You could fault the Pels for rushing to get players that took his playing time away from him just as much as him not coming out of college not that I disagree with it.
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You could fault the Pels for rushing to get players that took his playing time away from him just as much as him not coming out of college not that I disagree with it.
.......if healthyOriginally Posted by zakzak
@Jabberwalker
Nothing Rivers has shown me this year says he's a broken man. He is either tied or top of our team for having the most heart and fight in him. I haven't seen him give up once this year no matter how blown out the game was and at the end of the season he was rewarded by putting together a nice string of games.
Maybe the term "broken man" isn't the appropriate term, maybe the term "our new Sean Marks" should have been used. All heart, just that's it. He has take his game from the bottom of the out house, to right at the seat of the out house.
If you Jimmer it, they will come.
If I had to choose a ceiling for Rivers, I'd go with a poor man's Larry Hughes (or Hughes in his Cleveland years). He was also a lottery pick who struggled in his first two years, they both have good ball handling skills and a knack to attack the basket. Goran Dragic is another player who failed to deliver in his early years with some similar skills.
I'm still not ready to give up on this kid, I love his commitment in defense and his hard-working approach. With the improvement shown the last few month and with another good summer of work, he could be a good contributor for this team next year.
He's tied or top of our team for SHOWING he has heart and fight imo, you don't think davis, morrow, or reke have fight in them? I feel like people are cheering for this kid so badly they are blinded, spouting out the typical but he works so hard or he has the right attitude and drive, it is almost patronizing. Not saying you are, and I am rooting for him too, but people are putting such high expectations on him based off what? His assumed great work ethic and hustle? He was straight garbage last year, this year he looked better because he hustles on D and is quick on O but still struggles shooting from almost everywhere on the floor, and yet people are comparing him to the likes of Curry, Parker, and Crawford.
never assume
You read my comment. Repeated my comment. And still misunderstood my comment.
Like I said he's either tied or has the most heart and fight. The two people I would put next to him is AD and Morrow. That's why I said he was either tied or had the most. I can't assess something so figurative and determine who has more or less heart out of those 3.
All the rest of your comment can be taken up with other people. Ice said who I think Rivers ceiling is and it's none of those 3.
Heck I think people are missing an obvious comparison. Tyreke Evans. Rivers ceiling might be him with slightly less rebounding / assists but a better jump shooter. Both will take their guy off the dribble, even if in slightly different ways, and both have a great ability to draw fouls. They did shoot almost identical from 0-3ft this year.
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You misunderstood mine, while I could have worded it better. I don't think austin is tops or tied for tops in heart on our team, like you said it isn't exactly quantifiable. I think people look at his hustle and want to give him that title because they are rooting so hard for him but I look at his hustle as his only true positive, much like jason smith. If Rivers didn't hustle as much as he does then he would be straight liability and wouldnt play. For instance people were praising how he ended the season and his new midrange game or whatever, but for April he shot under 40%. I think it was the after the Houston loss people were talking about how his midrange game was looking much better and were talking about how that would be so good for him but he shot 8-24 that game, he still has a very long way to go.
I'm just trying to be a little more realistic with him, thats all, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you just adding my 2cents to the convo, thats all. I like the tyreke comparison btw, never thought of that. He never shoots that well but he did end the season on a pretty good rebounding and assisting stretch, similar numbers for april to Tyreke's numbers earlier in the season when he was struggling on offense
That makes a lot more sense. And I might even agree with you that Rivers has to play that hard and with that much heart to get PT. But to me, that doesn't change the fact that he does. There's plenty of bad players who don't. When you are discussing heart and fight, especially in the context it was brought up, talent is kinda irrelevant.
Rivers does have a ton to improve on. I think people are giving him the benefit of the doubt because of the jump he made and I'm not just talking about his improving in areas from awful to just subpar or average. He went from a slightly below average to a slightly above average 3pt shooter. His spot up shooting this year was 2nd best (by less than 1%) on the team. His ability to get to the rim and draw fouls is great (He's almost top 50 in the entire NBA in drawing fouls per36 for guys that played over 1000 minutes). He has also improved in every single stat column. He's cheered for because he's a hustler and a hard worker and a guy who doesn't get into trouble, yes. But people aren't just pulling stuff out of nowhere to say he will improve and he does have at least a few areas that he already pretty darn good at.
I think he's got a pretty high ceiling. Not alot of players have his quickness/handles, and he seems like a really hardworking guy who puts effort on D too. He just needs to become a stronger finisher and a better shooter, and he could also turn into a solid point guard
I still think Jeremy Lamb is better though
Well, when you compare between two players you have to factor in how much they played. Their per 36 shows that Manu is clearly better in almost all categories. The TOs I was talking about are the ones that reflects poor decision making. I know he is young and has time to learn. I definitely agree with UNO that he came too early from college. My bottom line is this: he will no way come close to the levels of Curry or MAnu, I would be glad if he becomes Jeff Teague, for example.
I'm just not sure how anyone can't see the huge improvement in rivers game. Once he gets stronger, he will be a force on that court. He's already flashing the step back mid range jumper that could make him lethal. He can get to the rim on anyone. He's finishing much better at the rim than last year. He has a very respectable spot up 3 ball. I'm sorry but I'm on the rivers wagon and I truly believe he will be a starter in this league whether that be in a 6th man role logging 30-35 min. Which I still consider that a starter as ginobli does. We shall see tho. Keep this thread alive and let's get back to it in 2016-17.
He has improved from woeful to almost average. I don't think the improvement since Year 1 is in dispute. He currently has some excellent qualities and other really poor ones by comparison to other second and third string NBA point guards (still top 1% in the world). If he stops improving he may stay in the league due to reputation and family ties, but he still won't be average. But, if his improvement trajectory continues for several more years he will be super awesome! With a sample size of one improvement step, it is hard to know how big his next steps will be and how many more of those steps he will take. That's why we have a nice debate.
Did Rivers improve? Yes
Is Rivers the next awsome player? No
If the NBA was a 100 story building, Rivers started out in the basement. Now he's moved up to the lobby. He is in no way anything more than an average NBA player (I'm being generous). It's hard to have an unbiased convo about this team's talent b/c we fall in love with our favorites. Rivers wouldn't get playing time on most teams. Especially the good ones. If we drafted Lamb instead of Rivers, there would probably be no Rivers fans on this site. People are in love with his mythical work ethic but at the end of the day you either got it or you don't. He doesn't. His ceiling is career role player. No all-star games, no MIP, no DPY, no MVP, and no 6th Man. He's not a starting caliber player.
The most overused words on Pelicansreport.com. Wrongly, I might add.
ELITE - (often used with a plural verb) the choice or best of anything considered collectively, as of a group or class of persons.
GREAT - notable; remarkable; exceptionally outstanding
These words should not be used lightly
Are you looking at career numbers or just the first year or two of Manu?
FG% is within 1% of each other. Austin shot slightly better 3pt but basically the same there. Average out their PT. Manu has 2 inches on Austin so I'd expect him to have better rebounding. Assists are within 1 of each other. Steals within .5. Nearly identical amount of FTAs. Then you factor in Manu was 5 years older his rookie year.
Also I think people are misunderstanding. I'm not saying he WILL be Manu. The way I read the OG was what is Austin's absolute max, peak, he could hit. I'm saying if everything falls right and he fully develops in every area, he could be Manu. I don't think Curry and Manu are in the same category.
So players don't improve based off of hard work? MJ was born the best? Kobe has played so long because of luck or good genes? No hard work is all you can control and this kid has that in him. He wants to be great so he should improve as long as he still has that determination. He has a ton to work on and I think he realizes that. He can be an excellent 6th man or good starter in 2 yrs based off of steady improvement from now till 2016. He feeds off of people doubting him. I am happy we have him on this team and think he is an asset.
For every Jamal Crawford or Manu that were terrible early and blossomed, there are hundreds that were terrible early and became role players or worse.
We might be giving him the benefit of the doubt because he is on our team. If he wasn't, I would love to see what people on this same board put for Rivers ceiling.
@mcnamara247
Exactly what I said MM. If he played for the Bucks, this thread wouldn't exist. His ceiling would be much lower in everyone's eyes
So now Rivers is MJ?
Ceiling IMO is quality 6th man.
Glad we have a Cleo in our fan base.
No but the point is this. I'm sure you probably knew Jordan was going to be half as good as he became after his first year right? I'm sure you projected him to be the goat right? Rivers is still raw as hell. He has improved and if his progression continues at that rate he can dam well be a jr smith type of player in 4-5 years in his prime. You swear that you KNOW what he will become. His advanced stats have improved across the board as follows.
Yr 1.....yr 2
43%. 48% TS%
40%. 44% FG%
13%. 18% AST%
1%. 2% STL%
14%. 12% TOV%
16%. 21% USG%---usage is up while improving on everything too says a lot.
89. 99 ORTG-----really nice jump here of 10 pts while the above^^ is happening is also a very good thing.
114. 113 DRTG----defense slightly improved as well and he is 1 of our better perimeter defenders already.
The point is he is improving across the board from year 1 to year 2 and you are projecting him to stay put where he is now. That's asinine IMO. His other advanced stats such as win shares and those things are very poor cause he's not in a position to affect the game that way just yet. He doesn't play a big enough role yet. You say well if he was on the bucks we wouldn't be having this discussion?? Gee ya think?? Lebron is on the heat do you see a thread on him?? No cause he isn't on our team. Also, we wouldn't be able to project rivers if he was on another team cause we probably aren't watching another teams every game to see the improvement and skills of said player. You know how many young kids have come into this league the way he did with high expectations? Was the hot ish at his school and had the kind of year he had in his first year and endure the criticism he did and wind up flaming out under the pressure??? ALOT. for him to bounce back the following year after all he endured in his first year says a lot about his will to win, to improve, and his character. He will continue to work hard and improve. Will he be an all star?? Probably not but to say he defiantly won't be any more than what he is now in the nba is just silly.
Oi!!!
Ok, you win. I wasn't going to post in this thread but I saw comparisons to Curry and TP, I couldn't resist. I concede. With his work ethic and attitude he destined for greatness. I just hope we can afford him when he becomes a free agent. He'll be a highly coveted FA in 2016-17
Don't worry. We have his Bird rights.
Thank goodness. Whew!! I was nervous for a second
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