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God I hope Monty doesn't turns into Marvin Lewis here. The fair card (injuries,young team, ad best bf, etc.) Has to stop. The guy is getting paid to win games. Life is not fair, but you play the cards your dealt. Toronto coach is coaching his arse off and he wishes he had the talent we have. Same as for Phx, and heck even Milwaukee. Then the Hawks, etc. Like cmon guys Lol
CAW CAW!!!
-Founder and valuable member of the Caw Caw Boyz-
I feel like people do defend him to the death which is annoying. There are also people that blame everything on him which is a little unfair; the players are making boneheaded plays on their own. I honestly don't see him as the answer, but I can understand why some people were more hesitant to crucify him in years past (I personally think he has less leeway this year bc we have been more fortunate with health).Originally Posted by Silverfoxx
I think ultimately it is a 3 prong problem. Coaching, GM, Players.
At the GM level-
we have committed to trading away most of our assets and cap space for a handful of guys that has created gaping holes elsewhere and required more assets be given up to fill them. It is a dangerous way of re-building that requires very little room for error. Problem is Demps made those errors. First with Gordon, then IMO with Evans. I don't hate Evans but we gave up our back up PG our above average Center, a first rounder to replace that lost center and the opportunity cost of signing a SF for him. So you have a GM that in three years is stiltrying to scrape together a complete roster to put around Davis.
At the Coaching Level
We have a coach that as far as I understand it likes to have a very good, smart, defender at every critical line in order to function optimally. He runs a complicated defense that requires high IQ and he wants a good defender at the point of attack(the ball handler) a good defender that can cover the best scorer at the 2 or 3 and he wants a anchor at the Center that can play against the opposing teams best big man.
Demps has failed to provide him with 1 of his key needs and arguably one of the most pivotal in todays game which is a wing defender that can lock down the best 2 or 3 on the opposing team and play competently enough on offense to start.
But on Monty's end he has shown an inability to adapt optimally. Yes he has shown growth in areas like offense and taken small steps in almost every area you can name, but small steps when you are so far behind in some areas still leaves you lacking. The best coaches in the NBA either find a way through scheming, rotations, substitutions, and playacting to cover up their holes in the roster or they adapt a new system to maximize the strengths that a team has. The latter is something George Karl has been a master at doing over the years.
Monty also struggles with role player management. He consistently over the years has puts guys like Brian Roberts, Willie Green, John Salmons, Greg Stiemsma, Tyreke Evans, Trevor Ariza in roles they aren't suited for and given them a green light and little punishment for failure and elevates them over better alternatives for that particular role.
For a team that is so young and still growing in terms of their awareness and BBball IQ, Monty takes a very passive approach to coaching. You see guys like Thibodeaux or Karl calling out orders all game long and playing a very active role in the game. Monty takes a more conservative approach where he doesnt make nearly that many on-court adjustments or input. Something I think that could go a long way in helping our guys in key areas they struggle.
Monty also does a very poor job at taking advantage of mismatches and optimizing our talent on a game to game basis. This was first evident in his only playoff series but he hasn't gotten a whole lot better since then unfortunately. Take the Dallas game where Jrue started the quarter on JJ Barea and not once did Monty yell or call a play out to take advantage of that obvious mismatch. Jrue could of backed him down to the basket or just plan shot over him from anywhere but instead we took a bunch of lower percentage shots all quarter and Dallas was able to keep pace during a quarter they are usually dominated in. Or take last nights game where Thibs probed our defense all night and found Butler was the hot hand and the key to asserting the Bulls will. So he made sure Butler touched the ball every play in the fourth. Contrast that with Monty in the fourth who had Davis playing ungodly, clearly wanting to show off for his home town and Monty went 3 and 4 possessions without Davis even seeing the ball. All while he mostly sat on the bench watching passively.
And frankly at the end of the day I am just not a believer in his system or his ability to maximize players in it unless he has a very specific set of talent to execute it.
At the Player Level:
We have a bunch of guys that came from mostly losing organizations. Mix that with their youth and it is a recipe for inconsistency, selfish play, growing pains and IQ issues. Our players have to embrace the team concept and buy into their role. Coach needs to do a better job yelling at players to run plays, work the ball through certain players and play within themselves, but the players themselves have to buy into the concept just as much if not more.
Guys like Jrue need to give a more consistent effort on both sides of the ball. He has progressed well, yes. But in a game like last not where he was shooting so efficiently he needed to assert his will more. On the other side of the ball Jrue seems to take possessions and sometimes whole games off on defense.
Evans has to work on his decision making on both sides of the ball. It goes from good to abysmal and the drop of a hat and seems to get worse as the gameclock begins to run out in the fourth.
Overall our players just need to grow up and build better habits.
Pretty much sums up my thoughts atm. I've always said Monty should adapt to his personnel, but he has been rather inflexible with his scheme. When he had intelligent players on the roster (CP3 Ariza, Okafor), he built a solid reputation as a defensive minded coach.
As for Dell, I wonder if Benson played a part in some of the moves he made. It feels like they were really trying to rush the rebuild by trading away multiple first rounders and role players for players that were full of potential but not necessarily great fits for the team.
Jrue is for lack of a better term "lackadaisical" at times, and he tends to make careless errors often. Tyreke doesn't seem to have the court vision necessary to dominate possession as often as he does, and Gordon's lack of a reliable handle and the damage to his explosiveness from injuries have really prevented him from reaching his Clipper days.
I'm still puzzled as to why Monty wouldn't shift Cunningham to defense on Butler last night. DC shut down Dunleavy completely, but he was needed more on Butler, matching up far better in size and strength.
This is probably the most succinct single post you have put together around the issues we face as an organisation. often with how the threads and discussions have occurred, points are spread out across multiple discussions and it gets messy, and arguments occur over the finer points, or single factors in a vacuum, while missing the bigger picture. just wanted to say well done (genuine praise, hopefully no sarcasm, or looking down on you or any bull**** like that is read, as none is intended).
Since you've taken the time to clearly lay out your arguments, I'll put forth my take and possibly answer some of the questions you have raised here or elsewhere.
No one has ever challenged that in retrospect signing Gordon to his deal wasn't a bad move. I think everyone has acknowledged this. The argument some have said is that AT THE TIME there could be an argument made for signing him based off the few games he played where he appeared to still have his burst. I think his contract is the catalyst of a large majority of issues with our roster. It was clearly Dell's biggest mistake and one that handcuffed the team for later moves.
The Evans trade is far more debatable and one that I don't think was a mistake at all. At the time of the trade we still had Brian Roberts who was capable of easily playing back up PG but was thrust into a bad situation with the Jrue injury. We also had a developing Rivers. Not to mention a pick that ended up being Pierre Jackson. Our backcourt quiet frankly was full.
The argument for the Evans trade really comes down to Rolo vs. Reke. Even at the time Monty said that it was a very hard decision to trade Rolo and that he had far outplayed his contract or their expectations. But he was also only 1 year removed from coming off major injuries and he didn't fit with Monty's style of a defensive center. Evans was a risk but he also has the ability to take over and dominate games. We quiet simply went for an impact player. Keep in mind we weren't sure (still might not be) what position AD was going to play the majority of his minutes. It was a known fact he was still growing the first year in the league. Combine that with getting back a defensive minded Center in the trade (Withey) who was a development project, and still having Jason Smith, and the trade makes a lot of sense.
What we didn't expect was the injury bug to slap us in the face hard and for The Steamer to be complete and utter trash. Yet even still Dell was able to pull Ajinca out of thin air.
As far as losing another 1st for Asik 1) we haven't lost the pick yet. 2) he was the big defensive minded center that Monty always wanted. He was worth the value especially when we might not have to pay the cost for multiple years.
As far as losing out on other SFs go that is a very complex situation. We were basically needing to make a S&T to make it happen or possibly just straight lose players to fit Evans contract. The same would have been true of any SF we signed. So, who were the great SFs we missed out on? Going through the list of all the available SFs that summer I see 3 names that stand out. Kyle Korver, Matt Barnes, and Andre Iguodala. Korver doesn't fit with Monty's defense, Iggy got way over paid, and Barnes who doesn't fit into the "young vet" role at all. There simply wasn't a big impact SF available. Let's not forget that Reke was brought in having played the last season at SF. He also played a majority of his minutes at SF for us and was kinda great at it.
Overall. Dell has made 1 glaring error and even that one at the time could have been seen as an acceptable deal. He clearly wasn't the only GM to feel Gordon was worth that much. But I see no mention of Dell's ability to find bench players like Roberts, Ajinca, Cunningham, or his masterful working of the cap with how he got Asik here in a trade without giving up a single asset or how he got Ryno, or how Tyreke's contract is decreasing. Or heck, even him finding and signing Rolo.
I agree that Monty's full system is one that relies on players that understand the entire system. He relies on players switching often and knowing when and where to be. Where I disagree is in Monty's ability to adapt. Before the season started he mentioned in an interview that he had only implemented roughly 30% of his entire system. We also see this year he isn't hard hedging nearly as much as he was last year. On the offensive end its very hard to argue that he hasn't been effective in his scheme when the team is top 10 in points per game.At the Coaching Level
We have a coach that as far as I understand it likes to have a very good, smart, defender at every critical line in order to function optimally. He runs a complicated defense that requires high IQ and he wants a good defender at the point of attack(the ball handler) a good defender that can cover the best scorer at the 2 or 3 and he wants a anchor at the Center that can play against the opposing teams best big man.
Demps has failed to provide him with 1 of his key needs and arguably one of the most pivotal in todays game which is a wing defender that can lock down the best 2 or 3 on the opposing team and play competently enough on offense to start.
But on Monty's end he has shown an inability to adapt optimally. Yes he has shown growth in areas like offense and taken small steps in almost every area you can name, but small steps when you are so far behind in some areas still leaves you lacking. The best coaches in the NBA either find a way through scheming, rotations, substitutions, and playacting to cover up their holes in the roster or they adapt a new system to maximize the strengths that a team has. The latter is something George Karl has been a master at doing over the years.
Monty also struggles with role player management. He consistently over the years has puts guys like Brian Roberts, Willie Green, John Salmons, Greg Stiemsma, Tyreke Evans, Trevor Ariza in roles they aren't suited for and given them a green light and little punishment for failure and elevates them over better alternatives for that particular role.
For a team that is so young and still growing in terms of their awareness and BBball IQ, Monty takes a very passive approach to coaching. You see guys like Thibodeaux or Karl calling out orders all game long and playing a very active role in the game. Monty takes a more conservative approach where he doesnt make nearly that many on-court adjustments or input. Something I think that could go a long way in helping our guys in key areas they struggle.
Monty also does a very poor job at taking advantage of mismatches and optimizing our talent on a game to game basis. This was first evident in his only playoff series but he hasn't gotten a whole lot better since then unfortunately. Take the Dallas game where Jrue started the quarter on JJ Barea and not once did Monty yell or call a play out to take advantage of that obvious mismatch. Jrue could of backed him down to the basket or just plan shot over him from anywhere but instead we took a bunch of lower percentage shots all quarter and Dallas was able to keep pace during a quarter they are usually dominated in. Or take last nights game where Thibs probed our defense all night and found Butler was the hot hand and the key to asserting the Bulls will. So he made sure Butler touched the ball every play in the fourth. Contrast that with Monty in the fourth who had Davis playing ungodly, clearly wanting to show off for his home town and Monty went 3 and 4 possessions without Davis even seeing the ball. All while he mostly sat on the bench watching passively.
And frankly at the end of the day I am just not a believer in his system or his ability to maximize players in it unless he has a very specific set of talent to execute it.
You yourself acknowledge he has improved in nearly every single area. You then mention this is irrelevant because we are so far behind. But why are we so far behind? Is it because of Monty or because of having players who are young and haven't played together hardly at all? When you combine this with the HUGE amount of player turnover every year it's clear where the issues lie.
As far as the best coaches in the league being able to adapt and overcome, ok, to an extent that is true but look at even Pop this year. He hasn't been able to over come injuries. Nor was Thibs able to do it the previous 2 years (he was just fortunate to be in the Eastern conference). Even your coach of choice Karl has had trouble not being able to use the players he had and was fired because of low BBIQ players that couldn't "get" his system.
As far as Monty's ability to manage role players while I agree that has been an issue in the past it's also true that he was making due with what he had because of injuries. This year even with the injury to Gordon his rotations have been solid by and large. While there might be a few times I think he should make a move sooner this is far outweighed by him actually making the right call. It's also something that every team in the entire league deals with. Go read ANY team's forum and you will see the same complaints as Monty. Even the Spurs' forum has people questioning Pop on his rotation some games.
In regards to Monty's inability to take advantage of mismatches the examples you provide or interest but I have to ask, "How do you know he is not trying to use mismatches?" Are you at the games watching him or basing it simply off of TV? I. An tell you from 1st hand experience that TV doesn't show you anywhere near close to the full picture. I used to think Monty didn't talk to refs and would just sit on the bench and do nothing as well until last year I went to a game and specifically just watched Monty. What I saw was a guy who was very much involved and in the refs face without cursing and screaming. Yes, he has a calm demeanor but that does not mean he just sits there and doesn't call plays or get involved. It's quiet the opposite actually.
What I haven't seen mentioned is how Monty is great calling plays out of timeouts. I also haven't seen mentioned how Monty went big against OKC and won the game for us by doing that. What about him switching Davis onto Duncan after Asik was having trouble? Or how about later in the game when he put Ryno on Duncan and it worked? I see you mentioned Butler having a hot hand and Thibs going to him, but I don't see where you mention that Monty had Jrue on Rose and shut him down and then at the end of the 4th Monty even tried switching Jrue onto Butler to try and slow him down. There are countless numbers of times Monty has made adjustments, or called plays, or yelled at refs about bad calls, or called TOs and told the players to get back to the game plan. Or how about his player development? Batum, Belinelli, JSmith, Jarrett, even AD have shown clear signs of Monty's touch. These happen far more often than his few times of questionable decisions but here we are with multiple threads tearing him apart and pointing out every negative.
Your last paragraph clearly sums up exactly why you said what you said. YOU don't believe in him or his system. This appears to have tainted your overall view of Monty. Personally, I think Monty makes some mistakes and is still learning. I think he was very honest in his season wrap up interviews at the end of last season when he talked about learning how to play Tyreke, learning to talk with players and communicate his point to him.
I also think that I will trust Coach K. He clearly and obviously sees Potential in Monty which is why he has taken him under his wing and is using him for Team USA. If Monty was as awful as he is presented on this forum then I have no doubt Coach K wouldn't have wasted his time on him.
Is that to say I'm total against getting rid of him? No. But I'm far more inclined to give him leeway because as you have said yourself, he has shown improvement in every area and I just don't see a clear upgrade out there right now.
I agree almost completely on the players. I give the benefit of the doubt to Jrue because he is going hard on defense and I actually disagree with him taking possessions and even games off. I have rarely, to the point of not remembering ever, seen Jrue not hustle on defense nightly. I think this is the entire reason he has offensive lapses because he simply gives it all on defense.At the Player Level:
We have a bunch of guys that came from mostly losing organizations. Mix that with their youth and it is a recipe for inconsistency, selfish play, growing pains and IQ issues. Our players have to embrace the team concept and buy into their role. Coach needs to do a better job yelling at players to run plays, work the ball through certain players and play within themselves, but the players themselves have to buy into the concept just as much if not more.
Guys like Jrue need to give a more consistent effort on both sides of the ball. He has progressed well, yes. But in a game like last not where he was shooting so efficiently he needed to assert his will more. On the other side of the ball Jrue seems to take possessions and sometimes whole games off on defense.
Evans has to work on his decision making on both sides of the ball. It goes from good to abysmal and the drop of a hat and seems to get worse as the gameclock begins to run out in the fourth.
Overall our players just need to grow up and build better habits.
So, if I've defended Dell, and I've defended Monty, and I agree almost completely about the players. Where is the issue? The split I would give is 20% Dell, 20% Monty, 60% players.
The Gordon contract handcuffs this team but is almost over too. Dell has also been able to still make moves and get players. Monty makes mistakes and is still learning. He is a young coach. In a lot of ways he mirrors our players but just like our players I think he has potential as our players improve and we get a complete roster. Our players are simply young and need time. The "In the NO" podcast addresses this exact issue in the latest episode where they talk about our team effectively being the 2nd youngest team in the league because of the amount of minutes we give to young players.
I think injuries and youth have slowed down progression and are the main cause of our inconsistency. I have listened to multiple interviews with Monty where he says the same thing in addressing our issues. It is clear he sees the same problems we have and he is pounding home the message, but because of our youth and lack of minutes together it is slow and painful.
I am much less inclined to want to make moves because I think our players are showing sparks of potential and just need the required time to get there. I'm more concerned about what bringing in a new regime would do to our player development. Basically, as long as AD and Loomis is happy with how things are going then I am too for the time being.
This is TL : DR I'm aware but if you want answers or a rebuttal they are in here.
Great posts Bronco and Mythrol. Worthy of a bump. Would be great to see some responses/rebuttals to their takes.
January will tell if Monty is a good coach and whether or not we can play together consistently as a team.
do u mean jan 2015 what about the last 4 jan
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