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Apologies; you mentioned him losing Durant as a negative on his resume, so I assumed you held him at least somewhat responsible for it. If you didn't, then I shouldn't have spent so much time on it, but you also shouldnt mention it when weighing him up as an executive.
I would ask whether or not you consider R.C Buford to be a good GM or not?
I didn't mention Durant one time.Originally Posted by Pelicanidae
And I probably would consider him an above average GM when considering his entire tack record. But an elite one? Certainly not in recent years. Again, he deserves credit for taking advantage of what was put in front of him. But I can't ignore the context from which those opportunities arose. Nor can I ignore how taking advantage of them was portrayed in juxtaposition to Dell and Cousins.
Last edited by PelsFan2313; 09-23-2017 at 02:17 PM.
"I'm not going to allow my putative owner to answer that question, this is an NBA related press conference. Paul Tagliabue and Roger Goodell have collectively sung their praises of Tom and if uh ESPN has a problem with that tell Mr. Skipper to call me at my office."
You're right and I apologise: I mentally mixed two posts, one of which did refer to Durant leaving. That wasn't you (as you obviously know) and that's my mistake.
I do find it slightly odd though that you refer to context when considering the positive things and yet dismiss context when considering the Harden Vs Ibaka situation. You're clearly right in saying in hindsight he made the wrong move, but considering the team he was working with at the time and what parts they already had in place, it looks far better when put into context. I already agreed multiple times that in retrospect, Harden would have been a better choice but can you honestly say that in 2012 you knew Harden was going to be this good, and Ibaka was going to be such a letdown?
Who would you consider a good GM? If RC Buford isn't an elite GM after making the playoffs every year for longer than some NBA players have been alive, then I'm not sure what is. Isn't the whole point to build a team that makes the playoffs and wins rings? 5 rings across 20 years just sounds like golden management to me.
Semantics at this point. Is above average not good? Again he laid the foundation for a great team. My issue is how he squandered that potential dynasty in a series of misteps starting with Harden and ending with his underwhelming attempts to stop the bleeding. You keep pointing out the remote past. I keep pointing out his recent history. At some point his reputation was no longer tied to his actual performance. That's what I'm pointing out.
And no worries about mixing up the posts. Happens all the time.
Edit: My bad, I thought we were still talking about Presti lmao. Yes, I consider RC the gold standard. Speaking of mixing up posts haha
Last edited by PelsFan2313; 09-23-2017 at 04:12 PM.
Having the best platter to make blockbuster trades is called good GM'ing.
The reason why Presti still had ammunition left over after getting George is because he has managed his organization much more responsibly. It is why we are talking about guys like Tony Allen, Darius Miller, Solomon Hill, and maybe finding next seasons CJ Miles or Nick Young as the realistic path forward, and the Thunder are talking about Melo.
And at the end of the day, the records speak for themselves.
There's a difference between being good and being better. Especially when the other options are so limited. I guess Dell is a good GM because he had the best platter.
Presti is in an extremely fortuitous situation where he gets to kind of press the restart button. (I say kind if since neither George nor Melo are locked in long term). How sid this come about? Because he landed stars. How did he land those stars? Luck and timing.
Oladipo was on a terrible contract. Sabonis was nothing special. But he got George for the same reason Dell got Cousins: Indiana's GM loved Oladipo like Sacramento loved Hield. Add that to the fact he was on an expiring and the other options were severely limited.
With regards to the Melo trade, Kanter was another bad contract. He's an old school back to the basket big who can't play a lick of defense and he gets 16m a year. McD is on his third team in two years. And they land Melo, why? Because Portland's GM was a massive idiot last year. Cleveland doesnt want to give up any meaningful players because they are trying to win a championship. And Houston screwed the pooch when they committed 20m to Ryno. And on top of all that, Melo limited his options to a handful of teams so the teams with better assets couldn't bid for his services.
Luck and timing.
He once again has an amazing opportunity to build an actual contender. Let's see what he does with it.
Lowe tweet: https://twitter.com/ZachLowe_NBA/sta...42320214380544
Last edited by PelsFan2313; 09-23-2017 at 05:05 PM.
Presti is both. Not even really debatable at this moment in time.
2 losing seasons in his tenure, 8 45+ win seasons, 5 50+ win seasons. All in a small market that started as an abysmal bottom dweller. In one season went from losing Kevin Durant to FA to acquiring Paul George and Carmello Anthony.
I would rank only Buford, Myers, Morey, and maybe Ainge above Presti right now. Not sure who you could put above him after that. Which would put him in the elite category relatively speaking.
I already said he was above average. What I argued was he isn't elite and has been living off his earlier success instead of being judged off of his recent mediocrity. If you disagree, that's fine. That doesn't make it "not debatable."
You can talk about 45 and 50 wins and playoff apperances all you want. He had Westbrook, Harden, Durant, and Ibaka on one team and walked out with one Finals loss to show for it. That is not the product of an elite GM.
Do you recall what KD's recent controversial comments were about? The lack of a supporting cast. Who's job is it to fill in the roster with complimentary talent around the team's stars? The GM.
He didn't get the job done. Period.
Last edited by PelsFan2313; 09-23-2017 at 04:50 PM.
Very strange collection of talent. They're like opposite Pelicans...no bigs outside of Steven Adams.
So.... Does every possible wing that we will have trouble playing 3 guard against reside in the West now except LBJ? George, Butler, Melo, Kawhi, KD. Did I miss anyone?
The West sucks man.
@DanielVeuleman
Hayward and maybe Giannis (depending on what position you consider him). But yeah, the West is really brutal.
I just saw this. How is it that the west teams keep getting better players? I still hope the Pelicans can surprise everyone and the 4 towers; Davis, Cousins, Asik, and Diallo will play great ball.
Contributor
This doesn't really worry me. But with all the crap about Melo and big markets for him to end up there of all places...just funny.
I found Kanter's inclusion in the deal equally hilarious given how he's been talking about loyalty, family, and OKC being his home.
Kanter released a statement about his love for OKC and the organization ... 4 days later he got traded. Stay woke, it's a business.
— CJ McCollum (@CJMcCollum) September 23, 2017
Last edited by PelsFan2313; 09-23-2017 at 07:40 PM.
Huh?
Let's look at his team's recently:
- 47 wins, 1st round
- 55 wins, Western conference Finals
- 45 wins, missed playoffs
- 59 wins, Western conference finals
- 60 wins, Western conference semi finals
- 49 wins, NBA Finals.
Now who drafted Westbrook, Harden, Durant, Ibaka, Adams? That is the product of an elite GM.
The guy has been a model of consistency. Has he made some bad trades? Sure, so has Morey, arguably Aldridge may have been a mistake in hindsight with SA. Ainge has been pretty terrible drafting. You can kinda poke holes in even the best GM's. But over the course of his tenure, Presti has been near the top compared to his peers.
I will ask again, rank for me the better GM's then Presti? The only ones that have gotten it done since Presti took over and are still in the league are Buford, Myers, Ainge, Reilly, Nelson and Griffin. The latter you would be hard pressed to call better than Presti. And other then SA and Orlando, OKC is the only small market team(unless you consider Dallas one) that made it to the finals in that period.
Last edited by N.O.Bronco; 09-23-2017 at 07:54 PM.
Let's also remember part of the issue was the constraint of ownership. They were unwilling to go deep into the luxury tax the way a Golden State has been willing.
That is the asterisk that people trying to slam Presti seem to ignore. The ownership refused to go into the luxury tax that much to give him the full max. They had a hard limit on how high they would go and Presti had to work in that constraint.
Had it been LA or GS, or likely even SA, ownership probably eats the luxury and keeps all four. Then fills out the payroll with MLE, and minimum players looking to get a chip.
So outside of their starting 5 who exactly do they even have to come off the bench?
Sent from my SM-S903VL using Tapatalk
I'm not sure if you're failing to understand what I'm saying or simply ignoring it. So I'm just going to just respond in quotations.
What I argued was he isn't elite and has been living off his earlier success instead of being judged off of his recent mediocrity.Again he laid the foundation for a great team. My issue is how he squandered that potential dynasty in a series of misteps starting with Harden and ending with his underwhelming attempts to stop the bleeding. You keep pointing out the remote past. I keep pointing out his recent history. At some point his reputation was no longer tied to his actual performance. That's what I'm pointing out.It's beyond insane to juxtapose OKC's success to other small market teams. That's missing the point entirely. The point is he had the foundation for a potential dynasty and got nothing out of it. I've given him credit for drafting those players. I've only criticized how he handled the team once those stars were aligned.He had Westbrook, Harden, Durant, and Ibaka on one team and walked out with one Finals loss to show for it. That is not the product of an elite GM.
Again KD left specifically because the roster outside Westbrook was utter garbage. That is not the product of an elite GM. OKC circa 2012 will in my mind always be the biggest what if dynasty. Luckily for him, he has the opportunity to utilize Westbrook's talents for in all likelihood two more seasons. I have my doubts that Melo makes them that much better, but time will tell.
Last edited by PelsFan2313; 09-23-2017 at 08:36 PM.
It's definitely a bench that will be asked to tread water more then try and run up scores.
I would guess Melo starts at PF though.
What about 55 wins is mediocrity? Absolutely nothing. What about acquiring Paul George and Melo in one offseason when many felt OKC was in the midst of a major down period? You make these assertions and don't back them up.
What are you asking of him, to draft and get a new Durant to OKC every season? Have a bench like GS? Force ownership to go deep into luxury taxes they refused to do so he wouldn't have to make the choice of trading one of the dynasty components he built?
I will ask again, who are the better GM's then Presti right now(I am asking this partly because the nitpicking you want to use on Presti, can very easily be used on pretty much any GM not named Myers)? Heck, name me a better GM that has had to play in the financially constrained world Presti exsists in and in a small market? There is no one that has established the level of sustained success in a small market, with an ownership situation that refuses to go deep into luxury tax territory, except for San Antonio....And Presti helped build that too!!
Last edited by N.O.Bronco; 09-23-2017 at 08:33 PM.
It's not mediocre. But it's still the product of his earlier moves. It's like crediting the Cavs GM in 2007 for being a brilliant GM because they made the Finals. They made the Finals because they had LeBron Freaking James. It had nothing to do with his performance between drafting LeBron and making it to the finals. Their supporting cast was complete garbage.
The same applies with Presti. He was riding the immense amount of success he had from his earlier drafts but failed to make the necessary moves to give his diminishing number of stars the support they needed to win anything. That's the entire point.
And I'll get into the GM list a bit later. I'd have to look through the teams. I'll get back to you on that when I have a bit more time.
With regards to his performance this summer, I already addressed it. Here's the quote again.
Presti is in an extremely fortuitous situation where he gets to kind of press the restart button. (I say kind if since neither George nor Melo are locked in long term). How sid this come about? Because he landed stars. How did he land those stars? Luck and timing.
Oladipo was on a terrible contract. Sabonis was nothing special. But he got George for the same reason Dell got Cousins: Indiana's GM loved Oladipo like Sacramento loved Hield. Add that to the fact he was on an expiring and the other options were severely limited.
With regards to the Melo trade, Kanter was another bad contract. He's an old school back to the basket big who can't play a lick of defense and he gets 16m a year. McD is on his third team in two years. And they land Melo, why? Because Portland's GM was a massive idiot last year. Cleveland doesnt want to give up any meaningful players because they are trying to win a championship. And Houston screwed the pooch when they committed 20m to Ryno. And on top of all that, Melo limited his options to a handful of teams so the teams with better assets couldn't bid for his services.
Luck and timing.
He once again has an amazing opportunity to build an actual contender. Let's see what he does with it.
Lowe tweet: https://twitter.com/ZachLowe_NBA/sta...42320214380544
Last edited by PelsFan2313; 09-23-2017 at 08:43 PM.
Their starters are going to be playing a looooot of mins if that's the bench.It's definitely a bench that will be asked to tread water more then try and run up scores.
I would guess Melo starts at PF though.
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But running a franchise is a mix of maintaining success and continuing to build. Presti has managed that very well compared to almost all of his peers. Does he have missteps? Absolutely, but so does Ainge, so does Morey, so does Buford. And I would call all of them elite? Would you not?
He drafted those players, when constraints forced his hand, like with Harden/Ibaka, he continued to pile on the wins and find ways to keep the roster working. In hindsight, were there decisions that could of been made differently? Absolutely. But no GM has ever batted a thousand. Now Durant leaves in free agency, one of the biggest blows a franchise could have, one Reilly has not recovered from, Ainge took numerous seasons and still working, but a season later Presti has Paul George and Carmello Anthony. That is hardly resting on your laurels.
But I am seriously curious, who would you rank above Presti? I got Myers, Ainge, Buford, and maybe Morey and Reilly. But based on your earlier logic of requiring sustained success, finals wins, and living past your earlier successes, Morey should be out, also Reilly, and frankly so should Ainge. So we have Buford, Myers and Presti as the lone GM's that have had the greatest success and managed to maintain their success over the last ten years. And none of those GM's were under the financial and market constraints Presti has been under. Something I think people still refuse to give enough mind about.
Last edited by N.O.Bronco; 09-23-2017 at 08:52 PM.
And he has failed the latter.
Countering with George and Melo misses my argument again. I'm criticizing his inability to make meaningful moves between the Harden trade and this offseason (to build), which centered on the acquisitions you just mentioned (along with using those acquisitions to justify his status as an elite GM, which I disagree with because of insert: "his inability to make meaningful moves between the Harden trade and this offseason").
Am I holding him to a high standard? Yes. Why? A- Because we're discussing him in an "elite" class. But B- and more importantly, because he had a generational superstar foundation and did nothing with it. Nothing. Does that not blow your mind?Tell me what he did between letting Harden go for Ibaka (which was one of the worst decisions in recent memory) and trading for George. I'll wait.
Again, I didn't call him a bad GM. In fact, I said he's above average. He's simply not in an elite class in my eyes. Like I said in an earlier post (sound familiar?), I'll take a look at all the GMs and provide you a watered down list later when I have more time.
Last edited by PelsFan2313; 09-23-2017 at 09:03 PM.
Name a single other GM that has lost their biggest star and did what you require of Presti to not be dogged over this period of time?
Reilly? No. Ainge? No. Kupchak? No. Morey? No. Buford is really the only one but arguably that doesn't even really work since we have yet to see the post big three era play out.
What I am gathering is you are demanding a level of perfection from Presti to meet your impossible bar that literally no other GM in this period of time has managed to clear. And in comparing the GM's that lost their biggest star(s) over time, Presti has the best record of any of them.
Like I keep asking, lets name the better GM's over Presti's tenure in the league and start applying the same level of scrutiny you want to give Presti. I think you are going to find it pretty hard to make the case given the sort of bombs you are lobbing at Presti and will have to throw at anyone on your list not named Myers and Buford.
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