Has anybody actually read the entirety of the article?
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Has anybody actually read the entirety of the article?
My guess is very few.Originally Posted by Kurgan
I love debate and expected a ton of it with this piece. But I wanted people to actually debate what I said in the article. Not what they assume I said or a recap of what someone else said that I said.
@mcnamara247
And Westbrook is another example that fits my scenario BTW. Highest 3-pt rate of his career by a good margin and lowest FG% at the rim in the last four years. First year in the last 4 he is under 60% in fact.
This idea that a respectable jumper magically opens up the lane and helps you finish at the rim, opens up other parts of your game, etc. is just something that is passed on from one person to another as an undeniable fact, but it just isn't necessarily true. As David Hume said, "People need to be woken from their dogmatic slumbers."
If you just take something for truth at face value, you are doing yourself a great disservice. Stop assuming what others tell you and look for yourself. Maybe I am wrong, maybe I am right on this when it comes to Tyreke. Who knows? But I am just glad some were awoken from the slumber and are at least questioning some dogmatic ideas.
Are you talking about this year? How much of that is Westbrook coming off of 3 knee surgeries. People talk about how Gordon lost so much after his knee injuries, I see no reason to believe that Rose, Rondo, or Westbrook wouldn't at least lose something too. Penny Hardaway is one of my all time favorites and look what injuries did to him.
No matter who I put on this list as an example, there will be some excuse. When I get some time, I will list ten more guys. If that's not enough, I guess I will list 20. After that, I will probably stop if it's not enough.
A better jumper does not guarantee that other things will open up and shots at rim will be easier. It does almost always guarantee that you will take more jumpers though.
Again, I am not definitely right here with regard to Tyreke. Who knows how it will play out - but there are possible dangers of going down that road. And a post game puts more pressure on the D IMO
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I don't necessarily disagree with the article that getting better at the jumper can have negative effects. However we can't just assume Evans will fall in love. If a guy can improve IMO that will always be a positive. I get you are ranking it based on priority, but I honestly I think improving at the rim and his jumper are equally important.
Naturally the better player get at something the more likely theyare to add it to
Westbrook, as well as Rondo in your article, are not good examples this year, you keep conveniently leaving out that those players are coming off major knee surgeries to join their teams mid/late season.
You say that the argument that the jumper opens up the lane for drives isn't always necessarily true, but so is your argument that he'll fall in love with it and/or take more jumpers as a random unintended consequence, and the only example you provide in the article for that which is comparable to Tyreke is Rondo, which was a bad comparison because like I said before you conveniently left out the fact that he only played 30 games this year coming off major knee injury.
Ok so I looked at some numbers, in 2012-13 Tyreke shot 34.11% of his shots from outside 10 feet, finished at the rim 64.1%. In 2011-12 Tyreke shot 34.44% of his shots outside 10 feet and finished at the rim at a 65.4% rate. Year before that he shot 43.51% of his shots outside 10 feet, finishing at the rim 62.4% of the time. THIS year he shot a career low 22.63% of his shots outside 10 feet, and finished at the rim a career low 54.4% of the time. His best/most efficient year as a pro, last year, 2012-13, also happened to be his best all around shooting year, going 33.1% from 3-10ft, 33.1% from 10-16ft, 33.9% from 16-3pt, and a career high 33.8% from 3, and he also had his second highest % at the rim at 64.1%. THIS year, his worst all around shooting year, he shot 35.8% from 3-10ft, 25.7% from 10-16ft, a career low 24.3% from 16-3pt, and 22.3% from three, and again, finished at the rim a career low 54.4% of the time.
It seems to me, that being able to shoot to open up lanes to the rim, in this case, is not just unsupported dogma.
never assume
You misunderstand. I couldn't care less if you listed 100 players. That is irrelevant to my argument as to why Tyreke should focus on something other than finishing at the rim. I was simply pointing out that the logical leap you are trying to make is weakened by using players that are coming off major injuries. I'm of the opinion he needs to take less shots at the rim if the only goal is he improve his FG% there.
Because AD does not have the handles that Tyreke does, so he cannot easily drive his way to the basket. He needs to draw his man out. Also, his percentages finishing at the rim are probably higher (I'm too lazy to do research..) already. He finishes above the rim.
That said, I want AD to shoot less long 2-point jumpers just like I want Smith to shoot less and all of our three-point shooters to shoot less of them. I want more shots at the rim and more 3-pointers. That's only because I like when we win....
AD only attempted 39.6% of his shots at the rim last year. That's a 7.3% decrease from his rookie year. Tyreke took 56.5% of his shots at the rim this year. That's a 9.6% increase for last year. Tyreke's efficiency dropped by 9.7% this season. AD's basically stayed the same (less than 1% difference). Like you said, if we like winning we should want AD around the rim more. If I'm writing an article about someone needing to finish around the rim more it's on AD, not Tyreke.
Like I said, I will come back with ten more who weren't injured. They won't matter either because of this reason or that, but I will do it anyway.
And yes there are examples where it opens it up but there are also examples where it does not. That is my point. It is not a universally true statement
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I do agree. Personally I think ADs shots at the rim will go back up next year. Defenses packed the lane this year and he settled more than he will have to because of that.
I expect that number to be closer to 42-45 percent next year. I expect a ton of lobs and easy put backs if the core 4 is on the court for 70+ games
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...ok....I thought the point was that, in your opinion, as in the title of your article, in tyreke's case it isn't true and he shouldn't work on his jumper as a #1 or even #2 priority. I didn't look up those numbers to prove that jumpers open up lanes, I did it to show that the jumper would benefit tyreke more than working on explosiveness or finishing at the rim. I could care less if you threw out a million examples, I thought we were talking about tyreke, and to me, his numbers clearly show that he finishes better at the rim when he shoots from outside more consistently and efficiently.
Can we move on to post game? Can anybody tell me why they think an improved jumper would help more than an improved post game? Because that one I cannot even play Devils Advocate on, especially when I see the makeup of this team.
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But magically, his at the rim numbers were good again when you took Aminu and Stiemsma off the court this year. So I don't think the jumper is necessary to open the lane. It is the personnel on the court that will help him not have to deal with 2 or 3 guys.
But let's move past this because nobody will give way. What do people think about post game vs improved J?
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Read it. Agree with it wholeheartedly. Also think he should develop a 3-ball for the sake of the team. I think if he hits at a 37% or more clip from 3, then other teams will have to respect him, and that opens up things for guys like Jrue and AD.
Reke + a post game = very exciting (especially if he is playing more guard and less SF)
Agree. I have watched all 8 playoff games and almost every game so far has featured a guard just killing a team in the post. Joe Johnson started it yesterday. Klay Thompson made the Clippers double when he was down there. Wade, of course. Wes Matthews is doing it right now. Devin Harris was working down there earlier today. Andre Miller can do it for Washington.
It is just such a huge advantage, especially when your four can make it rain from the perimeter like a guard. Would be so huge for this team.
Yep, and I believe it was last season when GS played the Spurs, and Harrison Barnes "went off." Everyone was calling Barnes a great young player, when really, all he was doing was posting up Tony Parker all game!
Monty wants to be able to post up his guards - has talked about it many times in interviews. Reke needs to work on that this off season for sure, and it should help his touch around the basket as well.
I just think about the top teams in the West over the next few years and if we have Jrue, Reke, (insert shooter), Ryno, and AD on the floor and Reke posts up against Jeremy Lamb, James Harden, Klay Thompson, JJ Reddick he has 15+ pounds and/or a huge foot speed advantage on those guys. No way they can single him. And if you double him down there with those weapons, the offense would be unreal.
I want the jumper, specifically the mid-range off the dribble and the 3-pt spot up, but I want the post up just a little bit more.
I'm not sure how often the offense would run through Reke in the post though. Monty has already said the offense will run through Ad. I know that doesn't mean every play as well; I just don't know how often we'd be able to take advantage of it with Reke in the starting lineup.
"I don't know if people know — I dislocated my pinkie finger. And [Tyreke] told me, 'You wanna go home or you wanna be here?' I want to be here. And he said, 'All right, then go tape it up and let's play. Let's go. We not stoppin' at no stores. Straight gas. That's what we do, just keep going.'"
http://thebasketbawlblog.com/
Mythrowl has been dead on with everything if you ask me. What would be the problem with Reke taking more jumpers anyway if it is improved? Numerous times I am begging for him to take the 3 but he has 0 confidence in that shot just like the defense. No doubt would a better shot open up the lane for him with players no being able to just camp and his guy being able to play off with no shot at a pass to AD in the paint. If Reke fixes his fadeaway and some other kinks in his form we could see a huge inprovement in his shot. Just makes no sense he should work on it less because he might shoot some more out of human nature. I would love for him to shoot it more and be more aggressive but also do what he is naturally best at and human nature will take over with him still driving to the rim. Compare him to Rondo but Reke with an improved 3 pointer slightly over the next few years would be a similar player to Harden and Ginobli. If it would benefit him more to work on other things and his shot less I guarantee Monty Dell and other coaches would see this also and have him on a different agenda. It really is just like saying AD should not work on his jump shot the most and Anderson mainly concentrating on 3 pointers while not adding much of a post of midrange game which I have seen neither of those arguments addressed. Finishing at the rim is something Reke will naturally progress at with more time in the system and having a healthy team around him that spreads the floor. His % at the rim this year has a lot to do with who he was on the floor with. Also having someone like Jrue returning and being a very good passer would benefit him and the team by Reke being able to hit the 3s at a higher rate because he will no doubt be left open a lot with players sagging off and helping others. He has to improve his shot for us to be a legit playoff contender more than his driving which will be at an elite level with a healthy team and a couple key additions.
The problem with taking a jumper instead of a shot at the rim is that a jumper is ALWAYS less efficient than a shot at the rim. I don't know if even the best shooters are near 50% on jumpers. Tyreke was converting way over 50% of his shots at the rim (if not 60% in other years?). I mean, if you're totally inefficient going to the rim then it's fine to settle for a jumper, but if you're absolutely unstoppable as reke is, why not getting that shot to fall at higher rates? Reke has been in the league for years and honestly i can't see him getting much better at shooting jump shots.
Because if you look at the years Tyreke was most efficient at the rim, they lineup with the years he took more jumpers. His two worst years for finishing at the rim were his two years that he had his highest amount of attempts at the rim.
There could be a jumper of factors but it appears Tyreke needs to take at least a few jumpers to get into a rhythm with finishing at the rim. Whether that is because people defend him differently or its all about confidence, I'm not sure.
Armed with the above knowledge when you then factor in that Tyreke has the most room to grow with his jumper ( or post up) then it makes far more sense for him to work on that as a priority. Also as has been mentioned his finishing at the rim could have been effected by who was on the floor with him. Meaning his % might be closer to last year than we think. I firmly believe that because of the players around him next year his at the rim FG% will be higher. Hence, no need to work on it as a priority. All the best BB players add things to their game.
No one is complaining AD added a jumper yet his jumper was over 20% less efficient than his at the rim %.
Another small thing - Lou Amundson dunked more times for us than Tyreke Evans and Eric Gordon COMBINED.
Manu freaking Ginobili would have lead our guards in dunks this year.
We have no explosion in the backcourt. Remember, I never said Tyreke shouldn't improve his jumper. I said it should be 3rd on the list. I would love to see him get his explosion back, would love to see him add a post game, and see him add a spot-up three pointer. I just want them in that order. I think Tyreke with that explosion he used to have would be unstoppable. Call it "getting into the best shape of his life", call it "added verticality and quick twitch abilities", whatever - but that would be my top priority. If he comes in next year in the best shape of his life and having added 2-3 inches of hops, and quicker hops at that, I think that would help him the most.
Then, a post up game would open this whole offense up. Then, a spot-up three. So, no - Nobody should "complain" if he added a jumper, and nobody would complain. I dont think anybody ever said that they would.
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Only person that dunks like talking about is Anthony Davis and Withey, though Withey has missed more dunks than he's made annoyingly.
Our whole team could use more above the rim athletes.
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