How about Melo?

[HoustonPelicans]

https://youtu.be/-OuAL4gDkAw

I posted a highlight video so that must make it true!

In 2016 Melo averaged 12 pts a game on just 39% FG shooting while taking the 2nd most shots on the team. He also accompanied that with 61% FT shooting.

In 2012 he averaged 16 pts a game on 53.5% shooting again taking the 2nd most shots on the game. Averaged 79% from the FT line too.

So again, the Olympics where Melo was "GOOD" was in 2012.

The stats you are giving are from a total of 8 games. Very easy for percentages to be skewed by just a couple bad games. You say 2nd most shots on the team, but he only averaged 10.5 shots a game and 5.6 of them were from 3. He was also 13-21 from the free throw line total. He also had 8 more total assist, 4 more rebounds, 1 more steal and 2 more blocks but yes he missed a few more shots.

Point is, he still played the same brand of basketball in 2016, as he did in 2012, which was in the flow of the offense.

Edit: Those Jimmer highlights does not make him like a good player lol

[HoustonPelicans]

So what happened to him in OKC?

I do think he will be better suited to Houstons system, but his best day's are gone.

He said what happened in OKC in his exit interview. He said it was a last minute thing kind of thrown together, he was traded there last minute and he said it seemed like they already had they game plan and didnt know how to fit him in. He said he would ask the coaching staff what they wanted and they didnt know, and he had to figure it out on his own. You're asking a guy to change his whole style of play, to be just a spot up shooter and you dont even have a game plan. Things could go bad. Melo has played on the wing his whole career and they just threw him in the post. But it's crazy his worse season of his career. 16.1ppg 5.8rpg, is still better than most SF's in the league.

[Mythrol]

The stats you are giving are from a total of 8 games. Very easy for percentages to be skewed by just a couple bad games. You say 2nd most shots on the team, but he only averaged 10.5 shots a game and 5.6 of them were from 3. He was also 13-21 from the free throw line total. He also had 8 more total assist, 4 more rebounds, 1 more steal and 2 more blocks but yes he missed a few more shots.

Point is, he still played the same brand of basketball in 2016, as he did in 2012, which was in the flow of the offense.

Edit: Those Jimmer highlights does not make him like a good player lol

If the stats are skewered then why is anyone claiming Melo was ever good at ANY Olympics? If you're saying the numbers are too low to make any judgement calls negative then the stats are too low to make any judgements PERIOD. Therefor you're entire argument is moot because no one can make any claims about how Melo or anyone else played in the Olympics at all.

Everything is small sample size with the Olympics and therefor irrelevant. In The NBA Melo has been a me first player who's numbers have been on decline as well as efficiency and he has shown nothing IN THE NBA that says that will change.

[HoustonPelicans]

If the stats are skewered then why is anyone claiming Melo was ever good at ANY Olympics? If you're saying the numbers are too low to make any judgement calls negative then the stats are too low to make any judgements PERIOD. Therefor you're entire argument is moot because no one can make any claims about how Melo or anyone else played in the Olympics at all.

Because people watched the games. They are talking about the style of play, not his stats. His NBA stats are way better than his Olympic stats so stats are not used in this justification. And he has 31 total Olympic games(not including preliminaries, 2006 and 2007, which would probably push that closer to 50 games) of evidence of the brand of basketball he played with USA.

Well actually it was 85 total Olympic games according to https://www.usab.com/basketball/play...y-carmelo.aspx

[Mythrol]

Because people watched the games. They are talking about the style of play, not his stats. His NBA stats are way better than his Olympic stats so stats are not used in this justification. And he has 31 total Olympic games(not including preliminaries, 2006 and 2007, which would probably push that closer to 50 games) of evidence of the brand of basketball he played with USA.

Well actually it was 85 total Olympic games according to https://www.usab.com/basketball/play...y-carmelo.aspx

I'm sorry but you already argued that I couldn't use his actual game stats because they are too small a sample and can be skewered. Therefor any judgements you make about his "style of play" is irrelevant because they are too small a sample size and can be easily skewered. So we are back to only looking at how he has played in the NBA.

[HoustonPelicans]

I'm sorry but you already argued that I couldn't use his actual game stats because they are too small a sample and can be skewered. Therefor any judgements you make about his "style of play" is irrelevant because they are too small a sample size and can be easily skewered. So we are back to only looking at how he has played in the NBA.

You used his stats over 8 games. He's played in 85 Olympic games. 2 vastly different sample sizes. Even based on his NBA play, most here were willing to give up a 1st round pick to get him last year, but after one season, wont take him on a minimum deal? Is Solomon Hill, and the camp bodies that much better than Melo?

[Mythrol]

You used his stats over 8 games. He's played in 85 Olympic games. 2 vastly different sample sizes. Even based on his NBA play, most here were willing to give up a 1st round pick to get him last year, but after one season, wont take him on a minimum deal? Is Solomon Hill, and the camp bodies that much better than Melo?

Have you watched all 85 of those games? Your claim is that you WATCHED his style of play and that is what you are judging him on. So did you watch those 85 games or did you actually just start paying attention in 2012 when all this USA basketball Melo hype started?

Now let's go down this path of him playing 85 USA basketball games. Let's assume for the sake of argument that Melo has played this different style of basketball consistently for 85 games with USA basketball. That would mean he has played 85 games, spent over 15 years involved with the men's national team and yet he still has NEVER shown he can consistently play unselfish basketball in the NBA. What grounds do we have to believe that Melo has changed at all if after 15 years and 85 games with USA basketball, he still has never changed his game in the NBA? I see zero evidence to suggest his NBA game will ever change.

Actually just the opposite of that. Only a few months ago in April Melo refused to come off the bench for the team. Still being the me first player he has always been in the NBA. But now suddenly 3 months later everything has changed and he's going to be a team player?

As far as your comment about giving up a 1st last year, I haven't wanted Melo on this team in years no matter the cost. Melo provides 1 thing, inefficient scoring. We already have plenty of scoring. We don't need his iso, ball stopping, lack of defense game anywhere near our team at any cost.

[HoustonPelicans]

Have you watched all 85 of those games? Your claim is that you WATCHED his style of play and that is what you are judging him on. So did you watch those 85 games or did you actually just start paying attention in 2012 when all this USA basketball Melo hype started?

Now let's go down this path of him playing 85 USA basketball games. Let's assume for the sake of argument that Melo has played this different style of basketball consistently for 85 games with USA basketball. That would mean he has played 85 games, spent over 15 years involved with the men's national team and yet he still has NEVER shown he can consistently play unselfish basketball in the NBA. What grounds do we have to believe that Melo has changed at all if after 15 years and 85 games with USA basketball, he still has never changed his game in the NBA? I see zero evidence to suggest his NBA game will ever change.

As far as your comment about giving up a 1st last year, I haven't wanted Melo on this team in years no matter the cost. Melo provides 1 thing, inefficient scoring. We already have plenty of scoring. We don't need his iso, ball stopping, lack of defense game anywhere near our team at any cost.

I've watched about 95% of the games since 2004. The Olympic Melo "hype" was way before 2012.

The selfish tag is not a fair narrative at all. Melo took Denver to the playoffs his first seven seasons, with not an overly great cast around him, but at least a good one. He took the Knicks to the playoffs his first 3 seasons with them, with an extremely decent cast. His last 4 seasons with the Knicks not one other person has averaged more than 15ppg on the team. He's being called selfish when he has played with no real talent in years, excluding last season. He hasnt had a real coach since George Karl. He was not inefficient in Denver, nor a ball stopper.

Melo is a proven winner. 10 time all star. 6x All NBA. MVP candidate. Future first ballot HOFer. One of the most clutch players of all time. You're talking about him as if he has been a scrub in the NBA. This guy buried us in the playoffs in 2009.

Edit: Just because he isn't a point forward, does not mean he is a selfish player. He is a scorer, and in the right system, with a good team he has proven he will flourish. His scoring in the playoffs will be valuable in the playoffs, playing against a Golden State team full of tough shot makers.

[Mythrol]

The selfish tag is not a fair narrative at all. He's being called selfish when he has played with no real talent in years, excluding last season. He hasnt had a real coach since George Karl. He was not inefficient in Denver, nor a ball stopper.

Melo is a proven winner. 10 time all star. 6x All NBA. MVP candidate. Future first ballot HOFer. You're talking about him as if he has been a scrub in the NBA. This guy buried us in the playoffs in 2009.

https://fansided.com/2018/04/29/carm...ome-off-bench/

Melo refused to come off the bench just a few months ago on a team with two NBA All Stars on it. He's just as selfish as he has always been.

The problem isn't with people talking about Melo like he is a scrub *now*. The problem is you are so caught up in the player Melo WAS that you can't see what type of player Melo is NOW. You still remember the Melo of 9 *NINE* Years ago at 25, as if that is relevant in the least to the Melo of now that is 34.

You still see Melo like Melo sees himself. That's the problem. Both of you are caught up in what happened years ago and ignore that he's not the same player he used to be. Again, his numbers and efficiency are declining and last year was by far his worst year ever as a pro. Last year he also refused to adapt his role to that of a bench player and still wants to be the star he USED to be.

If anything last year showed even when he got those talented players that everyone said he would be willing to change for, Melo was still going to be Melo and be just as selfish as ever.

Quick, someone go get 50+ year old Jordan on this team! I mean look at what he did in the mid 90s!

[HoustonPelicans]

https://fansided.com/2018/04/29/carm...ome-off-bench/

Melo refused to come off the bench just a few months ago on a team with two NBA All Stars on it. He's just as selfish as he has always been.

The problem isn't with people talking about Melo like he is a scrub *now*. The problem is you are so caught up in the player Melo WAS that you can't see what type of player Melo is NOW. You still remember the Melo of 9 *NINE* Years ago at 25, as if that is relevant in the least to the Melo of now that is 34.

You still see Melo like Melo sees himself. That's the problem. Both of you are caught up in what happened years ago and ignore that he's not the same player he used to be. Again, his numbers and efficiency are declining and last year was by far his worst year ever as a pro. Last year he also refused to adapt his role to that of a bench player and still wants to be the star he USED to be.

Do you think Steph, Klay, KD or Draymond would accept a bench role? Highly unlikely, does that make them selfish players? Asking a highly decorated player, who was an allstar just a year prior to come off the bench because the Coach could not figure it off after 60 games is insulting. Melo is not a bench player, but he's also not Anthony Morrow and wants to do more than just sit in the corner. And because he is capable any *smart* coach would utilize that, as Gentry would.

Melo doesnt have to be the 25+ppg of old. 16-18ppg Melo is great for us and would make our offense that much more lethal.

I'm seeing Melo in the right system, around a bunch of unselfish stars and role players. Which our team has. His ISO ball plays can be used in the flow of the offense, a lot like Golden State uses KD when they need a quick bucket. It's much easier to be unselfish playing with an unselfish group and unselfish stars like Jrue, AD and eventually Randle. Heck, even Cousins was making a major turnaround the last few weeks leading up to his injury. Unselfishness and humility is contagious, and that is our team.

[PELICANSFAN]

Does it matter? He is not signing here anyway.

[Mythrol]

Do you think Steph, Klay, KD or Draymond would accept a bench role?

I think this is the core of our difference right here. You see Melo on the same level as those players and he's simply not. He's Vince Carter at this point in his career.

[Pelicanidae]

Do you think Steph, Klay, KD or Draymond would accept a bench role? Highly unlikely, does that make them selfish players? Asking a highly decorated player, who was an allstar just a year prior to come off the bench because the Coach could not figure it off after 60 games is insulting. Melo is not a bench player, but he's also not Anthony Morrow and wants to do more than just sit in the corner. And because he is capable any *smart* coach would utilize that, as Gentry would.

Melo doesnt have to be the 25+ppg of old. 16-18ppg Melo is great for us and would make our offense that much more lethal.

I'm seeing Melo in the right system, around a bunch of unselfish stars and role players. Which our team has. His ISO ball plays can be used in the flow of the offense, a lot like Golden State uses KD when they need a quick bucket. It's much easier to be unselfish playing with an unselfish group and unselfish stars like Jrue, AD and eventually Randle. Heck, even Cousins was making a major turnaround the last few weeks leading up to his injury. Unselfishness and humility is contagious, and that is our team.

You know that's an awful comparison. You don't need me to tell you that.

Leaving out the fact that actually yes, I DO think Draymond would accept a bench role if necessary, comparing 33 year old Melo to any of those guys is totally dishonest.

Curry is 29 years old, 2x MVP, who was just 0.5% off yet another 50/40/90 season. 0.267 win shares per 48, 28.2 PER in his last season.
Durant is also 29 years old, also an MVP, 2x Finals MVP, who was 0.1% off his third 50/40/90 season. 0.215 win shares per 48, 26.0 PER in his last season.
Klay is 27 years old, one of the greatest shooters of all time, just finished off last season with 48/44/83 splits, 0.094 win shares per 48, 16.1 PER (as the third option)
Draymond is also only 27 years old, he's a DPOY, one of the most versatile players in the game, 0.127 win shares per 48, 16.1 PER as a guy who doesn't even score.

Compare all of those to Melo, who is 33 years old and in his last all star season posted up shooting splits of 43/35.9/83, 0.89 win shares per 48, and a 17.9 PER as the first option on his team. He is not in the same WORLD as those players, and to compare him to them at this point in his career is total false equivalence.

The problem with Melo is exactly that ''he's also not Anthony Morrow and wants to do more than just sit in the corner''. He wants to be the guy, he wants the ball in his hands, he wants his 18+ shots a game, he wants his isolation possessions, and he is just not good enough anymore to make that anything other than a stupid thing to do. Carmelo Anthony's ISO game in his last allstar season only created 0.99 points per possession. That's fine, it's not awful, but it's not even as good as Lance Stephenson in that same season. It puts him in the 78th percentile. That's not incredible.

And if you actually look at the isolations he got in OKC, was he any better? No, he wasn't. In fact he was worse, only contributing 0.89 ppp and falling to the 58th percentile. And he got 3 isolation shots per game: 18.1% of his offense was ISO ball, and he wasn't even as good as (to take a relevant player for us) Elfrid Payton! Who put up 0.90 ppp in isolation plays, and was in the 61st percentile, and he's widely regarded as a guy who isn't even a scorer.

Melo is not good. When you say the 25+ppg Melo of old, you're talking real old: he's only put up 25+ppg four times in the last 10 years, and once in the last 5. That's not bad, of course I'm not saying that, very few people average 25+ppg. But when your sole selling point is your ability to score, it gets kind of embarrassing if you're the first option on your team that whole time, and can't do it more than 20% of the time (1 out of the last 5 years).

[msusousaphone]

Dang. This past week has been slow.

Starting to feel like a bunch of sailors stuck in the doldrums. Auspel is turning into a gorgeous mermaid right in front of me.....

[ml wave]

A) The word you guys are looking for is skewed, not skewered...

2) It's somewhat disingenuous to claim that Melo has suffered from subpar teammates, cite Lin as the exception that proves the rule, but ignore that Melo basically ran Lin off the Knicks.

[tyler]

Didn’t d-wade come off the bench and I would rather D-Wade than Melo

[Pelicanidae]

Didn’t d-wade come off the bench and I would rather D-Wade than Melo

Yep, Wade came off the bench in Cleveland.

[Mythrol]

Dang. This past week has been slow.

Starting to feel like a bunch of sailors stuck in the doldrums. Auspel is turning into a gorgeous mermaid right in front of me.....

This legit made me Lol.

[HoustonPelicans]

I think this is the core of our difference right here. You see Melo on the same level as those players and he's simply not. He's Vince Carter at this point in his career.

Not what I was saying. I see him as a starter and I outlined that. Not a star. Maybe I shouldn't have used those guys but not the point I was trying to make. Our core difference is I see him as a top 15-20 SF in the league and a starter. And you see him as a 40 year old Vince Carter.

[HoustonPelicans]

You know that's an awful comparison. You don't need me to tell you that.

Leaving out the fact that actually yes, I DO think Draymond would accept a bench role if necessary, comparing 33 year old Melo to any of those guys is totally dishonest.

Curry is 29 years old, 2x MVP, who was just 0.5% off yet another 50/40/90 season. 0.267 win shares per 48, 28.2 PER in his last season.
Durant is also 29 years old, also an MVP, 2x Finals MVP, who was 0.1% off his third 50/40/90 season. 0.215 win shares per 48, 26.0 PER in his last season.
Klay is 27 years old, one of the greatest shooters of all time, just finished off last season with 48/44/83 splits, 0.094 win shares per 48, 16.1 PER (as the third option)
Draymond is also only 27 years old, he's a DPOY, one of the most versatile players in the game, 0.127 win shares per 48, 16.1 PER as a guy who doesn't even score.

Compare all of those to Melo, who is 33 years old and in his last all star season posted up shooting splits of 43/35.9/83, 0.89 win shares per 48, and a 17.9 PER as the first option on his team. He is not in the same WORLD as those players, and to compare him to them at this point in his career is total false equivalence.

The problem with Melo is exactly that ''he's also not Anthony Morrow and wants to do more than just sit in the corner''. He wants to be the guy, he wants the ball in his hands, he wants his 18+ shots a game, he wants his isolation possessions, and he is just not good enough anymore to make that anything other than a stupid thing to do. Carmelo Anthony's ISO game in his last allstar season only created 0.99 points per possession. That's fine, it's not awful, but it's not even as good as Lance Stephenson in that same season. It puts him in the 78th percentile. That's not incredible.

And if you actually look at the isolations he got in OKC, was he any better? No, he wasn't. In fact he was worse, only contributing 0.89 ppp and falling to the 58th percentile. And he got 3 isolation shots per game: 18.1% of his offense was ISO ball, and he wasn't even as good as (to take a relevant player for us) Elfrid Payton! Who put up 0.90 ppp in isolation plays, and was in the 61st percentile, and he's widely regarded as a guy who isn't even a scorer.

Melo is not good. When you say the 25+ppg Melo of old, you're talking real old: he's only put up 25+ppg four times in the last 10 years, and once in the last 5. That's not bad, of course I'm not saying that, very few people average 25+ppg. But when your sole selling point is your ability to score, it gets kind of embarrassing if you're the first option on your team that whole time, and can't do it more than 20% of the time (1 out of the last 5 years).

I feel like yall are really trying to force words into my mouth, with the Melo is still a star stuff. I said he is still a quality starter in this league, that's all.

Show me one quote where Melo said he wants to be the guy, he wants 18 shots a game, he wants ISO possessions or any of that? He has an 18 minute exit interview go find one quote where he said any of that. That is pure speculation. All he said is he is not accepting a bench role. Chris Paul at 33 year old, just squeezed every possible dollar he could out of a Max deal from Houston and nobody said a word. All of a sudden a More accomplished Melo is not worth the minimum because of bad situations?

New York and OKC had terrible offensive systems. Some of the worse in the NBA. Any analyst will at least agree with that part. I dont know why that would not affect Melo? Of course his numbers will look worse when the team and system is complete garbage and every team entire gameplan is against you. Of course his numbers will look worse playing with what Russ is allowed to do in OKC, and he's asked to just stand in the corner or on the block with no real schemes. How are the coaches and front offices completely escaping any blame? Weird.

Nobody said 25+Ppg Melo, I even said not that Melo. I said 16-18ppg Melo will be good. And Melo scored 21+ppg for 14 straight seasons, why are you saying he hasnt had the ability to score? What? Melo cant score but his worse season he averaged 16ppg. I'm sorry but these narratives have no basis.

Again a smart coach and a good team will utilize Melo's strengths the right way. You dont have to ISO him all game for him to be effective, but it can in certain situations be used as a weapon. He could get 3-4 Iso possessions all game and it will make our offense that much more of a threat.

[HoustonPelicans]

This reminds me of the narratives that were out there for Rondo last summer. With Carlisle and Kings organization completely escaping blame. Within a year that narrative quickly changed, and Rondo is loved for his leadership and locker room presence. I still remember when he was a "locker room issue" though...

[Mythrol]

Not what I was saying. I see him as a starter and I outlined that. Not a star. Maybe I shouldn't have used those guys but not the point I was trying to make. Our core difference is I see him as a top 15-20 SF in the league and a starter. And you see him as a 40 year old Vince Carter.

Even if Melo were a top 15-20 SF right now, he wouldn't be a top 15 SF in our system. He would be a terrible fit in Gentry's system.

[Pelicanidae]

I feel like yall are really trying to force words into my mouth, with the Melo is still a star stuff. I said he is still a quality starter in this league, that's all. .

I'm genuinely confused as to whether or not you read my post, or whether you just decided you knew what it said beforehand and went off top.

''Show me one quote where Melo said he wants to be the guy''. I don't need to, players say all kinds of things, what matters is what they put out onto the court. Melo has only taken less than 18 shots per game 3 times in his career: his first two years, and this last season, in which he was totally unhappy and played like it. It doesn't matter what he says, it matters what he does and what he does is shoot 18+ times a game, or mope.

''Chris Paul at 33 years old, just squeezed every possible dollar he could out of a Max deal from Houston and nobody said a word.'' Chris Paul just came off averaging 18/5.4/7.9 on 46/38/92 splits, had an ORTG of 126 and a DRTG of 105, giving him a net rating of +21. He had 0.265 win shares per 48 and a 24.4 PER. He was the difference between going to the finals for Houston, and not. That's why people were less outraged by it: he's still producing at an elite level. And people actually are already saying that by the end of that contract he'll be overpaid, so it's not like people are saying nothing.

''All of a sudden a More accomplished Melo is not worth the minimum'' ; in what universe is Melo more accomplished than CP3? CP3 is 9x allstar, 4x assists leader, 6x steals leader, 8x all NBA, 9x all defensive team, and all star MVP. Melo is 10x all-star, 1x scoring champ, 6x all NBA, 0 all defensive teams. CP3 has also consistently made the playoffs in the West: Melo has been consistently missing the playoffs in the East. There is no real world where Melo is more accomplished in the NBA than CP3.

Nobody expects Melo to be dragging his team to the finals or anything: like you said, New York and OKC were bad offensive systems, and unless you're Lebron there's only so much you can do. But you can't have it both ways: in OKC, his numbers were terrible because he was just asked to stand on the block or the corner with no scheme, and that means it's not his fault. Okay. So why does he also get no blame for when he's in New York and he was allowed to do whatever he wanted offensively the majority of the time?

When he's allowed to do what he wants, and the team loses, it's the coach's fault. When he's not allowed to do what he wants and the team loses, it's also the coach's fault. No, neither of those teams have had great systems, but the fact remains that Melo hasn't exactly been helping. His individual stats are worthless. The coaches suck, but who cares? Plenty of players have been doing better than Melo has, under awful coaching. I know it's kind of an unfair, easy-win comparison, but look at who he was drafted with: Lebron James. Lebron has had some of the least competent coaches and teams of all time and has taken them to the finals. Melo can't get better casts to 35 wins consistently.

''Why are you saying he hasn't had the ability to score'' I'm not. Try reading the part where I said ''he's only put up 25+ppg four times in the last 10 years, and once in the last 5. That's not bad, of course I'm not saying that, very few people average 25+ppg.'' I recognise he has, when he has been given free reign to shoot as much as he likes whenever he likes, been able to score. My point is that his scoring ability hasn't been what it once was for a long time, and what it is now is no longer the very best of the best. Which it isn't. He is no longer a good enough scorer to off-set all the other holes in his game.

''You don't have to ISO him all game for him to be effective [...] he could get 3-4 ISO possessions all game and it will make our offense that much more of a threat.'' No it won't. He got 3 ISO possessions per game last season and he was in the 58th percentile as a scorer in those situations. He did not turn those possessions into effective scoring opportunities. How is our system, which is predicated on up-tempo, early in the shot clock offense, going to improve by the addition of a relatively slow 34 year old who wants to slow the game down?

[HoustonPelicans]

Even if Melo were a top 15-20 SF right now, he wouldn't be a top 15 SF in our system. He would be a terrible fit in Gentry's system.

How is he a terrible fit in Gentry's system? He's an absolute offensive weapon, he can shoot from mid range and 3, score on anybody, play in the post, facilitate. Not saying he will be asked to do all of those things all of the time, but just the threat of having it and using it efficiently will make our offense that much potent. We are a film watching team, our guys are not going to let Melo just jack up shots nor do I think he will want to. Melo is about winning. It's about communication. Melo will listen to AD. I still remember that 2012 Olympics, AD said Melo was the main one who took him under his wing.

[N.O.Bronco]

Does it matter? He is not signing here anyway.

Pretty much this.

Melo is getting bought out and either going to chase the biggest payday he can find(not us) or play for a contender with a close friend on the roster(also not us).

Either way Melo is either going to confirm or disprove the doubts somewhere other than New Orleans, unless it is in a visitors uniform.