.
Pelicans Report
 
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 60

Thread: Would you trade Jrue Holiday for Ty Lawson?

  1. #26
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Posts
    1,283
    Lawson has a gear that we need against the best.

  2. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by GuardianAngel25 View Post
    Yup the Rose tented glasses. I'm sure you have clear ones on and I'm sure you also watched enough of Beverly, Conley, and Curry to get this opinion of yours. Curry is definitely not a better defender than Holiday. More steals does not mean someone is a better defender sorry. Holiday mite get scored on some game but I have seen Cp3 get torched also. He is in the top tier of defensive PGs but I'll keep my rumored glasses but make sure you never wear them.
    I actually agree with Bronco on this one, Curry is a better defender than Jrue this year. No #, just eye test.

  3. #28
    Unstoppable! GuardianAngel25's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    NOLA
    Posts
    8,338
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueJay View Post
    I actually agree with Bronco on this one, Curry is a better defender than Jrue this year. No #, just eye test.
    Eye test? Honestly how many games did you see Curry play to get this eye test? Jrue played half a season also. I know I won't get a truthful answer but I guarantee you didn't see 10 regular season Warriors games. I watched atleast half with that being my 2nd favorite team and Curry is definitely not a better defender than Holiday. He is a good one and great at getting steals but no way is he a better overal defender.

  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco View Post
    i feel like the offseason always brings out the rose tinted glasses here.

    Jrue was a streaky defender at best last year. He had moments that made you turn your head and then performances that left you scratching your head. In terms of consistency he is below CP3 by a good margin, Conley also ranks above him, as does Beverly and Curry. By most metrics Holiday is slightly above average overall for his position.

    You are what your performances say you are and right now he is a guy that has the potential to be among the best but hasn't put it together consistently.

    With the right coach I think he can certainly take that next leap. Thibs, Van Gundy or Atkinson would all probably turn him into the player we think he can be. But until then let's not re-write history.
    Curry a better defender than jrue?????? Bahahahahaha thank u I needed that

  5. #30
    A Soulful Sports Fan Contributor Eman5805's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    29,859
    Out of sight, out of mind is going on strong, I see.

  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Eman5805 View Post
    Out of sight, out of mind is going on strong, I see.
    Happens every year.

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by GuardianAngel25 View Post
    Yup the Rose tented glasses. I'm sure you have clear ones on and I'm sure you also watched enough of Beverly, Conley, and Curry to get this opinion of yours. Curry is definitely not a better defender than Holiday. More steals does not mean someone is a better defender sorry. Holiday mite get scored on some game but I have seen Cp3 get torched also. He is in the top tier of defensive PGs but I'll keep my rumored glasses but make sure you never wear them.
    Quote Originally Posted by HornetGuru View Post
    Curry a better defender than jrue?????? Bahahahahaha thank u I needed that
    Lets see Curry

    BBAll Reference: 101 Def Rating(lower is better)
    NBA.com: 97 Def Rating.
    Defensive Real +/-: 1.69(4th in the league, higher is better)

    Jrue:

    BBALL Reference: 107
    NBA.com:105
    Defensive Real +/-: .79

    Curry really turned it up defensively this year and if we really want to play this game we can tit for tat the game day threads where people were complaining about Jrue taking quarters and games off defensively and whether Asik or our guards were more to blame for our poor rim protection. I actually did a little statistical breakdown on our guards poor defense making Asik look worse then he is at protecting the rim.

    Now, back to my point. Jrue has the potential and the measurables to be great. With the right discipline and system he can and should become a consistent elite defender. But his time in New Orleans he has not been one consistently.

  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco View Post
    Lets see Curry

    BBAll Reference: 101 Def Rating(lower is better)
    NBA.com: 97 Def Rating.
    Defensive Real +/-: 1.69(4th in the league, higher is better)

    Jrue:

    BBALL Reference: 107
    NBA.com:105
    Defensive Real +/-: .79

    Curry really turned it up defensively this year and if we really want to play this game we can tit for tat the game day threads where people were complaining about Jrue taking quarters and games off defensively and whether Asik or our guards were more to blame for our poor rim protection. I actually did a little statistical breakdown on our guards poor defense making Asik look worse then he is at protecting the rim.

    Now, back to my point. Jrue has the potential and the measurables to be great. With the right discipline and system he can and should become a consistent elite defender. But his time in New Orleans he has not been one consistently.
    Some of the elite defensive PGs you mentioned dont have good defensive real +/-. Conley is 24th and PBev is 22nd.

    And DRtgs are largely dependent on the team. Al Jefferson and Luis Scola are both in the top 20.

  9. #34
    Unstoppable! GuardianAngel25's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    NOLA
    Posts
    8,338
    Quote Originally Posted by i am cow lolz View Post
    Some of the elite defensive PGs you mentioned dont have good defensive real +/-. Conley is 24th and PBev is 22nd.

    And DRtgs are largely dependent on the team. Al Jefferson and Luis Scola are both in the top 20.
    Haha thank you for not making me have to go find these stupid stats.

  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by i am cow lolz View Post
    Some of the elite defensive PGs you mentioned dont have good defensive real +/-. Conley is 24th and PBev is 22nd.

    And DRtgs are largely dependent on the team. Al Jefferson and Luis Scola are both in the top 20.
    No defensive metrics are perfect, that is why I didn't lean on any one metric. It is also why I further added to my post my own observations.

    Let me add another one, DFG%: the % of the shooter the player is defending.

    Curry: 40%
    Jrue:43%

    Im looking for something that makes this notion that Curry was a superior defender this season so laughable, but I guess the argument against me is basically empty because no one has offered much so far. The only metric I found in Jrues favor was the overall FG% of the shooter the player guarded most. Where they broke even at 43%. But with so much switching and such on both teams it is a worse metric then DFG% to me. Which focuses only on the shots each player was actively defending their primary match up.

    I mean we can go to the eye test but the eye test shows that Jrue took games and quarters off plenty of games since coming here. His consistency has been anything but consistent. When he is on he is arguably as god as anyone but he isn't always on.
    Last edited by N.O.Bronco; 05-25-2015 at 09:53 PM.

  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by GuardianAngel25 View Post
    Haha thank you for not making me have to go find these stupid stats.
    At this point you might just want to take the L and move on.

    Merely saying someone is better means jack all if you can't support it.

    Where is your supporting evidence?

  12. #37
    Unstoppable! GuardianAngel25's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    NOLA
    Posts
    8,338
    Quote Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco View Post
    Lets see Curry

    BBAll Reference: 101 Def Rating(lower is better)
    NBA.com: 97 Def Rating.
    Defensive Real +/-: 1.69(4th in the league, higher is better)

    Jrue:

    BBALL Reference: 107
    NBA.com:105
    Defensive Real +/-: .79

    Curry really turned it up defensively this year and if we really want to play this game we can tit for tat the game day threads where people were complaining about Jrue taking quarters and games off defensively and whether Asik or our guards were more to blame for our poor rim protection. I actually did a little statistical breakdown on our guards poor defense making Asik look worse then he is at protecting the rim.

    Now, back to my point. Jrue has the potential and the measurables to be great. With the right discipline and system he can and should become a consistent elite defender. But his time in New Orleans he has not been one consistently.
    You must have rose colored glasses on when it comes to Holiday. Like the guy said Conley and Beverly who you consider elite are near last amongst starting PGs using the stats. You can't use these to make your point for one guy then not for the others. Stuff like this never tells the full story on a player like many stats don't. Curry improved a lot defensively and is a good defensive PG. he is definitely not an elite one and he is definitely not better than Holiday. Like I said Holiday is definitely in the top tier of defensive PGs and I have seen many great basketball minds say the same also. Doug Collins called him one of the best defensive PGs he has seen in a long time with how versatile he is being able to guard both guard positions and even lock down some SFs. So do these stats back up you stating that Conley and Beverly are in the elite above Holiday?

  13. #38
    Unstoppable! GuardianAngel25's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    NOLA
    Posts
    8,338
    Quote Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco View Post
    At this point you might just want to take the L and move on.

    Merely saying someone is better means jack all if you can't support it.

    Where is your supporting evidence?

    Haha take the L? I'm not trying to win anything but it seems like your feelings are a little hurt now that someone has called you out. You try to justify how much better Curry is because of these stats you are using yet the same guys in Conley and Beverly you are saying are elite have terrible stats. Like I said you can't use these to make your point on 1 guy then go discredit them regarding someone else. I will take the L though to make you feel better. I know it must suck to throw out stuff to prove your point and have it thrown right back for you to backtrack and say no defensive metrics are not perfect that's why you didn't lean on one. Yet you did lean on them but only to prove it for Curry just not your other guys hah. You win congrats!
    Last edited by GuardianAngel25; 05-25-2015 at 09:58 PM.

  14. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by GuardianAngel25 View Post
    You must have rose colored glasses on when it comes to Holiday. Like the guy said Conley and Beverly who you consider elite are near last amongst starting PGs using the stats. You can't use these to make your point for one guy then not for the others. Stuff like this never tells the full story on a player like many stats don't. Curry improved a lot defensively and is a good defensive PG. he is definitely not an elite one and he is definitely not better than Holiday. Like I said Holiday is definitely in the top tier of defensive PGs and I have seen many great basketball minds say the same also. Doug Collins called him one of the best defensive PGs he has seen in a long time with how versatile he is being able to guard both guard positions and even lock down some SFs. So do these stats back up you stating that Conley and Beverly are in the elite above Holiday?
    Where is your substance?

    I provided now 4 metrics that while flawed are all well respected, Def. Rating is considered industry standard and seems to always be used around here but now when it doesnt make Jrue look good we have to dismiss it.

    Cognitive dissonance distilled.

  15. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by GuardianAngel25 View Post
    Haha take the L? I'm not trying to win anything but it seems like your feelings are a little hurt now that someone has called you out. You try to justify how much better Curry is because of these stats you are using yet the same guys in Conley and Beverly you are saying are elite have terrible stats. Like I said you can't use these to make your point on 1 guy then go discredit them regarding someone else. I will take the L though to make you feel better. I know it must suck to throw out stuff to prove your point and have it thrown right back for you to backtrack and say no defensive metrics are not perfect that's why you didn't lean on one. Yet you did lean on them but only to prove it for Curry just not your other guys hah. You win congrats!
    To call out successfully you have to actually prove your point. You continue to fail miserably in that regard.

    More words then anyone in this thread and yet not one of them has been used to provide substance to your assertions.

  16. #41
    Unstoppable! GuardianAngel25's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    NOLA
    Posts
    8,338
    http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rp...RPM/position/1

    Curry is the only guy you listed as the "elite" ahead of Holiday on this list. You are presenting stats that just contradict the other guys you are trying to say are better. So you are only presenting things to make you argument the right one. If you go look at pat years Holiday is up there as one of the top defensive PGs who is a starter in almost everything I have looked at. Done arguing with you I'll take the L haha. Like I said you are throwing out stats that make the other guys you list look terrible. You mention how Curry is 4th but decided to leave out Conley and Beverly. I'm done.

  17. #42
    Unstoppable! GuardianAngel25's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    NOLA
    Posts
    8,338
    Quote Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco View Post
    To call out successfully you have to actually prove your point. You continue to fail miserably in that regard.

    More words then anyone in this thread and yet not one of them has been used to provide substance to your assertions.
    Yea so cringe worthy hahaha! Man your feelings are really hurt that your points your making only benefit Curry just no one else you listed. Curry is 4th I will give you that but where is everyone else you listed? Right behind Holiday or very far behind haha. Now I'm really done not worth my time.
    Last edited by GuardianAngel25; 05-25-2015 at 10:15 PM.

  18. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by GuardianAngel25 View Post
    http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rp...RPM/position/1

    Curry is the only guy you listed as the "elite" ahead of Holiday on this list. You are presenting stats that just contradict the other guys you are trying to say are better. So you are only presenting things to make you argument the right one. If you go look at pat years Holiday is up there as one of the top defensive PGs who is a starter in almost everything I have looked at. Done arguing with you I'll take the L haha. Like I said you are throwing out stats that make the other guys you list look terrible. You mention how Curry is 4th but decided to leave out Conley and Beverly. I'm done.
    Again, 1 metric of 4. So we can throw out that one out(But I guess that also means we need to throw out 13-14 real +/- stat where Jrue was superior.....lol). Still, that leaves 3 other metrics to look at compared to your - oh wait - you have none.

  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco View Post
    No defensive metrics are perfect, that is why I didn't lean on any one metric. It is also why I further added to my post my own observations.

    Let me add another one, DFG%: the % of the shooter the player is defending.

    Curry: 40%
    Jrue:43%

    Im looking for something that makes this notion that Curry was a superior defender this season so laughable, but I guess the argument against me is basically empty because no one has offered much so far. The only metric I found in Jrues favor was the overall FG% of the shooter the player guarded most. Where they broke even at 43%. But with so much switching and such on both teams it is a worse metric then DFG% to me. Which focuses only on the shots each player was actively defending their primary match up.

    I mean we can go to the eye test but the eye test shows that Jrue took games and quarters off plenty of games since coming here. His consistency has been anything but consistent. When he is on he is arguably as god as anyone but he isn't always on.
    what were people like bledsoe, conley and other's DFG%?

  20. #45
    EG and Q Pon for Ty and W Chandler works.
    PG. Ty
    SG. Jrue
    SF. Chandler
    PF. Mvp AD
    C. Monroe
    With a bench of Evans, Ryno, Cole, Cunningham and Withey.

  21. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by 23speedkillz View Post
    EG and Q Pon for Ty and W Chandler works.
    PG. Ty
    SG. Jrue
    SF. Chandler
    PF. Mvp AD
    C. Monroe
    With a bench of Evans, Ryno, Cole, Cunningham and Withey.
    lol that would be awesome, but not happening.

  22. #47
    It's still nice to dream

  23. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by GuardianAngel25 View Post
    Eye test? Honestly how many games did you see Curry play to get this eye test? Jrue played half a season also. I know I won't get a truthful answer but I guarantee you didn't see 10 regular season Warriors games. I watched atleast half with that being my 2nd favorite team and Curry is definitely not a better defender than Holiday. He is a good one and great at getting steals but no way is he a better overal defender.
    I have LP, watched 80 NOLA games and approx. 20-25 GSW games.

    Curry is a great at staying in front of his man and in general don't give up on play, he don't have the size and strength but he make it up with iq and effort.

  24. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueJay View Post
    I have LP, watched 80 NOLA games and approx. 20-25 GSW games.

    Curry is a great at staying in front of his man and in general don't give up on play, he don't have the size and strength but he make it up with iq and effort.
    i think curry is a fine defender and has improved that part of his game, but I don't think he is on Jrue's level. The only player besides Jrue that I have seen harass and give people like Kyrie, Rose, Wall and players of that nature problems is patrick beverly. Avery bradley and Bledsoe are pretty darn good too. But jrue's footwork and ability to stay in front of people is elite, don't care what anyone says. People saying it didn't look like it this year, well he was playing on a bum leg.
    Last edited by HornetGuru; 05-25-2015 at 11:11 PM.

  25. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by HornetGuru View Post
    i think curry is a fine defender and has improved that part of his game, but I don't think he is on Jrue's level. The only player besides Jrue that I have seen harass and give people like Kyrie, Rose, Wall and players of that nature problems is patrick beverly. Avery bradley and Bledsoe are pretty darn good too. But jrue's footwork and ability to stay in front of people is elite, don't care what anyone says. People saying it didn't look like it this year, well he was playing on a bum leg.
    I won't call it "harass", more like make other discomfort before they figure you out. But that style of D can tired him out real quick, maybe that is one of the reason of his injury.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •