Pelicans @ Nuggets

[Bricklayer]

It's a stupid system when your center is playing point center.

It is, or I think it is, too much.

But again, as I detailed in another thread, the offense has been absolutely torrid for the last month with that system, with all the turnovers. So I think they like it and are willing to absorb the turnovers as the cost of doing business.

Does not change my opinion though that much more than A.D. it's Boogie who's been asked to stretch his game in ways nearly unique in the history of centers. Shoot threes, hit cutters with 25 foot passes, long drives from the 3pt line giving the whole opposing teams time to swipe at a center's handle. All of these things are things he can do, and part of the skill package that makes him unique. But normally he has been able to pick and choose when to use them. To only drive when he had a favorable center matchup, to occasionally start shooting threes when a big center started dropping off, etc. But now it's the system, and he's having to do all of it at a high high volume all the time, and it's either great or terrible with little in between.

The thing is "Mason Ginsberg" is a little confused too. Because of the extreme usage, Cousins' TOV% is not actually that extreme. it's high, the highest of his career, but before this game his TOV% was 18.4%, which was 68th in the league. DeAndre Jordan is 67th in the league at 18.5. Mason Plumlee is 51st at 19.7%. Dwight Howard is 49th at 19.9%. Drummond is 41st at 20.5%.

Here is a list with some notables.

NBA TOV% "Leaders"
10) Frazier 26.6%
18) Rondo 24.5%
21) Green 23.6%
34) Nelson 22.0%
37) Rubio 21.6%
41) Drummond 20.5%
49) Howard 19.9%
51) Plumlee 19.7%
57) Simmons 19.3%
58) Smart 19.2%
59) Ball 19.1%
67) Jordan 18.5%
68) Cousins 18.4%

Cousins turnovers are headslappingly high, but that's inevitable if you use a center this much in these kinds of ways. Compared to his usage he's high, but nowhere near top of the league.

The other thing is that Cousins averages a full 1.0 offensive fouls a game, which impacts both his foul stats, and the turnover averages. Still high without that, but it makes a big difference if you are comparing him to a little guard who may never get that turnover, or the fall down and get back up 3 second turnover Boogie got tonight.

[DefensiveMind]

The alternative is to move on from him before committing long-term. Of course, that won't happen. But let's not pretend like that option doesn't exist.

I was riduculed for suggesting that over 10 games ago. The wriyeing is on the wall. And I stand by that. He's the Dave Bing of our generation (on the court), and ********ty person on the court to boot. It's time.

[PelsFan2313]

I was riduculed for suggesting that over 10 games ago. The wriyeing is on the wall. And I stand by that. He's the Dave Bing of our generation (on the court), and ********ty person on the court to boot. It's time.

I'm right there with you. But it's maddening to already know that we won't have the balls to move him.

[DaFranchise80]

It's a stupid system when your center is playing point center.

This 1000 times. It's an accident waiting to happen. But I guess Gentry is too afraid to change the play calling just to keep Cousins happy.

[Bricklayer]

You need to stop rationalizing and watch the game. DeMarcus Cousins did not and does not play winning basketball. This a team is scared to lose him and they play through him when they don't need to. That Nuggets team with OUT a healthy Jokic and Milsap was as beatable as any team I've seen suit up this year. Your stats, with all due respect, mean nothing. I understand that there has been a wave of negativity on this board the past few months, and you've dedicated yourself to dying on that hill, but enough is enough. Message board fans are not supposed to care more than the guys on the floor. That's a product of our culture and until it changes we are ALL spinning our wheels.

No, message board fans are supposed to be emo and ridiculous as they sit impotent to do anything about the sources of their frustration. And at that, at least, I have to congratulate you guys.

Stats, you see, are facts. Feelings, panic, frustration, those are the logic killers.

As I've mentioned before the Pels are committed to running a ridiculously uptempo high risk high reward cutting, passing, outside in swarm of a system. The cost of that system is high turnovers. And the player bearing much of that cost is the one being used most unconventionally for his position. But the benefits of the system are an offense that scores 110+ points every single night, and that wins one for every one you lose. In fact if you played decent defense it would win you a lot more than that.

[Bricklayer]

This 1000 times. It's an accident waiting to happen. But I guess Gentry is too afraid to change the play calling just to keep Cousins happy.

You think this is Cousins' system? Never before has he been used like this. Cousins is the guy SACRIFICING in this system. He's the guy out of position and out of his comfort zone. The system he was in last year under Joerger, who knows a thing about coaching bigs, was much more efficient for Cousins (4.8ast to 3.8TO), but without talent around him he was just constantly double teamed.

And again -- you guys are seeing with the wrong eyes here. Turnovers catch the eye, but the constant nightly barrage piling up points on the scoreboard fades into the background. The same sets and usage that results in the TOs on 15-20 plays a night, also results in the 110-115 points scored every night.

Not my thing. I'm a 90s basketball guy and would have a team like this in a defensive brawling slugfest every night. In fact I'd actually be hiring thugs off the street just to start fights and turn it into a nightly bloodbath. But my thing or not, this WORKS. Offensively. There's a reason a bunch of offensively fascinated coaches would go for it, despite the turnover issues.

[Bricklayer]

And I wonder why every team he has been on has missed the playoffs.

His teams have been terrible. Don't be an idiot.

And since emerging as a superstar in his 4th season, he has NEVER had a problem impacting his team's ability to win games. In fact notoriously Sacramento almost could not win a game without him. One season they LITERALLY did not win a game without him, and went 0-11 in games he missed. Overall during his time as a star there the win %s with and without him says he resulted in about an extra 15 wins a season for them, or would have if healthy. But when the team you are trying to elevate is a 15 win team without you, then you come back and lift them all the way to...30 wins, minus a few because you didn't play in all 82. And then idiots come along and blame you for the end result. A.D. knows a little something about that too. It's weak.

[jprdbulldog20]

His teams have been terrible. Don't be an idiot.

And since emerging as a superstar in his 4th season, he has NEVER had a problem impacting his team's ability to win games. In fact notoriously Sacramento almost could not win a game without him. One season they LITERALLY did not win a game without him, and went 0-11 in games he missed. Overall during his time as a star there the win %s with and without him says he resulted in about an extra 15 wins a season for them, or would have if healthy. But when the team you are trying to elevate is a 15 win team without you, then you come back and lift them all the way to...30 wins, minus a few because you didn't play in all 82. And then idiots come along and blame you for the end result. A.D. knows a little something about that too. It's weak.

So you have no issues with the team right now? Just a tough schedule. Playing ok. Maybe sneak into the playoffs as the 7 or 8 seed and play the Rockets or Warriors.

Though it's not my thing either really, I don't have a problem with the way they are playing offensively for the most part. We have almost a top 5 offensive efficiency. But there have been numerous games this season where the game gets tight in the 4th, we throw it down to Cousins in the post, and he does something dumb. Sometimes it's an offensive foul. Sometimes it's a pass to the opposite team. Sometimes it's forcing a bad shot.

Then there's that whole defense thing that our team is dreadful at.

I mean we could sit here and say, "Yeah, we're .500. We've had a tough schedule. We'll be fine." But that's not entirely accurate, is it? We have blown so many double digit leads. Our defense is near the bottom. We seem to struggle to close games out. What do you think? I assume you think giving Boogie the max is the best way to handle it? Or does it depend on if we make the playoffs and then how we do in the playoffs?

[tyler]

If you move cousins you might as well move AD too

[DefensiveMind]

Boogie Cousins is a me first pass player who will never win anything of note without a massive change in temperence which seems wholly beyond him. Fact.

He's not the first talented basketball player whose been asked to do a lot and he won't be the last. He can't do it, for reasons that our squarely on him.

[luckyman]

Keep blaming Cousins, but he kept the team in the game late with big shots. After it all, the team was in position to win the game. It's time for your coach to do his job.

[DefensiveMind]

Keep blaming Cousins, but he kept the team in the game late with big shots. After it all, the team was in position to win the game. It's time for your coach to do his job.

I blame four people. Cousins is merely one of them.


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[DefensiveMind]

If you move cousins you might as well move AD too

Maybe. But if the choice is basketball in New Orleans or him. Bye, Felicia.


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[pelicanchamp]

We should improve. I️ think we will close out this month going 3-3. I️ think next month we will do much better. 10-4. Going into feb I️ think we will be 28-22. We can go 8-4 in February and go into March 36-26. We can go 8-6 in March and head into April 44-32. In April we can go 3-3 or 4-2... we finish 47-35 or 48-34. We make the playoffs 7th seed to play 2nd seed Rockets...

We upset the rockets, CP3 gets injured and we win in 6. Warriors beat Denver. Spurs beat Minnesota. 5th OKC beats 4th seed Portland.

2nd round Spurs defeat OKC.
Warriors defeat the PELS in 6.

Warriors beat Spurs in WCF.

Warriors play CAVS again in the finals. Cavs win.

Cousin re-signs. We resign Miller. We make a major trade during draft night. We get the final piece we need. We win the championship in 2020.




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[Bricklayer]

Maybe. But if the choice is basketball in New Orleans or him. Bye, Felicia.


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The idea that you think there would be basketball in New Orleans after you dumped 2 All NBA big men, with a 90yr old owner and Seattle bucking for a team, is pretty amazing.

This is your team and your chance. As long as Boogie and Brow are healthy and in their primes the Pelicans will never be bad again. It's laughable to hear small market fans think they will do better. You can all live until you're old and grey and never see a pairing this potent hit a burg this small. Then to have the pairing like each other to the point of being best pals? To be non-glamour hounds/small town sorts of guys? That's now Spurs stuff. Find a Pop and you are golden.

[DefensiveMind]

The idea that you think there would be basketball in New Orleans after you dumped 2 All NBA big men, with a 90yr old owner and Seattle bucking for a team, is pretty amazing.

This is your team and your chance. As long as Boogie and Brow are healthy and in their primes the Pelicans will never be bad again. It's laughable to hear small market fans think they will do better. You can all live until you're old and grey and never see a pairing this potent hit a burg this small.

I’ll give you credit. You don’t give up, kudos to you. But 41-41 is 41-41 whether AD is our best player or Victor Oladipo is. I’d rather have hope and dreams, than unmet expectations.


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[new city champ]

The idea that you think there would be basketball in New Orleans after you dumped 2 All NBA big men, with a 90yr old owner and Seattle bucking for a team, is pretty amazing.

This is your team and your chance. As long as Boogie and Brow are healthy and in their primes the Pelicans will never be bad again. It's laughable to hear small market fans think they will do better. You can all live until you're old and grey and never see a pairing this potent hit a burg this small. Then to have the pairing like each other to the point of being best pals? To be non-glamour hounds/small town sorts of guys? That's now Spurs stuff. Find a Pop and you are golden.

Quick question: did you start following the Pels because they got DeMarcus? It doesn't invalidate your opinions, but I notice you seem to have joined up here around the same time he did. Is he the reason you follow the team?

[DefensiveMind]

Quick question: did you start following the Pels because they got DeMarcus? It doesn't invalidate your opinions, but I notice you seem to have joined up here around the same time he did. Is he the reason you follow the team?

Great question.


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[da ThRONe]

The idea that you think there would be basketball in New Orleans after you dumped 2 All NBA big men, with a 90yr old owner and Seattle bucking for a team, is pretty amazing.

This is your team and your chance. As long as Boogie and Brow are healthy and in their primes the Pelicans will never be bad again. It's laughable to hear small market fans think they will do better. You can all live until you're old and grey and never see a pairing this potent hit a burg this small. Then to have the pairing like each other to the point of being best pals? To be non-glamour hounds/small town sorts of guys? That's now Spurs stuff. Find a Pop and you are golden.

This assumes a lot. First it's on Cousins to stay here as much as it is on us to keep him. So just saying we should keep Boogie ignores the fact that he's a free agent this off season and we don't even have the option to offer the supermax.

Next just because we restart the team doesn't mean we are doomed to be awful for a long period or destined to relocate. Benson control over the team pay benefit much farther than tv deals and ticket sells.

Most importantly we have them both and we're still playing .500 ball. So yes the rest of the roster and Gentry are issues, but if these two players were that important we wouldn't be fighting just to get into the playoffs.

[toddkay]

We should improve. I️ think we will close out this month going 3-3. I️ think next month we will do much better. 10-4. Going into feb I️ think we will be 28-22. We can go 8-4 in February and go into March 36-26. We can go 8-6 in March and head into April 44-32. In April we can go 3-3 or 4-2... we finish 47-35 or 48-34. We make the playoffs 7th seed to play 2nd seed Rockets...

We upset the rockets, CP3 gets injured and we win in 6. Warriors beat Denver. Spurs beat Minnesota. 5th OKC beats 4th seed Portland.

2nd round Spurs defeat OKC.
Warriors defeat the PELS in 6.

Warriors beat Spurs in WCF.

Warriors play CAVS again in the finals. Cavs win.

Cousin re-signs. We resign Miller. We make a major trade during draft night. We get the final piece we need. We win the championship in 2020.




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Seriously, this is an entirely plausible scenario. Shouldn’t it be easier to move some of those terrible huge contracts by the trade deadline or draft day? The major trade could involve someone who is a deadly outside shooter and can play better perimeter defense than the guys we have now. We have a few good shooters now. AD, Cousins and the new acquisition could attract quality free agents. Maybe even a difference making coaching change as well to shake things up.

[DaFranchise80]

I tend to side with Bricklayer in this great debate. Change the head coach and bring in a guy that knows how to properly use big men. The new coach would not even allow Cousins to have the ball on the perimeter playing like a guard. Dave Joeger and Mike Malone figured it out. I wonder if Chris Finch was brought in as an eventual replacement for Gentry just in case the season went south early or by the all star break? I would strongly look into a coaching change right now if I was the front office. Give Boogie and company time to get used to the new coach and see where we are by April.

[Pelicanidae]

All I'm going to input into this conversation, because I'm still too angry about the game to go much further with it, is that all other things aside, Gentry running that final play with Jrue out iso and everyone else flat along the baseline, and just dribbling the clock out in regulation... That play alone is a fireable offense. And I've not been one of the guys crowing for Gentry to be fired all season, but that was an all-time bad play. Just ridiculously stupid, it threw the game away without even trying because we all knew how overtime would go: the altitude had already gotten to our guys and they were already winding down. Nobody could possibly think they'd suddenly revitalise in OT. Ridiculous decision.

[Bricklayer]

This assumes a lot. First it's on Cousins to stay here as much as it is on us to keep him. So just saying we should keep Boogie ignores the fact that he's a free agent this off season and we don't even have the option to offer the supermax.

Next just because we restart the team doesn't mean we are doomed to be awful for a long period or destined to relocate. Benson control over the team pay benefit much farther than tv deals and ticket sells.

Most importantly we have them both and we're still playing .500 ball. So yes the rest of the roster and Gentry are issues, but if these two players were that important we wouldn't be fighting just to get into the playoffs.

Tell that to OKC. Or Philly. Or Minnesota last year.

Or meanwhile explain San Antonio and the utter irrelevance, indeed apparent damaging nature of Kawhi Leonard. It takes a team. And an organized one.

You guys are really quite ridiculous. You've had jack and squat forever. Now you have an OBVIOUSLY competitive team in OBVIOUS contention for a playoff spot, with two OBVIOUS All Stars, and you are flipping out. Issues.

[DaFranchise80]

Tell that to OKC. Or Philly. Or Minnesota last year.

Or meanwhile explain San Antonio and the utter irrelevance, indeed apparent damaging nature of Kawhi Leonard. It takes a team. And an organized one.

You guys are really quite ridiculous. You've had jack and squat forever. Now you have an OBVIOUSLY competitive team in OBVIOUS contention for a playoff spot, with two OBVIOUS All Stars, and you are flipping out. Issues.

Change the coach and accountability will come. This team is too talented to have it wasted away with Gentry and his coaching. It’s always the players fault with him. When is he going to take responsibility for putting these guys into situations they are not skilled enough in or accustomed to?

[Mythrol]

Looking at how our team is playing though we don't need to make a ton of roster changes.

The only thing we need to do is stop having to force feed the ball to Cousins and watch as he iso's his way to another turnover.

Sitting here and saying "Cousins makes the biggest sacrifice" is a load of horse turds. Cousins doesn't sacrifice anything. He had 5 less shots than AD for this game BUT 9 turnsover where he was trying to drive to the basket to shoot.

The biggest problem with this team is turnovers because they create missed offensive opportunities and also don't allow us to get set on defense. Cousins is by far the biggest turnover machine on this team.

If it was during the course of running our system that Cousins got his turnovers people wouldn't have a problem. But it's not. Cousins turnovers almost exclusively are coming from when he is trying to take a player one-on-one either from the post or off the dribble drive. It's Cousins iso ball that's the problem and it has to stop.

No one that watched the game last night should be defending what Cousins did. Our offense is so good not because of Cousins iso ball, it's so good in spite of it. Just imagine how good our entire team offensively and defensively would be if we didn't have to cover over for his Iso antics.

The system is NOT the reason Cousins is on pace for the 3rd most turnovers in a season ever. Cousins trying to take guys iso off of dribbles is the reason.

Now is Cousins the only reason we lost last night? No. Gentry called a terrible end of game play and our team as a whole needs to clean up the turnovers. But Cousins was by FAR the biggest factor again last night. 9 turnovers is unacceptable, out of control dribbles to the basket where you lose the handle and throw up a prayer or get blocked is unacceptable, iso ball to end games is unacceptable.

There is a reason all 5 of our last losses we had double digit leads that disappeared. It's because at the end of games we stop running our system and Cousins goes iso, iso, iso.

That's on Cousins and that's on Gentry. Cousins either accepts that can't continue or he has to be moved, Gentry either stops it from happening or he gets fired. AD, Rondo, and Jrue also need to step up and absolutely chew into Cousins over this too.

It's enough. It has to stop. We would be a 4th seed right now if not for this BS.