Grading Dell Demps

[N.O.Bronco]

Reading durun and writhes criticism it's really hard to objectively argue against a lot of what they are saying.

I think the David West criticism is pretty unfounded though considering it's been revealed him and cp3 were basically done with this team as far back as the chandler trade which it was reported left a sour and bitter taste in their mouths and that made up their minds to leave.

There does seem to be a failure of Monty and Dell being on the same page and their is certainly a sense that Dell doesn't quite have a coherent vision for this team at times.

The Jrue trade is still out until we see how Noel plays next season and paying for Evans while also giving up Lopez vs the alternatives like Al Jefferson is still a valid question to raise.

Gordon was clearly a mistake as was the bayless trade and drafting rivers.

Ryan Anderson was probably his best deal but I can't help but worry that in the long term him and Davis might not be the best fit together.

Frankly I'm not sure how far this roster when healthy can actually go. We've gave up a lot of long term flexibility and assets to create this roster. We can score a lot of points but when the shots aren't falling and since our coach isn't exactly an offensive minded guy that fits well with this type of roster, I have a feeling this team is probably gonna have consistency issues and doesn't seem built for a slog through a seven game series.

[UNO Gracias]

Does anyone believe that the Pelican could get back two lottery picks for Holiday?

I think they got comparable value. We traded a good pick in a bad draft for a good pg. If you had that same pick in this years draft and all you got was Jrue, that would be a different story. In the end we came out ahead.

[SeaLegs]

Dell mishandled the EG situation by allowing him to go to free agency. It is his job to know a players market value. Dell should have known that there would demand for EG services.

Dell's mistake was matching Phoenix's offer, not letting EG go to FA.

His biggest personnel misstep was not resigning David West.

David West and Chris Paul were leaving regardless of who our GM was after Tyson's departure. That much has been stated several times in several interviews.

Next would be the Bayless trade. That trade was not comprehensible especially since Williams coached the guy previous years.

Agreed. Very questionable trade.

Holiday is a good player, but Dell overpaid for him. Does anyone believe that the Pelican could get back two lottery picks for Holiday? Evans was a questionable decision. Dell overpaid for redundancy.

The jury is still out on Holiday's value. At worst, though, I think you could say we "slightly overpaid," and even that is questionable. As far as Tyreke, he isn't redundant if you move EG. Jrue and Tyreke's skillsets are different enough to not directly overlap.

The major reason that I gave Dell a “D” is that he and the head coach are not on the same page.

If Dell signs a player, but Monty fails to properly utilize that player, how is that solely Dell's fault? It's Dell's job to bring the best potential players in. It's up to Monty to use them properly.

[UNO Gracias]

I would actually side with that ESPN pole saying that Del is bottom 1/3.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10...top-executives

The way they lay it out, and the way people defend him is interest. Makes me think about when Pollsters ask people "What kind of approval rating would you give congress?" And they always give congress an approval rating in the 30% area, but when you ask those people how their congress person is doing they give them a 70-80% rating.

[Soundwave]

Holiday is a good player, but Dell overpaid for him. Does anyone believe that the Pelican could get back two lottery picks for Holiday?

This is not entirely true. Unprotected lottery picks are gold because of the hope of winning the lottery.

We didn't give up that. There was never any hope of hitting top 3. Essentially we gave up one top 5 protected pick and a skinny, offensively challenged C with a blown out knee. "Could we get back 1 top 5 protected pick and a skinny shot blocker with a blown out knee?' should be the question. Could we? I'm not sure, but that trade would make GM's think a lot longer than the trade you proposed.

[durun]

The Pels did give up two lottery picks for Jrue. This year pick is top 5 protected but it is still a lottery pick. Yes, the 2013 pick has a bum knee but Holiday fractured his leg and playoffs remain a dream. But my question still remains: Is Holiday worth two lottery picks? If he is, then why go after Evans and not pursue Al Jefferson. If EG’s replacement is your answer, then you have a general manager that does not the trade value of his player or a gm that really believes in Gordon’s abilities. So which is it? The fact is EG is still here and you still have another combo guard in Rivers.
If the general manager is bringing in talented players and the coach is not maximizing their skills, then the gm should fire the coach. That’s his job and responsibility. Dell did not hire Monty so why the allegiance?
I believe CP was gone no matter what too, but that was my point. My point was he waited too long to trade him. He should not have traded DC and others given CP3 status. IMO, he initiated trades to placate CP. Also, I believe if paid, DW would still be here. In fact, Ryno and Evans are here because we overpaid them. In general, your second contract is for money and your contract is for championships.
Btw, look at the offensive stats when Evans, Holiday, AD, EG and Ryno played together. Who do you think is the most efficient offensive player? Maybe the answer will surprise you.

[Pelicantoo]

I really want everyone on this thread to go back and look at our top to bottom roster the first 2 years of Dells tenure. Im on my phone or else id list them. We look at the dissatisfaction with the current roster but forget about the expedience at which he turned an abysmal mess of a jeff bower roster into a flexible, mobile series of assets. People have short memories, (this summer short) but you cant forget the road that got us here. What other team in recent history went from a middling playoff team who just lost their superstar to a young, look-out-for-the-future team on the rise this quickly? Id love to see more than anecdotal data on that. Maybe im wrong and teams do it all the time.

[BP225]

my question still remains: Is Holiday worth two lottery picks?

That question does not have a black and white answer because lottery picks do not have predetermined value. Demps traded uncertainty for certainty. Holiday is a B player. Using BSS' Value of a Draft pick article, the odds of 2 6-10 picks being better than 1 B player are 23%. The odds of 2 6-10 picks both being C or worse is 44%. So there is a 23% chance you made the wrong choice and a 77% you will be the same or better off by going with the proven B player.

If he is, then why go after Evans and not pursue Al Jefferson. If EG’s replacement is your answer, then you have a general manager that does not the trade value of his player or a gm that really believes in Gordon’s abilities.

I do think Demps thought trading Gordon would be easier than it has been, but everyone that doesn't get having both EG and Evans acts as if them being on the same roster NOW has some long term implication. As long as Gordon is moved or opts out before AD's extension kicks in then having both Evans and Gordon has done nothing to impede the long term team building. A bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush.

If the general manager is bringing in talented players and the coach is not maximizing their skills, then the gm should fire the coach. That’s his job and responsibility. Dell did not hire Monty so why the allegiance?

Technically Monty hired Dell, or at least played a large role in Demps becoming the GM. We also have no idea how Benson/Loomis view the pair, if they see them as a package deal then Demps wouldn't be able to fire Monty.

Also, I believe if paid, DW would still be here.

David West is on the record saying that essentially trading Tyson Chandler was a betrayal that started the beginning of the end for DWest and CP3 and between that, Paul leaving and the lack of ownership at the time, West's decision to leave wasn't that hard.

[SeaLegs]

I really want everyone on this thread to go back and look at our top to bottom roster the first 2 years of Dells tenure. Im on my phone or else id list them. We look at the dissatisfaction with the current roster but forget about the expedience at which he turned an abysmal mess of a jeff bower roster into a flexible, mobile series of assets. People have short memories, (this summer short) but you cant forget the road that got us here. What other team in recent history went from a middling playoff team who just lost their superstar to a young, look-out-for-the-future team on the rise this quickly? Id love to see more than anecdotal data on that. Maybe im wrong and teams do it all the time.

I agree with you, but also fully expect counter-arguments about how Dell "lucked into" the AD pick. Which is true, however his work elsewhere on the roster is where he really shines, and I think the improvement is undeniable.

[SeaLegs]

That question does not have a black and white answer because lottery picks do not have predetermined value. Demps traded uncertainty for certainty. Holiday is a B player. Using BSS' Value of a Draft pick article, the odds of 2 6-10 picks being better than 1 B player are 23%. The odds of 2 6-10 picks both being C or worse is 44%. So there is a 23% chance you made the wrong choice and a 77% you will be the same or better off by going with the proven B player.



I do think Demps thought trading Gordon would be easier than it has been, but everyone that doesn't get having both EG and Evans acts as if them being on the same roster NOW has some long term implication. As long as Gordon is moved or opts out before AD's extension kicks in then having both Evans and Gordon has done nothing to impede the long term team building. A bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush.



Technically Monty hired Dell, or at least played a large role in Demps becoming the GM. We also have no idea how Benson/Loomis view the pair, if they see them as a package deal then Demps wouldn't be able to fire Monty.



David West is on the record saying that essentially trading Tyson Chandler was a betrayal that started the beginning of the end for DWest and CP3 and between that, Paul leaving and the lack of ownership at the time, West's decision to leave wasn't that hard.

Very good points.

[speedyG]

Dell deserves a “D”. So far, I think that Jason Smith, Morrow and RA are his three positives. Dell mishandled the EG situation by allowing him to go to free agency. It is his job to know a players market value. Dell should have known that there would demand for EG services. Dell was way down the line in the Spurs’ management structure on how he handled EG and the CP3 situation shows his lack of personnel experience. Demps did not comprehend CAA’s influence over Chris Paul for a big market team. It is also ironic that we traded DC and he is now playing alongside CP3 with the Clippers.
His biggest personnel misstep was not resigning David West. Imagine the Pels with West. DW is exactly what this team needs: toughness (mental and physical) and leadership. Next would be the Bayless trade. That trade was not comprehensible especially since Williams coached the guy previous years.
Holiday is a good player, but Dell overpaid for him. Does anyone believe that the Pelican could get back two lottery picks for Holiday? Evans was a questionable decision. Dell overpaid for redundancy. Al Jefferson was available and Dell focused on Evans even after the Holiday trade and drafting Rivers the previous year. So would you rather have Evans or Al Jefferson?
Hopefully, this offseason Dell turns it around. Let’s see if he trades Pierre for some value, gets a serviceable center like Oak and keep most of the team’s free agents except for Steamer and maybe Roberts. Any major moves should be done by trade deadline next year.
The major reason that I gave Dell a “D” is that he and the head coach are not on the same page.

So you mean you dont like DD? What about MW, or JS, AM, AR and AA? What about the move to get GV

[pawel]

I have a question and some thoughts on Dell and BRob
Michael McNamara - when there is a Player Option on player which should be used f.e. till 30.10, can a player A have this option lifted by club on 1.07, and than used the player as a trade asset on f.e. 4.07. or a player is for some time untreadable. IMO he can be traded - cause he is not a FA??

i think that dell does not have many players with contracts to send somewhere, and BRob might be used in such a scenario

f.e. Gordon for Amare does not work, but Gordon plus BRob (3 mil) and Withey might. Or Gordon plus Roberts for Tyson and Felton. Roberts might be seen by others as an asset. and while we do not have many contracts to send - those 3 mills might be some part of the Dell's plan.
Thoughts?

[DRDJ1]

Yes. I believe Holiday was worth 2 picks. We will find out in 2014-2015.

[Mythrol]

I have a question and some thoughts on Dell and BRob
Michael McNamara - when there is a Player Option on player which should be used f.e. till 30.10, can a player A have this option lifted by club on 1.07, and than used the player as a trade asset on f.e. 4.07. or a player is for some time untreadable. IMO he can be traded - cause he is not a FA??

i think that dell does not have many players with contracts to send somewhere, and BRob might be used in such a scenario

f.e. Gordon for Amare does not work, but Gordon plus BRob (3 mil) and Withey might. Or Gordon plus Roberts for Tyson and Felton. Roberts might be seen by others as an asset. and while we do not have many contracts to send - those 3 mills might be some part of the Dell's plan.
Thoughts?

That's an interesting idea. I don't know exactly how it all works but if Dell can use 3mil w/ BRob to help trade Gordon I'm all for it.

[AUSSIE_PELICAN]

I have a question and some thoughts on Dell and BRob
Michael McNamara - when there is a Player Option on player which should be used f.e. till 30.10, can a player A have this option lifted by club on 1.07, and than used the player as a trade asset on f.e. 4.07. or a player is for some time untreadable. IMO he can be traded - cause he is not a FA??

i think that dell does not have many players with contracts to send somewhere, and BRob might be used in such a scenario

f.e. Gordon for Amare does not work, but Gordon plus BRob (3 mil) and Withey might. Or Gordon plus Roberts for Tyson and Felton. Roberts might be seen by others as an asset. and while we do not have many contracts to send - those 3 mills might be some part of the Dell's plan.
Thoughts?

Great idea!

However if NY are looking to rid themselves of players then Gordon & Roberts for Amare seem's the most logical for NY (Withey doesn't need to be included as this already works salary wise) and the Knicks could avoid the lux tax depending on what they do with their other contracts.

This won't happen if they do a Gordon for just Chandler.
It works salary wise but throw in Felton or do a Bargnani & Felton deal.......I think the Knicks take it.

God I hope so!!!!

[AUSSIE_PELICAN]

Heck.....I'd do a Gordon for Boozer trade.

The bulls would have a nice starting five next season:

Rose
Gordon
Butler
Gibson
Noah

[MichaelMcNamara]

I would jump all over Gordon for Boozer too. Have talked about that one in the past. Bulls gotta make room up front to bring Mirotic over anyway


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[kclaboy504]

The Pels did give up two lottery picks for Jrue. This year pick is top 5 protected but it is still a lottery pick. Yes, the 2013 pick has a bum knee but Holiday fractured his leg and playoffs remain a dream. But my question still remains: Is Holiday worth two lottery picks? If he is, then why go after Evans and not pursue Al Jefferson. If EG’s replacement is your answer, then you have a general manager that does not the trade value of his player or a gm that really believes in Gordon’s abilities. So which is it? The fact is EG is still here and you still have another combo guard in Rivers.
If the general manager is bringing in talented players and the coach is not maximizing their skills, then the gm should fire the coach. That’s his job and responsibility. Dell did not hire Monty so why the allegiance?
I believe CP was gone no matter what too, but that was my point. My point was he waited too long to trade him. He should not have traded DC and others given CP3 status. IMO, he initiated trades to placate CP. Also, I believe if paid, DW would still be here. In fact, Ryno and Evans are here because we overpaid them. In general, your second contract is for money and your contract is for championships.
Btw, look at the offensive stats when Evans, Holiday, AD, EG and Ryno played together. Who do you think is the most efficient offensive player? Maybe the answer will surprise you.

What are you talking about man? We did not over pay for ryno. We traded ayon to Orlando for him and then signed him to 1 of the better contracts in the league. Also, you can't generalize the question on if we could get 2 lotto picks for holiday. Cause we knew what was available at the time of the draft (Noel) and we were expecting to be out of lotto next year after moves were made and we would of been if not for the curse this franchise is struck with in the injury department. If we give them the 9-10 pick in this draft(which is what it is looking like it'll be unless we luck out and get top 3) and Noel. Yes we clearly got the better end of that trade IMO. I'd do it again. You can't just say 2 lotto picks not knowing what year and what the draft looks like and what the picks would be cause we knew that at the time. We didn't blindly give up 2 lotto picks in the future for him. So that analogy is flawed.

[kclaboy504]

I really want everyone on this thread to go back and look at our top to bottom roster the first 2 years of Dells tenure. Im on my phone or else id list them. We look at the dissatisfaction with the current roster but forget about the expedience at which he turned an abysmal mess of a jeff bower roster into a flexible, mobile series of assets. People have short memories, (this summer short) but you cant forget the road that got us here. What other team in recent history went from a middling playoff team who just lost their superstar to a young, look-out-for-the-future team on the rise this quickly? Id love to see more than anecdotal data on that. Maybe im wrong and teams do it all the time.

Funny u mention bower. Just got done reading an espn article where they ranked the best and worse drafting gms since 1989. Guess who ranked 5th best? None other than the great Jeff bower!!!

[Spaniard]

I can't believe now years later, and knowing what we know, people still question the possible CP3 deal with the Lakers. Probably helps that no one mentions the Rockets first we were supposed to get, or the two second round picks we had to throw in for the thrill of having Eric Gordon. The fact that we saw Odom traded for a first. We saw most of those pieces traded for James Harden. We saw Dragic become one of the best PG's in the league. And we're sitting here with Aminu for four more games, Austin Rivers and a dream of paying someone to take Eric Gordon. We even saw Scola get traded for Gerald Green, though it was after an amnesty and a lot of moving.

That deal is THE perfect example of why Dell should be given an A. His vision is way ahead of most people. Every team in the league would trade the 11th pick in this draft and a 6'11, 200 lb center coming off knee surgery for Jrue Holiday. Yet we still want to sit here and say two lottery picks two lottery picks, how awful.

And let's not forget we finished fourth after CP3 left. Whatever god you believe in is the reason we have Anthony Davis. Not any trade. If we want to be fair, the drafting of Austin Rivers had just as much to do with our poor record. Should we give Dell credit for that?

[kclaboy504]

I can't believe now years later, and knowing what we know, people still question the possible CP3 deal with the Lakers. Probably helps that no one mentions the Rockets first we were supposed to get, or the two second round picks we had to throw in for the thrill of having Eric Gordon. The fact that we saw Odom traded for a first. We saw most of those pieces traded for James Harden. We saw Dragic become one of the best PG's in the league. And we're sitting here with Aminu for four more games, Austin Rivers and a dream of paying someone to take Eric Gordon. We even saw Scola get traded for Gerald Green, though it was after an amnesty and a lot of moving.

That deal is THE perfect example of why Dell should be given an A. His vision is way ahead of most people. Every team in the league would trade the 11th pick in this draft and a 6'11, 200 lb center coming off knee surgery for Jrue Holiday. Yet we still want to sit here and say two lottery picks two lottery picks, how awful.

And let's not forget we finished fourth after CP3 left. Whatever god you believe in is the reason we have Anthony Davis. Not any trade. If we want to be fair, the drafting of Austin Rivers had just as much to do with our poor record. Should we give Dell credit for that?

We don't have Anthony Davis with that deal. That's a fact. I have to believe it was all apart of the higher ups(stern) plan. Give me Davis over all of those pieces or picks.

[speedyG]

Great idea!

However if NY are looking to rid themselves of players then Gordon & Roberts for Amare seem's the most logical for NY (Withey doesn't need to be included as this already works salary wise) and the Knicks could avoid the lux tax depending on what they do with their other contracts.

This won't happen if they do a Gordon for just Chandler.
It works salary wise but throw in Felton or do a Bargnani & Felton deal.......I think the Knicks take it.

God I hope so!!!!

I dont think Phil Jackson is dumb enough to take Gordon. He will probably try to change their way of taking on terrible deals

[PatrickJr17]

Just a fun fact incase anyone was wondering.

The negative where Dell traded away a first for Jarryd Bayless (and in turn essentially Jarett Jack), said first turned into Tobias Harris.

What would you rather?

[kclaboy504]

Just a fun fact incase anyone was wondering.

The negative where Dell traded away a first for Jarryd Bayless (and in turn essentially Jarett Jack), said first turned into Tobias Harris.

What would you rather?

Tobias Harris all day and it's not close. Check the players that were still available at that point too.

[MichaelMcNamara]

I will give my final grade on Demps after next summer. Every GM makes a big mistake or two, especially the first time around. I mean, the immortal Sam Presti drafted Cole Aldrich in the lotto (worse than Rivers), gave Perkins a big contract extension (almost as bad as Gordon), and traded James Harden because of mistake #2 (Perkins). The Gordon mistake was just that, a mistake, but if he can crawl out from under it and still find a way to put the right pieces around the Core 4, he can still earn an A. If he just compounds that mistake or lets it keep him from adding someone before AD's max contract kicks in, I can't go higher than a B-/C+