Advocate reports Demps is returning!!!

[Ogden Park]

I appreciate this clarity. I, too, have the same issues with Ryno and Gordon. How much are you willing to pay Ryno?

Tough question since we still don't know exactly how the market will shake out. His number, for me, is entirely dependent upon who we can get as a wing. That's the domino that needs to fall first (unless we renounce Ryno's rights).

I think our cap space with our 1st rounder and Ryno's hold is about $8.5 mil, which still might be enough to get a decent wing. That's basically Deng, Afflalo, Lee, Crabbe, Dudley, etc territory. Not the most appealing group (and not the worst either), but count me in the contingent that doesn't want Harrison Barnes at $17m per. Batum is frankly the only wing I could stomach paying basically our entire cap space too, so to me if Batum is not an option then Ryno should be re-signed. I do like Bazemore, but his situation might get ridiculous fast.


Ideal semi-realistic number: About 3/$40 or 4/$50ish. If he wants 3/$45 I'd probably do it. 4/$60 I'd have to think long and hard but probably not. Anything over $15m per and I have to walk away. So if Sacramento backs up the truck then so be it. Hope for something in a S&T and thanks for your service.

The current scenarios:
- Re-sign Ryno and use space on B/C-Tier Wing ($6m-$8m per) to rotate with QPon
- Renounce Ryno, sign Batum/Barnes/Bazemore/Parsons and go dumpster diving for a backup PF
- Renounce Ryno and use all of our space on mid-tier guys ($3-$10 mil each) for SF and PF (Crabbe and TJones, for example)

All have their merits for sure. I just want people to be a little more optimistic about what happens if we keep Ryno. Because I know a meltdown would ensue.

[AUSSIE_PELICAN]

Tough question since we still don't know exactly how the market will shake out. His number, for me, is entirely dependent upon who we can get as a wing. That's the domino that needs to fall first (unless we renounce Ryno's rights).

I think our cap space with our 1st rounder and Ryno's hold is about $8.5 mil, which still might be enough to get a decent wing. That's basically Deng, Afflalo, Lee, Crabbe, Dudley, etc territory. Not the most appealing group (and not the worst either), but count me in the contingent that doesn't want Harrison Barnes at $17m per. Batum is frankly the only wing I could stomach paying basically our entire cap space too, so to me if Batum is not an option then Ryno should be re-signed. I do like Bazemore, but his situation might get ridiculous fast.


Ideal semi-realistic number: About 3/$40 or 4/$50ish. If he wants 3/$45 I'd probably do it. 4/$60 I'd have to think long and hard but probably not. Anything over $15m per and I have to walk away. So if Sacramento backs up the truck then so be it. Hope for something in a S&T and thanks for your service.

The current scenarios:
- Re-sign Ryno and use space on B/C-Tier Wing ($6m-$8m per) to rotate with QPon
- Renounce Ryno, sign Batum/Barnes/Bazemore/Parsons and go dumpster diving for a backup PF
- Renounce Ryno and use all of our space on mid-tier guys ($3-$10 mil each) for SF and PF (Crabbe and TJones, for example)

All have their merits for sure. I just want people to be a little more optimistic about what happens if we keep Ryno. Because I know a meltdown would ensue.

Can you enlighten me why Anderson would agree to a sign and trade?
What benefits the other team, the Pelicans or Ryno?

Serious question.

Thanks

[Ogden Park]

Can you enlighten me why Anderson would agree to a sign and trade?
What benefits the other team, the Pelicans or Ryno?

Serious question.,

Thanks

Well to be clear, I don't see it as something likely to happen. And if it does I don't expect a great asset. But its possible, mainly due to the amount Ryno is likely to command.

I think the only team that might want him, that maybe can't sign him outright, is the Raptors. They might want to swap Ross' contract (and overlap with Demar after they pay him a zillion) in the process. Is this something we'd want? Maybe, but its at least within the realm of possibility.

The Kings will have the space, but perhaps they want to use it as an opportunity to get rid of Gay, Bellinelli or even McLemore (to avoid the inevitable overpay next year). If they are going to have to overpay Ryno to entice him, maybe they want to clear someone else. Not saying we would want these guys, just that they are conceivable options if the Kings try and change direction a bit.


As free agency plays out, cap space will get eaten up and other possibilities may arise. There is always the unknown factor of a Cleveland, Golden St, LAC or another capped out contender wanting to make a splash too. FA is a wild time and I've learned, particularly from when we S&T for Ryno in the first place, to expect the unexpected.

[AUSSIE_PELICAN]

Well to be clear, I don't see it as something likely to happen. And if it does I don't expect a great asset. But its possible, mainly due to the amount Ryno is likely to command.

I think the only team that might want him, that maybe can't sign him outright, is the Raptors. They might want to swap Ross' contract (and overlap with Demar after they pay him a zillion) in the process. Is this something we'd want? Maybe, but its at least within the realm of possibility.

The Kings will have the space, but perhaps they want to use it as an opportunity to get rid of Gay, Bellinelli or even McLemore (to avoid the inevitable overpay next year). If they are going to have to overpay Ryno to entice him, maybe they want to clear someone else. Not saying we would want these guys, just that they are conceivable options if the Kings try and change direction a bit.


As free agency plays out, cap space will get eaten up and other possibilities may arise. There is always the unknown factor of a Cleveland, Golden St, LAC or another capped out contender wanting to make a splash too. FA is a wild time and I've learned, particularly from when we S&T for Ryno in the first place, to expect the unexpected.

[pawel]

FA will be crazy this year because of shorter moratorium period...
There will be dumb overpayings...

I will personally strike on my B-C level players at the start of FA (2 players). Use the cap for extending Frazier and Ennis and then do something with Ryno.
15-16 a year makes him tradable asset.

But everybody knows that Divac will give him Max on 1st July..

[Mythrol]

I never said Holiday or Evans were bad players. You do this every time and for what reason I have no idea. Posting stats about what guys do is great and informative and Ogden gets credit for his time and effort posting what he's posted. However it's not all telling. Evans and Holiday mins on the court together may be padded by playing against the other teams end of the bench players. Does those stats tell you that? Not the ones he posted. When you acquire veterans(even young ones) you expect to see immediate results. If Holiday and Evans are core members of a team and that combo doesn't equal to wins then really nothing else matters.

So it's not fair to use stats to quantify how good players play together because it might be against "end of bench players" but it's fair to judge off of Ws & Ls without taking into account the massive amount of injuries we've sustained?

Are not all players stats padded by playing against some end of bench players? The stat is equally effective because we are not looking at them in a vacuum but comparing their +/- together against others on this team and across the NBA. There is variance no matter who you look at. When the only options are, look at stats or believe a random fans "eye test" I'm taking the stats every single day of the week. Of course the best option is to have a very skilled person able to subjectively review game film and combine his analysis with what the stats say but with Synergy being unavailable for fans now, I am not aware of a way to do this without being on a team or possibly a writer. And yes, in the past I used to subscribe to synergy and watch every single possession for players.

You're point has continually shifted throughout this thread. It has went from Jrue is bad off ball, to we overpaid for Jrue to play off ball, to Jrue and Evans are bad together, to now what...Ws & Ls are the deciding factor in evaluations? I made the comment I did because that's about as serious as I could take your statement.

[da ThRONe]

So it's not fair to use stats to quantify how good players play together because it might be against "end of bench players" but it's fair to judge off of Ws & Ls without taking into account the massive amount of injuries we've sustained?

The question is what are the win/lose record when the two are sharing the court not the team record for the whole year. And yes W's and L's are the stats that matter when it's all said and done.

Are not all players stats padded by playing against some end of bench players? The stat is equally effective because we are not looking at them in a vacuum but comparing their +/- together against others on this team and across the NBA. There is variance no matter who you look at. When the only options are, look at stats or believe a random fans "eye test" I'm taking the stats every single day of the week. Of course the best option is to have a very skilled person able to subjectively review game film and combine his analysis with what the stats say but with Synergy being unavailable for fans now, I am not aware of a way to do this without being on a team or possibly a writer. And yes, in the past I used to subscribe to synergy and watch every single possession for players.

You are simply saying the same thing I'm saying. Stats are good, but are flawed. Yet when I say it you want to argue. And I had Synergy and I've done the same watching all some players possession.

You're point has continually shifted throughout this thread. It has went from Jrue is bad off ball, to we overpaid for Jrue to play off ball, to Jrue and Evans are bad together, to now what...Ws & Ls are the deciding factor in evaluations? I made the comment I did because that's about as serious as I could take your statement.

And here we have you making things up out of thin air. I haven't once said Holiday is bad off ball. The whole discussion is merely 4-6 pages go back and find me my quote saying Jrue is bad off ball. I said Evans and Holiday greatest skill set overlaps therefore they are redundant together. I question the stats shown. I say what's most important are the W/L record when they play together and what are the win % of those team. Like always you confuse disagreeing with information added to the discussion with shifting my point.

[GuardianAngel25]

What I want to know is how in the world is having two ball handlers on the floor at the same time a bad thing? Especially when one is very capable of playing off ball? Just about every team contending has two ball handlers on the floor at all times even sacrificing lots of size to do so. Your whole argument makes no sense and is being proven wrong by just about every team.

[Mythrol]

Going back and reading this thread is hilarious.

"Drew Brees has been in decline the past 2 years."
"No he hasn't, he had one of his best years ever last year."
"Oh yeah well how many playoff games have we been to."

Fast forward to:

"A backcourt of Jrue and Evans is a disaster."
"No they aren't. They're actually really good together."
"Oh yeah well how many games have they won?"

LOL. I think there's a pattern here.

Maybe, just maybe, and I know this is a long shot but... Maybe there is a reason these are called team sports. You CAN have individual good players and still not have a lot of wins due to other issues, like a historically bad defense or a historically bad injury spree.

[da ThRONe]

Going back and reading this thread is hilarious.

"Drew Brees has been in decline the past 2 years."
"No he hasn't, he had one of his best years ever last year."
"Oh yeah well how many playoff games have we been to."

Fast forward to:

"A backcourt of Jrue and Evans is a disaster."
"No they aren't. They're actually really good together."
"Oh yeah well how many games have they won?"

LOL. I think there's a pattern here.

Maybe, just maybe, and I know this is a long shot but... Maybe there is a reason these are called team sports. You CAN have individual good players and still not have a lot of wins due to other issues, like a historically bad defense or a historically bad injury spree.

It's sad how poor your comprehension skills are. You are paraphrasing and passing it off as direct quotes. If you read what I actually wrote instead of trying to take away what you want from what I wrote these dust ups wouldn't happen.

[da ThRONe]

What I want to know is how in the world is having two ball handlers on the floor at the same time a bad thing? Especially when one is very capable of playing off ball? Just about every team contending has two ball handlers on the floor at all times even sacrificing lots of size to do so. Your whole argument makes no sense and is being proven wrong by just about every team.

Again people are assuming things that were never said. It's not bad the problem is if Jrue is going to be your "Robin" to Davis' "Batman" then you need him playing to his greatest strength. That greatest strength requires him to have the ball. Tyreke has not been effective off ball the vast majority of his career. Thus forcing Holiday to play off ball because he's capable of doing so. If Evans can become a quality shooter then that pairing of Holiday/Evans can be effective enough to make deep playoff runs. Right now that pairing leaves Holiday underutilized. I don't think we can afford to underutilized players and expect to win many playoff series.

If you don't understand now there's really no point continuing.

[Ogden Park]

Again people are assuming things that were never said. It's not bad the problem is if Jrue is going to be your "Robin" to Davis' "Batman" then you need him playing to his greatest strength. That greatest strength requires him to have the ball. Tyreke has not been effective off ball the vast majority of his career. Thus forcing Holiday to play off ball because he's capable of doing so. If Evans can become a quality shooter then that pairing of Holiday/Evans can be effective enough to make deep playoff runs. Right now that pairing leaves Holiday underutilized. I don't think we can afford to underutilized players and expect to win many playoff series.

If you don't understand now there's really no point continuing.

I think the issue some of us are having with your reasoning is that you seem to be making the assumption these two guys share the court for all of their minutes. The reason I shared the cap data was to show how they are complimentary with their salaries and cap hits. 23% of the cap on 2 guards that can rotate around another 2 guard AND play together is how you should think about it. Its not like a Wall and Beal situation where you have a backcourt that HAS to play together at all times basically. Quite the opposite really.

In 14-15 Monty had them around 25 mpg together. If you get this down to at most 20 mpg I think you'd be really maximizing their strengths, and spreading what they each do best to the team as a whole. When I look at the data I see rotations next year that should have Tyreke coming off the bench. Yeah, yeah he doesn't like it. Tough, its best for the team. Jrue coming off the bench is a complete waste of his talent and ability to build with AD, and if Gentry pulls it again he should be fired for that alone.


And again, as the data shows, a 5 man rotation finishing the game in the 4th quarter with Jrue and Tyreke as your guards can be a VERY effective unit. Try to think about the 2 of them and their effect on the team in a more holistic sense, not just in this narrow definition of why their skill sets overlap. If they are used correctly that overlap can be a good thing. Coaching and rotations are the variables we should be focused on, not their overlapping skill sets.

Remember, we haven't seen this team and this backcourt share the floor with a truly above average, floor spacing wing. Look at the types of numbers they put up with a plus floor spacer next to them:

13-14:

Anderson,Ryan - Evans,Tyreke - Holiday,Jrue

Off Rtg: 122.7
Def Rtg: 109.9
Net: +12.7

Evans,Tyreke - Holiday,Jrue - Roberts,Brian

Off Rtg: 118.6
Def Rtg: 89.2
Net: +29.4

14-15:

Anderson,Ryan - Evans,Tyreke - Holiday,Jrue

Off Rtg: 117.9
Def Rtg: 110.3
Net: +7.6

Evans,Tyreke - Gordon,Eric - Holiday,Jrue

Off Rtg: 114.2
Def Rtg: 106.6
Net: +7.6

15-16

Evans,Tyreke - Gordon,Eric - Holiday,Jrue

Off Rtg: 111.3
Def Rtg: 101.1
Net: +10.2

Also, one more thing. We were 9-9 (hey not bad!) last year in games that AD, Jrue and Tyreke all played in. Here was what they looked like, with Jrue and Reke still dinged up in a new system:

Davis,Anthony - Evans,Tyreke - Holiday,Jrue

Off Rtg: 117.4
Def Rtg: 93.9
Net: +23.5
Overall (+/-): +4.5 (#1 overall for 3 man on team for the season)

You are really underestimating how effective these 2 guys can be in the same backcourt with the right personnel around them.

[Kurgan]

Going back and reading this thread is hilarious.

"Drew Brees has been in decline the past 2 years."
"No he hasn't, he had one of his best years ever last year."
"Oh yeah well how many playoff games have we been to."

Fast forward to:

"A backcourt of Jrue and Evans is a disaster."
"No they aren't. They're actually really good together."
"Oh yeah well how many games have they won?"

LOL. I think there's a pattern here.

Maybe, just maybe, and I know this is a long shot but... Maybe there is a reason these are called team sports. You CAN have individual good players and still not have a lot of wins due to other issues, like a historically bad defense or a historically bad injury spree.

Add pitiful coaching and a god-awful drafting and the saints part is complete

[da ThRONe]

I think the issue some of us are having with your reasoning is that you seem to be making the assumption these two guys share the court for all of their minutes. The reason I shared the cap data was to show how they are complimentary with their salaries and cap hits. 23% of the cap on 2 guards that can rotate around another 2 guard AND play together is how you should think about it. Its not like a Wall and Beal situation where you have a backcourt that HAS to play together at all times basically. Quite the opposite really.

In 14-15 Monty had them around 25 mpg together. If you get this down to at most 20 mpg I think you'd be really maximizing their strengths, and spreading what they each do best to the team as a whole. When I look at the data I see rotations next year that should have Tyreke coming off the bench. Yeah, yeah he doesn't like it. Tough, its best for the team. Jrue coming off the bench is a complete waste of his talent and ability to build with AD, and if Gentry pulls it again he should be fired for that alone.


And again, as the data shows, a 5 man rotation finishing the game in the 4th quarter with Jrue and Tyreke as your guards can be a VERY effective unit. Try to think about the 2 of them and their effect on the team in a more holistic sense, not just in this narrow definition of why their skill sets overlap. If they are used correctly that overlap can be a good thing. Coaching and rotations are the variables we should be focused on, not their overlapping skill sets.

Remember, we haven't seen this team and this backcourt share the floor with a truly above average, floor spacing wing. Look at the types of numbers they put up with a plus floor spacer next to them:

13-14:

Anderson,Ryan - Evans,Tyreke - Holiday,Jrue

Off Rtg: 122.7
Def Rtg: 109.9
Net: +12.7

Evans,Tyreke - Holiday,Jrue - Roberts,Brian

Off Rtg: 118.6
Def Rtg: 89.2
Net: +29.4

14-15:

Anderson,Ryan - Evans,Tyreke - Holiday,Jrue

Off Rtg: 117.9
Def Rtg: 110.3
Net: +7.6

Evans,Tyreke - Gordon,Eric - Holiday,Jrue

Off Rtg: 114.2
Def Rtg: 106.6
Net: +7.6

15-16

Evans,Tyreke - Gordon,Eric - Holiday,Jrue

Off Rtg: 111.3
Def Rtg: 101.1
Net: +10.2

Also, one more thing. We were 9-9 (hey not bad!) last year in games that AD, Jrue and Tyreke all played in. Here was what they looked like, with Jrue and Reke still dinged up in a new system:

Davis,Anthony - Evans,Tyreke - Holiday,Jrue

Off Rtg: 117.4
Def Rtg: 93.9
Net: +23.5
Overall (+/-): +4.5 (#1 overall for 3 man on team for the season)

You are really underestimating how effective these 2 guys can be in the same backcourt with the right personnel around them.

This is a legit argument and I agree that it's best limiting their mins together. I'm thinking about the playoffs when rotations shorten though. But all in all your input into this thread has been very informative. Thank you.

[AUSSIE_PELICAN]

I think the issue some of us are having with your reasoning is that you seem to be making the assumption these two guys share the court for all of their minutes. The reason I shared the cap data was to show how they are complimentary with their salaries and cap hits. 23% of the cap on 2 guards that can rotate around another 2 guard AND play together is how you should think about it. Its not like a Wall and Beal situation where you have a backcourt that HAS to play together at all times basically. Quite the opposite really.

In 14-15 Monty had them around 25 mpg together. If you get this down to at most 20 mpg I think you'd be really maximizing their strengths, and spreading what they each do best to the team as a whole. When I look at the data I see rotations next year that should have Tyreke coming off the bench. Yeah, yeah he doesn't like it. Tough, its best for the team. Jrue coming off the bench is a complete waste of his talent and ability to build with AD, and if Gentry pulls it again he should be fired for that alone.


And again, as the data shows, a 5 man rotation finishing the game in the 4th quarter with Jrue and Tyreke as your guards can be a VERY effective unit. Try to think about the 2 of them and their effect on the team in a more holistic sense, not just in this narrow definition of why their skill sets overlap. If they are used correctly that overlap can be a good thing. Coaching and rotations are the variables we should be focused on, not their overlapping skill sets.

Remember, we haven't seen this team and this backcourt share the floor with a truly above average, floor spacing wing. Look at the types of numbers they put up with a plus floor spacer next to them:

13-14:

Anderson,Ryan - Evans,Tyreke - Holiday,Jrue

Off Rtg: 122.7
Def Rtg: 109.9
Net: +12.7

Evans,Tyreke - Holiday,Jrue - Roberts,Brian

Off Rtg: 118.6
Def Rtg: 89.2
Net: +29.4

14-15:

Anderson,Ryan - Evans,Tyreke - Holiday,Jrue

Off Rtg: 117.9
Def Rtg: 110.3
Net: +7.6

Evans,Tyreke - Gordon,Eric - Holiday,Jrue

Off Rtg: 114.2
Def Rtg: 106.6
Net: +7.6

15-16

Evans,Tyreke - Gordon,Eric - Holiday,Jrue

Off Rtg: 111.3
Def Rtg: 101.1
Net: +10.2

Also, one more thing. We were 9-9 (hey not bad!) last year in games that AD, Jrue and Tyreke all played in. Here was what they looked like, with Jrue and Reke still dinged up in a new system:

Davis,Anthony - Evans,Tyreke - Holiday,Jrue

Off Rtg: 117.4
Def Rtg: 93.9
Net: +23.5
Overall (+/-): +4.5 (#1 overall for 3 man on team for the season)

You are really underestimating how effective these 2 guys can be in the same backcourt with the right personnel around them.

What website has these stats?
I couldn't even find a defensive stat for Drummond v Whiteside.

[Mythrol]

You are paraphrasing and passing it off as direct quotes.

Oh sorry. Yes, that must be it. Here, let me just leave the quotes then.

Brees had been declining the previous 2 years.

And that lead to how many playoff appearances the last two years?

I would add acquiring both Holiday and Evans as a disaster as well. To invest that kind of money into players that don't fit each other was equally as bad as re-signing Asik or matching Gordon's contract.

The most important stat hasn't even been posted and that's W's and L's.

You've had a cool story bro but I'm finished with this. Have a great day.

[Ogden Park]

What website has these stats?
I couldn't even find a defensive stat for Drummond v Whiteside.

NBA.com is where I've been getting the lineup stuff. Really interesting to play around with, and quite a few eye opening stats with regards to our lineups over the last few years.

http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612...eups/advanced/

That link should take you to the Pelicans lineups page. You can adjust for just about anything. Click the wheel widget on the right to change the settings.

[AUSSIE_PELICAN]

NBA.com is where I've been getting the lineup stuff. Really interesting to play around with, and quite a few eye opening stats with regards to our lineups over the last few years.

http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612...eups/advanced/

That link should take you to the Pelicans lineups page. You can adjust for just about anything. Click the wheel widget on the right to change the settings.

Thank you.

[da ThRONe]

Oh sorry. Yes, that must be it. Here, let me just leave the quotes then.



You've had a cool story bro but I'm finished with this. Have a great day.

Yet you have failed to show where I changed my stance. You just posted random quotes none of which conflicts with the other. But do have a great day none the less.

[Blattman]

To be back to the topic, what is really bothering me right now in this situation is the time needed to make a decision. It's clearly bush league level to not give any indication on what you're envisionning right now. Either they want him gone or not, that's simple.

I'm pretty sure they are really high on Dell and they don't know what to do know that they see the public backlash on his returning. It shows either lack of courage and ability to take your responbility by saying he's the guy they want or just complete lack of knowledge of the situation, because they needed polls to realize that he wasn't the good GM. And I don't see how to wait for lottery results may help.

Right now we are in a situation where agents from draft pospect speak to a GM that may not last 10 days, I can't see a worst situation. Either Dell is leaving and so they should install his replacement really fast to let him select the drafted player, either he's staying and they should say it loud and clear.

For my part, I don't think he's a good GM and in a league where there's only one champion you need at least top 10 guy at this job. So I'm still waiting to see if the ownership has the gut and the intelligence to move in the right direction to consider my future as pelican fan.

[pawel]

I do not expect the conference of Dell/Mickey.
Dell is under contract so any conferences means that he is going to be fired...

There is no need to have a 'vote of confidence conference' one month after the season.

I except some public statement after the lottery. If we will grab top-3 pick than Dell will for sure announce his draft plans...

[Champ]

The derby has come and gone. Dell still employed!

[pawel]

Nothing official from Pels yet, but I'm hearing GM Dell Demps and FO members expected to attend this week's draft combine in Chicago.

— Justin Verrier (@JustinVerrier) 10th May 2016

like it or not - Dell and other FO members are in the combine

so there is a high probability that dell will be selecting draft players
which means that he rather stays

and because of a timing - close to the draft - it is not a bad thing...

[DroopyDawg]

Dell ain't going anywhere. Not this offseason anyway.