What's missing for this team to make a Jazz like leap?

[UNO Gracias]

Bringing back both Hill and Hayward seems to be 50/50 at best. If they bring them both back, will the MLE be enough for Ingles? I think someone gives him Ryan Anderson type money. The idea that all 3 come back and they run it back with a team that wasn't competitive with the Warriors is a possibility, but 4 years of the Jazz locked into a Big 3 of Hayward/Gobert/Hill running 1988 offense, sounds like a win for every other Western Conference team hoping to contend.

Whoever wrote this piece for Deadspin saw something more in Dante Exum than I ever saw during this series. Being "a perennial tough Western Conference out" sound a lot like being the Memphis Grizzlies under Lionel Hollins. For them to get better would mean Hood has to make a giant leap next year (he could), and for them to continue to get super efficiency on offense from every one else. They'll be stuck with Boris, and Boris is done. Can Joe Johnson continue to give them 24 mpg at age 36?

If I were a Jazz fan, I could trick myself into being optimistic about this team, especially coming off of a good regular season and winning a 7 game series against the Clippers. But it's far more likely they take a huge step backwards this offseason than it is that they take a huge step forward.

For the Pelicans, oddly enough they're in a similar position that the Jazz were in going into Snyder's 3rd year. They need to improve their play at PG. If the Pelicans can similarly do that, their ceiling will be much higher than the Jazz, and Gentry will have a team capable of more than just being "a perennial tough Western Conference out".

What team was competitive with the Warriors? You said in another thread that the Warriors are better than the Cavs, so why are you expecting the Jazz to be as competitive? Either you believe the Warriors are the best, and there really isn't any competition that they will face that is better than them, or the Warriors aren't the best, and the Jazz are just not that good (how odd, the Jazz are not good even though they made it to the 2nd round after beating the Clippers while they were down Gobert in 3 of the games).

I agree with you that Gobert, Hayward, and Hill are not a scary Big 3, and it will be hard to keep Hill and Hayward together, but their system isn't a bad one, they are just like everyone else, and need better scorers around their key guys. It will be interesting to see if they lose Hill what direction they will go in. You know the Jazz are one of the few teams that could sign Jrue, and then give Hayward big money. I think Jrue is better than Hill, but thats just MHO. A Gobert, Hayward, Holliday trio would be scarier than Gobert/Hayward/Hill. If they lose Hayward to the Celtics that would also be interesting as now you don't have a Big 3, and the team would obviously take a big step back (leaving only Gobert in Utah). Their system isn't the problem (they are the 5th seed int he West and int he 2nd round), its all about getting more consistent scoring around the team. ISO Joe didn't play well during the regular season, but he stepped it up in the postseason. The Jazz needed his playoff stats during the regular season.

I agree about Exum. Even a writer on BSS wrote about how Exum could be an option here should we lose Jrue. I am not a fan of that. Exum came into the league heralded as one of the premier talents, and he has really stunk it up. I think Hood however gets it. He played well in a few games during the playoffs, and I think he will only get better. This is both Hood and Exum's second year, but I think Hood has the higher ceiling of the two. The guys that they really need to turn it on are Lyles & Favors. They need a big who can score since Gobert can't. If those guys can stay healthy and improve, the Jazz could take a major step forward.

I agree that if they lose Hayward and Hill they will take a major step back, but what team wouldn't if they lose key players? But if the guys stay, or they can make an upgrade in their starting 5, they will only continue their climb. They are improving every year under Monty with the good hair, hard to see that stopping if everyone hangs around. Sadly (like us) they are in the West, and you can get optimistic about your future, but then you still have the saw mill in Golden State cutting through everyone in the West. I don't know how any team in the West can feel optimistic.

The Pelican's with AD and Boogie obviously have the higher ceiling. They have two top ten players, the Jazz have what, 1 top 20 player? The difference is putting a winning system together. The Jazz are showing that their system is working as they have improved each of the last 3 years. We have yet to show that we have a system in place that will maximize our talent. Time will tell if we ever find that system, but right now we are an enigma, while the Jazz are just a system slowly improving.

[NMThreeMVP]

What team was competitive with the Warriors? You said in another thread that the Warriors are better than the Cavs, so why are you expecting the Jazz to be as competitive? Either you believe the Warriors are the best, and there really isn't any competition that they will face that is better than them, or the Warriors aren't the best, and the Jazz are just not that good (how odd, the Jazz are not good even though they made it to the 2nd round after beating the Clippers while they were down Gobert in 3 of the games).

You present two options as if those are the only options. I never said the Warriors wouldn't face competition, or that they were significantly better than Rockets, Spurs, or Cavs. I only said they're better. All 3 of those teams will be competitive with the Warriors. The Jazz were not competitive at all with the Warriors.

Blake Griffin is more important to the Clippers, because the Clippers lack the depth that the Jazz do, than Gobert is to the Jazz. This was an even series in a 4/5 seed matchup, before Blake went out. The Jazz needed a Joe Johnson buzzer beater to win game one and loss a closeout game on their home court in game 6 to a team missing an All NBA player. I expect Jazz fans to be fooled and impressed by this, but I'm struggling to see why an objective Pel's fan is.

I agree with you that Gobert, Hayward, and Hill are not a scary Big 3, and it will be hard to keep Hill and Hayward together, but their system isn't a bad one, they are just like everyone else, and need better scorers around their key guys. It will be interesting to see if they lose Hill what direction they will go in. You know the Jazz are one of the few teams that could sign Jrue, and then give Hayward big money. I think Jrue is better than Hill, but thats just MHO. A Gobert, Hayward, Holliday trio would be scarier than Gobert/Hayward/Hill. If they lose Hayward to the Celtics that would also be interesting as now you don't have a Big 3, and the team would obviously take a big step back (leaving only Gobert in Utah). Their system isn't the problem (they are the 5th seed int he West and int he 2nd round), its all about getting more consistent scoring around the team. ISO Joe didn't play well during the regular season, but he stepped it up in the postseason. The Jazz needed his playoff stats during the regular season.

I understand it's easy to fall back to "they were a 5th seed and made it to the 2nd round" as evidence that their system works. But look beyond their regular season success against non playoff teams (which is why they were a 5th seed), and look historically at the last decade of basketball and the current state of the NBA. You can't win against the best teams with their offense, because they will always outscore you over a 7 game series. When Quin Snyder's teams get into a shootout, the fall apart. They're not much different than Toronto in the East.

I agree about Exum. Even a writer on BSS wrote about how Exum could be an option here should we lose Jrue. I am not a fan of that. Exum came into the league heralded as one of the premier talents, and he has really stunk it up. I think Hood however gets it. He played well in a few games during the playoffs, and I think he will only get better. This is both Hood and Exum's second year, but I think Hood has the higher ceiling of the two. The guys that they really need to turn it on are Lyles & Favors. They need a big who can score since Gobert can't. If those guys can stay healthy and improve, the Jazz could take a major step forward.

Hood is the one they need to make a leap. If he can do it, they'll exceed all my expectations. But I'm not holding my breath at all on Lyles and Favors. In fact, I could see them trying to trade Favors, because I doubt they can resign him next summer.

I agree that if they lose Hayward and Hill they will take a major step back, but what team wouldn't if they lose key players? But if the guys stay, or they can make an upgrade in their starting 5, they will only continue their climb. They are improving every year under Monty with the good hair, hard to see that stopping if everyone hangs around. Sadly (like us) they are in the West, and you can get optimistic about your future, but then you still have the saw mill in Golden State cutting through everyone in the West. I don't know how any team in the West can feel optimistic.

The Pelican's with AD and Boogie obviously have the higher ceiling. They have two top ten players, the Jazz have what, 1 top 20 player? The difference is putting a winning system together. The Jazz are showing that their system is working as they have improved each of the last 3 years. We have yet to show that we have a system in place that will maximize our talent. Time will tell if we ever find that system, but right now we are an enigma, while the Jazz are just a system slowly improving.

Be patient. That massive improvement the Jazz saw from year 1 to year 2 of their system was 2 wins. Over Gentry's first 2 years Del has given him zero continuity, but going into year 3 he has the chance to demonstrate whether or not he can make a similar leap in improvement to what the Jazz did in year 3. My bet against the Jazz is obviously somewhat based on the uncertainty of their roster. They have 2 starters and a key contributor off the bench as free agents, and it's Utah. I mean, to be honest, if Hayward were black would anyone assume he's resigning in Utah? The only reason we don't think he's going to play for Spoelstra and Riley in Miami, or his former college coach in Boston, is because he's a white dude. Nothing wrong with that, but I'm trying to be objective! The Jazz jerked him around the last time he was a free agent and Hayward could make more endorsement money if he got out of Utah. This Jazz team has a better chance of losing one of those 3 free agents than they do of getting better, but I wouldn't bet my house either way.

Regardless of what the Jazz do, if the Pelicans get the PG position figured out, I think they'll finish ahead of the Jazz in playoff seeding next year, and be a more a dangerous playoff team.

[Champ]

You present two options as if those are the only options. I never said the Warriors wouldn't face competition, or that they were significantly better than Rockets, Spurs, or Cavs. I only said they're better. All 3 of those teams will be competitive with the Warriors. The Jazz were not competitive at all with the Warriors.

Blake Griffin is more important to the Clippers, because the Clippers lack the depth that the Jazz do, than Gobert is to the Jazz. This was an even series in a 4/5 seed matchup, before Blake went out. The Jazz needed a Joe Johnson buzzer beater to win game one and loss a closeout game on their home court in game 6 to a team missing an All NBA player. I expect Jazz fans to be fooled and impressed by this, but I'm struggling to see why an objective Pel's fan is.


I understand it's easy to fall back to "they were a 5th seed and made it to the 2nd round" as evidence that their system works. But look beyond their regular season success against non playoff teams (which is why they were a 5th seed), and look historically at the last decade of basketball and the current state of the NBA. You can't win against the best teams with their offense, because they will always outscore you over a 7 game series. When Quin Snyder's teams get into a shootout, the fall apart. They're not much different than Toronto in the East.



Hood is the one they need to make a leap. If he can do it, they'll exceed all my expectations. But I'm not holding my breath at all on Lyles and Favors. In fact, I could see them trying to trade Favors, because I doubt they can resign him next summer.




Be patient. That massive improvement the Jazz saw from year 1 to year 2 of their system was 2 wins. Over Gentry's first 2 years Del has given him zero continuity, but going into year 3 he has the chance to demonstrate whether or not he can make a similar leap in improvement to what the Jazz did in year 3. My bet against the Jazz is obviously somewhat based on the uncertainty of their roster. They have 2 starters and a key contributor off the bench as free agents, and it's Utah. I mean, to be honest, if Hayward were black would anyone assume he's resigning in Utah? The only reason we don't think he's going to play for Spoelstra and Riley in Miami, or his former college coach in Boston, is because he's a white dude. Nothing wrong with that, but I'm trying to be objective! The Jazz jerked him around the last time he was a free agent and Hayward could make more endorsement money if he got out of Utah. This Jazz team has a better chance of losing one of those 3 free agents than they do of getting better, but I wouldn't bet my house either way.

Regardless of what the Jazz do, if the Pelicans get the PG position figured out, I think they'll finish ahead of the Jazz in playoff seeding next year, and be a more a dangerous playoff team.

You sure are on here a lot for someone that owns a multi- million dollar business. You worry about the Jazz to much too.

[NMThreeMVP]

You sure are on here a lot for someone that owns a multi- million dollar business. You worry about the Jazz to much too.

You can't read.
Never said I owned anything. Time is a construct for the lazy man. I don't punch a clock.

And I think the Jazz are overrated and aren't worth trying to emulate, but the OP asked how can we be like the Jazz. The answer is get consistent PG play, not hire a coach to run an outdated system.

Your contribution is what I expect from a guy who identifies with Buddy D and Bobby Hebert. Stay in your lane.

[All Metro]

Why was this moved

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[NMThreeMVP]

Why was this moved

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

I never ask why the mods do what they do. The Mods must be crazy!

[All Metro]

Nazi mods

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[Champ]

All hail Meds!

[Champ]

I meant mods!

[UNO Gracias]

I'm not sure why this thread was moved either. We kept it within the navigational buoys.

[DaFranchise80]

I'm not sure why this thread was moved either. We kept it within the navigational buoys.

And you and NMThreeMVP brought some great points of discussion to this thread. I loved reading both of your rebuttals. Keep up the good work.

[DaFranchise80]

You present two options as if those are the only options. I never said the Warriors wouldn't face competition, or that they were significantly better than Rockets, Spurs, or Cavs. I only said they're better. All 3 of those teams will be competitive with the Warriors. The Jazz were not competitive at all with the Warriors.

Blake Griffin is more important to the Clippers, because the Clippers lack the depth that the Jazz do, than Gobert is to the Jazz. This was an even series in a 4/5 seed matchup, before Blake went out. The Jazz needed a Joe Johnson buzzer beater to win game one and loss a closeout game on their home court in game 6 to a team missing an All NBA player. I expect Jazz fans to be fooled and impressed by this, but I'm struggling to see why an objective Pel's fan is.


I understand it's easy to fall back to "they were a 5th seed and made it to the 2nd round" as evidence that their system works. But look beyond their regular season success against non playoff teams (which is why they were a 5th seed), and look historically at the last decade of basketball and the current state of the NBA. You can't win against the best teams with their offense, because they will always outscore you over a 7 game series. When Quin Snyder's teams get into a shootout, the fall apart. They're not much different than Toronto in the East.



Hood is the one they need to make a leap. If he can do it, they'll exceed all my expectations. But I'm not holding my breath at all on Lyles and Favors. In fact, I could see them trying to trade Favors, because I doubt they can resign him next summer.




Be patient. That massive improvement the Jazz saw from year 1 to year 2 of their system was 2 wins. Over Gentry's first 2 years Del has given him zero continuity, but going into year 3 he has the chance to demonstrate whether or not he can make a similar leap in improvement to what the Jazz did in year 3. My bet against the Jazz is obviously somewhat based on the uncertainty of their roster. They have 2 starters and a key contributor off the bench as free agents, and it's Utah. I mean, to be honest, if Hayward were black would anyone assume he's resigning in Utah? The only reason we don't think he's going to play for Spoelstra and Riley in Miami, or his former college coach in Boston, is because he's a white dude. Nothing wrong with that, but I'm trying to be objective! The Jazz jerked him around the last time he was a free agent and Hayward could make more endorsement money if he got out of Utah. This Jazz team has a better chance of losing one of those 3 free agents than they do of getting better, but I wouldn't bet my house either way.

Regardless of what the Jazz do, if the Pelicans get the PG position figured out, I think they'll finish ahead of the Jazz in playoff seeding next year, and be a more a dangerous playoff team.

Stephen A. Smith just co-signed with this statement on First Take this morning. He pretty much stated that Jrue Holiday is a decent PG but he is not the true floor general the Pels need with AD and Boogie. He even went as far as suggesting that CP3 should strongly consider coming back to NOLA but knows that it probably won't happen due to money, market, etc. I would love for the Pels to make a push for Kyle Lowry, dude was quoted as saying that he would consider playing for the Sixers if the situation was right. IMO, i think we have more to offer talent wise than Philly. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what unfolds in the offseason.

[NMThreeMVP]

Stephen A. Smith just co-signed with this statement on First Take this morning. He pretty much stated that Jrue Holiday is a decent PG but he is not the true floor general the Pels need with AD and Boogie. He even went as far as suggesting that CP3 should strongly consider coming back to NOLA but knows that it probably won't happen due to money, market, etc. I would love for the Pels to make a push for Kyle Lowry, dude was quoted as saying that he would consider playing for the Sixers if the situation was right. IMO, i think we have more to offer talent wise than Philly. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what unfolds in the offseason.

Man I miss this thread.

I don't think the Pels can afford Lowry, nor would I want to spend the money on him. What I keep going back to is which former Kentucky PG currently playing for the Suns will Dell go after, and which one would be the best fit. To me, after listening to Gentry and thinking about what has derailed and frustrated this team, it's got to be whichever one has the cleanest medical report.

The big names like CP3 and Lowry are just too costly.

[Imnos 2]

I really want us to be smart with what we do with our pg situation. I really think we could have a shot at Wall in two years. Especially if they don't do more to make the Wiz competitive in the East.

[UNO Gracias]

Stephen A. Smith just co-signed with this statement on First Take this morning. He pretty much stated that Jrue Holiday is a decent PG but he is not the true floor general the Pels need with AD and Boogie. He even went as far as suggesting that CP3 should strongly consider coming back to NOLA but knows that it probably won't happen due to money, market, etc. I would love for the Pels to make a push for Kyle Lowry, dude was quoted as saying that he would consider playing for the Sixers if the situation was right. IMO, i think we have more to offer talent wise than Philly. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what unfolds in the offseason.

Here is he thing though, if the plan is to move Jrue to SG, and bring in a pg to replace him, why bring back Jrue at all? Is he a sg worth $20m+ a year? He is a pg worth $20m, just not in this system.

I too would like to see us make a play for someone at the pg spot who is pass oriented. I wouldn't mind Bledsoe, or Hill. I would love to find a way to land Kemba Walker, that is a guy who is on the bottom end of the top 10 spectrum that would be savage with guys like AD and Boogie around him.

[NMThreeMVP]

Here is he thing though, if the plan is to move Jrue to SG, and bring in a pg to replace him, why bring back Jrue at all? Is he a sg worth $20m+ a year? He is a pg worth $20m, just not in this system.

I too would like to see us make a play for someone at the pg spot who is pass oriented. I wouldn't mind Bledsoe, or Hill. I would love to find a way to land Kemba Walker, that is a guy who is on the bottom end of the top 10 spectrum that would be savage with guys like AD and Boogie around him.

I agree. I think it takes getting a top 3 pick and auctioning it off to get a guy like Kemba. He'd be an All-Star in this system; a legit 3rd guy in a "Big 3".

I just had the hilarious thought of getting the 2nd pick in the draft, trading it for Kemba, and Michael Jordan drafting Lonzo Ball.

Michael Jordan HAS TO draft LaVar Ball's son, right?! I mean, if there's a Mod, I mean God, then that has to happen!

[DefensiveMind]

Here is he thing though, if the plan is to move Jrue to SG, and bring in a pg to replace him, why bring back Jrue at all? Is he a sg worth $20m+ a year? He is a pg worth $20m, just not in this system.

I too would like to see us make a play for someone at the pg spot who is pass oriented. I wouldn't mind Bledsoe, or Hill. I would love to find a way to land Kemba Walker, that is a guy who is on the bottom end of the top 10 spectrum that would be savage with guys like AD and Boogie around him.

You resign Jrue because he's the most talented option you can add as the 4th guy.

Order of events if I'm Dell:

Trade 2018 first for a PG
Resign Jrue or S&T Jrue
Use MLE on steady wing.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[UNO Gracias]

I agree. I think it takes getting a top 3 pick and auctioning it off to get a guy like Kemba. He'd be an All-Star in this system; a legit 3rd guy in a "Big 3".

I just had the hilarious thought of getting the 2nd pick in the draft, trading it for Kemba, and Michael Jordan drafting Lonzo Ball.

Michael Jordan HAS TO draft LaVar Ball's son, right?! I mean, if there's a Mod, I mean God, then that has to happen!

In a larger market Kemba is a year in year out All Star. His small market, and his poor team have him looking like a poor mans CP3 (while CP3 was in New Orleans). I have wanted to get him here for a while (even before we landed Boogie), but I think its a pipe dream.