N/P - Wiggins discussion {moved}

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

On the subject of Griffin: how much of his success do we attribute to him, and how much to Lebron?

So much of his time in CLE is coloured by the second Lebron era, which was pretty much guaranteed success because Lebron was there. He drafted Andrew Wiggins, but Wiggins isn't very good. He made the Love trade, but was that him, or was it on Lebron's orders? He oversaw the Kyrie Irving trade (I think), and that was a pretty horrible job.

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Wiggins isnt very good? :huh2:

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Originally Posted by Tinman

Wiggins isnt very good? :huh2:

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Nope. Currently in his 5th season, Wiggins is averaging 17ppg on 39/33/71 splits. He's never shot better than 36% from three. He doesn't rebound, or playmake for others. He's never had a positive net rating in his career, and this season it's -14. His career average PER is 14.1, which is under league average: this year it's 12.1. He's never had a positive BPM, or VORP. He's never had more than 4.2 win shares in a single season (for reference, KAT has 8 win shares so far this season, less than 60 games in). He's actually putting up negative offensive win shares this season. His TS% has only ever once been at league average.

Edit: and how could I forget, he doesn't play any defense at all. This season, opponents shoot better than their averages against him from literally everywhere inside the arc, and they only shoot 1.9% worse on the perimeter. Bad defense for a guy with his height, length, and athletic ability.

You take that guy at number 1 in a draft that includes Joel Embiid, Julius Randle, Marcus Smart, Dario Saric, Jusuf Nurkic, Gary Harris, Zach Lavine, Nikola Jokic, Spencer Dinwiddie? Sure there's an argument that that's not a great draft in general, but you could have easily, EASILY done better than Wiggins.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Nope. Currently in his 5th season, Wiggins is averaging 17ppg on 39/33/71 splits. He's never shot better than 36% from three. He doesn't rebound, or playmake for others. He's never had a positive net rating in his career, and this season it's -14. His career average PER is 14.1, which is under league average: this year it's 12.1. He's never had a positive BPM, or VORP. He's never had more than 4.2 win shares in a single season (for reference, KAT has 8 win shares so far this season, less than 60 games in). He's actually putting up negative offensive win shares this season. His TS% has only ever once been at league average.

You take that guy at number 1 in a draft that includes Joel Embiid, Julius Randle, Marcus Smart, Dario Saric, Jusuf Nurkic, Gary Harris, Zach Lavine, Nikola Jokic, Spencer Dinwiddie? Sure there's an argument that that's not a great draft in general, but you could have easily, EASILY done better than Wiggins.

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So, hes 23 years old, been in the league 5 yrs, with 4 different coaches. Wiggins is a good player.

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Originally Posted by Tinman

So, hes 23 years old, been in the league 5 yrs, with 4 different coaches. Wiggins is a good player.

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Okay.

Would you say his position has been worse than KATs?

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Fair enough, I couldn't quite remember whether Altman took over just in time for the Kyrie trade, or just after.

As for the second part, I don't really know if that helps your argument too much. When Lebron went back to Cleveland, he was 30. It's not a case of surrounding Lebron with ''the right team'', it's surrounding Lebron with almost ANY team in the East is a guaranteed finals team. We saw that last year, where a Lebron carried Jordan Clarkson, Cedi Osman, Jose Calderon, and Jeff Green into the finals. If the argument in favour of Griffin is that he's able to sign us Timofey Mozgov and give JR Smith a giant contract, then I'm not sure how much that's actually in favour of him at all.

And true: having a 34 year old Lebron who's injured for 20+ games in the West isn't a guarantee for success. Having a 30 year old uninjured Lebron in the East though, very different issue.

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BTW, he averaged 23 & 20 the past 2 years. Hes 2 years younger than AD & when he finally had a coach for more than 1 year in Tibs & played well. I would take him as a starting wing on my team all day.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Okay.

Would you say his position has been worse than KATs?

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Absolutely. Towns had Wiggins in place when he showed up. Wiggins went where he did in the draft because Minnesota STUNK. BTW, in 3 1/2 years, Wiggins has missed 1 game.

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Originally Posted by Tinman

BTW, he averaged 23 & 20 the past 2 years. Hes 2 years younger than AD & when he finally had a coach for more than 1 year in Tibs & played well. I would take him as a starting wing on my team all day.

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I think you're remembering a little off. He averaged 17ppg last season too. His 23 and 20 point seasons were 2015-16 and 2016-17.

He also shot 45/33/76 splits in that time, still didn't play defense, still had negative BPM, still had a negative VORP, still negative net rating, still-sub-par PER (aside from one year where it was 16.1, which is a little above average), etc.

I repeat: would you say his situation has been worse than KAT's?

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Originally Posted by Tinman

Absolutely. Towns had Wiggins in place when he showed up. Wiggins went where he did in the draft because Minnesota STUNK. BTW, in 3 1/2 years, Wiggins has missed 1 game.

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Towns had Wiggins in place when he showed up. And the Wolves STILL stunk, because Wiggins didn't make them better, because he isn't very good. I don't care if Wiggins plays 500 straight games, if he plays them badly, then I'd rather have someone else.

I ask about Towns because, in his 4th season (instead of 5th for Wiggins), he's somehow managed to have positive defensive stats, positive win shares every year, positive net ratings, positive BPMs and VORPs, above average PERs, and not shoot like absolute garbage.

Despite having the same team-mates, the same coaches, running the same schemes against the same opposition.

The site must be messing up. I keep clicking on the new GM discussion thread but it brings me to a weird argument about a guy not on our team.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Towns had Wiggins in place when he showed up. And the Wolves STILL stunk, because Wiggins didn't make them better, because he isn't very good. I don't care if Wiggins plays 500 straight games, if he plays them badly, then I'd rather have someone else.

I ask about Towns because, in his 4th season (instead of 5th for Wiggins), he's somehow managed to have positive defensive stats, positive win shares every year, positive net ratings, positive BPMs and VORPs, above average PERs, and not shoot like absolute garbage.

Despite having the same team-mates, the same coaches, running the same schemes against the same opposition.

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So, now you compare different positions, using Billy Bean analytics to explain everything ? I like Wiggins, you dont. EOS.

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Originally Posted by msusousaphone

The site must be messing up. I keep clicking on the new GM discussion thread but it brings me to a weird argument about a guy not on our team.

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Well, not every difference in opinion is an argument. Also, is this the 1st time that there has been a discussion a bit off topic in a thread or just the 1st time you want to complain about it?

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Originally Posted by Tinman

So, now you compare different positions, using Billy Bean analytics to explain everything ? I like Wiggins, you dont. EOS.

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I mean, what analytics do you think matter? Cause KAT does better in literally all of them. He shoots better from three too, and has done basically every year.

I get that you like Wiggins, that's cool. I don't, and I think I have perfectly good reason to dislike his game and his performance. But even if you like Wiggins, you can't pretend he's been a great player, can you? You've got to like him on potential and stuff, cause his career catalogue thus far is pretty disappointing by any measurements.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

I mean, what analytics do you think matter? Cause KAT does better in literally all of them. He shoots better from three too, and has done basically every year.

I get that you like Wiggins, that's cool. I don't, and I think I have perfectly good reason to dislike his game and his performance. But even if you like Wiggins, you can't pretend he's been a great player, can you? You've got to like him on potential and stuff, cause his career catalogue thus far is pretty disappointing by any measurements.

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I dont recall saying great, do you? I said I like him. I like his skill set. I think in an offensive scheme, such as Gentry's, he could be a major cog. You dont like him, I do. No minds are gonna be changed. I'm not as big on the microanalytics as you are. They didnt exist a decade ago, EYE test can go a long way.

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Originally Posted by Tinman

I dont recall saying great, do you? I said I like him. I like his skill set. I think in an offensive scheme, such as Gentry's, he could be a major cog. You dont like him, I do. No minds are gonna be changed. I'm not as big on the microanalytics as you are. They didnt exist a decade ago, EYE test can go a long way.

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:hihi: I hope I don't need to explain why ''X didn't exist in the past, therefore X can be dismissed'' is a little silly.

I agree that eye tests can go a long way though. Eye test on Wiggins shows that not only can he not play defense, he also doesn't look interested in trying.

I'm perfectly willing to concede that Wiggins might be solid some day. Maybe you're right and he's just waiting for the right scheme. He's not delivered the goods thus far though.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

:hihi: I hope I don't need to explain why ''X didn't exist in the past, therefore X can be dismissed'' is a little silly.

I agree that eye tests can go a long way though. Eye test on Wiggins shows that not only can he not play defense, he also doesn't look interested in trying.

I'm perfectly willing to concede that Wiggins might be solid some day. Maybe you're right and he's just waiting for the right scheme. He's not delivered the goods thus far though.

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Again, you are playing word salad. Why do you do that? I never said they should be dismissed. I said that I am not into the microanalytics as much as you. Im not sure how or why you conflate the two?
And quite frankly, why it didnt exist is a non-sequitur in this discussion.

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Originally Posted by Tinman

Again, you are playing word salad. Why do you do that? I never said they should be dismissed. I said that I am not into the microanalytics as much as you. Im not sure how or why you conflate the two?
And quite frankly, why it didnt exist is a non-sequitur in this discussion.

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Edit: deleted this whole comment, it's not worth the discussion.

In any case, I'm not gonna talk about this any longer because whether Wiggins is Lebron James or Olowokandi is kind of irrelevant to the overall point of the thread.

I saw this thread had blown up while I wasn't looking. Come back expecting some intense GM discussion... Find an argument about how good of a player Wiggins is. Lol

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My argument against Griffin is simply that I'm not sure how much credit you could give him for what was done because Lebron played such a large role. Maybe he's an amazing GM but they had a ton of #1 overall picks and other assets. He's just really hard to judge for me.

I personally would probably rather a new GM instead of a retread.

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Originally Posted by Mythrol

I saw this thread had blown up while I wasn't looking. Come back expecting some intense GM discussion... Find an argument about how good of a player Wiggins is. Lol

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My argument against Griffin is simply that I'm not sure how much credit you could give him for what was done because Lebron played such a large role. Maybe he's an amazing GM but they had a ton of #1 overall picks and other assets. He's just really hard to judge for me.

I personally would probably rather a new GM instead of a retread.

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It gets worse when you remember that Wiggins wasn't even really a Griffin draft, because he was traded immediately to the Wolves, so he's probably their pick. Which means even the tangential relationship Wiggins had to a potential GM is even smaller than it seemed at first. I think.

Otherwise yeah, that's kind of my point: is he a good GM, or is he just yet another individual whose career got a boost by being in close proximity to Lebron James?

Maybe we could hire Wiggins to be the GM? :D

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Originally Posted by P_B_&_G

Maybe we could hire Wiggins to be the GM? :D

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Might be better at it than he is at basketball. Who knows? :D

Yawn !

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Might be better at it than he is at basketball. Who knows? :D

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Exactly!