^ Yes, Harden is the superior player of all of them. They are all negative defenders, though.
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^ Yes, Harden is the superior player of all of them. They are all negative defenders, though.
Last edited by jdmcuc; 10-28-2012 at 05:18 AM.
OKC will flip Martin for something else. Just a hunch. He's got an expiring contract right? And he's a decent player, so I'm sure they could get good value for him... plus they were trying to trade Perk last year too.
Presti is setting OKC up to be ridiculously good for a long time. Man they screwed Houston with this trade... it'll be too funny if Harden doesn't extend there lol.
okc set their team back a couple of years with this trade...yes they gained cap flexibility, but now they probably wont make it to the finals for a couple of years.
I feel like Houston has been trying to trade Martin for a while now. I don't think his value around the league is all that high. To me, Martin feels like Kaman in this deal--an overpaid and past-his-prime player that OKC doesn't necessarily want, but needed to be included for the money to work out. And as we learned with Kaman, it's not as easy as it sounds to just flip that big of a contract at the deadline.Originally Posted by DroopyDawg
Obviously hindsight is 20/20, but here's a fun exercise:
Before the draft, OKC allegedly could have traded Harden for the #2 overall pick.
Which would you rather have:
The #2 overall pick from this year's draft
OR
KMart (likely gone after one year), Lamb, Toronto (lottery) 1st, Dallas (late) 1st, Boston (late) 2nd
Last edited by greewe; 10-28-2012 at 10:20 AM.
Big drop off for OKC in the short term. Harden was fantastic in the regular season and playoffs until he ran into Lebron James. Harden is a better defender than Martin and plays off the ball really well compared to what Martin can do. They will have a dropoff. They really screwed themselves with the Perkins contract and I would rather have Harden over Ibaka who's a good weakside shot blocker, but not a post presence offensively or defensively.
Emeka Okafor - Joe Smith - Carmelo Anthony - Manu Ginobili - Jason Williams
Al Jefferson - James Posey - Aaron McKie - Shaun Livingston
I can see why both teams made their respective moves.
HOU gets what they feel is a bonafide star who can be the face of the franchise, which they lack and have been trying to get for sometime. They will no doubt be aggressive in trying to surround him with players. They are in rebuild and just got a cornerstone.
OKC loads up on picks, sustaining their future, and picks up a player who is offensively good enough to fill harden shoes for this season. It can be argued that Martin may be better clutch 3pt shooter, which was a criticism of Harden in finals. Harden was gone regardless so they just got it done to avoid a distraction and headache. It would've hurt their championship chances had they made this move later in season by messing withchemistry.
If im okc i prob would have traded to cha pre draft. But im sure at that point they thought harden would give hometeam discount
It's a fair trade by both sides IMO until you consider that there's really no way the Thunder would have been able to afford a max deal for Harden with the new luxury tax rules and being in that market. He was a goner. Either the Rockets didn't consider that, or they were desperate. I would think they were desperate because their GM has been on the hot seat for quite awhile now.
I see Martin coming off the bench for them behind Thabo the way Harden did. The only thing I wonder is how Lamb fits into their rotation this year. They could trade Martin down the line as an expiring, but it's not like they can take on big contracts long term to match it.
K-Mart averaged 24 ppg just 2 seasons ago... i think he's gonna strive in that system. He's a great pure scorer, but a poor defender.
Kevin Martin's value has gone down because he's a scorer in his prime age on rebuilding teams... guy has never gotten a shot on a good team and it's not his fault. Similar to Monta Ellis. I think he'll strive personally
It's safe to say Morey is/was desperate. He's be tricking himself out at a chance at every playmaker available in recent memory. He was willing to take Carmelo on a "hope he stays" basis if memory serves me correct. Then he did the same with Howard. Before back loading two highly overrated guys in Asik and Lin. Now this deal where he's vastly over paying for potential. Which if you are fimilar with my stance that's a huge no-no.
I applaud the Thunder. They stuck to their principles. Draft well, take care of your own players, and do not overpay for FA's is the recipe for success in the NBA.
Good trade for Okc IMO. Martin can bring close to the same scoring as Harden but clutched behind the arc. If the don't like Martin after some time they can trade him.
To me OKC got better, deeper and more pieces for the future. God damn they stacked for years plus with a lottery pick!
I think the key everybody is over looking is Lamb. If he can play defense he'll fit in perfect with OKC. A guy who's a pure spot up shooter how can put the ball on the floor. He'll help open things up for Durant and Westbrook. Harden look to ball stop and facilitate more which is why he comes off the bench.
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Yeah. Anyone that says Harden wasn't much of a defender, wait till Kevin Martin takes the floor.
IMO I think people are underrating Harden a lot esp in comparison to Gordon. I think they're on par if not better to be quite honest and the fact that he can actually stay on the floor make him more valuable.
"I don't know if people know — I dislocated my pinkie finger. And [Tyreke] told me, 'You wanna go home or you wanna be here?' I want to be here. And he said, 'All right, then go tape it up and let's play. Let's go. We not stoppin' at no stores. Straight gas. That's what we do, just keep going.'"
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Harden and Gordon are different, yet both are productive. I think Gordon is better scoring off the dribble and on the ball defender while Harden is better playing off the ball and help wise defense.
Harden is a much better player than Martin. Losing him will make their team worse for the short term. Martin is a high usage player unlike Harden.
I think OKC are still title contenders, they've just acquired TWO guys who can step up if need be instead of having just one. When Harden disappeared, they had no answer offensively outside of the big two, now they get two other guys in addition to some draft picks that'll probably pan out. Mind you they still have our friend from Baylor as well...
Houston gains Harden and that'll sell tickets and win some games for them, I like Terrance Jones too, but when you look at our team, we will still beat them some games if we play well... If we should lose, oh well, at least they don't have the Raptors' pick to get better next year.
This!
Actually did you know Harden ranked 111th in usage rate in the NBA last season? See we have two school's of though on this board and it will be interesting to see who's correct.
1. Harden only got his numbers bc of Westbrook and Durant got him open shots etc. This is the approach nolaslim has used, and i tend to disagree.
2. Harden STILL had great numbers with Westbrook and Durant. This is a side i lean on. I think as his usage rate baloons, so will his numbers.
It's not just about usage though. Firstly, Harden isn't that great of a 1-1 player, which would make his "usage" not as effective as he is playing off the ball. He is much better when others are creating for him because, like Hornets78 pointed out above, he can't create for himself nearly as well as guys like Gordon, Westbrook, and Durant can. Secondly, the main thing with Harden is that he benefited mostly from the defense placing its emphasis on Westbrook and Durant. Harden was able to roam free and do his thing, and he was also playing a lot of minutes against 2nd teamers, which heavily inflated his numbers.
As the main guy, Harden will a) have to play the whole game against 1st team players instead of only half the game against 1st team guys like he did when he came off the bench for OKC, b) have the defense place all of their attention on him instead of guys like Westbrook and Durant, and c) have to take the last shot at the end of the game, which he has proven he can't do.
We will see. I think your predictions versus first teamers will be wrong and he will rise to the opportunity. We get to see if he's a big time player, which I think he will prove he is.
I'm with you. People tend to forget numbers aren't solely based on the player but often the players a guy is playing with. I think being the guy will like you said "ballon" Harden's numbers. I think he has every bit of as much potential as Gordon but isn't hurt nearly as often.
I think Harden's numbers will go up, but his efficiency will go down a bit unless he continues to improve his one-on-one skills which he has each situation. He's developed some nice moves and is already a strong shooter. Plus, he and Lin will complete each other since Lin depends on being a high usage guy while Harden is the opposite.
I think A. is a legit concern. However for B. and C. I disagree.
b) He still has guys like Lin, Parsons, Delfino, Patterson and I really like T.Jones to take pressure off of himself. Harden is one of the better playmaker at the 2 spot and won't force anything.
c) I think the whole last shot thing is overrated. I want a guy who will make the right play not just settle for a tough shot because he's the best player.
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