Bring back CP3

[Eman5805]

Why would he come to a team with barely 60 wins in 2 years.
Potential? Cousins is a career loser along with Alvin Gentry.
He wants a shot at a ring in the West.
Spurs and Rockets offer him that chance with a stable franchise.

The only really true thing you said was he wants a shot at the ring. I don't know if he has to do it in the West either. But you admonish our player's ability to win, like they exist in a vacuum. They aren't LeBron James in the mid 2000s. Leading weak, weak teams to the Finals.

Hell. You could say why would anyone want Chris Paul when he's never gotten a team past the 2nd round.


The reason he should come here is because of Anthony Davis and DeMarcus Cousins don't exist separately anymore. Because both are superior players to Blake Griffin and DeAndre Jordan. And frankly, given how the Spurs operate, he's not even an optimal fit there. Chris Paul likes to hold the ball a lot. He's a better fit with the Rockets. But he's also taking the ball out of the Harden's hands too. But whatever. They can split possessions bringing it up. Might lengthen Paul's career too.

[HoustonPelicans]

I'm going to ignore your first sentence because it's hyperbole.

I don't care how many games they've played together. The results were underwhelming. Do I expect them to be better with more playing time and familiarity? Sure. But that doesn't negate the fact that again there is no established record of winning basketball. That doesn't even take into account the fact that Boogie and AD apart, on their separate teams, have been perennial losers. I've won as many playoff games as they both have throughout the entirety of their careers...so again no established record of winning basketball.

And is it just me or is there a disconnect between calling AD a generational player and then saying "if only his teams were in the playoffs."

The point is you're trying to skip steps. To attract stars, you need to be respected. To be respected, you have to accomplish something. I mean anything. And none of our core players, Jrue included, can say they've accomplished anything meaningful on a team level.

A team like San Antonio on the other hand, you know the one that Paul might actually bolt to? They've got accolades on accolades. You know what that comes from? Sustained success. And to sustain success, you have to taste it in the first place. We haven't done that yet. And until we do, we're a middle tier free agent destination. That's not pessimism, it's realism.

Lastly, I get the appeal in zigging while they zag. We can't beat GS at their own game. Makes sense. But that doesn't mean going big is going to make us any better off than adapting to the small ball movement. It's an ongoing experiment...which means, again, no established record of winning basketball. Notice the theme? If we can show it works, the interest will come. Until then, we're just an enigma with an established record of losing basketball.

Okay so did Lebron not go back to Cleveland to join 2 "career losers" and ended up in the Finals 3 years in a row?

I don't view AD and Cousins as career losers especially AD. They have been on bad teams their whole career. Not to mention the Pelicans have had the worse injury luck ever. You expect AD to get to the playoffs in the West with a mediocre roster with bad injury luck? Well he did in 2015 and he's still a loser.

The Kings have drafted, signed and traded for nothing but garbage since drafting Cousins. Not to mention like 5 different mediocre coaches. But I guess that makes Cousins a loser too.

You're overlooking the best PF and the best C in the league because they have been on bad teams. You're overlooking their collegiate and Olympic success. You're calling them losers as if they're not the best players in the world at their respective positions. As successful as the Spurs have been in the past that won't mean anything when that record resets to 0-0 next season. Talent win games, and those 2 have a lot of it.

Chris Paul is one of those players who can turn a team around because of his leadership and ability to control the entire game from the point guard position. CP3 went to a Clippers team and completely turned them around from a 32 win team "career losers" to a perennial playoff team. Chris Paul comes and we become a destination for all of those ring chasing vets. Chris Paul will turn Anthony Davis into the most lethal offensive weapon in the league. And he still has Cousins as a 2nd option.

AD is so much better than Blake. Cousins is so much better than Deandre. I see where you're coming from but I think you're ignoring the talent these 2 guys possess.

Edit: Chris Paul is likely going to sign a 4 year deal so if he believes AD and Cousins is a lethal combination, what good would it do him to ink a deal with the Spurs and "wait for them to prove it". That gamble goes both ways is the point I'm trying to make.

[PELICANSFAN]

I said this months ago when we acquired Boogie, and I'll say it again. We're not an attractive free agent destination right now. Are we more attractive than we were a year ago? Sure. But stars aren't looking to join a team with potential. They are looking to join the real thing, a proven commodity. We haven't won a playoff game since the Chris Paul era. Sure a star can look at our team and say I can take this team from Point A to Point B. But why go through all that when you can just join a team thats already at point B looking to hit Point C? Before we can attract stars, we need to prove we're worth considering. And that comes from winning games. This rings true NOW more than ever with the looming dynasty that is GS. The standard of what constitutes a good team has shifted drastically. And championships have never meant more to how the media and the players interpret their own legacies.

Sounds good in theory. However, it is really at the whim of the players. Was Miami a proven winner before Wade, Bosh and Lebron teamed up?

[da ThRONe]

Sounds good in theory. However, it is really at the whim of the players. Was Miami a proven winner before Wade, Bosh and Lebron teamed up?

Terrible example. 1st Wade, James, and Bosh were all close friends(obviously more so with James and Wade). Next all those guys had more team success individually than anybody in our core combined.

[da ThRONe]

Okay so did Lebron not go back to Cleveland to join 2 "career losers" and ended up in the Finals 3 years in a row?

I don't view AD and Cousins as career losers especially AD. They have been on bad teams their whole career. Not to mention the Pelicans have had the worse injury luck ever. You expect AD to get to the playoffs in the West with a mediocre roster with bad injury luck? Well he did in 2015 and he's still a loser.

The Kings have drafted, signed and traded for nothing but garbage since drafting Cousins. Not to mention like 5 different mediocre coaches. But I guess that makes Cousins a loser too.

You're overlooking the best PF and the best C in the league because they have been on bad teams. You're overlooking their collegiate and Olympic success. You're calling them losers as if they're not the best players in the world at their respective positions. As successful as the Spurs have been in the past that won't mean anything when that record resets to 0-0 next season. Talent win games, and those 2 have a lot of it.

Chris Paul is one of those players who can turn a team around because of his leadership and ability to control the entire game from the point guard position. CP3 went to a Clippers team and completely turned them around from a 32 win team "career losers" to a perennial playoff team. Chris Paul comes and we become a destination for all of those ring chasing vets. Chris Paul will turn Anthony Davis into the most lethal offensive weapon in the league. And he still has Cousins as a 2nd option.

AD is so much better than Blake. Cousins is so much better than Deandre. I see where you're coming from but I think you're ignoring the talent these 2 guys possess.

Edit: Chris Paul is likely going to sign a 4 year deal so if he believes AD and Cousins is a lethal combination, what good would it do him to ink a deal with the Spurs and "wait for them to prove it". That gamble goes both ways is the point I'm trying to make.

Using LeBron is terrible reasoning. This is a true generational talent. This guy is legitimately in the conversation as the best basketball player ever. Any team that he signed with has a solid chance of being a title contender. Plus he's from that region and going back (and eventually winning a title) added immensely to his legacy. There's no one that even remotely fits that comparsion for us.

[HoustonPelicans]

Using LeBron is terrible reasoning. This is a true generational talent. This guy is legitimately in the conversation as the best basketball player ever. Any team that he signed with has a solid chance of being a title contender. Plus he's from that region and going back (and eventually winning a title) added immensely to his legacy. There's no one that even remotely fits that comparsion for us.

Agreed to an extent. Chris Paul would be returning home to where he started his career, winning a ring here would be bigger for his legacy than winning anywhere else. I used Lebron as an example of a superstar joining up with 2 "career losers". Chris Paul would be joining much better "career losers" if that's any consolation.

[Buckwheat]

Guys also consider Coaching.
A Head Coach does make a huge difference in a FA choice.
Is Alvin Gentry hurting the Pelicans at this juncture trying to lure top talent?

[hornetsrebirth]

Cousins Jrue and Davis ??
Are you serious trying to compare that to the Spurs?
All three are Losers for the last 4 years in the NBA.
These Elite players are not going to sign based on dreams and potential
Plus add in the factor we have the career loser Head Coach Alvin Gentry
The Pelicans need to rebuild hoping to win 35+ plus games next season.

I didn't know Donald trump was a member here

[PelsFan2313]

Using LeBron is terrible reasoning. This is a true generational talent. This guy is legitimately in the conversation as the best basketball player ever. Any team that he signed with has a solid chance of being a title contender. Plus he's from that region and going back (and eventually winning a title) added immensely to his legacy. There's no one that even remotely fits that comparsion for us.

Exactly. I figured he'd come up in a counterargument sooner or later because he's the exception. I mean he's been to the Finals seven straight times and is arguably the second greatest player of all time. What other player can guarantee you that level of success year after year? You know who can't? The guy who's never made it past the second round. His name is Chris Paul.

And the reason LeBron went back to Cleveland is because he's from there, that's his hometown and, in light of that, it was a move designed specifically to cement his legacy. So again, garbage reasoning.

[PELICANSFAN]

Terrible example. 1st Wade, James, and Bosh were all close friends(obviously more so with James and Wade). Next all those guys had more team success individually than anybody in our core combined.

That is why it is a good example. They got together because they were friends. It had nothing to do with joining a successful team. There are other reasons teams are able to get the top stars, not just previous championships.

[PelsFan2313]

That is why it is a good example. They got together because they were friends. It had nothing to do with joining a successful team. There are other reasons teams are able to get the top stars, not just previous championships.

Absolutely untrue, it remains a poor exmaple. Being friends played a role, perhaps, a large role, but you're missing the bigger picture. When they got together, the expectation was multiple championships. Not one, not two, not three, etc. LeBron left Cleveland to join his friends AND get rings.

http://www.espn.com/espn/page2/index/_/id/5382617

On the other hand, if CP3 joins AD and Boogie, the Warriors remain the overwhelming favorites to win next year's finals.

[hornetsrebirth]

On the other hand, if CP3 joins AD and Boogie, the Warriors remain the overwhelming favorites to win next year's finals.

The Warriors remain the favorites no matter what happens. But if CP3 joined AD and Boogie, that would be the team to reckon with. An all NBA HOF point guard with an All NBA court tandem, combined with some 3 and D guys, the sky is the limit. The biggest question left would be coaching, but CP3 is such a floor general he is practically a coach.

I'm not getting my hopes up about CP3 coming back. However there are some reasons for him to do it. He is an extremely competitive guy, he wants that ring bad enough that he is considering leaving money on the table to leave LA. Joining up with AD and Boogie is one of his best options for a team with top tier talent, I don't think there is any other team with 2 top 15 players and no point guard. He has roots in New Orleans, it would be a narrative similar to Lebron returning to Cleveland. If CP3 is willing to pass up the extra money to leave LA to pursue a ring, NOLA has to be a serious consideration for him.

[PelsFan2313]

The Warriors remain the favorites no matter what happens.

Probably, but as you noted, Chris Paul is an extremely competitive guy. Unless he stays in LA for money reasons, he's going to look for the situation that puts him in the best situation to compete with GS. New Orleans isn't in the discussion, not yet. Perhaps not ever. Time will tell. To this point, neither the Pelicans nor any of their core players have accomplished anything noteworthy on a team level. One playoff win would be a good start.

it would be a narrative similar to Lebron returning to Cleveland.

No, the narrative isn't at all similar. LeBron was willing to come back to Cleveland because A- He already won two rings; B- He still had a legitimate shot of getting back to the Finals because he's LeBron Freaking James, King of the East; and C- He's the prodigal son of Cleveland. Chris Paul has never made it past the second round and is entering the final years of his prime. Why gamble on New Orleans when he can join a proven commodity like San Antonio? Everyone wants to argue the appeal of New Orleans; nobody wants to argue the appeal of New Orleans relative to other proven commodities like San Antonio. They are two different arguments.

I'm not getting my hopes up about CP3 coming back.

Happy to hear it.

[hornetsrebirth]

Probably, but as you noted, Chris Paul is an extremely competitive guy. Unless he stays in LA for money reasons, he's going to look for the situation that puts him in the best situation to compete with GS. New Orleans isn't in the discussion, not yet. Perhaps not ever. Time will tell. To this point, neither the Pelicans nor any of their core players have accomplished anything noteworthy on a team level. One playoff win would be a good start.



No, the narrative isn't at all similar. LeBron was willing to come back to Cleveland because A- He already won two rings; B- He still had a legitimate shot of getting back to the Finals because he's LeBron Freaking James, King of the East; and C- He's the prodigal son of Cleveland. Chris Paul has never made it past the second round and is entering the final years of his prime. Why gamble on New Orleans when he can join a proven commodity like San Antonio? Everyone wants to argue the appeal of New Orleans; nobody wants to argue the appeal of New Orleans relative to other proven commodities like San Antonio. They are two different arguments.



Happy to hear it.

You are claiming that CP3, AD, and Boogie on the same team wouldn't even be in the discussion for contenders? That's just absolutely ridiculous. The only reason San Antonio can be seen as a more attractive destination than NOLA is because of the coaching. Personnel wise they have Kawhi and then who? Guards that are way past their prime, and Aldridge who barely showed up in the playoffs.

[NMThreeMVP]

You are claiming that CP3, AD, and Boogie on the same team wouldn't even be in the discussion for contenders? That's just absolutely ridiculous. The only reason San Antonio can be seen as a more attractive destination than NOLA is because of the coaching. Personnel wise they have Kawhi and then who? Guards that are way past their prime, and Aldridge who barely showed up in the playoffs.

Spurs are also in Texas, and that ZERO state income tax thing is a real factor if CP3 is already considering giving up money by leaving the Clippers.

[luckyman]

I'm going to ignore your first sentence because it's hyperbole.

I don't care how many games they've played together. The results were underwhelming.

Well that kills any attempt at logic in your argument. How many games they played together matters. It matters a lot. It's like saying the 2010/'11 Miami Heat were going to be mediocre based on the first 20 games Lebron, Wade, and Bosh played together. That makes 0 sense whatsoever.

Nevermind the fact that the results were not underwhelming. They beat playoff teams even when Davis was out and Cousins had to carry the load. Nevermind that they had no training camp together. Nevermind that the team's depth was also gutted after the trade.

So let's try to make arguments that makes sense shall we?

[PelsFan2313]

You are claiming that CP3, AD, and Boogie on the same team wouldn't even be in the discussion for contenders? That's just absolutely ridiculous. The only reason San Antonio can be seen as a more attractive destination than NOLA is because of the coaching. Personnel wise they have Kawhi and then who? Guards that are way past their prime, and Aldridge who barely showed up in the playoffs.

I'm saying that if Chris Paul wants to join a team to contend for a title, he's going to choose a team that has already proven they can win without him.

San Antonio is more attractive than New Orleans, and it's not even close. Arguing otherwise proves nothing other than your homerism. They have arguably the greatest coach of all time and haven't won less than 50 games since 1999. They also have a top 5 player in Kawhi Leonard, who continues to get better every year and played at an MVP level. Last time I checked, San Antonio, with their "lack of personnel" made it to the WCF last year. Where was New Orleans? Oh that's right, they were at home, again.

[PelsFan2313]

Well that kills any attempt at logic in your argument. How many games they played together matters. It matters a lot. It's like saying the 2010/'11 Miami Heat were going to be mediocre based on the first 20 games Lebron, Wade, and Bosh played together. That makes 0 sense whatsoever.

Nevermind the fact that the results were not underwhelming. They beat playoff teams even when Davis was out and Cousins had to carry the load. Nevermind that they had no training camp together. Nevermind that the team's depth was also gutted after the trade.

So let's try to make arguments that makes sense shall we?

I didn't say it didn't matter. If you bothered to read the very next sentence, I acknowledged that more time/chemistry would probably lead to more wins.

Do I expect them to be better with more playing time and familiarity? Sure.

The point of that statement was to support the theme of the entire post: To this point, we have no establishing record of winning basketball. That point is indisputable, no matter how biased you are.

Let's try to understand arguments that make sense shall we?

[luckyman]

I didn't say it didn't matter. If you bothered to read the very next sentence, I acknowledged that more time/chemistry would probably lead to more wins.



The point of that statement was to support the theme of the entire post: To this point, we have no establishing record of winning basketball. That point is indisputable, no matter how biased you are.

Let's try to understand arguments that make sense shall we?

I do and it still makes no sense. We are not auditing the past. We are trying to project the future. As such, looking at the small sample of last year's AD/Cousins makes no sense in projecting the 2017 team. Especially when even in that small sample, they played pretty well after the first 5 games.

Same with the Spurs. If Chris Paul could sign with the 2010 team that fantastic. But he's not. The Spurs history has no bearing on what he should expect for the 2017 version of that team. It's obvious they are going through a transition. Their old core has all but disappeared and LMA wants out. And he's not being nice about it. I'm sure he thought that team would be attractive a few years ago as well. Not anymore. They are having to rely on free agents a lot more than they used to for a reason. So, does building around Kahwi Leonard that still look appealing to Chris Paul for next year?

And also, when you say

Quote Originally Posted by PelsFan2313 View Post

I don't care how many games they've played together.

That means it didn't matter to you. Don't cherry pick your own quotes. Stick to it.

[PelsFan2313]

I do and it still makes no sense. We are not auditing the past. We are trying to project the future. As such, looking at the small sample of last year's AD/Cousins makes no sense in projecting the 2017 team. Especially when even in that small sample, they played pretty well after the first 5 games.

Same with the Spurs. If Chris Paul could sign with the 2010 team that fantastic. But he's not. The Spurs history has no bearing on what he should expect for the 2017 version of that team. It's obvious they are going through a transition. Their old core has all but disappeared and LMA wants out. And he's not being nice about it. I'm sure he thought that team would be attractive a few years ago as well. Not anymore. They are having to rely on free agents a lot more than they used to for a reason. So, does that still look appealing to Chris Paul?

The past absolutely matters. How do you evaluate the quality of an organization? Past performance, what they have actually accomplished in recent years. Heck, what they are CURRENTLY accomplishing. Why are we talking about the Spurs like they are dead? They just went to the freaking WCF. They have an MVP caliber superstar who's only 25 years old. Last time I checked, they still have Pop.

If I'm a star and I'm looking to win, I want to join PLAYERS and ORGANIZATIONS that have proven they can win. I'm not trying to go from Point A to Point B, I'm trying to go from Point B to Point C.

But yes, I agree they do have to rely on free agents more than they used to. Their "Big 3" core were all drafted players, and now that era has certainly passed. But just like they did with LMA (IN 2015, since apparently they haven't been attractive since 2010), they can continue to land big free agents. Because the foundation is STILL there. A legendary coach, a stud GM, and a Top 5 talent in Kawhi.

And also, when you say

That means it didn't matter to you. Don't cherry pick your own quotes. Stick to it.

Context is a thing. If you're going to bother to read the response, read the original comment too. I said "I don't care" because he made the same point that you did, which was BUT they only played 30 games together! I don't care about that point. Just as I made clear in my original respone. Just as I made clear in my response to you. That on top of providing a contrary subsequent sentence more than demonstrates an absence of cherrypicking. Coming from the king of cherrypicking, that was rich by the way.

[PelsFan2313]

I don't understand why this such a difficult reality to grasp. Far too many people are giving credit for something that simply hasn't happened. Just saying we have Davis and Cousins when neither has individual success or as a team is ignoring the way this league works.

I have no clue. I really don't.

[da ThRONe]

That is why it is a good example. They got together because they were friends. It had nothing to do with joining a successful team. There are other reasons teams are able to get the top stars, not just previous championships.

But all those guys were proven needle movers. Bosh was the worse of the 3 and he would routinely take a decent Raptors team to the playoffs.

[PELICANSFAN]

Absolutely untrue, it remains a poor exmaple. Being friends played a role, perhaps, a large role, but you're missing the bigger picture. When they got together, the expectation was multiple championships. Not one, not two, not three, etc. LeBron left Cleveland to join his friends AND get rings.

http://www.espn.com/espn/page2/index/_/id/5382617

On the other hand, if CP3 joins AD and Boogie, the Warriors remain the overwhelming favorites to win next year's finals.

Isn't that the same expectation of all the stars who join up with other stars? The discussion was that stars want to go to established winners or championship contenders. In the Miami situation, it was a much different draw. It was friends who wanted to win together, not the team.

[PelsFan2313]

Isn't that the same expectation of all the stars who join up with other stars? The discussion was that stars want to go to established winners or championship contenders. In the Miami situation, it was a much different draw. It was friends who wanted to win together, not the team.

Ah, I get the distinction you're making. I guess I would respond to that in two ways. First, we're still talking about LeBron, so the expectation is you're going to compete irregardless of the organization's standing (i.e., he's the exception, not the rule). Second, and more to your point, Miami still had an established winner in Wade, who was coming off a championship and Finals MVP in 2006 (three years before LeBron and Bosh hopped to Miami) and the allure of Riley, who won multiple championships with the showtime Lakers and Miami in 2006 as team president. As evident from the link I provided, his pitch played a key role in attracting LeBron to Miami; Riley could talk the talk because he walked the walk (the rings), and that level of respectability elongated over the entirety of the organization.

[hornetsrebirth]

I'm saying that if Chris Paul wants to join a team to contend for a title, he's going to choose a team that has already proven they can win without him.

San Antonio is more attractive than New Orleans, and it's not even close. Arguing otherwise proves nothing other than your homerism. They have arguably the greatest coach of all time and haven't won less than 50 games since 1999. They also have a top 5 player in Kawhi Leonard, who continues to get better every year and played at an MVP level. Last time I checked, San Antonio, with their "lack of personnel" made it to the WCF last year. Where was New Orleans? Oh that's right, they were at home, again.

What the Spurs did in 1999 doesn't have a single thing to do with 2017. You are talking about an era when Ginobli, Parker, Duncan were all in their primes. That time is gone now. The Spurs have the greatest NBA coach as well as 1 great player in Kawhi, but I notice that you failed to name another player besides him in your response. That right there says it all.

The Pelicans were without Boogie for most of the year (and without Jrue as well). A Pelicans team that has no Cousins and no CP3 is not the same as the Pelicans team with CP3 and Cousins. So what the Pelicans did last year is almost as relevant as what the Spurs did 18 years ago.

Spurs are also in Texas, and that ZERO state income tax thing is a real factor if CP3 is already considering giving up money by leaving the Clippers.

If CP3 is making the decision based on money he stays in LA, so the income tax thing doesn't seem like a factor if he leaves the Clippers. Besides, he would still have to pay income tax for games played on the road, so its not like there would be zero tax on his income if he played for the Spurs.