look for some precedence -- has there been ANY team in the league that traded OUT of the Top 3 (much less, the Top 5) to get 2 role players and a former top 2 pick who has underachieved the pass season or two?

Let's check:

2012 - no trades out of the top 5
2011 - no trades out of the top 5 (even though MIN tried valiantly to trade out of #2)
2010 - no trades out of the top 5
2009 - one trade out of the top 5 -- MIN acquired the 5th pick for Randy Foye and Mike Miller (an unprecedented stupidity).
2008 - MIN and MEM swapped #3 (Mayo) and #5 (Love)
2007 - BOS traded their 5th pick for a 32 year old (but still productive) Ray Allen.
2006 - CHI and POR swapped #2 and #4 pick
2005 - POR moved down 2 spots, from #3 to #6 while getting 2 picks. (I was mistaken, there was! POR moved OUT of the top 5, into the #6 pick!)
2004 - Washington traded Devin Harris again (#5) for Antawn Jamison
2003 - no trades out of the top 5

So I think the going price for a team moving out of the top 5 is either -- a league known contributor (Allen, Jamison) or that Deron Williams trade, which if I remember correctly, POR did because they were still confident that Sebastian Telfair (their 2004 draftee) would pan out and they had no need for Deron, CP3 or Felton (sorry, just LOL'd a little bit). Can you say the same for CLE? Can you say that they have no need for anybody available in that range? Otto Porter? Nerlens Noel? I doubt. If McLemore was the only player available at #3, sure (which I doubt happens). But even then, I don't see how they trade down six spots to get damaged goods in Derrick Williams (and I think everybody will agree he is damaged goods).

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I think the value of Williams/Vasquez/Smith > Otto Porter. That what it boils down to.

I don't know why you consider Williams damaged goods, but he has shown flashes of being a good NBA player.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

Than why is this draft considered even weaker than the 2011 draft that saw Williams go 2nd? Oladipo is projected any where from 4 to 8. Noel is coming off of major knee injury and is still considered the consensus #1 for most teams.

Cleveland has a ton of reasons to be optimistic. Despite how you feel about Williams skillset it fits a need for the Cavs. Not to mention they would get two more needs filled for the price of one draft pick.

I think the value of Williams/Vasquez/Smith > Otto Porter. That what it boils down to.

I don't know why you consider Williams damaged goods, but he has shown flashes of being a good NBA player.

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1. Again, it's pointless to compare Derrick Williams "the draftee" to Derrick Williams "the 2-yr NBA player". He's been dissected in the NBA. That's a reality. You can't trade Derrick Williams straight up for, say, Kawhi Leonard now, can you? Even though Derrick Williams was 2nd pick in the 2011 draft, Kawhi was 15th. On draft night, I'm pretty sure trading 15th for 2nd would be great. right? 2 years later, with both draftees now with 2 years of NBA experience, you can't say the same.

Same with using Derrick Williams "draft position" and where it holds in the draft of 2013.

And no, I don't think Williams "fits" a need for the Cavs. Again, I'll bet that if CLE traded out of the #3 pick to drop SIX spots, they'll get more than 2 role players and a damaged former #2 pick.