Fire Monty???

[djpaul89]

Here Kumar's very detailed post on the close of the Thunder game and Month's adjustments

http://www.pelicansreport.com/showth...Evans-heroball

[kclaboy504]

Cool story bro.

lol

[N.O.Bronco]

Bronco what the hell.

First of all, recognize the context of his claim. His claim is basically that most championship coaches have high caliber rosters to go along with whatever coaching abilities they may have. Despite whatever pros and cons MW may have, he's good ENOUGH to get a great roster there. You strawmanning the premise of his claim by making him construct a 15 point thesis of Month's coaching pros when he clearly is of the stance that talent has more weight than coaching.

Secondly, you are the pot calling the kettle black with your "GIVE ME DETAILS NOT GENERALITIES!!" schtick. All your claim is that Monty has bad rotations (how?), loses close games (what coach doesn't? And in such cases who's to say that the coach is the sole blame?), doesn't adjust well (your opinion, and honestly can't be quantified either way), etc.

Thirdly, as other posters have already stated, none of the "Monty defenders" claim that he is the greatest coach ever. They're all basically of the stance of be reasonable, balanced, patient, and consider the big picture and likely consider MW to at least be an average coach who has decent knowledge of the game but flaws. You're constructing your own narrative to suit your point better. We're not claiming to be smarter than an NBA coach and micro-analyzing each coaching decision as blatantly cut and dry dumb or smart. You're the one with all these sharp hot takes that Monty isn't good enough for us, so it should be on YOU the prosecutor here to back yourself up.

No his claim was and I quote "he can be a championship caliber coach if he has the same caliber of players as most other championship coaches were when they won their chanmpionships.....No, I don't see anyone available that would be an overall upgrade over Monty. Unavailable or unable to handle the grind: Karl, Sloan, Phil, Pops, CArlisle, Thibs, Coach K, Izzo. Not an upgrade: Van Gundies, Karl, Spoelstra, Marc JAckson, any players who haven't coached, any other college coach, any foreign coach. This is the only point which really matters, and therefore the only one I addressed."

Assertions require substantiation to be given merit.

When I advocated for Karl over Monty I have and did give very specific reasons for why I would put my trust in him over monty at this point.

I have gladly qualified myself plenty of times with very specific instances: http://www.pelicansreport.com/showth...ighlight=Monty

http://www.pelicansreport.com/showth...=1#post1263926

Go look at any gameday thread and I have not once not answered in specifics when asked what my particular issue is if I am criticizing Monty.

And furthermore nowhere have i ever failed to acknowledge the value of talent when it comes to championship success. If we want to argue about the level of effect a coach has on winning that is a separate argument from comparing Monty and his decisions to alternatives.

[N.O.Bronco]

Cool story bro.

When you got nothing, troll. Gotcha!

[N.O.Bronco]

By the way, you don't have to do that last part. It was more hypothetical than anything. I also don't care that much to argue. Like I told UNO, if you don't think MW is the right coach, that's cool. You might be right, maybe he's not. Some of us are in evaluate, wait and see, and be fair mode, while I guess your mind is made up.

The funny thing is is that I don't actually think Monty is the sole cause of our problems. And I don't think that he is incapable of winning a championship if he is given talent that can override his current flaws. In fact my argument against Monty is summed up pretty simply: He's good, not great, is growing in areas but has failed to grow in others, and on full assessment I don't think if I were a Gm coming in at the end of the season that I would have a reason to retain him if certain alternatives are available.

Its just that when discussing certain members of this organization on here: Monty, Evans and to a lesser extent Demps and Ryno, criticizing beyond a basic level(sometimes any at all) is basically off limits in their mind.

Once you cross it the stupidity comes out in droves in an attempt to stomp out that diversity in opinion. And unless you want to bow to that pressure it ends up taking pages of back and forth to roll back the stupidity that they try and assault you with in the name of defending their guys honor.

So the end result to anyone reading it is that they have an obssession with criticizing someone when in reality it is merely a poster, often me, having to spend a disproportunate amount of time defending or proving something because it triggers those certain posters to unleash the stupid because that particular comment grates against their strongly held opinion abut a particular member of the organization.

[UNO Gracias]

When Monty first got here and we were doing well I thought, wow, Monty ball is really working well. Then CP3, DX, and others left and we were at square one. I gave Monty his deserved time to rebuild, but with thee results, it's hard to call him worth of an extra year (if these results hold). He isn't exactly dealing with a bad roster, and the results from his first year seem more tied to CP3 and DX than the Monty ball system.

[N.O.Bronco]

When Monty first got here and we were doing well I thought, wow, Monty ball is really working well. Then CP3, DX, and others left and we were at square one. I gave Monty his deserved time to rebuild, but with thee results, it's hard to call him worth of an extra year (if these results hold). He isn't exactly dealing with a bad roster, and the results from his first year seem more tied to CP3 and DX than the Monty ball system.

To defend Monty a bit here I actually was very impressed with his early system success with that roster. He used CP3 as the primary ball handler defender, Ariza to guard the best opposing scorer and Okafor to guard the best big man. West and the SG of the month played the rest. It was a fluid and honestly a slightly new approach to defense. And it worked, incredibly well. We went from 20th in the league in defense to 10th Monty's first season.

But ever since then, when he hasn't had his ideal roster that fits his system, he has struggled to repeat that success.

Everything else I agree. He hasn't had a perfect situation but rarely do coaches ever have that and one of the best signs of a good coach has been either getting players to mold into a system and making it successful or being able to adapt and maximize to his current rosters make-up. Neither of those things do I think monty has excelled at since his first season.

[UNO Gracias]

Adapt or die is correct. He hasn't had his ideal roster, and he hasn't found a successful way to adapt to only coaching AD, Jrue, Reke, Ryno, and Gordon.

[Mythrol]

When you got nothing, troll. Gotcha!

You must keep forgetting that I simply don't care to even engage in this topic.

[N.O.Bronco]

You must keep forgetting that I simply don't care to even engage in this topic.

Then you have the 3rd most posts in this thread and responded to me why????

You, like has been done before, went full in on the stupid by equating all of the criticism of Monty as indistinguishable from the worst reactionary posts on this forum. Throwing in some conspiratorial bull**** about hidden agendas for good measure.

I took the time to try and draw you back off that cliff and better explain the argument behind the Monty criticism(at least from my end) that you and so many others seem to be unable to grasp and constantly misunderstand and overstate and the response to that was a troll post.

[UptownFuz504]

Monty's issues IMO are that a) this team is a really bad impersonation of the Spurs and b) Dell has done an awful job putting the team together. I personally do not think another coach could do much with this roster aside from tearing it apart. If you ask me, Demps is more to blame than Monty. Rivers, Gordon, Tyreke, and Asik (only because he was a more expensive correction for getting rid of Rolo) were bad acquisitions. Rivers wasn't good on draft day and still isn't. Gordon has been injury prone his entire career. Tyreke has a basketball brain the size of a peanut and we had to get rid of 2 decent players in positions of need to get him. Asik is actually a good pick up but is the result of the mistake we made picking up Tyreke. Monty is left with putting square pegs in round holes. Add to that, we can only add talent via free agency because Dell Dellt (see what I dd there?) all of our draft picks. Monty should receive blame because frankly some of the things he does befuddles me but Dell should not be let off of the hook

[billfromfinance]

Then why do we have threads like this? If no one wants Monty as a coach then why are we seeing so many posts trying to preserve his honor and make the case to retain his tenure?

If no one on this board actually wants him to be the coach any longer then they are completely irrational in defending keeping him beyond the season. Making a case for a sunk cost that they know in their heart needs to be replaced for the long term good. I understand the argument of "is it players or coach?" "GM or coach?" But there are A LOT of AD likes him so lets keep him posts and Monty just needs more time/better players/more trust/is better then X, Y, Z,/I'd rather Monty over anyone else available. To me that is hard not to inference as meaning they want to retain Monty long term.

Well I differentiate the Monty defense as so far this year with a full team uninjured (barring EG) he is doing reasonably well. He has improved over the past few years, but still has work to go. There is no other coach we can just grab that will guarantee instant improvement and success as well as be beneficial for us in the long term (that I have seen argument for). People are prepared to ride out the contract he has to see where he gets us. That seems fair considering that is what a contract is for, and why the terms are agreed upon in the first place. When wanting to replace a system with a new one, the onus is generally on the new system owner to argue how his new system would make us better. Not the current system to argue why it should stay. Monty is getting paid. Want to get rid of him, show the value of doing so for the organization. How many more w's would we get from doing so? Are there possibly other benefits another coach may bring which might be favourable?

People bring up simple points around AD and his relationship because it is a simple showing of having a good player relationship (which people value highly). They also probably cbf arguing over something none of us really have any control over.

Risk v Reward. Is George Karl the only coach people think should replace Monty? What if they hire him and he doesn't make us any better than Monty? and on top of that he pisses players off? Or what about the fact in 25 years Karl has never won a ring? and has only made the nba finals once. I personally think Monty could take us to the first round and lose, just like George Karls career summary.

My problem is that, say he came on next year. More than likely roster changes would happen between now and then to help fix our issues at SF and bench. So how does one attribute changing the coach as to the success of the team (if it happened) and not the simple change of roster (that we know we need) and the team growing together. If we sit at 40+ wins this season, I would not be opposed to giving Monty another year to see where he can take us with the general same core healthy and some additions to the roster. His growth comes as the team grows, just like our young players. If we are truly out for the better for this franchise in the long term, how is investing in a good up and coming coach not as valuable as a good up and coming player?

My other thought on the matter - we are playing in a time when the west is stacked, and our division is ridiculous. Right now we are outsiders for a chance at the 8th seed with PHX, OKC. Does a new coach put us on the same level as OKC? Not unless his name is Greg Poppovich. We have one budding superstar in AD. They have a current MVP, and ninja turtle. Two current top 5 players. Does it put us on the same level as PHX - possibly, can't definitely say either way. But then we are battling for 9th spot really, so what does it matter?

Let's see how this season goes. THEN let's make some judgments on season performance by team and coach, and decide what we think. We could drop a bunch of games and finish with 35 wins. That will definitely see a change in attitude from most. But we could finish with 45 on the other end, so, let's see how we go.

[UptownFuz504]

Then you have the 3rd most posts in this thread and responded to me why????

You, like has been done before, went full in on the stupid by equating all of the criticism of Monty as indistinguishable from the worst reactionary posts on this forum. Throwing in some conspiratorial bull**** about hidden agendas for good measure.

I took the time to try and draw you back off that cliff and better explain the argument behind the Monty criticism(at least from my end) that you and so many others seem to be unable to grasp and constantly misunderstand and overstate and the response to that was a troll post.

Dude, you might be my favorite poster. No feelings involved just straight basketball talk. Too many people are fans of players and not of the team. You don't withhold your criticism of any of the favs around here and that is refreshing

[WhoDatPelican]

TL;DR
for shiggles (in no particular order)

Top Tier Coaches:
Pop
Rivers
Thibodeau

2nd Tier:
Rick Carlisle
Brad Stevens
McHale
Hornacek
Stotts
Vogel
Spoelstra
Joerger
Kerr
Blatt
Clifford
Budenholzer
Monty
Van Gundy
Kidd
Saunders
Fisher
Brooks
Vaughn
Brown
Corbin
Casey
Snyder
Wittman
Hollins
Shaw

3rd Tier:
Byron Scott

[N.O.Bronco]

Well I differentiate the Monty defense as so far this year with a full team uninjured (barring EG) he is doing reasonably well. He has improved over the past few years, but still has work to go. There is no other coach we can just grab that will guarantee instant improvement and success as well as be beneficial for us in the long term (that I have seen argument for). People are prepared to ride out the contract he has to see where he gets us. That seems fair considering that is what a contract is for, and why the terms are agreed upon in the first place. When wanting to replace a system with a new one, the onus is generally on the new system owner to argue how his new system would make us better. Not the current system to argue why it should stay. Monty is getting paid. Want to get rid of him, show the value of doing so for the organization. How many more w's would we get from doing so? Are there possibly other benefits another coach may bring which might be favourable?

People bring up simple points around AD and his relationship because it is a simple showing of having a good player relationship (which people value highly). They also probably cbf arguing over something none of us really have any control over.

Risk v Reward. Is George Karl the only coach people think should replace Monty? What if they hire him and he doesn't make us any better than Monty? and on top of that he pisses players off? Or what about the fact in 25 years Karl has never won a ring? and has only made the nba finals once. I personally think Monty could take us to the first round and lose, just like George Karls career summary.

My problem is that, say he came on next year. More than likely roster changes would happen between now and then to help fix our issues at SF and bench. So how does one attribute changing the coach as to the success of the team (if it happened) and not the simple change of roster (that we know we need) and the team growing together. If we sit at 40+ wins this season, I would not be opposed to giving Monty another year to see where he can take us with the general same core healthy and some additions to the roster. His growth comes as the team grows, just like our young players. If we are truly out for the better for this franchise in the long term, how is investing in a good up and coming coach not as valuable as a good up and coming player?

My other thought on the matter - we are playing in a time when the west is stacked, and our division is ridiculous. Right now we are outsiders for a chance at the 8th seed with PHX, OKC. Does a new coach put us on the same level as OKC? Not unless his name is Greg Poppovich. We have one budding superstar in AD. They have a current MVP, and ninja turtle. Two current top 5 players. Does it put us on the same level as PHX - possibly, can't definitely say either way. But then we are battling for 9th spot really, so what does it matter?

Let's see how this season goes. THEN let's make some judgments on season performance by team and coach, and decide what we think. We could drop a bunch of games and finish with 35 wins. That will definitely see a change in attitude from most. But we could finish with 45 on the other end, so, let's see how we go.

The question comes down to is he a good up and coming coach? And potential vs proven talent. I would argue he isn't anything special and that I would take proven over potential when it comes to coaching 9 times out of 10. After Monty was always considered the consolation prize in the Thibodeaux sweepstakes. A poor mans TT. But reality is he hasn't produced a good defense since his first year here.

Lets take George Karl for example. He doesnt have a ring but he does have a proven track record of winning everywhere he has coached. His year prior to getting fired he won coach of the year. He took a struggling Nuggets team with Melo and produced arguably the Nuggets and Melo's best season runs in their history. He has 21 straight winning record seasons. In those 21 season he missed the playoffs once. He has shown he can win defensively(Supersonics) and offensively(Everywhere). He has shown adaptability to his rosters and also finding success at implementing a system and maximizing players within that system.

And if you are going to play the excuses game for Monty you have to play it for Karl as well. Karl never had a top 3 player like Davis with the work ethic to match. Melo was a mental midget with known work ethic and leadership deficiencies. Yet he took him to a conference finals. Took the Bucks to the conference finals. His finals loss came to a historic GOAT Jordan Bulls team. And almost every team he has coached cratered after he left. Showing that he had a maximizing impact on their franchise.

As for the roster vs coaching discussion, that is something that will always be in place with any coaching change.

I respect you entire argument more then a lot of what I have been reading. Like I said, I approach the idea of Monty from a certain perspective. I ask myself, if I were a GM today, with the goal of winning a championship, would I want to retain Monty going forward? My answer, after weighing the pros and cons, understanding the risk involved in changing coaches, I would still make the change. I firmly believe that a championship team more often then not requires a proper mix of Player Talent, front office competency, great to elite coaching and a bit of luck. It is HARD to win in this league. When I assess Williams I see a guy that will require the other pillars of championship success needing to be raised much higher to compensate for a guy that has shown in his career to be mostly just slightly above average and not a very good coach in the area a good playoff coach needs to be good: in-game and game to game adjustments and consistency.

[BP225]

What realistically would make people think a team led by a 21 year old has any right to be playoff bound in the west?

LeBron, KD and CP3 all made it happen in year 3. The west was just as stacked for CP3. AD gives you enough of a foundation that if you don't make the playoffs something is wrong.

[Mythrol]

Then you have the 3rd most posts in this thread and responded to me why????

You, like has been done before, went full in on the stupid by equating all of the criticism of Monty as indistinguishable from the worst reactionary posts on this forum. Throwing in some conspiratorial bull**** about hidden agendas for good measure.

I took the time to try and draw you back off that cliff and better explain the argument behind the Monty criticism(at least from my end) that you and so many others seem to be unable to grasp and constantly misunderstand and overstate and the response to that was a troll post.

You must not have read my posts clearly. You take me not engaging you on this topic that has been beaten to death as me not grasping your criticism or not having an answer.

What I'm saying is this has all been discussed before and is a tiring subject. I avoided all of you posts in here until you basically said, "What? No one has an answer?" At which time I explained there are plenty but its not worth going over because people just ignore them and continue bashing Monty.

There are many threads and posts that discuss Monty and his coaching in-depth. The search function is your friend. But please do not pretend that no one has answered your criticisms before. All the concerns you have mentioned have been addressed multiple times in the past. Monty is not faultless, but we could do far worse.

[N.O.Bronco]

You must not have read my posts clearly. You take me not engaging you on this topic that has been beaten to death as me not grasping your criticism or not having an answer.

What I'm saying is this has all been discussed before and is a tiring subject. I avoided all of you posts in here until you basically said, "What? No one has an answer?" At which time I explained there are plenty but its not worth going over because people just ignore them and continue bashing Monty.

There are many threads and posts that discuss Monty and his coaching in-depth. The search function is your friend. But please do not pretend that no one has answered your criticisms before. All the concerns you have mentioned have been addressed multiple times in the past. Monty is not faultless, but we could do far worse.

Nothing like making an appeal to anonymous, unprovided sources..... Carry on though.

Of course there has been discussion on Monty, but I have not read a single post that truly quantifies and substantiates against the criticisms(that have been discussed in detail) of the more intelligent posts on the subject. Which is why I posed the question, and then subsequently lost patience when those that made this thread once again dragged the conversation into the mud.

[UNO Gracias]

We could do worse, and we could do a lot better. This roster might be an island of misfit toys, but these are the misfit FAO Schwartz, and other high end toys.

Missing EG shouldn't cause your team to lose to lessor teams (which we have since Gordon has been out).

[kclaboy504]

The question comes down to is he a good up and coming coach? And potential vs proven talent. I would argue he isn't anything special and that I would take proven over potential when it comes to coaching 9 times out of 10. After Monty was always considered the consolation prize in the Thibodeaux sweepstakes. A poor mans TT. But reality is he hasn't produced a good defense since his first year here.

Lets take George Karl for example. He doesnt have a ring but he does have a proven track record of winning everywhere he has coached. His year prior to getting fired he won coach of the year. He took a struggling Nuggets team with Melo and produced arguably the Nuggets and Melo's best season runs in their history. He has 21 straight winning record seasons. In those 21 season he missed the playoffs once. He has shown he can win defensively(Supersonics) and offensively(Everywhere). He has shown adaptability to his rosters and also finding success at implementing a system and maximizing players within that system.

And if you are going to play the excuses game for Monty you have to play it for Karl as well. Karl never had a top 3 player like Davis with the work ethic to match. Melo was a mental midget with known work ethic and leadership deficiencies. Yet he took him to a conference finals. Took the Bucks to the conference finals. His finals loss came to a historic GOAT Jordan Bulls team. And almost every team he has coached cratered after he left. Showing that he had a maximizing impact on their franchise.

As for the roster vs coaching discussion, that is something that will always be in place with any coaching change.

I respect you entire argument more then a lot of what I have been reading. Like I said, I approach the idea of Monty from a certain perspective. I ask myself, if I were a GM today, with the goal of winning a championship, would I want to retain Monty going forward? My answer, after weighing the pros and cons, understanding the risk involved in changing coaches, I would still make the change. I firmly believe that a championship team more often then not requires a proper mix of Player Talent, front office competency, great to elite coaching and a bit of luck. It is HARD to win in this league. When I assess Williams I see a guy that will require the other pillars of championship success needing to be raised much higher to compensate for a guy that has shown in his career to be mostly just slightly above average and not a very good coach in the area a good playoff coach needs to be good: in-game and game to game adjustments and consistency.

EXCELLENT FREAKIN POST

[Rippa2]

Please fire monty asap!

[UNO Gracias]

I am still on board the can Monty train, but tonight the refs were an abomination.

[BallSoHard]

I see a lot of people holding Monty to a championship calibre asking, can he lead us to a championship? I'm not sure that's a fair question. In reality not many teams win rings. Jerry Sloan never won a championship, does that mean he's not a championship calibre coach? A lot of people also suggest George Karl as a replacement, but what's he done to be considered a championship calibre coach?

I'm not saying Monty is the long term answer, but I am seeing players grow under him and I'm seeing the team grow. When that growth stops I think it's time to move forward, but until then I think as a fan base we should cool our jets. This is and has been my stance on this for a couple of years.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TheCanMan]

Nothing like making an appeal to anonymous, unprovided sources..... Carry on though.

Of course there has been discussion on Monty, but I have not read a single post that truly quantifies and substantiates against the criticisms(that have been discussed in detail) of the more intelligent posts on the subject. Which is why I posed the question, and then subsequently lost patience when those that made this thread once again dragged the conversation into the mud.

I am in favor of dumping Monty too, however the differing view has been defended several times. If I were advocating to keep Monty, I'd have to dump blame on Demps, which is their view. Monty, being a Poppovician disciple, has nothing resembling a Poppovich roster. He does not have a deep team with ball movers and help defenders. He doesn't have 3 point specialist that defend. He doesn't have an aggressive bench leader. He doesn't have an energy wing defender leading to transition points.

I personally believe his system is a mess and lacks the capacity for making adjustments, but the argument made above, and several times on the forum, is a fair argument.

[Bongzilla]

I have never seen any evidence that any of the listed coaches other than Popovich can outcoach each other reliably, let alone in a 7-game series. Of that list, only Popovich and Rivers have won a title, both with very deep teams with a minimum of three superstars. The other coaches mentioned have better depth at their disposal for sure, so they could beat Monty head to head without providing any indication which coach was better.
If you can't see improvement in several phases of the coaching game this year over last, then you have blinders on where Monty is concerned. It would be stupid to fire Monty unless AD requests a specific (and available) replacement. If that ever occurs, I hope it is behind the scenes.

So in year 5 we should be happy with small improvements?

Is it low standards or just complacency that you suffer from?

I should be happy that my 5 year coach is now finally making adjustments? After nearly 350 games.

Why do Pelicans fans have such low standards? NOEngineer - to you honestly believe that Monty Williams will ever win an NBA championship as a head coach? If you cannot say that you truly believe, then why keep him? The goal is to win games (.410 winning record)..which he has not done. The ultimate goal is to win championships, which frankly, I don't believe he has given even the most die-hard fan even the slightest glimpse that he can achieve this.

P.S. Phoenix had more injuries than us last year,(Bledsoe 1/2 year, Okafor entire year, Barbosa missed 60 games, Dragic, all missed games) (the Monty apologists #1 excuse)...................didn't stop their ROOKIE HEAD COACH from turning that team around immediately.