Originally Posted by djpaul89
so you are saying he is the best we have, but that isn't that good. so you agree with me? Therefore, if you agree with me, then you got to believe he has to go.
can people stop saying straw man argument?
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so you are saying he is the best we have, but that isn't that good. so you agree with me? Therefore, if you agree with me, then you got to believe he has to go.
can people stop saying straw man argument?
I get all that... Im just waiting on someone to tell me why they'd resign Asik for 4yr/$40m when you can get 80% of the player for 30% of the cost. Especially when we still need serious help on the wing and centers no longer win championships.
I would add these:
You left off Asik's ability to box out on the defensive end, his ability to get position on the offensive end, ability to defend without fouling (aka a smart defender), looks to push the ball out of rebounds and start fast breaks, ability to hedge and recover, rarely gets pulled out of the paint or caught out of position, able to get into the head of other players and rattle them, and he is a physical player on both sides of the ball. Also he's not a good rebounder, he is an elite rebounder.
Tends to bring the ball down on offensive rebounds allowing the defense time to recover, rarely finishes above the rim, FT shooting is poor enough that you can get away with hard fouls instead of allowing easy buckets, struggles more with hyper athletes than talented smart players, and if forced to put the ball on the floor can get turnovers.
Ajinca needs to be guarded tight even out to 18ft, is a good rebounder and length allows him to put back with ease, can score face up or out of post, due to size is difficult to bully on the defensive end, and makes FTs at a good rate for a big so he is not a liability in late game situations.
Is slow and can struggle with faster C's, if pressured will turn the ball over, if attacked on defense will foul at an alarmingly high rate, can be used to get into the bonus, is prone to becoming tired and playing sloppy if forced to play extended minutes, and can be caught out of position defensively sometimes.
I'm not as b-ball savvy as you gents but I'd keep both. I like Asik defense even though his hands are made of stone. I thought he play Gasol pretty good the other night. Ajinca's offense has been great back so far this season, the only thing that scares me is how quick Ajinca can pick up fouls.
Marc Gasol 2-7 from the field.
Last edited by SaintPelican225; 03-08-2015 at 10:21 PM.
4yr/ 36m = GOAT. 4yr/40m = worst deal ever. LMAO.
Tyreke is 80% the player that Westbrook is. One is a max player, one is 10m/yr. Sometimes 20% is a big enough difference to pay an extra 50% (Ajinca is not 30% the price if he gets 5m/yr and Asik gets 10m/yr). Why not look at it as - We can get Ajinca AND Asik for the cost of Deandre Jordan or Roy Hibbert?
Signing Asik also will not stop us from being able to offer a sizable contract to a good wing player. The only thing he might do is make us not be able to get LBJ . . .however if we operate under the assumption that Durant and LBJ are not a real possibility then any other FA wing that we realistically have a shot at we can offer.
The simple answer is: The combination of Asik and Ajinca gives us a solid front court rotation to pair with Davis. He is the defensive anchor to pair next to AD which allows him to roam on defense and play outside of the paint on offense. His contract will not be big enough to hinder any realistic future signings and will hold plenty of value if we find a better long term replacement. Signing Asik gives us the best combination of winning now while still having flexibility in the future.
I'm still waiting for someone to give a realistic reason we should not bring him back.
Wow. You put way too much into my post that was not there. But I'll play along.
No I don't agree with your screening point. And even if I did, why would that necessarily mean I think he has to go?
He is a great screener IMO, not just in comparison to the rest of our bigs but in his own regard. I doubt those three screens in crunchtime that helped ice our games would have been as effective with our other bigs. And I see you chose to gloss over those examples and points I made about off ball screening to dismiss that strength. Sagging off and ignoring Asik doesn't do anything if he's screening off the ball to free up a spot up or pull up jump shot and actually makes that style of defense a worse defensive option, because now the defending big isn't in position to help and deny the ball to the shooter.
He has more offensive value besides just scoring the ball is the overarching point. The fact that our other bigs don't set screens as well gives him added value around here. He extends possessions for us and ends them for the opponent as evidenced by being the 3rd best rebounder in the NBA (according to Mythrol). That is SERIOUS value there alone for a big man that wouldn't be easily replaced. And on the occasions that he facilitates from the high post I've seen that he's capable of being an effective passer.
With that said, his offensive deficiencies can be...annoying to say the least. But with the high usage offensive weapons that surround him, that's not all that crucial for us. And if we retain all our big men, he'd be part of the most versatile frontcourt in the NBA.
TLDR: In my eyes, he's a keeper.
P.S.: I'd also be interested in seeing how the Monty system big man effect works on him. Over his tenure, big men have made big jumps in their 2nd year.
I'm of the mindset of keeping Asik and Ajinca. If we can keep Asik for 7-8m per year. He's not worth more than that. Asik is a very good 1 on 1 low post defender. He's a banger down low and we need that. However I'd rate Ajinca a much higher offensive player than Asik. It's really not even close. Ajinca can knock down the mid range jumper with some consistency. Asik has problems making lay ups. Ajinca has low post moves including a turn around jumper. Asik has problems catching passes down low. It's really not close at all. Ajinca has a long ways to go be considered a good defender but he's getting better and better with time. He's improved a ton since we first signed him. No reason to think he can't keep Improving on that side of the ball. He's been having his spurts lately without fouling as much.
Not much difference in my opinion between 4/36 and 4/40. I never said 4/36 was GOAT.
I don't want to give him 4 years and if we do I want the annual discounted more than $1m. In fact, in other threads I've suggested that I'd be ok with $10m annual, but would prefer if it wasn't for 4 years. Hell I might give Asik as much as 3/36 if the 3rd year is a team option.
I can understand your point. You're someone who believes you need to have a center to win a championship. However I've seen multiple teams win titles with guys less talented than Ajinca playing center. And I believe we could get Ajinca for 3 yrs/$10m, so that's the path I'd take.
It's crazy when people say player x and player y aren't real possibilities and only certain players are realistic. Kevin Love says he'll resign with Cleveland. That should show you how much some of these stars want to win.
“America has only three cities: New York, San Francisco, and New Orleans. Everywhere else is Cleveland.”
You just said in the other thread that you'd be all on board for Asik if he had Tiago Splitter's 4yr/36m deal. . . I simply fail to see a huge difference between 9m/yr and 10/yr. I don't understand how you can be all for Splitters deal but be so anti a deal worth only 4m more over the life of it. Makes no sense. Here's your exact quote:
I believe we need at least a decent center to win, yes. The main difference seems to be you believe Ajinca by himself can be that center for us. I simply can't see that. He has played great the last. . .say 3 weeks (while ignoring people calling for him to be benched in Dec/Jan for Withey to take over) but that is taking a HUGE risk to hedge the 5 position over the next few years on that sample size.Spurs gave Tiago 4yr $36m. Which is great considering cap is going up, which everyone knew was happening when they agreed to it. If we can get Asik for that, I'm all in.
When you combine that with the fact that Ajinca made comments last year about thinking he plays best off the bench in limited minutes and I don't think he can be the starting center solution for us. He can be a solid backup center that offers a change of pace to Asik but his foul rate will keep him for playing long minutes if not his energy levels.
If your argument has devolved to the level of, "Who's to say we can't sign LBJ or Durant?" Then you really have no argument at all. No GM, especially one in a small market, can ever hedge their bets to expect to sign a top 5 player in the FA market. Then once we miss out on them next summer we will end up with a wing player that we could have signed anyway while keeping Asik, except we won't have him. Excuse me if I see that long term plan as horribly pathetic.
Last edited by Mythrol; 03-09-2015 at 01:11 AM.
As I've said, which you ignore, my problem with Asik is multiple, but at the same time, I'm not decidedly against Asik like some folks.
Acknowledge the gray area and it'll all be ok.
Asik is not the "ideal" center for this team. Even if he fits on defense, he's a detriment on offense, which means even if you don't believe like I do that he's started to break down physically, you need to pair him with a center like Ajinca. I've never argued that Ajinca can handle the duties of being our center by himself, but that Ajinca plus a player TBD would be necessary to handle the role.
My problem with Asik, is that he may command a a 4yr contract in excess of what I want to pay him for the role of marginal lead dog in a 2 man center rotation. I would have the same problem giving Ajinca a 4 yr deal in excess of $40m. But I think I can sign Ajinca for less, and find another 6'10-7'0" bruiser for a fraction of what it'll cost to sign Asik.
I get the fact that the team is up against the cap and wouldn't have the saved dollars to spend this season, but if Asik wasn't already on this team would you seriously look at the big picture and advocate that we go out and sign that guy to a 4 yr 40+ million dollar deal if we had Ajinca giving us 20 minutes a game of solid production and we developed some other player into a 15mpg rebounder/defender?
Signing Asik to a 4 year deal strikes me the same way the signing of James Posey did. People couldn't wait to get rid of Okafor, and Asik is not as good as Okafor. I think we'll all be able to rationalize and accept an Asik contract in 2015/16, but we'll absolutely regret it in the last 3 years of his contract when he's 30-33 years old, playing less than 20 mpg and playing less than 70 games. What little athleticism he has is likely going to get worse.
Every dollar we spend on Asik, is a dollar less we can spend on the wings and at PG. The quality of our wings and a PG, even if that's just resigning Jrue, will have a greater impact on whether AD stays in NOLA and wins championships than Asik will as a diminishing and aging big man. Is that going to mean we sign a LBJ or KD level free agent, maybe not, but it puts us at the table for the Wesley Matthews, Draymond Green, etc types in 2016-18. It could be the difference between going after one of those guys and our own guys, and going after two big fishes.
I just ask myself, what would Pat Riley do?
Does Asik have enough basketball skill to be a Spur?
I don't think championship organizations sign a player like Asik to long term deals for big money.
I mean, while the difference between what I would offer Asik and what you would offer Asik might be marginal, it's that difference that would allow me to sign a shooter like Morrow or Babbitt for the bench. And not signing him at all is the difference between having a Babbitt/Morrow type player and a DeMarre Carroll type player.
Last edited by NMThreeMVP; 03-09-2015 at 10:10 AM.
For someone who wants to win championships the line of reasoning of "Ajinca plus TBD" is so far out there that it boggles my mind.
As we have seen multiple times 4 quarters does not always make a dollar in the NBA. Teams don't just let big men walk for the possibility that they might in a to couple of years be able to bring in some center who might possibly be able to replace 80% of what the center who walked did. All this to save 1m/yr? LOL.
The problem seems to be you are underestimating Asik, and overestimating Ajinca and the ability to find a center that can replace Asik.
I do not believe this TBD will be as easy to find as you do. And even if we do he is still going to have to be traded for or signed.
In the meantime however what do we do if Ajinca goes down? We become pretty much SOL the next year or two with any type of injury at the C position. Again, all to try and save a measly 1m/yr?
Where my confusion comes from is how you can be "all in" on 9m/yr but would let him walking with no real plan or ability to replace him for 10m/yr.
This whole Ajinca + TBD feels just like people resting their hopes on a draft pick and saying, "But it could be anything!" When the truth is draft, Free Agency, or wherever the odds of replacing Asik are not high.
Even if you somehow magically find a guy in Europe who went under everyone's radar and sign him to the same type of 2yr deal as Ajinca. Guess what? Before Asik's contract would even be up you are going to be paying this new guy a lot more money than Asik's deal would have been. Or even worse, some other team who will have more cap space sees him and steals him away or forces you to pay more!
That feels a heck of a lot more YOLO than just giving Asik an extra million a year and having the position secure and locked up.
Last edited by Mythrol; 03-09-2015 at 11:01 AM.
9m per year and 10m per year are both too much for Asik imo.
Contributor 
As much as I have been in the Asik gotta go camp, the more I look at everybody's arguements, and look at what the options for this summer would be, I am more willing to pay Asik over 10. That had been my line between thinking it was a good or a bad deal. But now I'm worried about the length of the contract. Back problems don't age well. This guy is a total mystery to me. Are health problems slowing him this season that will get better over the summer? Will he catch better when he knows his teammates tendencies better? Or does he keep breaking down and still can't catch squat? If this goes bad a 4 year deal will have us howling worse than EG's deal. While we suffered through him our team was supposed to stink, there are high expectations for the next 4 years...
Ok, dude, you win.
I really don't want to sign Asik at all. I said I was all in at 4/36, but honestly, even that makes me uneasy. I don't think Asik is worth 3x what Ajinca is, and would struggle to pay him whatever that number ends up being, which based on ESPN projections is closer to 4/44. I just don't see it, but it's not because I hate Asik. I think people are ****ting on Ajinca in their effort to justify why we need to sign Asik.
Explain to me how a center who's PER has gone up to 21, #6 among centers, is less valuable than a center who's PER is 40th among centers? And Ajinca's PER has gone up as his minutes have gone up, so it's not a small sample size thing.
I don't disagree that they compliment each other, but I think Asik is more the complement to Ajinca, than the reverse.
You're operating out of fear that you can't replace Asik. I think Asik is a very replaceable player at a much more affordable cost than 4/44.
I'd rather operate out what's the ideal scenario, and the ideal scenario is that we get a Plumlee, Nazr Mohommad, Ian Mahinmi, Aron Baynes, Kevin Seraphin, Mitch McGary type to complement Ajinca at a fraction of the cost.
Asik is a 25 mpg player, with no athleticism, dealing with back and knee issues, getting older, and only contributing positively on one end of the court. I'm just terrified to lock that guy up for 4 years!
But whatever, you win. Show'em the money! Let'em have it!
Would you give him 4/48?
There's really nothing more to be said. I've been wasting my breath under the assumption you actually wanted a discussion.
Last edited by Mythrol; 03-09-2015 at 11:58 AM.
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