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Thread: Mav optimistic about Cousins

  1. #51
    DMC = Loyalty

    The Pels have never not been loyal to their free agents. A five year contract at less per year can always net more than a four year contract. If it doesn't work, stretch it.

    I fully expect Boogie back on a massive but not totally maxed out contract that perhaps tapers off at the end like Asik's but still outpaces what other folks can bring (due to bird rights).

    Dallas sucks (and Mark Cuban sucks) and they can't win a chip with a former NOLA center unless Jason Terry tattoos another Larry O'Brien Trophy on his arm.

  2. #52
    As much as I love Cousins and his style on the court, I don't buy into Dallas investing so much money for him because he's a bad fit with their team.

    With their current core of Smith/Matthews/Barnes/Donicic, they need a big who can protect the rim. Since hirs surgery Matthews was never the same and only Barnes should be a plus defender (Donicic might be good there but he's a rookie so it's highly unlikely he will be a great defender within the next two years). So basically this team will need a shot-blocker to erase mistakes for their perimeter player.

    Cousins became a smart positional defender and he's good at disrupting passing lane, but he stills lack the needed rim protection. That's why him and AD complete each others and have a great deal of potential on the defensive end. Also on the offensive end, the mavs love to run pick & roll with multiple ball handlers (should be mostly Smith and Donicic) with the center diving to the rim in the Tyson Chandler's mold. As we seen it, it's not a good way to maximizes Boogie's talent.

    Dallas signing him would be a poor fit and would likely backfire for both side.

    Anyway I hope Boogie is back next year wtih the pels, he's the only player I love to watch play even at 3 in the morning while this team lose in a blowout.

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Rheem654 View Post
    Yea thatís true in some sense but I think some are overlooking how much he relied on a quick first step for his drives to the basket and overal footwork.
    Doesn't matter how much he relies on being explosive. As a player if you are less than what you use to be in a league this gifted it will effect the way you play. The question is if he is permanently robbed of his physical gifts (which we all hope not) can he adjust.

  4. #54
    We recently moved from NO > Houston, and all the talk radio is centered around Dallas outbidding Rockets on Capella and losing him. Same exact conversation, different names. And honestly, I’d go after Capella first if I were the Mavs for multiple reasons.

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by da ThRONe View Post
    It's not that I'm against re-signing Cousins even if it takes a full max necessarily. I just been around this board for a while and I've seen the term "we have to" use when talking about a few signings and some of them set the franchise back. So I'm against the idea that this signing is something we must do. This has as much potential to be detrimental both short and long term as it does being beneficial. That to me is far from a no brainer.
    Exactly how are we set back? We actually have more superstars on our team now than Philly who has been tanking up until this year. We are in a position that half the league would love to be in.

    You know how we could be set back for real? If AD gets upset because we are trying to play games and demands to be traded. That would really mess up the franchise.

  6. #56
    If Cousins leaves the Pels, the absolute last thing this team, or any small market team can afford, is for it to be because they are out-priced in the market. That is the case even more so in this instance. If we gamble with Boogie and someone steals him chances are AD moves on next year. Can't have him be another Kawhi. Give Boogie max of his choice on table. 2,4,5 yrs. whatever, and if he still goes AD will still see us as being committed. Plus, it makes it more likely Boogie would at least agree to a S&T with Wash or maybe even the team that offered him more as an additional option.

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Nail View Post
    If Cousins leaves the Pels, the absolute last thing this team, or any small market team can afford, is for it to be because they are out-priced in the market. That is the case even more so in this instance. If we gamble with Boogie and someone steals him chances are AD moves on next year. Can't have him be another Kawhi. Give Boogie max of his choice on table. 2,4,5 yrs. whatever, and if he still goes AD will still see us as being committed. Plus, it makes it more likely Boogie would at least agree to a S&T with Wash or maybe even the team that offered him more as an additional option.
    I'll even take it a step further and say lets assume he comes back at 50% of himself and takes till 2019 to only still be 75% of what he was before and that is his ceiling. Still worth it, because AD is here and we are a tax team regardless going forward. AD's supermax is 46mil per. if my memory is correct. Also, pretty sure Ms Gayle is satisfied with the 1 billion value she already has in 6 yrs, and the likely-hood of it's continued growth with the showing of their commitment.
    Last edited by Silver Nail; 06-23-2018 at 10:12 AM.

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Nail View Post
    If Cousins leaves the Pels, the absolute last thing this team, or any small market team can afford, is for it to be because they are out-priced in the market. That is the case even more so in this instance. If we gamble with Boogie and someone steals him chances are AD moves on next year. Can't have him be another Kawhi. Give Boogie max of his choice on table. 2,4,5 yrs. whatever, and if he still goes AD will still see us as being committed. Plus, it makes it more likely Boogie would at least agree to a S&T with Wash or maybe even the team that offered him more as an additional option.
    Then that would make Boogie look bad, because if we max him, it would be for more than anyone else can give him (we can give 8% raises, everyone else 5%)

    When we offer him the max, he will sign on the line. The negotiations should come in the years, 2+1, 3+1, or 5

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by soggymoss View Post
    Then that would make Boogie look bad, because if we max him, it would be for more than anyone else can give him (we can give 8% raises, everyone else 5%)

    When we offer him the max, he will sign on the line. The negotiations should come in the years, 2+1, 3+1, or 5
    .
    Nothing to negotiate, let him tell us what he prefers. Shorter deals give him a chance for more down the line, but less security. His choice.

  10. #60
    One week and one day til July 1, fellas! This is the Calm Before the Storm

  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Mythrol View Post
    Exactly how are we set back? We actually have more superstars on our team now than Philly who has been tanking up until this year. We are in a position that half the league would love to be in.

    You know how we could be set back for real? If AD gets upset because we are trying to play games and demands to be traded. That would really mess up the franchise.
    Gordon and Asik set the franchise back Hill is still hurting ilus right now. Let's not act like they didn't just because we are not bottom feeders right now. The whole we need to please AD thing therefore we can't do what's unpopular is a terrible logic base. If we sign Cousins to a max and he's god awful for the next 4 years while making max money please don't tell me that doesn't set us back. Winning will keep Davis happy not paying somebody(even though he obviously like him) a ton to be a bad player.

  12. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Heavy View Post
    We recently moved from NO > Houston, and all the talk radio is centered around Dallas outbidding Rockets on Capella and losing him. Same exact conversation, different names. And honestly, I’d go after Capella first if I were the Mavs for multiple reasons.
    This is what I'm thinking. Capela, or possibly Jordan. Someone who can just grab rebounds and play defense.

  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by da ThRONe View Post
    Gordon and Asik set the franchise back Hill is still hurting ilus right now. Let's not act like they didn't just because we are not bottom feeders right now. The whole we need to please AD thing therefore we can't do what's unpopular is a terrible logic base. If we sign Cousins to a max and he's god awful for the next 4 years while making max money please don't tell me that doesn't set us back. Winning will keep Davis happy not paying somebody(even though he obviously like him) a ton to be a bad player.
    Again, Cousins game is not based on athleticism, he wont be "god awful".. Best case he comes back 110%the player he was before the injury, worst case he comes back 80%, which Boogie at 80%is still a top 5 C in the league, and top 30 player, and very much worth a max...

    On the flip side, we dont pay DC, we force AD to play the 5 spot, he becomes disgruntled and demands a trade, then we are really set back

  14. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by da ThRONe View Post
    Gordon and Asik set the franchise back Hill is still hurting ilus right now. Let's not act like they didn't just because we are not bottom feeders right now. The whole we need to please AD thing therefore we can't do what's unpopular is a terrible logic base. If we sign Cousins to a max and he's god awful for the next 4 years while making max money please don't tell me that doesn't set us back. Winning will keep Davis happy not paying somebody(even though he obviously like him) a ton to be a bad player.
    GOD AWFUL? What does that even mean? Unable to play at all? Then ask and receive medical cap relief much like Miami with Bosh. Able to play at 50% of previous self, (13 pts-6 reb)? Then gamble still worth it because AD is here and with time Boogie will improve. Even if he doesn't, AD is here. Now I'm only expressing my opinion as to how I expect AD to respond. I don't know for certain, nor do you concerning him staying as long as we win. But perception is reality in the minds of most people and I think AD will ask himself could this happen to him (major injury) next season before next summer supermax deal. Like I said herein, don't want him thinking like Kwahi. MAX BOOGIE and worry about it later. Too much at stake not to.

  15. #65
    Pistol Pete Would Be Proud!! Pelicanidae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soggymoss View Post
    Again, Cousins game is not based on athleticism, he wont be "god awful".. Best case he comes back 110%the player he was before the injury, worst case he comes back 80%, which Boogie at 80%is still a top 5 C in the league, and top 30 player, and very much worth a max...

    On the flip side, we dont pay DC, we force AD to play the 5 spot, he becomes disgruntled and demands a trade, then we are really set back
    I agree.

    If you were to design a player for optimum recovery from an injury like this, what kind of player would you design? Surely it would be someone who relies more on strength than agility. Someone who relies more on skill and footwork than on athleticism and explosion. Someone who can shoot, rather than someone who must slash every play. Someone who can playmake, rather than someone who takes every possession to themselves. Someone who can play a style of physical ball that uses more upper body strength than lower.

    Essentially, you'd design Boogie. Or at least, you'd design someone pretty close to him.

    "Kahwi Leonard will be a Pelican. Please make me a signature." - Silverfoxx

  16. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by da ThRONe View Post
    Gordon and Asik set the franchise back Hill is still hurting ilus right now. Let's not act like they didn't just because we are not bottom feeders right now. The whole we need to please AD thing therefore we can't do what's unpopular is a terrible logic base. If we sign Cousins to a max and he's god awful for the next 4 years while making max money please don't tell me that doesn't set us back. Winning will keep Davis happy not paying somebody(even though he obviously like him) a ton to be a bad player.
    You didn't answer the question though. HOW were we set back? You're making this claim that we were set back *years* but if you compare our "process" to Philly's we actually have more star players. We are in a better position than well over half the teams in the league.

    I don't buy into the myth that because we had a couple bad contracts the team was set back years. We weren't. Nor do I believe if Cousins comes back and is only 80% of himself will our team be set back years.

    Look maybe we sign Cousins and AD still leaves, but at least we took that shot of doing everything we could to show him we wanted to build a winner around him.

    People want to talk about how it's a "risk" to resign Cousins, the way I see it is a risk not resigning him. One way is guaranteed to upset AD and maybe force him into demanding a trade. "Winning will keep AD happy"... Will it?!?!?! Did it keep Kyrie happy? Did it keep Leonard happy? Players get tired of bad management and ask to be moved all the time. Even players that win titles. Is just making it to the playoffs going to be enough to keep AD happy? Was it enough for Hayward that Utah was a playoff team?

    So we are in a situation where we have an injured Superstar on the team. A good enough player that if he comes back healthy will push us to fighting for a top 2 spot in the West but people are afraid of his injury so they want to play games and risk letting him walk due to not paying him. We have seen what this team is without Cousins. We are capped out. Is winning a game or two in the 2nd round before going home going to be enough to keep AD here? This is without even mentioning the fact that if we let Cousins walk AD is back to playing the 5. A position he has made it more than clear he does not want to play.

    Yeah. Let's play AD at a position he doesn't want to be at, while cheaping out and not paying a superstar to stay here - a player AD has already went on record saying he wants back, and let's hope that making the playoffs and maybe being a 2nd round exit along with all this other stuff is enough to keep AD from wanting to leave.

    Life is full of risks. But there is only one way we have a chance of contending and keeping AD long term from the position we are currently in and that goes through Cousins. What's the worst case if it all goes bad anyway? We are rebuilding in a couple years after AD leaves? Odds are very high we are still in that exact same situation anyway if we let Cousins walk.

    So sure. There's risks. But as for me, I'm taking the risk that has at least the possibility of us competing for a title.

  17. #67
    Boogie is going to get max. Demps knows he has to do this. Itís worth the risk. Cousins is young and he is incredibly skilled. We wonít get anyone better than him. Heís not going to be a terrible center. No. I bet he adapts his game and is in great shape. He will be on the court next season and he will contribute. Gotta sign him and rondo.


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  18. #68
    I swear I don't even know why I come to this board sometimes. People act like they don't understand basic concepts. How is god awful not an understood term? How can people act like there's no inherit risk to signing a player coming off one of the most damaging injuries in basketball?

    Boogie's game doesn't have to be heavily predicated on explosiveness to have his impact substantial reduce if his athleticism is permanently reduced. Again we all hope that's not the case and I agree guys who are skill based player or a safer bet to recover closer, but the risk still exist.

    I disagree that we are in better position than the Sixers. I will give Demps his props for fixing a lot of his messes but there's still some left and Cousins until proven otherwise is no longer a safe bet.

    With all that said I again don't disagree that our best option is to try and re-sign Boogie.

  19. #69
    Pistol Pete Would Be Proud!! Pelicanidae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by da ThRONe View Post
    I swear I don't even know why I come to this board sometimes. People act like they don't understand basic concepts. How is god awful not an understood term? How can people act like there's no inherit risk to signing a player coming off one of the most damaging injuries in basketball?

    Boogie's game doesn't have to be heavily predicated on explosiveness to have his impact substantial reduce if his athleticism is permanently reduced. Again we all hope that's not the case and I agree guys who are skill based player or a safer bet to recover closer, but the risk still exist.

    I disagree that we are in better position than the Sixers. I will give Demps his props for fixing a lot of his messes but there's still some left and Cousins until proven otherwise is no longer a safe bet.

    With all that said I again don't disagree that our best option is to try and re-sign Boogie.
    I think part of the reason ''god awful'' is ''not an understood term'' is because it is by definition a value judgement, and therefore inherently subjective. What you mean by god awful might be entirely different from what I think is god awful, because there is no authoritative ruling as to what constitutes god awful-ness. If you want to say he's worse, then you have to establish by which metrics.

    Aside from that pedantry, I don't think anyone is acting like there's no inherent risk to signing a player coming off a huge injury. But there's also a risk to not signing him, which you seem to be (mostly) leaving out of your calculation.

    You'd probably be right if we had the following options:
    A) Resign Boogie for the max, have him come back however he comes back, and move on.
    B) Don't resign Boogie, move on.

    But we don't have those options. What we actually have is something more like this:
    A) Resign Boogie for the max, have him come back however he comes back, and move on.
    B) Don't resign Boogie, try to move on, but accept that there is a risk of alienating the best player in franchise history in choosing this option, potentially driving him out of town given that this is against his expressly stated desires.

    Now, again, this is a subjective judgement, but I would argue that option B is by far worse than option A. You may disagree, and that's absolutely fine, but someone picking A is not acting ''like there's no inherent risk'' to signing Boogie, they're just recognising that B is arguably a much worse scenario that is to be avoided.

    It would be nice if this were a case of just understanding ''basic concepts'' but unfortunately, there are risks on both sides, and it's not just a case of people ignoring the risks; it's more a case of them recognising more of the potential risks, and making their own judgement based on that recognition.

  20. #70
    We will sign Boogie. Zero Doubt


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  21. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by da ThRONe View Post
    How can people act like there's no inherit risk to signing a player coming off one of the most damaging injuries in basketball?

    I disagree that we are in better position than the Sixers.

    With all that said I again don't disagree that our best option is to try and re-sign Boogie.
    Who said resigning Cousins wasn't a risk? I think everyone acknowledges that there is risk involved with resigning him. We are stuck in a crap position so we simply have to make the best of it. Something can be risky and still the decision is a no brainer.

    Also who said we are in a better position than Philly? I said we have more stars than Philly, which we do, but I think it's debatable who is better off. We have to see how Cousins comes back and how Simmons and Embiid develop 1st.

    I think that is everyone's point, the best option is to resign Cousins. It's all sucky choices we have to chose from because of the injury, but it's still the best choice.

  22. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by pelicanchamp View Post
    We will sign Boogie. Zero Doubt


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    Yeah me too. I just wonder about the details. It’s not like Demps isn’t willing to overpay for what he wants.

  23. #73
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    My hope is he takes a little less to possibly win more over the next couple years. He should understand our position from his injury and our cap situation. We can’t compete without filling the bench with some credible players and we need a few bucks to do it. There is a win win and that starts with him. Sign Cousins to a 2+1 (25, 29, 34, the cap goes up 6 or 7 million so we give him the majority of that), he gets a good bit of money, and he can still opt out and get super max if he’s injury free in a couple years. We don’t save a whole lot but a couple million could go far.

  24. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by tdcreator View Post
    My hope is he takes a little less to possibly win more over the next couple years. He should understand our position from his injury and our cap situation. We canít compete without filling the bench with some credible players and we need a few bucks to do it. There is a win win and that starts with him. Sign Cousins to a 2+1 (25, 29, 34, the cap goes up 6 or 7 million so we give him the majority of that), he gets a good bit of money, and he can still opt out and get super max if heís injury free in a couple years. We donít save a whole lot but a couple million could go far.
    Saving money helps if we have to trade Cousins, however it doesn't really affect who we can sign because once we are in the tax we are limited with options anyway.

    As far as the deal you suggest goes we can't offer that because you can only do 8% raises a year. So a 3 year deal starting at 25m would only be 25m, 27m, then 29.16m.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mythrol View Post
    Saving money helps if we have to trade Cousins, however it doesn't really affect who we can sign because once we are in the tax we are limited with options anyway.

    As far as the deal you suggest goes we can't offer that because you can only do 8% raises a year. So a 3 year deal starting at 25m would only be 25m, 27m, then 29.16m.
    Thanks. I was hoping that only counted towards max contracts. Tyler Johnson got like 6m for a couple years then like 19 for a couple. The other thing is I thought giving Cousins max put us well into the luxury tax but less would give us some wiggle room. Boogie and rondo (26 and 3.9) puts us just over the hard cap at 126 with Ajinca and hill which could be moved.

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