Fun stats from NBA.com about the Portland series.

[P_B_&_G]

http://www.nba.com/article/2018/04/2...-4-performance

Here are six incredible stats on the night Davis and Holiday put together:

1. Davis became the first player with at least 47 points, 11 rebounds and 3 blocks in a playoff game since Hakeem Olajuwon in 1987. Olajuwon played 53 minutes in a double-overtime loss to the then-Seattle SuperSonics, recording 49 points, 25 rebounds and six blocks.

2. Davis' 47 points are a postseason franchise record. It's also the most points scored in a closeout game since Kobe Bryant dropped 48 against the Sacramento Kings in Game 4 of the 2001 Western Conference semis.

3. Holiday poured in 41 points to go along with Davis' 47. It marked the first time a pair of teammates in NBA history both scored 40 points in a closeout game.

4. The combined 88 points between the Pelicans' duo is tied with Boston Celtics legends John Havlicek and JoJo White for the most points by two teammates in any playoff game in NBA history. Havlicek scored 54 and White added 34 in their 1973 win over the Atlanta Hawks.

5. Davis and Holiday became just the third pair of teammates to each score at least 40 points on 60 percent shooting in the same playoff game. The other duos are Jalen Rose and Reggie Miller (2000) and Hakeem Olajuwon and Clyde Drexler (1995).

6. Davis is now averaging 32.3 points in his eight-game postseason career, with a total of 258 points. Only Michael Jordan (283) and LeBron James (266) have scored more points in their first eight playoff games over the last 40 years.

The last two are my favorites but look at that stat line from Olajuwon in number 1!

[wnelson]

I can not stay still.... Can't wait till tomorrow

[P_B_&_G]

So looking at these stats made me look at some playoff scoring records and it led me to this.

For those that think Lebron is the GOAT, I give you this... (I love Lebron and all but he isn't the GOAT)

Players who have scored 50 or more points in a playoff game.

It has occurred 34 times in playoff history by 22 different players. Only four players have scored 50 or more points on more than one occasion: Michael Jordan (eight times), Wilt Chamberlain (four times), Allen Iverson (three times) and Jerry West (twice).

Most points, game
63 - Michael Jordan, Chicago at Boston, April 20, 1986 (2 OT) (He actually lost this game)

Most consecutive games, 20 or more points
60 - Michael Jordan, Chicago, June 2, 1989 - May 11, 1993 (60 playoff games in a row over 20!)

Jordan also score between 45 to 49 15 times.

So the guy had 23 playoff games that he scored over 45 points.

For comparison, Lebron has 8 games over 45 and has never had more than 49, which he did twice.

Then there's always the rings. 6 for Jordan, 3 for Lebron and counting.

https://www.basketball-reference.com...ts_game_p.html

Sorry for deraiing my own thread! LOL

Hopefully AD can get into this conversation!

[Pelicanidae]

So looking at these stats made me look at some playoff scoring records and it led me to this.

For those that think Lebron is the GOAT, I give you this... (I love Lebron and all but he isn't the GOAT)

Players who have scored 50 or more points in a playoff game.

It has occurred 34 times in playoff history by 22 different players. Only four players have scored 50 or more points on more than one occasion: Michael Jordan (eight times), Wilt Chamberlain (four times), Allen Iverson (three times) and Jerry West (twice).

Most points, game
63 - Michael Jordan, Chicago at Boston, April 20, 1986 (2 OT) (He actually lost this game)

Most consecutive games, 20 or more points
60 - Michael Jordan, Chicago, June 2, 1989 - May 11, 1993 (60 playoff games in a row over 20!)

Jordan also score between 45 to 49 15 times.

So the guy had 23 playoff games that he scored over 45 points.

For comparison, Lebron has 8 games over 45 and has never had more than 49, which he did twice.

Then there's always the rings. 6 for Jordan, 3 for Lebron and counting.

https://www.basketball-reference.com...ts_game_p.html

Sorry for deraiing my own thread! LOL

Hopefully AD can get into this conversation!

We don't need to get into the discussion over whether MJ is better than LeBron. He's not. LeBron is definitively the better basketball player. MJ is definitively the better scorer.

I remember watching that 63 point game online, that was the one where he was getting swept in the first round for the second straight year I think.

[P_B_&_G]

Okay

1st team all defense awards:
Jordan has 9
Lebron has 5

DPOY
Jordan 1
Ja
NBA Finals
Jordan 6 for 6
James 3 for 8

Like I said I love Lebron and he is without a doubt the best player of this generation and about as close as anyone has been to Jordan, but he isn't the GOAT. I was so excited when Lebron came out of high school. It was amazing to watch him actually live up to the hype and honestly probably exceed it.

What is it that makes you feel that James is better? I'm honestly asking here because most things that most people look at to pick a guy point to Jordan. To be honest I haven't looked at advanced stats on them. Mainly just playoff results and ability to will a team to a win in crunch time. Lebron is certainly bigger and faster and a better passer but that doesn't make him better. Just a little different style player.

Did you get to watch many of Jordan's games? James is extremely close in his ability to take over a game but the thing that separates them for me was the defense. Jordan would shut down or at least seriously inhibit the other teams best wing player and drop 30 a night on top of it. Jordan's defense was ridiculously good considering the amount of energy he spent on offense.

What is it that makes you choose Lebron? I'm not trying to argue, I just like a good discussion!

And again, the whole point of this is that I hope AD can reach this status and in the next 10 years we are having this same discussion, except its AD vs Jordan vs James.

Edited to add:

LeBron is definitively the better basketball player. MJ is definitively the better scorer.

This does not really make a lot of sense to me since scoring is a part of basketball. So do you feel that James' ability to distribute the ball like a savant make him better than MJ. Does that ability outweigh MJ's otherworldly scoring ability?

[P_B_&_G]

Highest PER in a season all time:

3. Michael Jordan* 31.71 1987-88
4. LeBron James 31.67 2008-09
5. Michael Jordan* 31.63 1990-91
6. Wilt Chamberlain* 31.63 1963-64
7. LeBron James 31.59 2012-13
8. Stephen Curry 31.46 2015-16
9. Michael Jordan* 31.18 1989-90
10. Michael Jordan* 31.14 1988-89
11. LeBron James 31.11 2009-10
12. Anthony Davis 30.81 2014-15
13. LeBron James 30.74 2011-12
14. David Robinson* 30.66 1993-94
15. Shaquille O'Neal* 30.65 1999-00

MJ has 4 of the top ten highest single season PER
James has 2 of the top ten

They each have 4 of the top 15 so probably a wash here.

We also have AD and Curry on this list once each. AD has some work to do.

[P_B_&_G]

Career PER:
Only 2 guys over 27 for their careers
MJ 27.91
LJ 27.68

(AD is 27.1 for his career but doesn't come up on the career list on basketball reference for some reason) That's impressive! He'll be only the third guy over 27 if he keeps it up or gets better.

[RobertM320]

Lets not forget, MJ played in an era where more players actually played defense, so his scoring is even more impressive.

[Pelicanidae]

Okay

1st team all defense awards:
Jordan has 9
Lebron has 5

DPOY
Jordan 1
Ja
NBA Finals
Jordan 6 for 6
James 3 for 8

Like I said I love Lebron and he is without a doubt the best player of this generation and about as close as anyone has been to Jordan, but he isn't the GOAT. I was so excited when Lebron came out of high school. It was amazing to watch him actually live up to the hype and honestly probably exceed it.

What is it that makes you feel that James is better? I'm honestly asking here because most things that most people look at to pick a guy point to Jordan. To be honest I haven't looked at advanced stats on them. Mainly just playoff results and ability to will a team to a win in crunch time. Lebron is certainly bigger and faster and a better passer but that doesn't make him better. Just a little different style player.

Did you get to watch many of Jordan's games? James is extremely close in his ability to take over a game but the thing that separates them for me was the defense. Jordan would shut down or at least seriously inhibit the other teams best wing player and drop 30 a night on top of it. Jordan's defense was ridiculously good considering the amount of energy he spent on offense.

What is it that makes you choose Lebron? I'm not trying to argue, I just like a good discussion!

And again, the whole point of this is that I hope AD can reach this status and in the next 10 years we are having this same discussion, except its AD vs Jordan vs James.

Edited to add:


This does not really make a lot of sense to me since scoring is a part of basketball. So do you feel that James' ability to distribute the ball like a savant make him better than MJ. Does that ability outweigh MJ's otherworldly scoring ability?

I have watched every Michael Jordan playoff game in his first three seasons, and in all of his championship years. So I feel like, to that extent, I'm qualified to make comment on them.

I don't acknowledge the defensive argument for a few reasons: firstly, MJ played in an era where the defensive rules were different (hand checking, most famously) so it was often easier to defend other ball handlers; you could literally slap them around to an extent. Lebron couldn't do that now, and it has nothing to do with his defensive ability and everything to do with how they call the game. That said, Lebron has played over 3000 more minutes than Jordan (including more playoff games between) in his 15 years, so I understand Lebron's recent defensive fall-off. He's just been doing this forever.

In their primes though? Lebron was every bit the defender Jordan was. Small example, Jordan never had a season with a defensive rating below 100. Lebron had two. And their career defensive ratings are the same. Watching Lebron play defense between 07-2014 was amazing, and there was a good argument for him being robbed of a DPOY himself in 09. I'd also say that Jordan's defense fell off considerable after his first retirement, and that he arguable didn't deserve the all defensive teams he made post 96 (there is debate in that though, you could argue otherwise).

I don't count the ring argument, because rings are a team accomplishment: Jordan was extremely lucky to be gifted Scottie Pippen (a man who was able to carry that Bulls team to 55 wins and out of the first round without Jordan, something Jordan couldn't do without Pippen by the way) for all of his championship years, along with some of what could be called the first 'superteams' of the time, with Rodman, for example.

Lebron, on the other hand, was dragging corpse-filled rosters like 2007 to the finals, and taking Golden State to 6 games in 2015 despite his second best player being Matthew Dellavadova.

I actually did a chart (like the one I did elsewhere on this forum to compare Anthony Davis to 5 other hall of fame power forwards), which compared Lebron, MJ, Kareem, Magic, Duncan, and Kobe. The reason I chose those players was because the first five are my personal all time top five, and I added Kobe because people love to claim he was better than he was. I used the same methodology of ranking those players as I did in the AD-power forward rankings.

So I compared their scoring averages, scoring totals, rebounding averages, rebounding totals, assist averages, assist totals, steals averages, steals totals, blocks averages, blocks totals, PER, win shares, WS/48, ORTG, DRTG, VORP, and then did a second set for all of those statistics again in the playoffs. I allocated the points in order of their ranking among the six players; so the highest career scoring average got 6 points, the second highest got 5, third got 4, etc, until I had ranked every one of them in order for each of those categories.

I left out all-nba, all-star, all-defensive teams, as well as rings, MVPs, DPOYs, and Finals MVPS; because none of those are purely individual achievements. The all-NBA, all-Defensive, and All-star teams are often just a popularity contest, whereas MVPs and rings are contingent on team success (harder if you have a worse team, which isn't the individual players fault), DPOYs are often reputation based (AD is probably going to lose this one, for example, despite being clearly the best option), and Finals MVPs obviously are contingent upon winning a ring, which is contingent on non-individual success.

When you do this, there are 204 points available total; Lebron finishes with 157, and MJ finishes with 137. They are 1 + 2, but Lebron is clearly higher.

MJ was a better scorer, and that's definitely part of the game, no question. But Lebron was arguably just as good on defense in his prime, and is a considerably better rebounder, light-years better passer.

I'd also make the (apparently contentious?) argument that MJ played against worse competition. I won't go in to that too much now though.

If you wanna see the spreadsheet I made allocating the points, for the sake of transparency, I'll put it up but I won't just throw it up now.

That's my argument though, in a nutshell.

[P_B_&_G]

Thanks for the awesome reply!

I don't think its fair to leave out all of the individual awards and look at stats alone, even advanced stats. Using point systems based on stats can be manipulated to reach a desired outcome, I'm not saying you did this, just that its easy to get results you expect when leaving out accomplishments that are widely recognized as meaningful. Add in all of the rings, MVPs, and such with points for them and see where these guys fall. I'm in the camp that stats don't always tell the whole story. Just look at Westbrook's stats.

I also can't agree that the competition was worse. It may have been more top heavy but certainly not worse overall. Just using the list of your 5 favorites, 3 of the 5 are from MJ's era. Plus all the other guys like Barkley, Drexler, Bird, the Pistons teams with Thomas, Rodman and Laimbeer. Magic's Lakers. Olajuwon's rockets. So many great teams and players. I think its pretty equal now but there was a long gap in dominate players for years. I also think that's why Kobe gets so much recognition, he bridged the gap between that era and now.

Doesn't the change in defensive rules make Jordan's scoring ability that much more impressive?

I guess what it really comes down too is what era you grew up watching. I think it really makes a huge difference.

Watching both guys play, night in night out, over their careers. Not that I have seen all of their games, but I have seen hundreds from both. Not just playoffs.

Honestly when it comes down to it, it's probably gut feeling.

(P.S. I never considered Rodman as a guy that would be part of a big 3, the dude could play defense and rebound but was inept offensively. Honestly, all he did was replace the D and boards that Horace Grant provided before he left. Grant was probably more of a big 3 than Rodman.)

[Pelicanidae]

Thanks for the awesome reply!

I don't think its fair to leave out all of the individual awards and look at stats alone, even advanced stats. Using point systems based on stats can be manipulated to reach a desired outcome, I'm not saying you did this, just that its easy to get results you expect when leaving out accomplishments that are widely recognized as meaningful. Add in all of the rings, MVPs, and such with points for them and see where these guys fall. I'm in the camp that stats don't always tell the whole story. Just look at Westbrook's stats.

I also can't agree that the competition was worse. It may have been more top heavy but certainly not worse overall. Just using the list of your 5 favorites, 3 of the 5 are from MJ's era. Plus all the other guys like Barkley, Drexler, Bird, the Pistons teams with Thomas, Rodman and Laimbeer. Magic's Lakers. Olajuwon's rockets. So many great teams and players. I think its pretty equal now but there was a long gap in dominate players for years. I also think that's why Kobe gets so much recognition, he bridged the gap between that era and now.

Doesn't the change in defensive rules make Jordan's scoring ability that much more impressive?

I guess what it really comes down too is what era you grew up watching. I think it really makes a huge difference.

Watching both guys play, night in night out, over their careers. Not that I have seen all of their games, but I have seen hundreds from both. Not just playoffs.

Honestly when it comes down to it, it's probably gut feeling.

(P.S. I never considered Rodman as a guy that would be part of a big 3, the dude could play defense and rebound but was inept offensively. Honestly, all he did was replace the D and boards that Horace Grant provided before he left. Grant was probably more of a big 3 than Rodman.)

I do see what you mean, and I'm not really in disagreement about gut feeling. To be honest, they're both top three players of all time and there isn't really an argument about if they're both all time greats. Whether you have MJ first or Lebron first, there's arguments to be made either way.

I would disagree about Westbrook's stats though: his advanced stats actually do show how mediocre he is. His PER is routinely unimpressive in comparison to the stats he puts up, his true shooting barely ever peaks above league average, his win shares/48 are pretty poor for a 'superstar', and his usage rate is always astronomical. For a guy that averaged 45/15/15 last year per 100 possessions, his 112 ORTG was pretty mediocre, good but not great, which implies that while he was personally racking up those stats it didn't actually do much for the team's overall offense. Which is accurate.

I'd say no, the change in rules doesn't make Jordan's scoring ability more impressive because defenses were less intelligent back then. While there was hand-checking and other similar allowances in roughness, defenses during the 80s and 90s generally stuck to man-on-man defense. Not always, of course, but that was the standard. Today, defenses have waves of traps, doubles, switches, zone integration, etc. I'd love to see a 1989 Jordan who got stymied by the Pistons go up against a team like the 07 Spurs. I honestly feel like he'd be lost.

Kareem is more 70s for me, so I don't really consider him MJs era, although I understand why you might. Watching game tape from back then always astonishes me, because although it's a bit of an exaggeration to pull the whole ''MJ played against garbage disposal technicians and librarians'' thing, he did play against a lot of guys who would have absolutely no place in today's league. Today's players are, on average, stronger, faster, more athletic, and more skilled; this makes sense when you consider advances in the training methods, medical technology, coaching methods, etc. But it does end up making older players look a little worse than they did in their day.

Watching games from the 80s is like watching modern basketball drills, or G League games. Almost nobody is as fast, as dynamic, or as skilled as they are today. There are some exceptions, and you named some of them, but if you take (for example) the 86 Celtics and look at their roster. They won the ring getting 30 minutes per game out of Danny Ainge. They played Jerry Sichting 20 minutes a night.

Neither of those guys would see the floor for more than 10 minutes a game on 90% of today's teams.

[P_B_&_G]

I do see what you mean, and I'm not really in disagreement about gut feeling. To be honest, they're both top three players of all time and there isn't really an argument about if they're both all time greats. Whether you have MJ first or Lebron first, there's arguments to be made either way.

I would disagree about Westbrook's stats though: his advanced stats actually do show how mediocre he is. His PER is routinely unimpressive in comparison to the stats he puts up, his true shooting barely ever peaks above league average, his win shares/48 are pretty poor for a 'superstar', and his usage rate is always astronomical. For a guy that averaged 45/15/15 last year per 100 possessions, his 112 ORTG was pretty mediocre, good but not great, which implies that while he was personally racking up those stats it didn't actually do much for the team's overall offense. Which is accurate.

I'd say no, the change in rules doesn't make Jordan's scoring ability more impressive because defenses were less intelligent back then. While there was hand-checking and other similar allowances in roughness, defenses during the 80s and 90s generally stuck to man-on-man defense. Not always, of course, but that was the standard. Today, defenses have waves of traps, doubles, switches, zone integration, etc. I'd love to see a 1989 Jordan who got stymied by the Pistons go up against a team like the 07 Spurs. I honestly feel like he'd be lost.

Kareem is more 70s for me, so I don't really consider him MJs era, although I understand why you might. Watching game tape from back then always astonishes me, because although it's a bit of an exaggeration to pull the whole ''MJ played against garbage disposal technicians and librarians'' thing, he did play against a lot of guys who would have absolutely no place in today's league. Today's players are, on average, stronger, faster, more athletic, and more skilled; this makes sense when you consider advances in the training methods, medical technology, coaching methods, etc. But it does end up making older players look a little worse than they did in their day.

Watching games from the 80s is like watching modern basketball drills, or G League games. Almost nobody is as fast, as dynamic, or as skilled as they are today. There are some exceptions, and you named some of them, but if you take (for example) the 86 Celtics and look at their roster. They won the ring getting 30 minutes per game out of Danny Ainge. They played Jerry Sichting 20 minutes a night.

Neither of those guys would see the floor for more than 10 minutes a game on 90% of today's teams.

I think its important to look at context as well. What I mean by that is you can really only judge them based on the era that they played in. I think Jordan would have been able to figure out modern defenses. I don't think a lot of today's players would have been able to deal with the physicality of the league back then. As for the physical progression of the athletes, that happens in every sport. So, you kind of have to judge them against their peers of the time. In that regard, both of these guys are unquestionably the best of their eras.

So, here's to AD becoming the GOAT and surpassing both of them!

[Pelicanidae]

I think its important to look at context as well. What I mean by that is you can really only judge them based on the era that they played in. I think Jordan would have been able to figure out modern defenses. I don't think a lot of today's players would have been able to deal with the physicality of the league back then. As for the physical progression of the athletes, that happens in every sport. So, you kind of have to judge them against their peers of the time. In that regard, both of these guys are unquestionably the best of their eras.

So, here's to AD becoming the GOAT and surpassing both of them!

To AD!

[luckyman]

Lebron is not more athletic than MJ. He's just bigger. MJ had explosion you just don't see very often with an insane vertical to go with it. Better on ball defender than Lebron as well. MJ was the better basketball player. Period. Especially in an era where defenders could put their hands on you.

[Silver Nail]

I am not joining the debate, because all arguments can never be satisfied due to different times, rules, etc. However, been around a long time, in fact Mr. B and I went to the same high school and it's been gone for a half century now. I've seen all the greats like Gail Goodrich, Jerry West and all the others mentioned herein when they were in their prime. Awards, championships, etc. should NOT be the deciding FACTOR who a person believes is the GOAT. To me, it has always been how in awe I was of their ability and showmanship when on the court. And the only player that did that day in and day out, win or lose, was PISTOL PETE MARAVICH.

[Pelicanidae]

Lebron is not more athletic than MJ. He's just bigger. MJ had explosion you just don't see very often with an insane vertical to go with it. Better on ball defender than Lebron as well. MJ was the better basketball player. Period. Especially in an era where defenders could put their hands on you.

Agree to disagree.

[RobertM320]

I am not joining the debate, because all arguments can never be satisfied due to different times, rules, etc. However, been around a long time, in fact Mr. B and I went to the same high school and it's been gone for a half century now. I've seen all the greats like Gail Goodrich, Jerry West and all the others mentioned herein when they were in their prime. Awards, championships, etc. should NOT be the deciding FACTOR who a person believes is the GOAT. To me, it has always been how in awe I was of their ability and showmanship when on the court. And the only player that did that day in and day out, win or lose, was PISTOL PETE MARAVICH.

Amen. If Pete were playing in today's league, no one would know who Steph Curry was.

[Tinman]

I am not joining the debate, because all arguments can never be satisfied due to different times, rules, etc. However, been around a long time, in fact Mr. B and I went to the same high school and it's been gone for a half century now. I've seen all the greats like Gail Goodrich, Jerry West and all the others mentioned herein when they were in their prime. Awards, championships, etc. should NOT be the deciding FACTOR who a person believes is the GOAT. To me, it has always been how in awe I was of their ability and showmanship when on the court. And the only player that did that day in and day out, win or lose, was PISTOL PETE MARAVICH.

Technically Mr. B. & your school & my school is still around. At least I like to think that way. Anyway- I was fortunate enough to see Maravich at LSU & Municipal Auditorium and Loyola Field House & used to pay $1 to sit in the terrace of the DOME to watch him play. Was there when Lakers & Jabbar came to town & at that time we broke the record for a pro BBGame with over 26,000 fans. There will never be a ball handler & showman like Maravich. Not being hyperbolic at all, but the best handles in the game RIGHT NOW (Curry,Irving,Harden,et al) DONT come close to Maravich's ball handling ability. The best ever.

[Silver Nail]

Technically Mr. B. & your school & my school is still around. At least I like to think that way. Anyway- I was fortunate enough to see Maravich at LSU & Municipal Auditorium and Loyola Field House & used to pay $1 to sit in the terrace of the DOME to watch him play. Was there when Lakers & Jabbar came to town & at that time we broke the record for a pro BBGame with over 26,000 fans. There will never be a ball handler & showman like Maravich. Not being hyperbolic at all, but the best handles in the game RIGHT NOW (Curry,Irving,Harden,et al) DONT come close to Maravich's ball handling ability. The best ever.

I was there up in the nosebleed section that night too.

[wnelson]

We don't need to get into the discussion over whether MJ is better than LeBron. He's not. LeBron is definitively the better basketball player. MJ is definitively the better scorer.

I remember watching that 63 point game online, that was the one where he was getting swept in the first round for the second straight year I think.

Mj's all defensive team streak determines that is a lie

[Tinman]

I was there up in the nosebleed section that night too.

Hell, when the nets were loose, you couldn't tell if the ball went in the goal ! But, I didn't care. $1. !!!!!!! I sat next to Maravich at the theater. He was by himself . It was Blazing Saddles. & I have his autograph.

[Pelicanidae]

Mj's all defensive team streak determines that is a lie

Already addressed my views on MJ/Lebron defense.

[Silver Nail]

Hell, when the nets were loose, you couldn't tell if the ball went in the goal ! But, I didn't care. $1. !!!!!!! I sat next to Maravich at the theater. He was by himself . It was Blazing Saddles. & I have his autograph.

NICE!! Would love to see this group have a game there. Maybe next year, since we are gonna be defending champs?

[luckyman]

Technically Mr. B. & your school & my school is still around. At least I like to think that way. Anyway- I was fortunate enough to see Maravich at LSU & Municipal Auditorium and Loyola Field House & used to pay $1 to sit in the terrace of the DOME to watch him play. Was there when Lakers & Jabbar came to town & at that time we broke the record for a pro BBGame with over 26,000 fans. There will never be a ball handler & showman like Maravich. Not being hyperbolic at all, but the best handles in the game RIGHT NOW (Curry,Irving,Harden,et al) DONT come close to Maravich's ball handling ability. The best ever.

You gotta be kidding me. The GOAT of handles is God Shammgod. And no disrespect to Pete, but the caliber of athlete back then wasn't close to what it is now.

[Tinman]

You gotta be kidding me. The GOAT of handles is God Shammgod. And no disrespect to Pete, but the caliber of athlete back then wasn't close to what it is now.

Lol. I hope you're kidding. if Not, then you can never be taken seriously again. The guy was a flash in the pan Eurasia journeyman. Hahahahahah. He played, what, maybe 3 yrs in the NBA, if that. You, as I said, if you are Not pulling legs, you have Never seen Maravich play . When I say play, I don't mean the 10 yrs of NBA games. I mean the clinics he put on in college. Sham wow was a poser. Obviously wasn't worth salt. God as my witness- I hope you're joking. Maravich, at that time was the only Caucasian ever to be asked to join the Harlem Globetrotters.