Top 10 Players (any position) for 2014-15

[tyler]

Even skip says he is not at the lvl that ppl are giving him

[UptownFuz504]

Whereas I do not agree with Throne's assertion that Drummond is better than AD, there are holes in AD's game that stops me from thrusting AD in the top 3 in the league. 75% of AD's offense comes from fast breaks, rebounds, and alley oops. At the end of the game, I personally wouldn't give AD the ball to win us the game because his offensive skill set isn't at that level yet. I'd prefer to have AD under the bucket to try to rebound and get a put back. That's my critique on AD but ultimately I feel he'll be one of the best. Throne's opinion is his opinion and nobody should be upset that his opinion isn't the same as the majority.

[N.O.Bronco]

Personally, I think Da Throne has solid basketball knowledge, but he took a stand on this a long time ago and now instead of looking at the issue w/o bias, he looks for everything wrong with AD and everything right with others in order to try to get his hypothesis to hold up. Smart people do this all the time in all fields.

This sums up Da Throne IMO.

To Da Throne:

During my google-fu from the other day(which you said you challenged me to post so I am) it was very evident that you put yourself out there in the world of the internet claiming Davis was not going to be as good as advertised and as a consequence of being so wrong you continue to look for the negative in everything about Davis and the positives in the guys you projected to do well.

Without further ado here was my supporting evidence for my earlier claims.

Davis will struggle at the next level. I have no idea why people think he will be a star. He's a less skilled/phyiscally weaker Anthony Randolph.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/sho...5#post21694025

Here he is claiming no less then ten people will be more effective stars day one then Davis coming into the NBA:

I think he is one of the riskier players in the draft because he ,unlike most of the guys that's lottery projections, can't be affective in the NBA as is. Robinson, Drummond, Barnes, Beal, T. Jones, Marshall, Lillard, Leonard, Zeller, and P. Jones all can be affective stars with their bodies as is the day of the draft. The only other lotto guys that need to transform their bodies at the next level are Sulliger(needs to lose weight) and Kidd-Gilchirst(needs to add weight). Losing weight pretty much always has a positive affect on a players game. However there's no way of telling how Davis' body will react to the 15-20lbs(miminal) he will need to add. Just looking at his frame it doesn't appear that he can add this weight while maintaining some of the traits that makes him a great shot blocker and these are just on his body and not his game

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/sho...1#post21698221

Here he is showing his preference for Robinson, Kidd-Gilchrest and Beal over Davis in the draft:

The who is better than him?

IMO Robinson, Kidd-Gilchirst, Drummond, and Beal for sure.

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...&postcount=883

And here is a year later still trying to save face with his Robinson will be better then Davis predictions which plays to the notion that he will stick to his original hypothesis until there is no fathomable way he can maintain it any longer:
http://www.operationsports.com/forum...&postcount=225

Here he is saying that if Anthony Davis sustains his level of play(to which he exceeded it) he would consider building around Davis over Love. But showing DaThrones nature he clearly has re-neged on giving Davis any credit for his marvelous performance last season by ranking him much further down then Love:

This you have to sustain some level of success for a length of time before I'm willing to clearly tie my wagon to a player. Davis has been great. This coming from someone who was a huge critic of his leaving UK. However we have no idea if he'll be able to handle the adjustments that teams will inevitably make to force him to do something he may struggle with.

For me right now their really no contest it's Love. If Davis does this all year then I think it becomes a much more reasonable discussion.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/sho...6#post27451876

This is the discussion that sums it up for me. He made an entire thread about his 2012 draft projections and listed Davis as the 7th best player. Then went on to make extremely ignorant assertions that you can see in his posts today that he still clings to in many ways:

Anthony Davis as the seventh best player in the draft is ridiculous. Davis will be a top 7 player in the NBA within the next 4-5 years.

Not even close. Davis is being drafted because he a smart hard working player that's one of the best athletes in the draft. However there are way too many holes in his skillsets. The one thing I think fans and even the league fails to realise are those holes in skills much like physical limitation can only be improved so much. If he gets stronger and keeps his athleticism he'll be a Serge Ibaka/Tyson Chandler type player. There's no chance he becomes a top 10 player in the league.

I'm sorry but this is just wrong. He has Hakeem type upside. I'm not saying he will be that good, I'm just saying that your assertion that he'll never be in the top 10 players is ridiculous. He's the best big man to come out since Howard.

I think that's absurd, but it's a matter of opinions. I've never seen a guy that inefficient at creating his own offense at ever fascist of the game magically turn into a dominant scoring big. He'll have his defensive impact, but him getting to Howard's level on offense is the best case scenario. Sure he'll get stronger but will he be as explosive after probably not and that is the heart of his game.

Once again there are far too many gaps in his game skill wise that IMO can't be bridge. People are resting on him growing. He'll get better but top 10 is insane based on what I see when I break Davis down.

Did you even watch him? He has a great mid-range jumper and his post moves will come along. He's only been playing center a few years. Kentucky already had established scorers but if he had wanted to Calipari could have run the offense through Davis. As it was he still scored 14 PPG on 62% shooting. Sure a lot of that was putbacks but he demonstrated some moves. It's not like he's Ben Wallace.

His mid range jumper is "ok", it is most certainly not "great". Outside of Terrence Jones and Doron Lamb Kentucky scorers aren't really that good.

Once again everybody is banking on him to improve. I don't see any major improvements ever happening. I'm aware he only been 6'10 for 2 years. But there's been other people who have pick up the sport late that were farther along as far as skills than Davis. Once again he's no Ben Wallace and he'll improve however to the likes of KG, Duncan, Kareem, or Hakeem is never going to happen. He'll most likely have a decent to good career, but he'll never be a franchise player IMO.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/sho...6#post27451876

And now after all of this he still says this yesterday:

Yes there were some things that I undervalued in Davis' game mostly his touch around the basket. But much of my concerns from his college days are still present now. Davis has some ability and is a hard working high IQ player. Again I won't be as high on him until I see those concern with his game address.

To me it is as clear as day that Da Throne is the type of individual that has a difficult time admitting he was completely wrong. His most damning predictions have been blown out of the water. Offensive ceiling is Howard, he can't add weight without losing his explosiveness, has poor ball handling, won't improve offensively from where he was in college, will struggle to be anything more then a role player. On and on and on.

Instead of admitting he projected the draft poorly and he was wrong you see him making excuses to support his original hypothesis years afterwards. Even to the present day with guys like Davis. For guys he projected poorly, namely Davis, he is constantly skeptical about Davis adding moves to his repertoire but with guys like Robinson and Drummond he is/was constantly arguing to give them more time because they will develop(Just read through the Operation Sports thread to see more examples). For Davis he was and is what you see from here on out, and for every skill he does improve he counters with a negative(well if Davis gets bigger he won't be explosive) for others he projected better he sees them getting better. Player development only works on guys he originally saw as stars that haven't quite made that leap yet but for guys like Davis that he projected poorly he refuses to accept that they will improve. You constantly see that with his belief Drummond is just scratching the surface but Davis will never improve or add enough skills to raise him above his arbitrary line that makes you a franchise player.

To the point now where his confirmation bias and stubbornness is so strong that it has led to an irrational skepticism of Davis and an embracement of a number of silly hypotheticals and arguments based on selective framing of facts and information that ultimately is rooted in his predictions from years back not aligning with reality. And on the other hand he gives players failures and flaws a pass that he had strong positive predictions for. Yes he likes to throw out at times that he will admit he is wrong and has done so in the past but it is clear that he will tie his anchor to a sinking ship until it is completely sunk. So until there is literally no argument out there that Da Throne can make to knock Davis expect him to continue taking the side that Davis isn't what almost everyone else who watches basketball sees.

I don't mean to pile on Da Throne because I have defended him in other threads where he takes opinions against the consensus but in this instance it is such a regular occurrence that I felt it needed addressing.

[Kumar]

75% of AD's offense comes from fast breaks, rebounds, and alley oops.

I no longer want any part of this debate but, 9% of AD's offense came in transition. 12.8% came from rebounds, and 4.6% of his shots were Alley oop layups and dunks.

He was isolated almost double the percentage of his plays than players like Blake Griffin, Tim Duncan, Kevin Love etc and he scored more PPP at a higher FG% and got fouled almost 20% of the time.

[UptownFuz504]

I no longer want any part of this debate but, 9% of AD's offense came in transition. 12.8% came from rebounds, and 4.6% of his shots were Alley oop layups and dunks.

He was isolated almost double the percentage of his plays than players like Blake Griffin, Tim Duncan, Kevin Love etc and he scored more PPP at a higher FG% and got fouled almost 20% of the time.

I can't argue with your stats but I can only go by what I see. Davis with the ball in his hands is not as effective as he is when he is off the ball. What makes him so good IMO is that he is so crafty at scoring without the ball. Once he gets a go to move, he's going to be great. Once again, not arguing with your stats but if you watched the USA game against Turkey, a lot of his output came off of rebounding, fast breaks, and assisted buckets. His offensive game is progressing but IMO its not top 3.....yet.

[Kumar]

I can't argue with your stats but I can only go by what I see. Davis with the ball in his hands is not as effective as he is when he is off the ball. What makes him so good IMO is that he is so crafty at scoring without the ball. Once he gets a go to move, he's going to be great. Once again, not arguing with your stats but if you watched the USA game against Turkey, a lot of his output came off of rebounding, fast breaks, and assisted buckets. His offensive game is progressing but IMO its not top 3.....yet.

Oh yeah he's not top three yet, I was just trying to bring context to this. Davis is good because he scores in an incredibly versatile amount of ways. He doesn't have one thing he over relies on.

[pelicanchamp]

Determinative proof? No. But stats, success, peer opinion, expert opinion, advanced stats and the eye test (general public) are all weighted evidence. Da ThRONe routinely says outlandish things that differ from everyone and loses in each of those categories (usually overwhelmingly) to everyone but him. Point is he offers nothing in the way of anything credible to even weigh in the favor of his opinion, other than just BS he spews. This is the internet, there is nothing wrong with engaging an idiot.

Totally agree with this post.

The guy is literally advocating for Drummond's offense over AD's. That should draw a ban in and of itself.

You can't rank multiple guys above AD when he is widely regarded by most everyone as a top player and provide NO support for your position, other than "because that's how I feel," and expect anyone to take you seriously. I asked for the stats in the last two years to justify these rankings....any stats...yet he has NONE and disregards anything he can't address. I understand not being a 'stats guy,' but you have NOTHING?? He focuses only mindless back and forth banter and doesn't truly offer the 'other side' argument because it's all unsupported BS just for the sake of being different. The guy is full of ****. He knows nothing about basketball. Period. End of story.

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[pelicanchamp]

Guys AD is gonna blow the F up this season. I have no doubt. All the signs are there. This guy is going to be better than 95 percent of the league and the PELS will be in the playoffs. Can anyone here just understand this very simple reality. It will be proven. Can't wait.


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[NOEngineer]

90% of the bigs in this league cannot do the things AD can "off the ball". He has exceptional ability to get open near the basket, catch almost anything thrown near him, and control his body to score and get fouled. His ability "on the ball" is slightly above average rather than just being exceptional. However, the thing that makes him elite is the combination of the two skill sets plus above-average free throw percentage, exceptional blocking ability and stealing ability, exceptional speed. If you focus on the few holes in his game you miss the point. Every player has holes in his game. LeBron is the closest thing to a flawless player ever seen, due to his combination of skill and size. Davis is not as skilled in any area, and is not as big as Lebron was before his low-substances diet. So, LeBron in his prime is better than Davis now, and probably better than Davis will be in his prime. KD lacks the size of AD, but has shooting range that I doubt AD will ever have. So, AD has a chance to be better than KD.

[Biasvasospasm]

What I really liked, and what I'd like to see more of, is AD facilitating out of the high post. Instead of taking the open jumper, which he can get whenever unless he's on fire, I really liked when AD got the ball at the top of the key and hit cutters or perimeter shooters. He's an above average passer, skill wise, for position. His stats haven't reflected that yet. As much as anything, that needs to be the next step for AD.

[DefensiveMind]

Appreciate the people trying to take the heat off the dude...but spare us. If you wanna change the topic or try the steer the discourse in another direction, by all means go ahead. But as has been plainly laid out, the dude made his bed. This is a discussion board, people are going to discuss things. Especially that which is full of manure. It's fun.

[wuggie]

It seems to me why some think AD isn't as good as other top tier superstars is because he's special. This guy is just him. We haven't seen anything like him exactly before to compare him to as a standard of elite ability as we have had in the past. I mean with Kobe, Lebron we seen Jordan and other legendary wings and with AD we have Duncan, KG, Robinson who are reminiscent of AD but at this stage of his career not exactly.

Maybe we will see in the future how good he can truly be and honestly he has the potential to be amazing both offensely and defensively. He's already surpassed my expectations almost and he hasn't even got a solid go to move yet. He's so good overall he dosent really need one lol

[pelicanchamp]

Stats can be deceiving, but rarely at the outlier level. There haven't been many guys with, for instance, a PER above 25 at age 25 or less who weren't ultimately super-elite players. Here's a list of guys from the 3 point era onwards, sorted by win shares:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...t=&order_by=ws
The vast majority of guys on this list (Jordan, James, Durant, Robinson, Barkley, O'Neal, Wade, Moses Malone, Magic Johnson, etc.) are hall of famers and in many cases all-time greats. There are a few who got derailed by injuries (Amare, Grant Hill, McGrady, Yao Ming) but were regarded as elite talents in their primes. There's one odd case who flamed out for a while who is probably still a HOFer (Vince Carter). There are a few guys who are still playing, two of whom were elite talents and likely HOFs (Bosh, Paul), and 3 younger guys who the jury is still out (Love, Cousins, Davis). There are two guys who I don't regard as elite talents on that list, Brook Lopez who was 25 in his season and only played 533 minutes, and Terrell Brandon, who was 25 in his season and was a nice player whose next best PER was 21.5. If you make the age year 21 season or less, it becomes a much shorter list, just O'Neal, James, Durant, Jordan, and Magic, and Davis. Only James and Davis did it in their age 20 season. I just find it unlikely that he's that much of statistical anomaly.

Thanks for this AWESOME post. You did some homework.


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[Jabberwalker]

What I really liked, and what I'd like to see more of, is AD facilitating out of the high post. Instead of taking the open jumper, which he can get whenever unless he's on fire, I really liked when AD got the ball at the top of the key and hit cutters or perimeter shooters. He's an above average passer, skill wise, for position. His stats haven't reflected that yet. As much as anything, that needs to be the next step for AD.

I kept thinking that last year. They kept getting him the ball at the elbow but it looked like he would either look for the run at the rim or the jumper. As his jumper improves I'd love to see him pass out of it more.

Oh yeah he's not top three yet, I was just trying to bring context to this. Davis is good because he scores in an incredibly versatile amount of ways. He doesn't have one thing he over relies on.

I was hoping someone else would bring this up but how many moves does Dirk have? How many moves did LMA use when he dropped those huge numbers in the playoffs? Limited moves != bad offense. One dribble dunk off of a P/R isn't a bad move when you have a near 8 ft wingspan, jump like a gazel and are faster than some guards.

[Tin_Food]

What blows my mind is that we can't just accept a difference of opinion.
It reminds me of when people from different religions argue over who's is more correct. When you negate the other's belief people get very defensive. Only usually it's over something (supposedly) more meaningful than a sport where men throw a ball through a rim.

Also, if I had no idea who any players were and just stumbled into this conversation and was trying to judge who was right and wrong I'd probably agree with daThrone because he is using actual arguments. Everyone else uses some kind of conjecture. Saying "everyone agrees with us" doesn't make you right. saying "If you don't agree by now you never will" doesn't support your claim or refute his. Every time this argument comes up people counter with stats first, which daThrone immediately reminds people that he doesn't put much value into. Nor should anyone. We've seen 'fake stats' before. Who cares if you get great stats if your team loses. Did the Spurs have a single player who averaged more than 16 ppg last season? Stats don't immediately translate to success. They then say "everyone knows how good he is/will be" as if that is a helpful argument. The vast majority who agrees with itself because it is the vast majority does nothing but serve it's own proliferation.

No one aside from Tin_Food even tried to have a conversation but moved toward badgering daThrone for having a difference of opinion. Why? What does it matter to you if he thinks AD isn't as good/going to be as good as you? He brings some valid points that we can look for in AD's development. That's great.

And to the point that he doesn't like the moves we made so he shouldn't be a fan, don't be ridiculous. So we should only be fans of teams who's GMs we like and when the GM changes we should then change the team we root for? I can hate every single move the Pels ever make and root for them. DaThrone isn't rooting for us to lose, he wants us to win but thinks we are going about it incorrectly. Maybe we should listen to him instead of getting upset that he might wake us from our dreamworld.

And what's so silly is that I disagree with DaThrone. Everything I've seen from AD tells me he is a very skilled offensive player. Admittedly I haven't watched a whole lot of Pistons so I can't speak to the comparison between the two but I think if AD gets better at defense this year he will be a great player for our team.

Oh, and just wanted to give a quick kudos to Tin_food for being so awesome to actually have a conversation with someone who disagrees with you. It's easy to get swept up in the overreaction undertow when everyone who agrees with you is so gung-ho on belittling someone.

Thanks, I agree I'm pretty awesome . Haha

For me I guess the reason why I'm a little uneasy with AD is because there hasn't really been a player like him before. I think if AD was able to play like Bynum in his prime or TD where they're more physically imposing, I wouldn't be as perturbed. There hasn't been a player this transformational since KG/Dirk, and even then AD is vastly different from them. The closest most have been able to compare him to is the admiral, but when Robinson came into the league he was tanked up and was able to bully ball other bigs. AD hasn't and I'm not sure if he'll ever be able or ever want to do that (doesn't seem like it's his game). He's sort of like KD in that sense, where people weren't sure if he'd ever be great because he never really bulked up.

Honestly I'm more excited about his defensive ability than his offensive ability, MM even said in the podcasts or in BSS articles that AD wasn't that good on defense this past season (Jumped too much on head fakes and didn't enforce the paint that well). Bill Russell ceiling Ben Wallace floor is what I see for him, THAT is really worth getting excited over.

Offensively, regarding his skills, like I said before, they're relatively good for a big, but not that great for a back court position. Regarding dribbling, I'd say Griffin is ahead of him in that category, also he's a bit more explosive and quick at changing direction. I'd say Odom in his prime and LA right now probably have a slight edge over AD in the handles department. His jumper is nice, and probably one of the best I've seen from a big, but I don't really want him taking that many mid range Js anyway (would rather 3 point range), his post up game (short to mid hooks) are nice and I hope will improve because I think is where he can make the biggest impact. His drives at the moment are a bit too hard line atm (if he could change direction a bit with a cross over or stutter step it would greatly improve it imo), and he doesn't yet seem to have the strength to finish through because he falls/dives alot, thankfully he gets a decent amount of superstar calls which makes up for it.

His touch (especially around the basket) however is amazing and that for me is probably his greatest offensive skill and what makes him so efficient. I remember watching Tyson Chandler doing similar things but he wasn't as good because he didn't have the same touch. It's because of this that I think that if he improved his dribble or post up moves (and hopefully his strength) he could really wreak havoc on the rest of the league, especially because that kind of game disrupts a defense more so than a mid range J could.

Honestly though if he develops that over 3-4 years I'd be happy, we have so much offensive talent atm that he doesn't really need to get it all together that quick. A Kentucky role with a bit more to do on offense is pretty good right now and he's already top 3 amongst pfs.

So i guess a couple things that make me uneasy about ADs progress towards superstardom:
1. He doesn't really dominate like bigs in the past have, in terms of physicality.
2. His guard skills are great for a big, but not that great for a guard
3. He still gets pushed around a bit, and relies on a mid range J more than I'd like (hope he doesn't fall in love with it)

The fact that I can comment on so many facets on offense just speaks to how transcendent he is. Even if he never develops those points I've made he'll still likely be a top 5 pf when it's all said and done. It's more that we've never had a guy to play like this that makes it all a little perplexing, but I'd alike it to the way dealer demps has gone about constructing this team with young veterans (potentially won't have to take a massive jump in pay come their next contracts). No one has ever done it this way, so you don't know if it'll work (though I'd say there's a real good chance it will work). It's slightly terrifying but also terribly exciting.

[da ThRONe]

This sums up Da Throne IMO.

To Da Throne:

During my google-fu from the other day(which you said you challenged me to post so I am) it was very evident that you put yourself out there in the world of the internet claiming Davis was not going to be as good as advertised and as a consequence of being so wrong you continue to look for the negative in everything about Davis and the positives in the guys you projected to do well.

Without further ado here was my supporting evidence for my earlier claims.


http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/sho...5#post21694025

Here he is claiming no less then ten people will be more effective stars day one then Davis coming into the NBA:


http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/sho...1#post21698221

Here he is showing his preference for Robinson, Kidd-Gilchrest and Beal over Davis in the draft:


http://www.operationsports.com/forum...&postcount=883

And here is a year later still trying to save face with his Robinson will be better then Davis predictions which plays to the notion that he will stick to his original hypothesis until there is no fathomable way he can maintain it any longer:
http://www.operationsports.com/forum...&postcount=225

Here he is saying that if Anthony Davis sustains his level of play(to which he exceeded it) he would consider building around Davis over Love. But showing DaThrones nature he clearly has re-neged on giving Davis any credit for his marvelous performance last season by ranking him much further down then Love:

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/sho...6#post27451876

This is the discussion that sums it up for me. He made an entire thread about his 2012 draft projections and listed Davis as the 7th best player. Then went on to make extremely ignorant assertions that you can see in his posts today that he still clings to in many ways:



http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/sho...6#post27451876

And now after all of this he still says this yesterday:




To me it is as clear as day that Da Throne is the type of individual that has a difficult time admitting he was completely wrong. His most damning predictions have been blown out of the water. Offensive ceiling is Howard, he can't add weight without losing his explosiveness, has poor ball handling, won't improve offensively from where he was in college, will struggle to be anything more then a role player. On and on and on.

Instead of admitting he projected the draft poorly and he was wrong you see him making excuses to support his original hypothesis years afterwards. Even to the present day with guys like Davis. For guys he projected poorly, namely Davis, he is constantly skeptical about Davis adding moves to his repertoire but with guys like Robinson and Drummond he is/was constantly arguing to give them more time because they will develop(Just read through the Operation Sports thread to see more examples). For Davis he was and is what you see from here on out, and for every skill he does improve he counters with a negative(well if Davis gets bigger he won't be explosive) for others he projected better he sees them getting better. Player development only works on guys he originally saw as stars that haven't quite made that leap yet but for guys like Davis that he projected poorly he refuses to accept that they will improve. You constantly see that with his belief Drummond is just scratching the surface but Davis will never improve or add enough skills to raise him above his arbitrary line that makes you a franchise player.

To the point now where his confirmation bias and stubbornness is so strong that it has led to an irrational skepticism of Davis and an embracement of a number of silly hypotheticals and arguments based on selective framing of facts and information that ultimately is rooted in his predictions from years back not aligning with reality. And on the other hand he gives players failures and flaws a pass that he had strong positive predictions for. Yes he likes to throw out at times that he will admit he is wrong and has done so in the past but it is clear that he will tie his anchor to a sinking ship until it is completely sunk. So until there is literally no argument out there that Da Throne can make to knock Davis expect him to continue taking the side that Davis isn't what almost everyone else who watches basketball sees.

I don't mean to pile on Da Throne because I have defended him in other threads where he takes opinions against the consensus but in this instance it is such a regular occurrence that I felt it needed addressing.

This is weird considering I have already said I was wrong about Davis is some respect. Yet I get no credit for adapting my opinion. Instead it's completely ignored or even worse in your post used against me. I have no problem being wrong if Davis does go on to win MVP's they'll be no debating. However my problem has been with his skill set and your research pretty much confirms that.

I think the point that I make excuses for player has been address. The level of expectations are what impacts my level of criticism.

Again I've given Davis the credit for his improvement and you confirm this yet you and many other continue to say that I haven't changed and will never change? Which is it?

[David Fisher]

Cousins just airballed an alley-opp dunk attempt...

[Mythrol]

This is weird considering I have already said I was wrong about Davis is some respect. Yet I get no credit for adapting my opinion. Instead it's completely ignored or even worse in your post used against me. I have no problem being wrong if Davis does go on to win MVP's they'll be no debating. However my problem has been with his skill set and your research pretty much confirms that.

I think the point that I make excuses for player has been address. The level of expectations are what impacts my level of criticism.

Again I've given Davis the credit for his improvement and you confirm this yet you and many other continue to say that I haven't changed and will never change? Which is it?

Shouldn't you evaluate all players evenly when you are making a top 25 list. How is it fair to rank a player like Drummond higher and be less critical of him? Yet again, this is just another excuse you hide behind to try and protect your being critical of Davis but is really just BS.

How much would you like to bet against AD will be better than Drummond this season? Choose the amount. If you are so confident in your evaluations then you should easily jump on this bet. I will put up $1,000 that AD will have a better season than Drummond. Money will go to a 3rd party (I'm sure there's a website for just this type of thing) and at the end of the season winner claims it. Basically, put your money where your mouth is or shut up.

On an unrelated point, if Davis numbers aren't usable because he was on a bad team, are his USAB numbers not usable as well? He has an all-star team around him and he is still the best player. Talent level, competition, etc are all irrelevant because they are all going against the same teams.

[tthier2]

I have no problem with someone having a difference of opinion and in all actuality I welcome it. I just reiterated thst there is no need to keep clamoring over this guy's opinion when it is obvious that it is always negative. Some people live their lives to go out of the way to be negative. Jabber walker you can't honestly say that any reasonable fan would hate every single move that their favorite team makes and further more would think so lowly of a potential superstar like A.D. This is just common sense. I personally could care less I'm just stating the obvious. This is a discussion board so discussions are welcome. This is the same on any board though. If you go to saintsreport and constantly bash Brees every chance you get don't you think other fans would be like really? Gtfoh. This is simply my point.

[pelicanchamp]

Da throne, Davis is way better than you thought. He's better than 95 percent of the league already. THERE IS PLENTY OF EVIDENCE FOR THIS.


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[da ThRONe]

Shouldn't you evaluate all players evenly when you are making a top 25 list. How is it fair to rank a player like Drummond higher and be less critical of him? Yet again, this is just another excuse you hide behind to try and protect your being critical of Davis but is really just BS.

How much would you like to bet against AD will be better than Drummond this season? Choose the amount. If you are so confident in your evaluations then you should easily jump on this bet. I will put up $1,000 that AD will have a better season than Drummond. Money will go to a 3rd party (I'm sure there's a website for just this type of thing) and at the end of the season winner claims it. Basically, put your money where your mouth is or shut up.

On an unrelated point, if Davis numbers aren't usable because he was on a bad team, are his USAB numbers not usable as well? He has an all-star team around him and he is still the best player. Talent level, competition, etc are all irrelevant because they are all going against the same teams.

A bet proves nothing did I already not go through with this with someone else? Because if I were to win it doesn't prove Drummond is greater than Davis like wise the opposite would be true.

[da ThRONe]

I have no problem with someone having a difference of opinion and in all actuality I welcome it. I just reiterated thst there is no need to keep clamoring over this guy's opinion when it is obvious that it is always negative. Some people live their lives to go out of the way to be negative. Jabber walker you can't honestly say that any reasonable fan would hate every single move that their favorite team makes and further more would think so lowly of a potential superstar like A.D. This is just common sense. I personally could care less I'm just stating the obvious. This is a discussion board so discussions are welcome. This is the same on any board though. If you go to saintsreport and constantly bash Brees every chance you get don't you think other fans would be like really? Gtfoh. This is simply my point.

If a fan had a lesser opinion of Brees than I did and gave detailed reason why even if I didn't agree I would respectfully agree to disagree. Like the mature adult that I am. Also I'm not bashing Davis. I've never said he sucks or is a bad player. You all receive my lesser opinion of his overall potential as a diss(almost as if it's a personal attack).

Why is it my fandom is being question based on how I feel about personnel moves? Please somebody explain how one thing equals the other. Were Saints fans that showed up to the game in paper bags over their heads less of a fan? What moves can I dislike and still be considered a legit fan or do I literally have to like them all?

[da ThRONe]

Da throne, Davis is way better than you thought. He's better than 95 percent of the league already. THERE IS PLENTY OF EVIDENCE FOR THIS.


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This is again your opinion which is cool and I won't question your BBall IQ or insult you for having this opinion. It's not an opinion that I share and I have given evidence as to why I see things the way I do.

[Mythrol]

A bet proves nothing did I already not go through with this with someone else? Because if I were to win it doesn't prove Drummond is greater than Davis like wise the opposite would be true.

A bet proves a lot. It proves you aren't a troll and actually believe the crap you spew.

You want people to take you seriously? You want people to believe that you honestly feel this way? Then accept the bet.

Otherwise, it proves deep down you honestly have no faith in what you are saying and you are just trolling. I'm giving you the opportunity to be taken seriously. And I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't a troll.

See, I actually believe what my opinion is and think I'm so right that I have no problem betting with someone who things I'm wrong. I have no fear of losing the money because I know I won't. Obviously. By you making excuses you don't actually believe the things your mouth spews.

And you still ignored my other points.

[jdmcuc]

LOL YOU WANT TO PLACE A BET OVER WHAT IS SAID ON A FORUM?! ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME?!