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I didn't mean fighting literally I many that it is the position they are both best at.Originally Posted by Mythrol
And hayward can't shoot 3's???? He's been a sniper his whole career from 3, he had 1 down year, last year he shot 42% on 250 attempts lol, he is lethal from 3. Every player has down year, it's common, but to say he can't shoot the 3 is ludicrous, it's one of the best aspects of his game IMO.
I think part of this feeling about AD is skewing your ranking of him. You have literally spends hundreds of hours watching the Pels and breaking down tons of games and you have seen every flaw that AD has shown. I don't mean that in a negative way either. That's what we all want is a true breakdown of him.
I'm also positive if you broke down the Clippers and watched Blake as closely as you watched AD that you would find plenty of flaws on the defensive end with him as well. I also think you'd see a guy who was not as good on the offensive end.
I know I said I didn't want to waste my time on it but here I am. Lol.
AD either shot better or tied Blake from every range 3ft and out (excluding 3pt because neither shot well or had enough attempts). They both had nearly identical TS% and eFG%, AD is clearly the better rebounder, you could say Blake is just over 2x's the better passer, but you could also say AD is 5x's the better blocker, he also shoots FTs at a higher %, steals the ball more, fouls less, and turns over the ball less (by almost 50%) than Blake. All while having a lower usage. This is not even mentioning PER or WS/48. There is actually only one stat (assists) that clearly goes in Blake's favor.
Looking over everything the closest argument you could make is that they are at the same level but there is NOTHING that shows Blake played better than AD last year. I feel looking it over everything points far more to AD than Blake as having the better year.
This past year it was the position they were best at. Long term is it still that case? I personally don't feel that way.
The nicest thing you can say about Hayward's 3pt shooting is he is streaky. He's had two very good years and two bad/very bad years. But it's not just the shooting. He isn't a fit overall for us. He's a weak rebounder for a SF, is another guy that needs the ball in his hands, and is suspect on defense. Not to mention his high amount of turnovers or the fact that he's going to be hard to sign away from Utah especially if we move one of our best trade pieces in Ryno.
Yeah, him shooting 30% this year is a little offputting.
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Those with no stake in the matter disagree. Blake finished, what - 3rd or 4th in MVP voting? Was 2nd team All-NBA, only because LBJ and KD are forwards.
I know, here comes the - media doesn't know arguments. But that is the objective evidence we have of people who follow the game and they overwhelming saw Blake and Love as the superior player last year. I tend to agree. Though I do believe AD will surpass them and it could be as soon as next year. On top of that, Monty has listed to AD the power forwards who were better than him this summer and asked him to surpass them.
None of these things make it fact. Nothing we can ever say will make it fact. But it is in Pelicans fans best interest to argue for AD, while writers of other teams have no dog in the fight and they overwhelming chose one guy.
I think Davis is more talented, and has way more potential. But I can't argue he was more productive than Blake last year, either individual or in ways that help his team win. I mean, that Clippers team w/o CP3 and Reddick - how talented are they on paper? Yet, Blake stepped his game up and led them to a winning record when CP3 was out.
I can't do this anymore, I am getting sick talking good about Blake.
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So now I list you a ton of facts - quantifiable - after you asked for them and you just discredit them by saying the media disagrees with me without making any counter argument? Geez, you're a piece of work sometimes. Lol.
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And as I said, no numbers will ever prove any argument as a fact. It is an unproveable thing we are discussing here. All three of these guys have totally different roles on their team. Look no further than their usage rating. People are in awe of what AD did with such a low usage rating, but the argument can go the other way and perhaps the turnovers skyrocket and the FG% plummets if he is given the ball 20 times a game and asked to do something. I mean, he had like two moves last season. He is still incredibly raw. He couldn't even drive right or put the ball on the deck more than once without losing it.
Again, I love stats, but the stats don't tell you things like that. I have my opinion, and you have yours. Thats cool. I haven't been here trying to shove my opinion down throats. My main complaint was this perception that Blake is a product of CP3, when the evidence simply say that is not true. Aside from that, I don't care and I hope AD is the best PF in the league last year. But IMO, he was not last year. And those given the right to vote on it agreed, whether that means something or not.
It's not that the media doesn't know. It's that MVP and All NBA voting are historically tied to team record, which makes it a flawed barometer for comparing individual players. Love (2nd team) and Dragic (3rd team) were the only non-playoff guys who received attention in those two awards, and the Suns finished 48-34 (best record since Nash/Stat left) and the Wolves finished 40-42 (best record since 04-05, long before Garnett left).
If you switched AD and Griffin, and gave AD CP3+Doc+playoff berth and gave Griffin an injured roster+Monty+lottery, I think the MVP voting would look different.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. But award voting and Monty's motivational talk as "objective evidence" is not a great argument.
Didn't say it was great evidence, but its not nothing. I mean, to your point, Love was 2nd team All-NBA, no? A guy on a below .500 team who didn't make the playoffs. I don't think there is anything here outside of my eye test. I watched Blake in big games and felt that AD was just not at that level yet. I don't think he could have had the game Blake had in game 7 of the first round. I just do not think he is there yet. He is just scratching his surface, while Blake has more tools in his toolbox.
If AD adds the corner 3 (which Blake shot very well this year BTW) and the post game, plus the ability to put the ball on the deck multiple times, he will surpass him. But that is not who he was this year. He was a jump shooter who could drive left with one dribble.
The corner 3 accounted for 1.3% of Griffin's offense this season. Yes, Griffin has a much better post game than AD. However, AD is much better in the P&R, despite Griffin playing with arguably the best P&R PG in the game, and AD playing with Brian Roberts for most of the year. According to Synergy, AD scored 1.05 PPP overall this season, while Griffin scored 1.02 PPP. And that was with a HUGE advantage to Griffin in the post, so AD is making up the differential in other areas.
I've yet to see a compelling, objective argument that tells me Griffin is clearly the better player. Like I said a few posts ago, it appears to be a wash, with each guy having their skills in different areas.
Griffin was still winning and playing even better statically when Paul went down with the injury.
I don't see how it's an insult to Davis to say Griffin in his 5th year removed from two seasons of college is better than Davis in his 2nd year removed from 1 season in college.
I'm not saying it's an insult. I'm saying that it's unclear that Griffin actually had the better season this year.
It is unclear. Purely opinion. No way to prove it as fact.
I hope we all agree on that.
And this is why stats are good for prospective and very subjective in one-to-one comparisons. Clippers had so many more options and it's why they were the better team and had much greater team success.
I wonder if people would be so willing to include Ryno in a trade for Greg Monroe if Monroe were from anywhere else on the planet other than New Orleans. I seriously doubt it, especially since he'll want twice what Ryno is making.
When making a very declaritive statement like, "Blake Griffin was the best PF in the league last year" what other barometer do we have to able to have a quantifiable discussion on the Topic other than using every stat available?
I would think if it was as clear cut as people try to make it seem with BG that the stats would back up the eye test. They do not. In fact they say the exact opposite - that he was not the best PF in the league last year.
Like I said previously, there is only one area that Blake head and shoulders was better than AD - assists. Their games might be different in how they put the ball in the basket but AD was just as effecient if not more so (3ft and out) than Blake, all while rebounding better, blocking more shots, turning over the ball less (almost 50%), and fouling less.
Blake averaged 17 FGA a game, not 20. AD averaged 15. AD averaged just under 7 FTA a game. Blake averaged just over 8. There was no huge difference to indicate that AD would have some mythical drop off if he got the same amount of touches as Blake. Just the opposite. It shows he'd be just as efficient while better from the line.
Let's not forget that I'm not alone in this opinion either. Multiple media outlets have said AD was the best PF of 2013-2014. Dimemag.com had an article around the beginning of this year on just this subject BG vs. AD and came away with the same opinion as me. Hoopshabit.com rated the top 3 PF as LMA, Dirk, AD. One NBA.com writer listed AD as the no. 1 PF for 2013-2014. BG wasn't in the top 8. So yet again, this myth that BG is getting all of the talk about being the best pf isn't true. AD has already gotten plenty and as was already pointed out, this is while being on a losing team which can skewer perceptions.
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I think griffin gets all the talk from the biggest media (espn, nba.com and whatever else) which is usually what the average fan reads anyway (or looks at the images, in some cases). You won't find a whole lot of fans going to dimemag or hoopshabit.
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I'll Griffin one thing. I thought he'd always be a lousy shooter. But he has improved a lot. Still think he's a subpar defender. Only real edge he has on Davis is being heavier and stronger. Griffin has more experience, has a better feel for the game as of this point. But Davis is ahead of where Griffin was at the same stages in their careers. Griffin didn't complete a whole season until he was a year out of college.
They're a fun matchup to watch, to say the least.
I just love it. Have a debate with some guys on here with your opinion vs their stats and it means nothing unless there are numbers backing it. Now when roles are reversed I read reason after reason why now all sudden stats (proof) aren't end all be all in this case. Pure comedy folks.
Anytime you're arguing about the top 3 players at a position it becomes highly subjective.
Blake, AD, Love, Aldridge, and Dirk are all capable of being the best PF in the NBA in any given series or heads up match up.
Even if we labeled AD the consensus "best", how confident would you be that in any given 7 game series he'd outplay any of the other players in the top 5?? My guess is your confidence level would be somewhere between "meh" and "umm", and we're all homers.
...how's that for a statistical analysis!
I agree when talking about the future. However we have been discussing a very definitive period of time. The 2013-2014 season and judging just this one time period as who was the best.
If there is one person who ever said that stats meant everything, I would like to see that thread.
Any intelligent person knows that several factors go into player evaluation, with stats being one of those components.
Lazy people say stats lie and lazy people say stats tell the whole story. I havent seen many people on this board say either of those things.
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