Would you trade Jrue Holiday for Ty Lawson?

[UNO Gracias]

NO, you know that if there was a league wide redraft AD would go first, and Jrue would go second (with Reke being taken at 3, right before LBJ).

[N.O.Bronco]

i think curry is a fine defender and has improved that part of his game, but I don't think he is on Jrue's level. The only player besides Jrue that I have seen harass and give people like Kyrie, Rose, Wall and players of that nature problems is patrick beverly. Avery bradley and Bledsoe are pretty darn good too. But jrue's footwork and ability to stay in front of people is elite, don't care what anyone says. People saying it didn't look like it this year, well he was playing on a bum leg.

Ok, now can you substantiate this with any hard evidence? Soft evidence? Any objective evidence? I can assert a bunch of stuff about Curry's defensive IQ and ability to play his man and his ability to play within a scheme and we have gotten nowhere further to actually objectively proving anything.

I can say the sky is one color and you can say it is another. But what actually proves any point is the facts and evidence to support it.

So like I put to Guardian, where are those facts? I posted 4 metrics from different mathematical formulas, with different statistical assumptions, all well regarded by experts in the field and all of them put Curry as the superior defender this season. And over the course of their careers they give the nod to Curry. So this idea that Curry is this vastly inferior defender to Jrue is preposterous. If we look at the league as a whole the metrics also show Jrue is not in the top of the pile like others are asserting as well.

[UptownFuz504]

NO, you know that if there was a league wide redraft AD would go first, and Jrue would go second (with Reke being taken at 3, right before LBJ).

That's how I would re-draft it. Sounds about right to me.

[Bongzilla]

Bronco, you are fighting a battle you cannot win. We might as well be talking politics.

People on this forum read an article once that stated Jrue was a great defender. It might as well be gospel now......facts are irrelevant.

My stance is quite simple, If he was as good as fans on this forum believe, he would have received some accolades for being a great defender.

We APPARENTLY have an ELITE defender, who has never received a single defensive team vote.

It is probably this giant conspiracy where everyone actually KNOWS that Jrue is ELITE already, so no need to vote for him at all.

/tinfoil hat

Guys, it really is this simple -- Elite defenders make at least one of the All-Defensive teams AT LEAST ONCE IN THEIR CAREER.

How can ANYONE logically disagree with this?

[UptownFuz504]

Jrue is majorly overrated as a player in general around here. I think that he's better than average but the accolades that he receives are outrageous. I'll put it in perspective. People hate on Lebron's accolades because he plays in the East (that's idiocy by the way) but then will lean on the fact that Jrue was an all-star in the same Eastern conference. That makes no sense to me. Before all of the no one here said that posts, I'm speaking in generalities. IMO, Jrue was a default all-star because they had to put somebody in. Back on topic. Jrue's defensive prowess is exaggerated. I read a thousand times that if Jrue played, Westbrook would not have roasted us because Jrue played him well once. Give me a break. It reminds me when people thought Rivers was the Kobe stopper because Kobe had a bad game.

[i am cow lolz]

Jrue is majorly overrated as a player in general around here. I think that he's better than average but the accolades that he receives are outrageous. I'll put it in perspective. People hate on Lebron's accolades because he plays in the East (that's idiocy by the way) but then will lean on the fact that Jrue was an all-star in the same Eastern conference. That makes no sense to me. Before all of the no one here said that posts, I'm speaking in generalities. IMO, Jrue was a default all-star because they had to put somebody in. Back on topic. Jrue's defensive prowess is exaggerated. I read a thousand times that if Jrue played, Westbrook would not have roasted us because Jrue played him well once. Give me a break. It reminds me when people thought Rivers was the Kobe stopper because Kobe had a bad game.

What a stupid, stupid post. jrue has had an very good to elite defender reputation for 3-4 years now. You act like the game vs westbrook was the only good defensive game he's had. Joke.

This video is from 2011. 20 AND 11!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2f3-f71UeLA

[i am cow lolz]

Bronco, you are fighting a battle you cannot win. We might as well be talking politics.

People on this forum read an article once that stated Jrue was a great defender. It might as well be gospel now......facts are irrelevant.

My stance is quite simple, If he was as good as fans on this forum believe, he would have received some accolades for being a great defender.

We APPARENTLY have an ELITE defender, who has never received a single defensive team vote.

It is probably this giant conspiracy where everyone actually KNOWS that Jrue is ELITE already, so no need to vote for him at all.

/tinfoil hat

Guys, it really is this simple -- Elite defenders make at least one of the All-Defensive teams AT LEAST ONCE IN THEIR CAREER.

How can ANYONE logically disagree with this?

Yea I'm going to trust the people who put Kobe on the all defensive FIRST team in 12/13 to tell me who's an elite defender or not...

[Mythrol]

The argument is simple. Jrue is asked to guard the best perimeter player on the other team. Curry is HID behind Clay and sometimes Draymond on defense.

You can't compare their numbers because defense is much more about the team. Jrue could do everything right and force his guy inside but if Tyreke is the player who is suppose to switch and pick up the guy but doesn't is it Jrue's fault if the guy scores?

The closest we could possibly do is check how they did in the playoffs in which they played against each other. Jrue broke even with a defensive +/- of 0.0. Compared to Curry at -0.9. However even this is pretty useless since defense is so hard to measure with the publicly available stats.

So what's the best way to determine how good of a defender a player is? How does the coach use them. Curry is hidden. Jrue is asked to take on the hardest challenge every game he plays.

[Caffeinedisastr]

I'd rather have the guy that fought on a mediocre 76ers roster
than a guy with a better roster who gives up on his coach and season 1/2 way through.

Character matters a lot to me......

.......also defense....
defense means a lot.

[N.O.Bronco]

The argument is simple. Jrue is asked to guard the best perimeter player on the other team. Curry is HID behind Clay and sometimes Draymond on defense.

You can't compare their numbers because defense is much more about the team. Jrue could do everything right and force his guy inside but if Tyreke is the player who is suppose to switch and pick up the guy but doesn't is it Jrue's fault if the guy scores?

The closest we could possibly do is check how they did in the playoffs in which they played against each other. Jrue broke even with a defensive +/- of 0.0. Compared to Curry at -0.9. However even this is pretty useless since defense is so hard to measure with the publicly available stats.

So what's the best way to determine how good of a defender a player is? How does the coach use them. Curry is hidden. Jrue is asked to take on the hardest challenge every game he plays.

"But there was always a caveat. As in, he didn't have to defend his position. I think if you want to be the best, and he wants to be the best, you have to do both things."

So two weeks after his hire, Kerr spoke to Curry over lunch in the Bay Area and explained that the team's practice of hiding their top scorer on defense was over.

Curry would have to D up.

, Curry has blossomed to become one of the NBA's most effective defenders -- ranking fifth among point guards in defensive real plus-minus. According to Synergy Sports, the opponents he guards have shot just 36.8 percent on the season. He's averaging a career high in steals and a career low in fouls.

He's even frustrating top-caliber opponents. Who knew that the stronger-looking Russell Westbrook struggled with Curry defending him this season? In three games against Curry, Westbrook shot far below his averages, at 32.9 percent from the field and 26.3 percent from deep.

According to the numbers, Curry positively impacts the Warriors' defensive efficiency more than any of his backcourt teammates -- yes, even Klay Thompson

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/12...light-defender

They are not hiding him. He is good. Very good. He combines his athleticism, high IQ and focus combined with good chemistry and understanding of the defensive system and his teammates to maximize his abilities.

To me the fact that Curry can do this should be making people excited to see what an actual good defensive system and coaching could do for Jrue, who, by all means has the capacity to be the best defensive PG in this league if he puts in the work and gains better consistency and chemistry. Thibs, Van Gundy and Atkinson would all take him to that level IMO. Some of the others I am less sure of.

As for Jrue, we played pretty straightforward when Gordon and Evans were on the floor with him. We weren't putting Jrue on SF's. Monty had a lot of trust in Gordon. So assignments tended to play out position to position with the usual switches our team used.