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Thread: E'twaun Moore, Small Forward

  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    I'm not dismissing it, I've already said he definitely has shown the potential, but the fact is that he also has multiple other years shooting 2+ attempts per game, and falling well short of 40%. They both have one season of 40% shooting, the difference is that Cunningham has only tried twice whereas Moore has been trying for a long time and has just fallen short. And in their individual 40% seasons, Cunningham shot way more attempts, so if anyone had the more massive sample size at 40%, it's Cunningham and we can't just assume Moore will be our best shooter.
    Almost all of Cunningham's 3pt attempts came from the same spot. He has not demonstrated an ability to shoot from anywhere besides the corner. And Moore has better career 3 point percentage. I don't see how you can say Cunningham is the best perimeter shooter on the team just because he had 1 season of shooting the corner 3 well.

  2. #27
    I like Darius Miller at SF. He was really good in Europe.

  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by OnesieBells View Post
    I like Darius Miller at SF. He was really good in Europe.
    All he has to do is knock down open threes

  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth View Post
    Almost all of Cunningham's 3pt attempts came from the same spot. He has not demonstrated an ability to shoot from anywhere besides the corner. And Moore has better career 3 point percentage. I don't see how you can say Cunningham is the best perimeter shooter on the team just because he had 1 season of shooting the corner 3 well.
    I'm not going over this again. This will be the last thing I say about this topic, because frankly it's boring and it's becoming increasingly obviously you aren't even reading what I'm writing.

    Moore is a good shooter. He has shown that when he shoots low volumes he can have insane percentages. He has also shown through multiple years that as soon as he is needed to shoot higher volumes, that percentage plummets.

    Dante has no track record, because prior to last 2 seasons he never took any threes. So we can only judge on what we have seen, and in the two seasons he has been shooting threes his ability has been abundantly obvious, even with the same volume that sinks Moore's consistency.

    There is no evidence to show that Cunningham can only shoot from the corners and that Moore can shoot from anywhere. In fact, if you look at their shot charts, they both shoot essentially the same percentage from the corners, and again, Dante does so on more attempts. Moore made more attempts from elsewhere around the arc, but his actual percentages are no higher: in fact, Cunningham has more hotspots around the arc with numerous shots made than Moore does.

    Again, to clarify, I am NOT saying that Cunningham is invariably and inevitably our best perimeter shooter due to one season. I am saying it is very presumptive to gift that title to Moore before the season even begins despite him having a career filled with low shooting at higher volumes. I think it is more likely that Cunningham remains the same this year as he did last than it is for Moore to suddenly shoot 45% again on almost twice the number of attempts.

  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    I'm not going over this again. This will be the last thing I say about this topic, because frankly it's boring and it's becoming increasingly obviously you aren't even reading what I'm writing.
    Yes your responses are pretty boring, so I will appreciate you not repeating yourself again because unfortunately I have been reading what you wrote.
    Moore is a good shooter. He has shown that when he shoots low volumes he can have insane percentages. He has also shown through multiple years that as soon as he is needed to shoot higher volumes, that percentage plummets.

    Dante has no track record, because prior to last 2 seasons he never took any threes. So we can only judge on what we have seen, and in the two seasons he has been shooting threes his ability has been abundantly obvious, even with the same volume that sinks Moore's consistency.

    There is no evidence to show that Cunningham can only shoot from the corners and that Moore can shoot from anywhere. In fact, if you look at their shot charts, they both shoot essentially the same percentage from the corners, and again, Dante does so on more attempts. Moore made more attempts from elsewhere around the arc, but his actual percentages are no higher: in fact, Cunningham has more hotspots around the arc with numerous shots made than Moore does.
    Here is the evidence. Last season Cunningham shot over 46% from 3pt in one spot on the floor and shot < 36% from everywhere else behind the arc.

    http://nbasavant.com/player.php?ddlY...ayer_id=201967
    Again, to clarify, I am NOT saying that Cunningham is invariably and inevitably our best perimeter shooter due to one season. I am saying it is very presumptive to gift that title to Moore before the season even begins despite him having a career filled with low shooting at higher volumes. I think it is more likely that Cunningham remains the same this year as he did last than it is for Moore to suddenly shoot 45% again on almost twice the number of attempts.
    To recap, I said Moore is our best perimeter shooter, you disagreed and said Cunningham is better. Now you are trying to back away from it because upon further examination it is hard to defend that argument. According to you Cunningham has no track record shooting threes (did you mentally block out the previous season in which he put up over 150 attempts and did not have a good percentage?) According to the data he has a hot spot in the corner and below average everywhere else. A guy who has 1 year of good shooting from 1 spot on the floor is not our best perimeter shooter.... that just doesn't ring true.

  6. #31
    ADfan23 tyler's Avatar
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    I just don't see how ppl are putting Crawford behind Clark... The dude name is instant grits..
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BrEtGIuCYAAUHds.jpg

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth View Post
    Yes your responses are pretty boring, so I will appreciate you not repeating yourself again because unfortunately I have been reading what you wrote.

    Here is the evidence. Last season Cunningham shot over 46% from 3pt in one spot on the floor and shot < 36% from everywhere else behind the arc.

    http://nbasavant.com/player.php?ddlY...ayer_id=201967

    To recap, I said Moore is our best perimeter shooter, you disagreed and said Cunningham is better. Now you are trying to back away from it because upon further examination it is hard to defend that argument. According to you Cunningham has no track record shooting threes (did you mentally block out the previous season in which he put up over 150 attempts and did not have a good percentage?) According to the data he has a hot spot in the corner and below average everywhere else. A guy who has 1 year of good shooting from 1 spot on the floor is not our best perimeter shooter.... that just doesn't ring true.
    I looked at those shot charts for both dante and etwuan and it seems to me that you can't really make an argument that one of them is that much better than the other except that one shoots better than they other on different parts of the floor. When you have them both on the floor at the same time what you have is a greater than 45% shooter from each of the corners. At least based on last year's numbers.

  8. #33
    This is a lot of argument over a fairly meaningless decision imo. I think everyone should agree that Moore should play the most minutes out of the bunch, as well as finish most games. He's undoubtedly the 5th best player on the roster. I don't think Gentry will stick to the same starting lineup unless Miller proves he deserves to be in there. If Miller can't play, Gentry will rotate starters depending on matchups

  9. #34

    E'twaun Moore, Small Forward

    I would argue Allen, Cunningham, and maybe even Diallo and Crawford are better than Moore. Miller might be as well but I will wait on that one.
    Last edited by Mythrol; 10-01-2017 at 07:28 PM.

  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by pelafanatic View Post
    This is a lot of argument over a fairly meaningless decision imo. I think everyone should agree that Moore should play the most minutes out of the bunch, as well as finish most games. He's undoubtedly the 5th best player on the roster.

    What is this E'Twaun Moore fascination that occasionally pops up around here? There's very little evidence of him being much more than an entirely mediocre player. Let alone any evidence for him as a SF.


    Last year:
    PER: 12.1 (NBA Rank: 272nd)
    RPM: -1.82 (NBA Rank: 286th)
    BPM: -1.3 (NBA Rank: 233rd)
    DEF Diff: +2.6% (NBA Rank: 353rd)

    Now, you can score poorly in one of those categories, and maybe it's just a statistical blurb. I rarely trust single stats alone. That RPM is nearly identical to Rondo's last year. The BPM is identical to fading Dirk. But to be down in the bottom half of the league in EVERYTHING is hard to dismiss...what is the fascination with a 10pt 2reb 2ast slightly undersized pure SG again? His VORP was 0.3 last year. To get an estimated wins over replacement player you multiply VORP x2.70. Meaning by that estimate E'Twaun was worth about 0.8 wins over the course of the full season compared to just Joe Anybody. His defensive differential, even mostly at his main position, was right down there with Marcus Thornton, Ryan Anderson, and Nik Stauskas (and also Dante Cunningham, who sometimes gets more credit defensively than seems warranted). He's AN option in a sea of flawed options. But the idea that he's adding much in any area of the game is not born out by any stat you can uncover. At best he's a placeholder who won't singlehandedly kill you.
    Last edited by Bricklayer; 10-01-2017 at 09:14 PM.

  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Mythrol View Post
    I would argue Allen, Cunningham, and maybe even Diallo and Crawford are better than Moore. Miller might be as well but I will wait on that one.
    This is entirely absurd. Sure Tony Allen was a great defender but he's not the same player he once was. Cunningham didn't get an offer above the minimum because his game is so one dimensional. Diallo? Crawford? Miller? Three guys on minimum contracts who combined did not play as many minutes last season as Moore. Nearly every national writer said Moore was worth what we paid for him last year. He's a very solid, smart basketball player who is good at just about every phase of the game. He doesn't particularly excel at any single element (if you ignore his 2016 3 point percentage) but he does plenty enough for the team to make him the fifth best player.
    He's not a small forward but that really doesn't matter when it comes to minutes played. He can guard any backup wing in the NBA and most starting wings, as well as knock down the open 3 and make smart cuts. The guys you mentioned can all do one or two of those things, but Moore is the only player who can do all of those things consistently at an average to above average level. If a player does everything at an average level, that makes him an above average player. He's kind of the epitome of the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

  12. #37

    E'twaun Moore, Small Forward

    Asik was paid a lot of money too. The size of the contract means little to me in evaluating a player.


    I didn't even think of Ian Clark, he might be as good as Miller too.

    It's all opinion on who the 5th best player on this team is. Maybe you feel it is clear cut, I don't think that it is at all.

  13. #38
    I think you can make a reasonable case for Crawford and Clark. If Crawford continues his play from last season, then I'd say he may be better than Moore. If Clark continues to improve, he could become slightly better than Moore. At this point, though, I believe Moore is the 5th best player, and I think its pretty clear from the scrimmage that the team feels so as well.

  14. #39
    All things considered, its a good thing for the Pels that maybe you can make a case for someone else other than Moore to be our fifth best option. First of all, that means theres 4 players on the roster that are well-deserving of starting spots, something that had never been said of a Pelicans team before. Second, this roster is still very deep even with the Hill and Jackson injuries, and it was done on minimal contracts. Theres 4-5 bench players on this roster with about league average skill, but well above average bball IQs.

  15. #40
    I think that the 5th starter will be platooned. I wouldn't even consider them a "Small Forward". It's all about who they match up against. Some nights it could be Moore, other nights Allen, Miller, or Cunningham.

    The nights you play against a weak defensive front court with a strong backcourt/wings, could get more offensive game from Davis/Cousins. Maybe you start Allen since you will get higher offensive production from the front court. Maybe Gentry sees an advantage to start Moore/Miller due to better match-ups on the perimeter.

    Also, Jrue has been known to match up well on defense against the other teams "small forward". So technically, Jrue could be your "small forward" and you start Moore with that in mind.

    I just think it's not so cut and dry with this team.

  16. #41
    Pistol Pete Would Be Proud!! wuggie's Avatar
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    If Miller actually plays to his potential that would help this team soooooo much.

    R.I.P. to HunnyB/FlyGirl

  17. #42
    Hollygrove 4 Life DroopyDawg's Avatar
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    Dante is starting tomorrow (per AG).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYOiMDO3Fa8

  18. #43
    The Franchise Ludiculous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DroopyDawg View Post
    Dante is starting tomorrow (per AG).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYOiMDO3Fa8
    Interesting, with Ajinca out and Dante starting at the 3 that means they are going to take a hard look at our young bigs. Gotta watch Diallo, Jones, and Alexander. Especially Diallo he will prob get a ton of minutes.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

  19. #44
    Nice perimeter shooting from Moore in the first preseason game, 4 of 6 from 3pt land

  20. #45
    Moore looks good in the new system. Suits him very well.

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