Time to Give Gentry His Due

[Pelicanidae]

As literally as you can say it, the grass is greener in San Antonio even when they are missing their best player. Why? The players they do have execute. Say what you want about Ginobilli, but in his heyday, in big games, he's not going to fumble the ball out of bounds and neither will Parker or any other member of that squad.

Why? Well it can't possibly have anything to do with the coaching over there could it? Of course not. San Antonio just somehow executes without being a turnover machine team. Somehow.

What are you talking about? Spurs fans regularly complain about Ginobili costing them at least one championship by playing awfully in the 2013 finals (including 8 turnovers in game six!) and Parker for having absolutely no court vision.

Aside from that, the grass is greener in San Antonio right now. A few weeks ago, when we were winning 10 straight and they were in severe danger of falling out of the playoffs completely, the grass was much greener here. What changed? The coaches are the same on both teams, the available players are largely the same, the training staff are the same. It's almost like the real difference is how the players are executing on court.

[Mythrol]

What are you talking about? Spurs fans regularly complain about Ginobili costing them at least one championship by playing awfully in the 2013 finals (including 8 turnovers in game six!) and Parker for having absolutely no court vision.

Aside from that, the grass is greener in San Antonio right now. A few weeks ago, when we were winning 10 straight and they were in severe danger of falling out of the playoffs completely, the grass was much greener here. What changed? The coaches are the same on both teams, the available players are largely the same, the training staff are the same. It's almost like the real difference is how the players are executing on court.

This.

Plus, Pops is probably the greatest NBA coach of all time. You can literally compare every other coach to him currently in the league and they'd be founding lacking.
Outside of maybe Kerr.

If the argument is, "Well Gentry ain't no Pops therefore he's bad" well, let's just say, that's some crazy hot take level of "No joke he's no Pops and geez that's a worthless take."

People want to blame Gentry for players dribbling the ball off of their own bodies but then want to turn around and give him no credit during the 10 game win streak or the 4 wins out of 5 in those 5 games in 6 nights.

[msw2024]

Honestly....If people watch the games..The only thing to blame right now is the injury to AD's ankle on why we are losing right now and a tougher schedule. Our team has fallen off a little exactly after AD got hurt...AD is not 100% right now. AD was spectacular during that 10 game win streak...He has not been the same after the his ankle injury. We have no one else on the team that can completely dominate a game consistently that is currently healthy. I just want us to make the playoffs even if we "LIMP" into them. Making the playoffs after losing and Allstar and Arguably best center in the game right now in the EXTREMELY competitive west is a task itself.

[luckyman]

What are you talking about? Spurs fans regularly complain about Ginobili costing them at least one championship by playing awfully in the 2013 finals (including 8 turnovers in game six!) and Parker for having absolutely no court vision.

Aside from that, the grass is greener in San Antonio right now. A few weeks ago, when we were winning 10 straight and they were in severe danger of falling out of the playoffs completely, the grass was much greener here. What changed? The coaches are the same on both teams, the available players are largely the same, the training staff are the same. It's almost like the real difference is how the players are executing on court.

It's as if I'm talking to people that have never played serious organized sports before. "You are what you eat", and "you play how you practice" are two mantras decades old you hear from any coach on any level.

It's also obvious when a team has problems with useless turnovers and failures executing out of timeouts, the first place you look is the coach and next you wonder what the hell are they practicing? Nobody is saying Gentry has them doing this on purpose, but obviously the message and the method aren't getting through. Consistency is also highly important.

This is just obvious and common. I have literally almost never heard anyone just blame the players for issues like that. ESPECIALLY this late in the season where well coached teams (Pops coached teams as a barometer, not an idiotic absolute), start playing like well coached machines.

Am I in the twilight zone or just the wierd part of the Internet again?

[luckyman]

And you keep bringing up AD dribbling the ball off his foot. I'm pretty sure he didn't do that 21 damn times. 20 other times it was something else. It was just plain awful from a team not focused at all in a big game with little margin for error.

That's COACHING. Period.

[Pelicanidae]

It's as if I'm talking to people that have never played serious organized sports before. "You are what you eat", and "you play how you practice" are two mantras decades old you hear from any coach on any level.

It's also obvious when a team has problems with useless turnovers and failures executing out of timeouts, the first place you look is the coach and next you wonder what the hell are they practicing? Nobody is saying Gentry has them doing this on purpose, but obviously the message and the method aren't getting through. Consistency is also highly important.

This is just obvious and common. I have literally almost never heard anyone just blame the players for issues like that. ESPECIALLY this late in the season where well coached teams (Pops coached teams as a barometer, not an idiotic absolute), start playing like well coached machines.

Am I in the twilight zone or just the wierd part of the Internet again?

No, you're in the really strange part where you refuse to listen.

Nobody has said that the players alone are responsible for every bad habit that the team is in. I've already acknowledged and agreed that habits are obviously established through practice. Nobody is questioning that. Literally no-one has said to you that there is zero blame to be put on Gentry.

The argument is that while Gentry does have an element of responsibility, at the end of the day the actual execution of plays rests upon the players. When we were winning, we weren't turning it over. That was under the same coach, the same assistant coaches, the same training staff, the same system, and the same plays that we are running now. The difference is in the decisions that are being made on court, because literally every single off court member of personnel is still there.

It may well be the case that the system we play is sub-optimal for our on court personnel; I wouldn't disagree that this is very probably the case. It may be that our coach is not a great coach; I'd agree with that totally. It may be that the way our team is coached and instructed during practice is not the best possible way to give good habits and low turnovers. All of this is true.

None of that changes the fact that Gentry has nothing, literally nothing to do with when Jrue throws a pass so high that Manute Bol would struggle to reach it, or when Anthony Davis dribbles the ball off his own knee. Those instances are the result of players failing to execute. It might be that the play they're being told to execute is one which is entirely beyond them, in which case yes, it's Gentry's fault and he should be running different plays. But the fact that they are messing up things we have repeatedly seen them do before successfully is on them.

Again, comparing anyone to the Spurs is a terrible comparison because Pop is one of the best coaches of all time, and has had much the same in the way of staff and assistants for years. He's had two of his core players on his team for over a decade, and has had multiple years with several of the others.

Coming into this season we had:
Rondo - New
Clark - New
Boogie - Essentially New

And through the course of this season, we've added:
Okafor
Mirotic
Liggins
Solo returning from injury.

That's literally half our team. Half of our team has either been a completely new addition, or an addition that came halfway through the season.

Finch is also new, and he's supposed to be our offensive co-ordinator.

And guess what? Despite all of that stuff which is completely in the Spurs favour, and completely against us, we're still only 2 games behind the Spurs. So I'm willing to assume that the recent rash of bad play isn't a complete burial of the coach, but probably more of a reflection of the growing pressure towards the end of the season, the injury that our star player is going through, the struggle of re-incorporating Hill, two games without Rondo, and Mirotic still not finding his shot with us consistently. It just so happens that those things are issues with the players, not the coach.

You've got me of all people defending Gentry. I've called for him to be fired about thirty times this season, and even I think that you blaming our turnovers and stuff on him is a little out there.

[DaFranchise80]

No, you're in the really strange part where you refuse to listen.

Nobody has said that the players alone are responsible for every bad habit that the team is in. I've already acknowledged and agreed that habits are obviously established through practice. Nobody is questioning that. Literally no-one has said to you that there is zero blame to be put on Gentry.

The argument is that while Gentry does have an element of responsibility, at the end of the day the actual execution of plays rests upon the players. When we were winning, we weren't turning it over. That was under the same coach, the same assistant coaches, the same training staff, the same system, and the same plays that we are running now. The difference is in the decisions that are being made on court, because literally every single off court member of personnel is still there.

It may well be the case that the system we play is sub-optimal for our on court personnel; I wouldn't disagree that this is very probably the case. It may be that our coach is not a great coach; I'd agree with that totally. It may be that the way our team is coached and instructed during practice is not the best possible way to give good habits and low turnovers. All of this is true.

None of that changes the fact that Gentry has nothing, literally nothing to do with when Jrue throws a pass so high that Manute Bol would struggle to reach it, or when Anthony Davis dribbles the ball off his own knee. Those instances are the result of players failing to execute. It might be that the play they're being told to execute is one which is entirely beyond them, in which case yes, it's Gentry's fault and he should be running different plays. But the fact that they are messing up things we have repeatedly seen them do before successfully is on them.

Again, comparing anyone to the Spurs is a terrible comparison because Pop is one of the best coaches of all time, and has had much the same in the way of staff and assistants for years. He's had two of his core players on his team for over a decade, and has had multiple years with several of the others.

Coming into this season we had:
Rondo - New
Clark - New
Boogie - Essentially New

And through the course of this season, we've added:
Okafor
Mirotic
Liggins
Solo returning from injury.

That's literally half our team. Half of our team has either been a completely new addition, or an addition that came halfway through the season.

Finch is also new, and he's supposed to be our offensive co-ordinator.

And guess what? Despite all of that stuff which is completely in the Spurs favour, and completely against us, we're still only 2 games behind the Spurs. So I'm willing to assume that the recent rash of bad play isn't a complete burial of the coach, but probably more of a reflection of the growing pressure towards the end of the season, the injury that our star player is going through, the struggle of re-incorporating Hill, two games without Rondo, and Mirotic still not finding his shot with us consistently. It just so happens that those things are issues with the players, not the coach.

You've got me of all people defending Gentry. I've called for him to be fired about thirty times this season, and even I think that you blaming our turnovers and stuff on him is a little out there.

I think some folks are in denial that the Pels have a G-League roster outside of Jrue, Boogie, and AD. This was apparent against the likes of Houston, Cleveland, etc. I'm not the biggest Gentry fan, but he can only do so much with 3rd tier talent. Still, he could put these guys in better positions to succeed, but at the end of the day, the players have to execute the plays that are being called. Making the playoffs after losing Boogie is a win in my book, especially in the west.

[Pelicanidae]

I think some folks are in denial that the Pels have a G-League roster outside of Jrue, Boogie, and AD. This was apparent against the likes of Houston, Cleveland, etc. I'm not the biggest Gentry fan, but he can only do so much with 3rd tier talent. Still, he could put these guys in better positions to succeed, but at the end of the day, the players have to execute the plays that are being called. Making the playoffs after losing Boogie is a win in my book, especially in the west.

For the most part, I agree. Like I said, I'm not the biggest fan of Gentry at all. That said, there's a realistic ceiling on what he can do given the circumstances, and I think he's done reasonably well. Yes, the off court stuff could be done better and I wouldn't question that, but when the ball is in Jrue's hands, what Jrue does with it is up to Jrue. Insert any other player's name for the same argument in other circumstances.

[Taker597]

My only complaint is that it'll take about 3-4 Ls before he changes. Granted, outsude winning streak of 4, 6, and 10. We been pretty average. Consistenty is just bleh too... Any other complaints is basically moot because I use hindsight like game time adjustment or gambling on rotation that don't work. We really sinks or swims if we can defend the perimeter/ make 3s as long we dominate the paint. Taking shots super early is really souring me, because as streaky as we are. We don't need to push extra possessions to blow a lead.

Other than that... I honestly doubt we can find a better staff and really have to depend on the talent to develop and take over.

[pelicanchamp]

Coaching staff really is responsible for most of our failures. They overplayed cousins and AD earlier this season and I’m convinced they are responsible for cousins injury.

Research how overused and overexertion and fatigue usually occur before Achilles’ tendon tears. Cousins played like 52 minutes the previous game. They made him very vulnerable to this injury. We should have gotten a player such as Niko or used Diallo to give cousins a break. Coaching decisions are part of this team being a fringe playoff team.


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[luckyman]

None of that changes the fact that Gentry has nothing, literally nothing to do with when Jrue throws a pass so high that Manute Bol would struggle to reach it, or when Anthony Davis dribbles the ball off his own knee. Those instances are the result of players failing to execute. It might be that the play they're being told to execute is one which is entirely beyond them, in which case yes, it's Gentry's fault and he should be running different plays. But the fact that they are messing up things we have repeatedly seen them do before successfully is on them.

The above lets me know I am no doubt in the weird part of the internet. The head coach's hands are in everything. Yes, he "literally" has something to do with plays like that. It's as if you don't understand what practice and repetition are for. You can't cherry pick what is just a player's problem and what is the coach's when the issue is chronic. We've been talking about this ALL YEAR LONG.

Coaches at this level, especially today, coach up even the most minute details of hand placement and how to pass a ball without throwing into the stands. You wanna know what my team used to do at practice to cut down on stupidity like that? Whip the ball around the perimeter with speed and accuracy over and over. Dont let it float in the air. Don't throw it at someone's knees or above their heads. PRACTICE passing the ball over and over.

But no. Your team comes out and handles the ball like it's October preseason, turn it over 21 times at home, in April, in a big must win game. Well, that's just bad players? I could buy that argument in November. Now? It's on Gentry.

Weird concept I know.

[pelicanchamp]

The above lets me know I am no doubt in the weird part of the internet. The head coach's hands are in everything. Yes, he "literally" has something to do with plays like that. It's as if you don't understand what practice and repetition are for. You can't cherry pick what is just a player's problem and what is the coach's when the issue is chronic. We've been talking about this ALL YEAR LONG.

Coaches at this level, especially today, coach up even the most minute details of hand placement and how to pass a ball without throwing into the stands. You wanna know what my team used to do at practice to cut down on stupidity like that? Whip the ball around the perimeter with speed and accuracy over and over. Dont let it float in the air. Don't throw it at someone's knees or above their heads. PRACTICE passing the ball over and over.

But no. Your team comes out and handles the ball like it's October preseason, turn it over 21 times at home, in April, in a big must win game. Well, that's just bad players? I could buy that argument in November. Now? It's on Gentry.

Weird concept I know.

Exactly.


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[Mythrol]

I encourage everyone to go read this Twitter conversation by Pelicans coach McMillan.

https://twitter.com/JamelleMac/statu...229236736?s=19

He did a mini Q & A session with Pels fans and addressed a lot of issues fans raised. At the top of those issues was how the coach staff is constantly telling the players to stop trying to make difficult passes and go back to more off ball movement and easy passes.

Says the coaching staff is doing everything the can to keep the players focused and reduce the turnovers. It's on the players to execute better.

Also addresses fans putting the blame on coaches for everything and said, everyone thinks they have all the answers, the coach staff is trying their hardest and is going off of all the data that they have to make the team successful.

[P_B_&_G]

I agree with lucky and champ. Especially on the turnover issue. At this point in the season it's all on coaching. That should no longer be a problem at this point.

[P_B_&_G]

I encourage everyone to go read this Twitter conversation by Pelicans coach McMillan.

https://twitter.com/JamelleMac/statu...229236736?s=19

He did a mini Q & A session with Pels fans and addressed a lot of issues fans raised. At the top of those issues was how the coach staff is constantly telling the players to stop trying to make difficult passes and go back to more off ball movement and easy passes.

Says the coaching staff is doing everything the can to keep the players focused and reduce the turnovers. It's on the players to execute better.

Also addresses fans putting the blame on coaches for everything and said, everyone thinks they have all the answers, the coach staff is trying their hardest and is going off of all the data that they have to make the team successful.

That's exactly what he should say. Plus it's also exactly why the coaches are responsible. Apparently, they are not reaching the players consistently. That's coaching.

[Mythrol]

That's exactly what he should say. Plus it's also exactly why the coaches are responsible. Apparently, they are not reaching the players consistently. That's coaching.

If this was AAU then you'd have a point, these are guys paid millions of dollars to execute. If they fail, short of constantly executing the coaching staff can only do so much. I will leave it at, I strongly disagree that the coaches are at fault for turnovers.

[PELICANSFAN]

If this was AAU then you'd have a point, these are guys paid millions of dollars to execute. If they fail, short of constantly executing the coaching staff can only do so much. I will leave it at, I strongly disagree that the coaches are at fault for turnovers.

I think there is joint blame to go around. I think it is certainly on the players and some on the coaches as well. If we all said that it is on guys who make millions to execute, it points to the question of why do we have coaches?

[Mythrol]

I think there is joint blame to go around. I think it is certainly on the players and some on the coaches as well. If we all said that it is on guys who make millions to execute, it points to the question of why do we have coaches?

I would say the coaches are responsible for making the players aware of why the turnovers are happening, what the players specifically are doing that is leading to the turnovers, and what they can do to correct it.

If I thought the coaches weren't doing that or if a Pels coach hadn't specifically said that is exactly what they were doing then I would listen to people trying to blame the coaches for turnovers.

However after that point, the actual execution is on the players. Gentry isn't the one throwing the ball. To blame him for bad lobs, players dribbling off themselves, or players trying to force a pass is crazy.

I side 100% with Coach McMillan on this issue.

[stormcenter]

Someone has to answer for a team's failures at the end of each season and it's NOT OR EVER will be the players. It is always the head coach
and his assistances. I see no way upper management can sell Gentry to the already vulnerable fan base for another season if they fail to
make the playoffs. This team lost a lot of games to subpar teams at home when Davis and Cousins were both healthy. That's on coaching.

[Mythrol]

Someone has to answer for a team's failures at the end of each season and it's NOT OR EVER will be the players.

See this is the problem with the casual fan. Nothing is ever the player's fault.

If only we had a coach like that time we tied the franchise record for most consecutive wins! Argh!!

[stormcenter]

But coaching is not about tying winning streak records, it's about the whole body of work for the season. We wouldn't have needed to win 10 straight had this team
been prepared to win the games they had no business losing throughout the season hence we are in the situation we are in how. That is barely hanging on
to the 8th seed by the skin of our teeth. The players will never be held accountable for anything, remember it's a players league and not a coach's.

See this is the problem with the casual fan. Nothing is ever the player's fault.

If only we had a coach like that time we tied the franchise record for most consecutive wins! Argh!!

[luckyman]

Players are held accountable for one-off player problems. Like a single player turning the ball over 10 times while the rest of the team turns it over 5 times. Or a single player forcing a bad shot versus multiple players doing the same thing.

The turnover issue has been a TEAM problem all year. It wasn't just Demarcus, or just Rondo, or just AD, or just Jrue. They've all taken turns. The whole team takes bad shots at the worst times not just Mirotic.

This is not rocket science. There are certain problems you can link directly to coaching. Period.

[Mythrol]

But coaching is not about tying winning streak records, it's about the whole body of work for the season. We wouldn't have needed to win 10 straight had this team
been prepared to win the games they had no business losing throughout the season hence we are in the situation we are in how. That is barely hanging on
to the 8th seed by the skin of our teeth. The players will never be held accountable for anything, remember it's a players league and not a coach's.

We've also lost the most games due to injury in the entire NBA this year. Gentry has had to adjust to an almost entirely different lineup than they were expecting to start this season. Heck, Our starting center wasn't on the roster to begin 2018, halfway through the season.

Teams lose games they "shouldn't" all the time. Every team does. This is not a unique problem of the Pels. If that is the criteria for raring the coaching staff then every NBA coach in the entire NBA should be fired.

1 injury to the Wolves and they are fighting for a playoff spot now too. We have sustained multiple times the amount of injuries and are in a very similar situation.

The Spurs with their God coach Pops, are all of 1.5 games ahead of us in the standings with only 5 games left to play yet have sustained far less injuries than us.

Should Pop be fired because of almost being out of the playoffs? What about Thibs?

[Mythrol]

Players are held accountable for one-off player problems. Like a single player turning the ball over 10 times while the rest of the team turns it over 5 times. Or a single player forcing a bad shot versus multiple players doing the same thing.

The turnover issue has been a TEAM problem all year. It wasn't just Demarcus, or just Rondo, or just AD, or just Jrue. They've all taken turns. The whole team takes bad shots at the worst times not just Mirotic.

This is not rocket science. There are certain problems you can link directly to coaching. Period.

I feel like we are talking past each other.

Our system inherently causes more turnovers. That is why the Warriors average more turnovers than we do per game. They're both Gentry's system.

Some amount of turnovers is simply expected. Whether you agree with his system or not is a different topic. However over the course of the 4 game losing streak the players have not been staying in the confines of the system Gentry runs and have had an uptick in their turnovers.

I think this is the root of where we have a difference of agreement. The players being tight at the end of the season due to how close the race is, or being fatigued because of the end of the season, or trying to force passes they shouldn't isn't on the coaching staff. Not if the staff is doing everything in their power to show the players and correct the recent uptick in turnovers.

Some turnovers are expected. What isn't is for the players to operate outside of the system or continue to force bad passes. That is where the fault lies on them.

[23speedkillz]

I have to put the blame on both players and coaches. True it's on the players to execute and take care of the ball. But system and putting the players in the best situation for the talent you have is on the coaches. The warriors were a middle of the pack playoff team with Mark Jackson but that organization refused to settle for mediocrity and hired a guy to take them over the top with the same players but better system to fit the talent they had.