Pels threaten with lost of draft pick and fines

[Mythrol]

MY bad! I confused what we reportedly asked for, with what their last reported offer was. See how easy it is for me to admit when I'm wrong.

If they met our demand of 4 picks, would you still think their offer was trash? My understanding has been that the focus of the trash was always the players. Would the addition of a 2023 and 2025 pick have really swayed you?

I think if the Lakers offered everything the Pelicans asked for (which was 4 1st, 4 2nds, and rights to pick swap for 3 years) along with all the players mentioned, you'd have to strongly consider it.

My understanding is the Lakers did not want to include a 1st past the years on Lebrons's contract but those would have been really valuable.

[Pelicanidae]

our trash heap beat Houston should we try to get a top 5 top 10 player with them?

Sent from my SM-S903VL using Tapatalk

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Who was it a few games ago getting shirty with me for doing a one game judgment? Then all of a sudden, the Lakers beat the Celtics, and we're supposed to assume great things about the young core.

Even though the young core was not responsible for them beating the Celtics.

In that game, Ingram had 11 points on 29% from the floor and 25% from three.
Zubac didn't play. Ball didn't play. Hart played 7 minutes and missed his only shot.

The only one of the Lakers young core who actually contributed in a major sense to that victory was Kuzma, who shot well above his season average from three to drop in 25 points. Other than that, they won because Lebron had 28/12/12, Rondo shot 3/4 from deep for a nigh triple double, and Lance Stephenson put up 14 points in 17 minutes.

If you wanna argue that we should trade AD for Rondo and Stephenson cause they led the Laker's victory over the Celtics, feel free, but don't be surprised when I laugh you off.

[da ThRONe]

Oh hey, you're back again?

I'm calling them a troll because their argument about Davis having the leverage now is an argument which has been addressed about 400 times since Davis requested the trade, in about a dozen different ways by a dozen different people. The argument has been completely covered, and rebuttled time and time again. If you want to argue from that perspective again, you have to actually defend it rather than just assuming it as a axiomatic statement, because it's not: it's a point of view which has been exploded repeatedly.

If you frame your point around a completely defunct position, then either you don't realise the position is defunct (in which case why would we take you seriously, because you're ignoring the responses you get), or you assume the defunct position is actually true. If you assume it's true, you have to defend it, otherwise you just sound like you're being contrarian for the sake of it. If you're ignoring the entire discussion, or assuming a contrarian position for the sake of it, I'm going to assume you're a troll.

Ok WTF are you talking about? You tell me what GM is going to mortgage their respective teams future for a player that's vocal about not signing an extension. Let alone expecting that GM to be Danny Ainge. What has been debunked exactly?

[NMThreeMVP]

I never saw all that anywhere as the ask...

So you would NOT have considered 4 1st, Kuz, Ingram, Ball and the ability to tank (vs playing AD and our way into a worse pick) a fair offer? Essentially 7 1st and difference between 6th best odds and 12th best odds in lottery?

[Pelicanidae]

Ok WTF are you talking about? You tell me what GM is going to mortgage their respective teams future for a player that's vocal about not signing an extension. Let alone expecting that GM to be Danny Ainge. What has been debunked exactly?

The claim that AD has all the leverage. It has been explained multiple times by me, and others, why AD doesn't have any real leverage beyond that which he's already exerted in the media via leaks and his father's comments. If you want people to take the view that he does have leverage seriously, you have to establish that, because all of the previously assumed reasons that he would have that leverage have been considered, discussed, and dismissed by most people on the board.

[Mythrol]

I never saw all that anywhere as the ask...

So you would NOT have considered 4 1st, Kuz, Ingram, Ball and the ability to tank (vs playing AD and our way into a worse pick) a fair offer? Essentially 7 1st and difference between 6th best odds and 12th best odds in lottery?

Where did I say I wouldn't consider that? I think any time a team is putting 4 1st round picks on the table you have to consider it. Especially if we could have flipped Ball to another team for more assets.

[Mythrol]

Ok WTF are you talking about? You tell me what GM is going to mortgage their respective teams future for a player that's vocal about not signing an extension. Let alone expecting that GM to be Danny Ainge. What has been debunked exactly?

It depends what you consider mortgaging the future.

Is the Celtics giving up Tatum, Smart, Hartford, etc plus 3 1st really mortgaging their future? If there was ever a player to risk it on, it'd be AD.

People act like Ainge is some savant GM. They forget that he offered 4 1st round picks to move up in the draft and get Justice Winslow. He was saved from himself by another team turning that down. Ainge is not perfect and it's been made clear for years his target has been Anthony Davis. If you expect him to try and get cute with the Pelicans and risk losing AD, I think you are mistaken.

[NMThreeMVP]

Where did I say I wouldn't consider that? I think any time a team is putting 4 1st round picks on the table you have to consider it. Especially if we could have flipped Ball to another team for more assets.

Why is everyone so snappy around here? I asked you if you would consider this offer a few questions ago, and you didn’t answer, but told me you would consider something else which was a lot more. If I should have been able to infer something different from your response, my bad. I inferred that you wouldn’t consider it, but asked a follow up to get clarity. Sheesh.

[Mythrol]

Why is everyone so snappy around here? I asked you if you would consider this offer a few questions ago, and you didn’t answer, but told me you would consider something else which was a lot more. If I should have been able to infer something different from your response, my bad. I inferred that you wouldn’t consider it, but asked a follow up to get clarity. Sheesh.

Why are you taking my responses as snappy? Stop reading emotion into my posts. I have no feeling towards what I'm typing, I'm trying to engage in conversation and I've answered your questions directly every time as soon as I've seen them.

[da ThRONe]

The claim that AD has all the leverage. It has been explained multiple times by me, and others, why AD doesn't have any real leverage beyond that which he's already exerted in the media via leaks and his father's comments. If you want people to take the view that he does have leverage seriously, you have to establish that, because all of the previously assumed reasons that he would have that leverage have been considered, discussed, and dismissed by most people on the board.

Has AD come out and said he will only sign with the Lakers? Not yet. What happen if he's does? Ok so don't tell me he doesn't have the major influence in this situation. No way Ainge trades us anything that close to what the Lakers just did with the hope of changing his mind.

[Pelicanidae]

Has AD come out and said he will only sign with the Lakers? Not yet. What happen if he's does? Ok so don't tell me he doesn't have the major influence in this situation. No way Ainge trades us anything that close to what the Lakers just did with the hope of changing his mind.

Okay.

[PELICANSFAN]

So that's 7 picks we could have had, plus the loss of draft position equivalent to another pick. Say what you want, but it's hardly wussified to say maybe we should have taken it or a Knicks offer, if for no other reason than to have a bettter shot with our pick of Zion, Ja, or RJ.

There is no indication that the Knicks even made an offer after discussing Porzingis.

[da ThRONe]

It depends what you consider mortgaging the future.

Is the Celtics giving up Tatum, Smart, Hartford, etc plus 3 1st really mortgaging their future? If there was ever a player to risk it on, it'd be AD.

People act like Ainge is some savant GM. They forget that he offered 4 1st round picks to move up in the draft and get Justice Winslow. He was saved from himself by another team turning that down. Ainge is not perfect and it's been made clear for years his target has been Anthony Davis. If you expect him to try and get cute with the Pelicans and risk losing AD, I think you are mistaken.

If AD leaves and Irving doesn't re-sign they are left with Hayward.

There's a difference between moving up to draft a prospect you owe the rights to for 5-8 years versus trading for a player under contract for one year and that's telling you he's not coming back under any circumstances.

[P_B_&_G]

You get it my man. Plus that trash heap as he called it beat the Celtics yesterday. Team will be terrible when Kyrie leaves in FA

Except they went to the conference finals without him last year.

[Pelicanidae]

Except they went to the conference finals without him last year.

And how nobody but Kuzma actually had a good game against the Celtics, and that it was Lebron, Stephenson, and Rondo who actually won that game.

But don't let's allow reality to get in the way here.

[Tinman]

The claim that AD has all the leverage. It has been explained multiple times by me, and others, why AD doesn't have any real leverage beyond that which he's already exerted in the media via leaks and his father's comments. If you want people to take the view that he does have leverage seriously, you have to establish that, because all of the previously assumed reasons that he would have that leverage have been considered, discussed, and dismissed by most people on the board.

Zero Leverage!!!! If I thought it wouldn't hurt the Pels Long term, I'd tell him to plan on suiting up in the SMC next year too.

[Mythrol]

If AD leaves and Irving doesn't re-sign they are left with Hayward.

There's a difference between moving up to draft a prospect you owe the rights to for 5-8 years versus trading for a player under contract for one year and that's telling you he's not coming back under any circumstances.

I didn't say there wasn't a difference between Winslow and AD. The point was Ainge isn't perfect or unbeatable and he has wanted AD for a long time.

*If* AD leaves. *If* Kyrie doesn't resign. It still depends on what the package for AD is.

If it's Tatum, Smart, Hartford, Rozier and 3 1st for AD then that still gives them another first, Brown, Hayward, plus their draft pick at the end of AD's season there.

But you're trying to pin Kyrie leaving as part of the package for AD. That's not how it works. *IF* Kyrie stays, even *IF* AD leaves that team still is a top 5 seed in the East.

[Tinman]

If AD leaves and Irving doesn't re-sign they are left with Hayward.

There's a difference between moving up to draft a prospect you owe the rights to for 5-8 years versus trading for a player under contract for one year and that's telling you he's not coming back under any circumstances.

If if if if if if if if if if . If we would've taken Lakers Ea 2018 team, we would stink , just like they did. See, my IF is better than yours.

[NMThreeMVP]

Why are you taking my responses as snappy? Stop reading emotion into my posts. I have no feeling towards what I'm typing, I'm trying to engage in conversation and I've answered your questions directly every time as soon as I've seen them.

That's fair. I have the same complaint half the time so I get it.

So this is my takeaway, please correct me if I'm wrong:

Zubac, Kuz, Ingram, Ball, 2019 1st, 2021 1st ...that's a terrible offer.

Kuz, Ingram, Ball, 2019 1st, 2021 1st, 2023 1st, and 2025 1st ...that's an offer worth considering.

Getting a 2023 and 2025 1st are therefor significantly better than Zubac. If the Pels call Lakers back on Thursday, they could probably have gotten that 2023 pick and Zubac.

I'm not trying to be annoying, I'm just trying to tease out value.

So you would have considered that a fair trade, and we would have been able to tank which is worth an extra pick just in terms of projected value.

How do you value the Celtics offer that was reported yesterday, considering the costs of the Pelicans losing draft position by keeping AD? Do you still think it is significantly better than the Lakers offer you would have considered?

[da ThRONe]

I didn't say there wasn't a difference between Winslow and AD. The point was Ainge isn't perfect or unbeatable and he has wanted AD for a long time.

*If* AD leaves. *If* Kyrie doesn't resign. It still depends on what the package for AD is.

If it's Tatum, Smart, Hartford, Rozier and 3 1st for AD then that still gives them another first, Brown, Hayward, plus their draft pick at the end of AD's season there.

But you're trying to pin Kyrie leaving as part of the package for AD. That's not how it works. *IF* Kyrie stays, even *IF* AD leaves that team still is a top 5 seed in the East.

No GM is perfect, but that doesn't change the fact that trading for Davis if he's adamant about leaving is a low percentage trade.

1st Rozier is a FA and Harford has a player option so he may not be a option. 2nd you take away Tatum, Smart, and Harford (provided you don't get some better player) that's not a playoff team.

[P_B_&_G]

There is a lot of LBJ hate in this thread. I wonder how many people would have advocated for the Lakers trade if he played for the Celtics.

I would have. Because its potentially a better deal. The Lakers deal or at least something very similar will be there this summer.

[da ThRONe]

If if if if if if if if if if . If we would've taken Lakers Ea 2018 team, we would stink , just like they did. See, my IF is better than yours.

Ainge has to factor in all these possibilities it's his job. Ainge may be one of the most secure GM's but if he were to give us the assets the report is saying and loses Davis after one season (especially if Davis has made this none before hand) it'll reverse all the benefits of him fleecing the Nets.

[P_B_&_G]

That's fair. I have the same complaint half the time so I get it.

So this is my takeaway, please correct me if I'm wrong:

Zubac, Kuz, Ingram, Ball, 2019 1st, 2021 1st ...that's a terrible offer.

Kuz, Ingram, Ball, 2019 1st, 2021 1st, 2023 1st, and 2025 1st ...that's an offer worth considering.

Getting a 2023 and 2025 1st are therefor significantly better than Zubac. If the Pels call Lakers back on Thursday, they could probably have gotten that 2023 pick and Zubac.

I'm not trying to be annoying, I'm just trying to tease out value.

So you would have considered that a fair trade, and we would have been able to tank which is worth an extra pick just in terms of projected value.

How do you value the Celtics offer that was reported yesterday, considering the costs of the Pelicans losing draft position by keeping AD? Do you still think it is significantly better than the Lakers offer you would have considered?

I'm not sure our end result this year would be much different with AD versus either of those packages. Those guys would have likely helped us win some games. So unless you were planning on sitting all of them we would probably have ended up with a middling pick anyway. We might have even made the eighth seed.

Those 2023 and 2025 picks could be worth a ton considering it is would be after LBJ retires or falls off a cliff. LBJ would be 41 in the 2025 season.

[mjf504]

Actually. He’s gonna lose more than anyone. If he has a career ending injury who will that hurt more?

[P_B_&_G]

Actually. He’s gonna lose more than anyone. If he has a career ending injury who will that hurt more?

This too, even if he goes somewhere else and signs with them after next season he is risking a major injury just like Cousins. He is basically turning down all of that guaranteed money this summer when he could lock it in regardless of what happens.

He seems like a great kid and all and I get where he's coming from with wanting to win but someone needs to tell this dude, who keeps mentioning how short a career is, that he is one injury away from being Gordon Haywood or worse. Except Haywood was lucky enough to sign his contract before he was injured.